Reimagining Data for Impact — Indhira Mani, Chief Data Officer at Intact Insurance UK

0:00Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:So what keeps me busy is to reimagine how our people, our data, our tech and decisions come together to serve the strategic ambitions and goals of the organizations. And insurance is a risk business, but a risk business for our brokers and customers. So in order to serve them like the way we've never done business before, faster, but also smarter. It's getting the goods of the tradition, but fusing it with the innovation and serving it better than ever before.

0:38Indhira Mani:Welcome to Data and AI Mastery, the podcast where we bring you cutting edge insights, practical advice and inspiring stories from the leaders shaping the future of data and AI across the globe. I'm your host, Raul Gabriel-Urma, founder of Cambridge Spark, the leader in transformational data and AI upskilling, career development and progression. In each episode, I will be diving into real world case studies of companies harnessing the power of AI to drive innovation, reduce costs and create new business opportunities. So whether you are an aspiring data scientist, AI engineer or seasoned executive, this show is designed to give you the tools and knowledge to stay ahead in a world where data is transforming every aspect of business.

1:23Indhira Mani:Stay ahead, stay inspired, stay masterful. Welcome to Data and AI Mastery.

1:33Indhira Mani:Hello, hi Indy, how are you?

1:34Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:I'm very well, thank you. How are you Raoul?

1:37Indhira Mani:I'm doing great. I'm really looking forward to our conversation, Indi. You have such an interesting story to share.

1:48Indhira Mani:You're the Chief Data Officer now at Intact Insurance. So I'd love to ask you, and it's useful for others, what do you think prepared you to make the most out of this role?

1:59Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:I think years of my practice is not about having titles. And, you know, I've always said that I'm not precious about that. But what I really enjoy is what I accomplished through the role for the organization, how tangibly I bring, you know, options to the table, but also how I solve those problems creatively. So I just want some intellectual challenges, which I solve and I get soul satisfaction out of it. So I think that's what prepared me for this role.

2:32Indhira Mani:So what does the role involve? Like, can you describe to us, like, you know, what keeps you busy at the moment and what are you looking to achieve?

2:39Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:And so when I joined RSA or Intact Now as a chief data officer, my goal was just not to be the CDO, come modernize the data systems. And that's not how it was. So what keeps me busy is to reimagine how our people, our data, our tech and decisions come together to serve the strategic ambitions and goals of the organizations. And, you know, insurance is a risk business, but a risk business for our brokers and customers. so in order to serve them like the way we've never done business before faster but also smarter also that's that's what is the view it's it's getting the goods of the tradition but fusing it with the innovation and serving it better than ever before

3:37Indhira Mani:you mentioned that you know one of the first thing you had to think about is how do you modernize the environment can you talk us through like what are the challenges and you know setting up a team from scratch and like growing it and coming to more of a legacy organization how does

3:52Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:that work in practice personally um as i said to you whether i'm doing data whether i'm doing tech or business change or whatever it is right the the four most important thing is people people make business that's what we say in intact we'll make business people grow business we are a people business, right? So when I joined, as I said to you, it wasn't just about modernizing data, right? It was to reimagine the whole people, data, tech and decision ecosystem we have. We started with a business which is rich in data, but we were limited in silos. There are still legacy processes. We have like around tons of legacy application like any other organization and a traditional view of what data could do and achieve.

4:37Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:That's where we started. But then, you know we had to redefine that data was often like a back office function it was not a strategic lever or a driver for transformation the first thing is we didn't I didn't begin with technology we began with people we created a culture where every team from underwriting pricing claims we all came together as one team and became data curious we started like with an iterative approach where are the, where is the biggest impact for the organization is? We chose that. We said, I'm not going to build an ivory tower, right? Like, but I will look at the measurable impact for the business and I will start my data journey there.

5:19Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:And those are the use cases today. And those are the teams today, which became cross-functional squads. And we embedded like data translators from those teams and the business teams from those teams and the business teams and designed agile data products, not static reports, right? So it's not just a CDO team embarking on a data journey. It's a collective organization embarking on a data journey. And it's been tough, yes. Has it been sometimes painful, yes. Has it been rewarding, yes.

5:57Indhira Mani:Nice. Well, if I play this back then, it sounds like in this context of reimagination, And what I'm hearing is that maybe data was thought as a back office type of a function. And you came in and you thought, well, actually, you know, data is for every team. So let's really get, you know, the whole business engagement and kind of pull out the needs, the use cases and how you can drive, I guess, value forward. So what was the process to do that? Like, how did you get everyone together and, you know, ensure that they think about being data curious and, you know, you collaborate on use cases together?

6:33Indhira Mani:What did that look like in practice?

6:35Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:So as in practice, it's more about education and building those trust and human relationships, right? It does not come easy. It's more about like what each one of us have to, you know, have to contribute to the larger good. So I think what I really love about where I work today is they've gone in a journey very similar to us, but in a bit larger scale. and can I just say we have the world's fourth largest data and AI lab and intact and intact in Canada so they've gone on the journey right we are like in the eighth or ninth year of that so they know it's not a one-year 12-month 18-month program they know it's a continuous journey they have benefited from the data and AI capabilities they have grown and developed and that's a household name in Canada so they know that they know that they're And when you have such good sponsorship and leaders sitting in the UK and Europe who actually understand that that's the journey they want to go into, my life becomes much easier.

7:38Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:I don't think it has been very difficult. Has it been a bit emotional? Has it been like educating continuously? Has it been gaining that momentum? Yes. So it's more about top down, right? Right. When when your CEO commits, like often our CEO says data is the lifeblood around what this organization is evolving. That's his own words. So things like that actually makes it easier for you to go down into the organization where you feel like like, you know, data is not a thing. Somebody, some team owns, but it's for everyone. You're the data owner. We are just an enabler for you. So it's putting that power into somebody else's hand and developing that trust and building upon it and not saying like data.

8:26Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:We are a central data team, so you don't have a job in your business world. It's not power grabbing fight here. Right. It's more about let me help you to help me back.

8:36Indhira Mani:Yeah, that's that's great. And it sounds like it's super important to have that executive sponsorship. right you said the CEO you know it's kind of recognizing it's part of the the company's DNA and business model so that's kind of like driving the conversation so I really like that now earlier you said that this journey was you know there were some challenges there was a bit of pain and there's also some reward can you walk us through a little bit you know what an example of challenges you

9:04Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:faced and reward the challenge is always the cultural shift winning hearts and minds right It does not come easy. Imagine data is always, not just in the organization I am in, data has always been like in the ground floor and the business strategy is in the top floor. And when there are people in two different floors, they don't know how this household runs. So bringing them into the same floor is a tedious journey. And making those tangible outcomes visible is also tedious. Like, actually, what am I doing? I can do multiple data initiatives like data management, data platform building up, bring the cost clearest of tools and do all that.

9:51Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:But if you don't train them, if you don't educate them, if you don't bring them into the same line as yourself and actually bring those cross-functional collaboration and co-create things, I don't think we'll ever be successful. And that's hard, right? If I turn up on one particular day and saying, I'm the CDO, I'm going to tell you this, listen to me, nobody's going to do it, right? It takes effort. It takes true momentum. It takes persuasiveness. It takes hard work to show that, you know, I can do and deliver things. It's not easy, but it's deeply rewarding because once, you know, today from, you know, I had a conversation with my manager, the group CIO today.

10:33Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:you know, the fantastic journey we've had in the last two years as to like how we have grown from building data foundations to