What's the densest thing in the Universe that's not a black hole?

24:16Every business has an ambition. PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with access to business loans so you can expand and hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. Your customers can pay all the ways they want today with PayPal, Venmo, Pay Later, and all major cards so you can focus on the future. When you need a partner trusted by millions, there's one platform for all business. PayPal Open. Grow today at PayPalOpen.com. Loan subject to approval in available locations. This is Jana Kramer from Wind Down with Jana Kramer. Hey, quick question for the parents listening right now.

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26:17Alright, Daniel. So, fusion is the rippling muscles of the universe pushing back against gravity. But what happens when you don't have fusion? Yeah, we talked about the collapse of stars. And you have these huge molecular clouds that collapse. But you get lots of different collapses, right? You get a cloud doesn't collapse just into one star, has lots of different stars at different masses. And sometimes you get stars whose mass is too small to raise the internal temperature to the level of fusion, right? So like below a red dwarf is something we call a brown dwarf. something that has less than 80 times the mass of Jupiter doesn't reach the internal temperature to begin fusion.

27:00And this is also true of like Jupiter itself or Earth, right? Earth is a big blob of stuff. It's hot at the core. It's not hot enough to fuse. And that's why planets can get denser than stars. Oh, and so does that have a bit to do with what the insides are made of and like whether it's good fusion material or not? or is it all just about like how fresh it gets and how hot that makes things? All of those things. What comes into play is what it's made out of and also its structural integrity, right? So we don't have fusion to protect the planet from collapsing into a black hole, but the earth is not collapsing into a black hole right now as far as we know.

27:38Why is that, right? Well, what's saving the earth is chemistry actually. So thank you to chemistry. Oh man, it's a dark day for you and me. I mean, we don't have to understand it, but we can be grateful for it. But, you know, all of those atoms on the inside of the Earth are resisting being collapsed by gravity. They have these forces between them, the Van der Waals forces and the electric repulsion, and they form bonds. And those things are still more powerful than gravity. But, yeah, the density of the planets depends on what they're made out of. And, again, the density is sort of counterintuitive.

28:11You'd be hard-pressed to guess, for example, Kelly, what do you think is the densest planet in the solar system? Jupiter. Although my - You sound so confident. Yeah, that's right. Well, you know, you just told me that the big suns are the least dense. And so now I'm wondering if something similar is happening with the planets, but I think probably not. So I'm going to say Jupiter. Wow. You double counterintuitive yourself. Oh, man. Wait, so Venus is like, has a lot of lead. Maybe it's Venus. Well, both directions are actually wrong. You might think I'm going to go for the biggest mass like Jupiter.

28:45but Jupiter has created a huge amount of gas, right? It's a massive planet because it gobbled a lot of gas. And in the early formation of the solar system, it's out beyond the snow line. And so it can accumulate not just rock and metal, but also ice. And so we don't have a perfect theory for how these giant planets form. But one of the leading theories is that they start from like a gravitational over density, like a mini version of a solar collapse. And then they grab the rest of the gas in the outer solar system. But because there's a lot of hydrogen there, It's not actually that dense. So then you think, well, what about in the inner solar system?

29:20Inner solar system, all the water is vaporized and all the gas is either gobbled by the sun or blown out by the sun's early radiation. And so you're left with things like iron and rock. And that's mostly what the earth is made out of, right? Iron and rock and all sorts of crazy, heavy, dense stuff like that. And mercury actually has the highest percentage of these heavy elements. It's like 85 % of the interior of Mercury is a metallic core compared to just 55 % for Earth. Mercury has like a very, very thin mantle. I think the lesson here is never go with Kelly's intuition. But Mercury is also not the densest planet in the solar system, right?

29:59The densest planet in the solar system is actually Earth. Because you have a balance here. In order to get density, you need gravity to make it dense. And so Mercury, though it has a lot of metal in it, doesn't have enough mass to compress the core to get to the same density that Earth has. And so you can take Mercury, for example, and add to it, add more stuff to it, and its radius grows, but also the pressure grows so it gets more collapsed, and so it becomes denser and denser. And there's actually sort of a maximum size to a rocky planet, which is about the radius of 10 ,000 kilometers, not much bigger than Earth.

30:34If you took Earth and you added a whole bunch more stuff to it, it wouldn't actually get much bigger. It would just get denser. Why? Because of gravity, right? It would just keep compressing it because the stuff inside the Earth does get compressed. It still resists gravity. It's not yet collapsing to a black hole. Eventually, that would happen if you added enough mass. But as you keep adding mass to the Earth, for example, it gets denser and denser and denser. And so in the solar system, the Earth is sort of at the extreme of all of these balancing factors. Oh, man. It's nice that for once Earth is special in some way.

31:07Once we got de-centered from the universe, that was a little bit of a bummer. But this is making me feel good. So Jupiter's density is just above that of water. Mercury is like 5.4 times that. And Earth just tops out Mercury at 5.5. Venus is close at 5.2. But Earth is definitely king of the solar system in terms of density. Yay, we are the densest. Woo! Hey, man, I'll take what I can get. Oh, wait, does that mean we've quit? Like we're not pushing back as much anymore? Does this, is this, no, never mind. Don't think too hard about it. It's not a sign of failure. It's a sign of success. Exactly.

31:44But planets are also not the densest things in the solar system. So stars, which are actively fusing, they have a lot of radiation pressure, keeps them from getting very dense. Planets, you can make them denser than stars, but if you make them too dense, they start to fuse. And then once we fuse, we start pushing back out again and density goes down again. Yeah, exactly. I've been listening. Exactly. But you could also play another game and say, well, I'm just going to wait for fusion to run out, right? What happens when fusion burns itself out? We've been talking about how stars have a certain lifetime and eventually fusion runs out because it relies on fuel and certain conditions.

32:20And I'm going to guess this is where our brilliant listeners come in. And is the next stage a neutron star? Not yet. Oh, man. Almost, right? We're not quite there yet, but think about the life cycle of our star. What's going to happen? Well, we have a fairly low mass star. It's going to burn and burn and burn, and it's burning mostly hydrogen, and it's accumulating helium at its core, but it's not hot enough to burn that helium. So that helium is just sort of like ash. It gets in the way of fusion. And so as the core builds up helium, the fusion gets pushed to the outside. So we have fusion instead of at the core.

32:55Now you have it in the middle and then in the outer layers. And so the star blows up to become a red giant as the fusion starts happening in its core. And this is why people say the star is going to absorb the Earth, because the radius of our sun is going to get enormous as the helium core heats up. But eventually, for a brief moment, the star will go across that threshold, be able to burn helium for like literally a minute. Oh, wow. And there'll be a helium flash where the helium fuses. And that'll blow out the star, and you'll be left with a nebula, like the outer edges of the star blown out.

33:26and at the core will be a remnant, which for our star is a white dwarf. And a white dwarf is just that core of unburnable stuff, leftover stuff from fusion, where the star was not massive enough to fuse it. So it's just sort of like unfusable fuel left over, but very hot and very dense. And that's a white dwarf. Oh my God. Okay. So I imagine that that one minute period that you were talking about where the helium is burning is going to differ depending on like what kind of star you're talking about. But still, I imagine there's a very narrow amount of time during which you could catch this happening.

34:00But that sounds amazing. Have we caught this on any of our telescopes? No, because unfortunately, it's mostly internal. The helium flash is absorbed by the star. And we've looked for these things on other stars, but we've never actually seen them because, again, it's mostly internal and absorbed. People are trying to study it by doing astroseismology, looking at periodic changes in a star's brightness to see if maybe something is happening internally or looking for other kinds of indirect evidence. But we've never directly seen a helium flash. So currently, it's still theoretical. Okay, but it's definitely awesome.

34:36Yeah, it's definitely awesome. And so what's left over in the White Dwarf depends on how big the star was. The bigger the star, the hotter the core, the more elements you confuse. and the biggest star can fuse all the way up to iron. Smaller stars like ours can only form things like carbon and oxygen, but that's what the white dwarf is going to be made out of. And these things are incredibly dense. They can have a mass of up to the mass of our sun. Our sun won't leave a white dwarf the mass of the sun because some of the mass is blown out. But bigger stars up to like eight times the mass of our sun can leave a white dwarf.

35:09And the core there is like the mass of our sun. And the radius is very small. It's only like 10 ,000 kilometers. And so these things are incredibly dense, density of like 10 to the 10 kilograms per cubic meters. Earlier, we were talking about like thousands of kilograms per cubic meters. This is like 10 billion kilograms per cubic meters, really incredibly dense. Holy cow. Okay. And the reason, even though it's so dense, it's not fusing because it's already burned up all of its fusion fuel. So fusion can't happen anymore. Yeah, exactly. It's not dense enough to have any more fusion. But if something comes along and leaks a little bit of mass to the white dwarf so it can compress further and overcome the quantum forces, then it does suddenly trigger fusion in the whole star and blow the thing up as a type 1a supernova.

35:56That's how type 1a supernovas are formed. What? That's awesome. Oh, I kind of wish I could see this stuff. I mean, I'd be dead, I know, but wow. Well, we can see them across the galaxy, which is why they're so powerful for telling us about the expansion of the universe. But the reason that the wife dwarf is stable, like you might ask, what's keeping this thing from collapsing into a black hole anyway? And it's not like the structural integrity of iron or carbon the way the Earth is, and it's not fusion the way a star is. It's something else called electron degeneracy pressure. Instead of thinking about this object as made of individual atoms, think about it like a metal.

36:33What happens in a metal is the electrons all sort of flow around and you have like electron energy levels across the metal, like conduction band, valence band, all that kind of stuff. Well, what's happening here is that the electrons, because they're fermions, they're the kind of particle where you can't have two of them in the same state. They can't collapse to low energy levels because those are occupied. And so the electrons are forced to stay in higher energy levels because they can't go down to those occupied levels. And that means they have higher energy, which means they're flying around, bouncing against stuff.

37:04And that's where electron degeneracy pressure comes from. People often write and ask me like, what is the poly exclusion principle? What force is acting on it? It's not one of the quantum forces. It's not electricity magnetism. It's not the weak force, not the strong force. What force are we talking about here? It's not any individual force. It's this quantum rule that prevents electrons from going to lower energy. So they have a higher energy. So they bounce off the stuff and apply pressure. Huh. Okay. And that's what keeps the white dwarf white dwarf-y. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing that prevents gravity from collapsing it into a black hole.

37:37Those electrons do not want to go down into that lower energy. So they keep having high energy and they push back in the same way that radiation pressure keeps a star from collapsing. Electron degeneracy pressure keeps a white dwarf from collapsing. All right. So I'm on the edge of my seat now because I know that at some point we have to get to neutron stars and I'm guessing we're going to get there through white dwarfs. And so maybe something goes wrong with electron degeneracy pressure. But let's go ahead and take a break and find out when we get back.

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40:58All right, Daniel, at the beginning of this episode, the Extraordinaries pointed out that neutron stars are very dense. And we've explained how you get to white dwarves and how electron degeneracy pressure keeps the white dwarf from collapsing even further into a black hole. How do we get to neutron stars? Yeah, so to get to neutron stars, you have to overcome this electron degeneracy pressure, which means either adding more mass to a white dwarf or just having more mass in the star initially. This leads to a type 2 supernova when that last moment of fusion in our star would have been a helium flash.

41:32But in a bigger star, that's a supernova, and it blows out the outer edges much more dramatically. And instead of getting a white dwarf at the core, you get a neutron star. And what happens here is that you've overcome the electron degeneracy pressure just by having more mass. And you've squeezed those electrons into the protons and made neutrons. This is inverse beta decay. Beta decay is when a neutron decays into an electron and a proton. This is like you squeeze an electron back into the proton and you form a neutron. And so that's what a neutron star is when you've, like, said, screw you electrons.

42:06I'm pushing you into those states. Holy cow. Eat it. All right, that's intense. So are there any electrons or protons left? Are they all smooshed into neutrons? There's probably not an equal number of them. Neutron star is mostly made of neutrons. There are going to be some protons in there as well and a few electrons, especially at the edge. We don't know exactly what's happening. And then at the core, we really don't understand. But these things are incredibly dense. They're still like one to three times the mass of the sun, but the radius is only 10 to 15 kilometers. The white dwarf's radius was like 10 ,000 kilometers.

42:39This thing has a radius of 10 kilometers. It's like the size of Los Angeles, right? And its density is 10 to the 17 kilograms per cubic meters. So like 10 million times the density of the white dwarf. Wow. Okay. But still somehow that's not enough to become a black hole. That's still not enough to become a black hole because at the core, quantum mechanics is still pushing back. And these neutrons are neutral electromagnetically, but they still have the strong force. And when you get at the core, even the neutrons themselves start to merge. And you don't just get individual neutrons to get pushed into something called like a quark gluon plasma or these other hypothetical states of matter, for example, nuclear pasta.

43:23Oh, I've been waiting all episode for us to get to the nuclear pasta. Okay, tell me about the gnocchi phase. How do you pronounce that? So if you have a few protons left over and you do the calculations of what happens when you compress neutrons really, really far, you get these weird blobs. So this is called the gnocchi phase. We have these semi-spherical blobs. And this is just what emerges from the calculations. You run your simulations and you get these blobs. But sometimes, instead, you get the spaghetti phase where you get long rods of neutrons form. Or they have a phase where there's like sheets of neutrons.

44:01They call it the lasagna phase. Because of course. Or another phase they call the anti-spaghetti phase, where you roll those sheets up back into rods. I feel like they're losing the plot there. So we don't know if this is what's actually happening inside the neutron star. But here, remember, neutrons are also fermions. So the polyexclusion principle applies to them as well. So even though they're neutral, they resist collapse because they don't want to be in the same state either. And so that's quantum mechanics like last ditch effort to avoid being turned into a black hole. But if you take a neutron star and you add more mass to it, or equivalently, if you started with a much bigger star, more than 40 times the mass of our sun, then when you have that supernova and then the collapse, you don't get a neutron star, you get a black hole.

44:48And I'm just trying to imagine, like, add more mass to it might mean that, like, dust from nearby gets sucked in or, like, a comet that's passing by gets sucked in and that adds a lot more mass. Is that how you get the mass? Maybe, but that's probably not going to be enough. I think more typically you'll have a binary star system and it'll absorb one of its neighbors. And so you see the systems where, like, one of them is a white dwarf or a neutron star and the other one is a still-burning puffy star and its partner is, like, slurping on it. You see those tendrils of gas. Space cannibalism. Exactly.

45:21Yay. We got there. Ding, ding, ding. Good job. But the question of this episode is, can you go beyond a neutron star? Is there something denser than a neutron star which can still resist the force of gravity? And what's the answer, Daniel? So we're trapped between a neutron star and a black hole. So let's put some numbers on it to make it concrete. And counterintuitively, also, the density of black holes is confusing. As black holes get more massive, their radius goes up, and so they're also not super dense. For example, a black hole the size of our solar system has the density of about water, but smaller black holes have a smaller radius.

45:59They're incredibly dense. So let's imagine our neutron star scenario. We have a mass of like two times the mass of the sun, a radius of 10 kilometers. That's a density of like 10 to the 18 kilograms per meters cubed. if you collapsed it to a black hole, would require squishing that 10-kilometer radius star down to about 6 kilometers. And that would make a density of 5 times the neutron star. So we're wondering if there's a place between the density of that neutron star and the 5 times density of a black hole where something can survive and not collapse gravitationally. So just to make sure that I'm understanding, so you said that some black holes could have the density of water, and we talked earlier about how our sun has the density of water.

46:41So does that mean that there are blue giants out there that are denser than some black holes? There are blue giants out there that are denser than some black holes, absolutely. Because a black hole that's super big is not very dense. And here we're defining density as the mass of the thing divided by the event horizon. We don't know inside the black hole how that mass is distributed, if there's a singularity of infinite density, if it's smoothly distributed, if there's weird quantum stuff happening, if there's black hole squid pasta. We have no idea. but we're just sort of assigning the average density of the black hole.

47:13Okay. All right. So we've got a range of densities and we're trying to figure out if there's anything between a neutron star and the least dense black hole. Well, between a neutron star and the black hole, it would eventually collapse into, which would be quite dense. And I chose a neutron star because the black hole it would collapse into would be quite small, six kilometers and very, very dense. And so we're wondering if there's a possibility in between. And so there's an Australian physicist, Hans Buchdahl, who thought about this stuff several decades ago. And he came up with this really clever calculation.

47:45And he proved this limit that said that nothing can be smaller than 12 % larger than the radius of a black hole. So if you have a certain mass, you can calculate what the black hole radius would be. For our case, for two times the mass of the sun, our neutron star with a radius 10 kilometers, The black hole radius is six kilometers. And he says that nothing can survive less than seven kilometers without collapsing into a black hole, but that in principle, it is possible. So he was thinking about it in terms of the radius of a black hole, which is the Schwarzschild radius. And for that given mass, he said that nothing can be smaller than a radius of nine eighths of the Schwarzschild radius.

48:24So like 12 % bigger than the Schwarzschild radius. If you get smaller than that, then you have to collapse into a black hole. But theoretically, it's possible to have an object that's like nine-eighths the radius of the Schwarzschild radius, which would not yet be a black hole. Okay, but like, my hat is smaller than that. And so by nothing, do you mean no celestial bodies? Well, your hat has a tiny mass. And so the Schwarzschild radius for your hat is very, very small. And Buchdahl is saying that your hat, in principle, could resist becoming a black hole by staying at nine eighths of the Schwarzschild radius of your hat.

49:03Oh, okay. All right. And so in the case of our neutron star, its Schwarzschild radius is six kilometers, and its Buchdahl radius is about seven kilometers. So Buchdahl did this cool calculation. And the way he got this number is he said, well, let me make some assumptions. Let me assume that pressure in the object is finite and that density increases monotonically from the inside to the outside. So you have this sort of simplified object. It's a perfect fluid with isotopic pressure. And in a Newtonian world where gravity is just like a force between two objects, there is no limit here on the density of an object.

49:38But in general relativity, pressure contributes to gravity. So as something gets denser, it has more pressure pushing out, actually gravitates also, increases the gravitational pull on the object. And so Bechdahl discovered this limit where the pressure essentially becomes infinite. So you can't have an object smaller than nine eighths of the Schwarz-Hild radius without that pressure blowing up and becoming infinite. And therefore, that thing would have to collapse into a black hole. It couldn't survive under those conditions. Okay, so Bechdahl did these calculations, and I'm guessing the implication here is that he found that there is an intermediate density that could exist between a black hole and a neutron star.

50:25Exactly. But have we ever seen that? We have not ever seen that, and this remains theoretical. It's fascinating to understand that there is a limit to the density, that there is a maximum possible density you can achieve before you get to a black hole. neutron stars do not achieve that density. And in order to achieve that density, you'd need some kind of force, which is capable of resisting gravity more powerfully than neutron degeneracy pressure. We don't know what that is, but in theory, if it did exist in the universe, it could create what they call a Buchdahl star, this object with a radius of nine eighths, the Schwarzschild radius, not yet a black hole, but something with a surface that you could actually land on that Kelly could swim in or stand on the surface of and try to lift her weights.

51:11But we've seen black holes in the universe, but we're not 100 % sure they actually are black holes. We see objects out there in the universe that are smaller and denser than neutron stars can be. And so people say, oh, well, therefore they must be black holes. And we see them gravitating and And we see things getting close to them so we can measure their radius. But our measurements are not precise enough to actually tell us whether these things are black holes or Buchdahl stars. Because we can't see the event horizon directly. We've observed the accretion disk. We've seen the indirect effects.

51:48But that's a very small difference between a Buchdahl star and a black hole. So in principle, some of the black holes we've seen could actually be Buchdahl stars. Okay, so what do we need to know to differentiate between those? We need a more precise measurement of the radius of these things. So for example, the black hole at the center of our galaxy, we don't know precisely what its event horizon radius is. We've seen stuff go near it and get sucked in. We've seen stuff go near it and not get sucked in that lets us measure it, but it's not precise enough to distinguish between a black hole or a Buchdahl star.

52:18What we really need is direct evidence of an event horizon. See something fall in and redshift and act the way you would expect something falling into a black hole to behave. I volunteer, Zach. That's so nice of you, really, just for the sake of science. Or the other direction you could go is you could think hypothetically about what these objects might be. What is capable of creating an object at that density or maintaining that density and resisting the black holes to collapse? And there's some ideas out there, fuzzballs or quark stars or weird hypothetical objects. We have earlier episodes about them if you want to learn more about them.

52:57And some of those have specific predictions that you could look for that differ from just like, hey, this is a very dense object. They're like short lifetimes or other weird predictions. So you could try to make predictions for what a theoretical object like this would look like that's different from a black hole and then look for those signatures. Wow. Okay. So where we are is we've definitely seen neutron stars. We suspect there's this intermediate thing. And maybe we've even been looking at the intermediate thing, these being the Mechdel stars. Every time I say it, I say it a little different.

53:27That's fine. He passed away 10 years ago, so you don't have to worry about it. All right. He's not going to call me on it. That's good. But so we might have already seen that kind of star and black holes, and maybe one day we'll be able to tell which is which. But at the moment, we can't. Yeah, that's right. We don't have direct evidence for the existence of black holes, which leaves the door open to wondering exactly what are these objects? Because the argument for black holes is essentially, there's nothing else we can think of that's this massive and this small. But that doesn't mean it's not out there.

53:57Amazing. All right, so time to get into science, kids, because there's a lot of problems left to solve. So the listeners were mostly right that the densest thing that's not a black hole that we have observed and have confirmation of is a neutron star. But in principle, there could be something denser in our universe. Way to go, Extraordinaries.

54:22Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We would love to hear from you. We really would. We want to know what questions you have about this extraordinary universe. We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions for future shows. If you contact us, we will get back to you. We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. Or you can find us on social media. We have accounts on X, Instagram, Blue Sky, and on all of those platforms, you can find us at D and K Universe. Don't be shy. Write to us. Here's the truth. You could literally be adored by everyone and then come home and still get completely ignored by your own cat.

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56:13This is Jana Kramer from Wind Down with Jana Kramer. Hey, quick question for the parents listening right now. When's the last time your kid asked for something and you actually felt good saying yes? Because lately, a lot of families have been hearing the same thing. Can I have Lingo Kids, please? And here's the thing. Lingo Kids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids with more than 4 ,000 interactive games, songs, and shows, astronauts, wild animals, superheroes, dinosaurs. It's literally everything kids love all in one place. So when they ask for it, you can actually feel good saying yes.

56:46Download Lingo Kids for free and start exploring today or unlock even more amazing content with Lingo Kids Plus. And if you go with the yearly plan, you can save up to 60%. Search Lingo Kids in the app store or Google Play. Lingo Kids, everything kids love. Organic Valley Protein Plus Ultra-Filtered Milk is pasture raised from cows that might take more steps than most people. That's a plus. And it has 50 % more protein and 50 % less sugar than regular milk. That's a big plus. And the fact that it didn't make a pun about moving, also a plus. Organic Valley protein plus ultra filtered milk. Protein plus pasture raised.

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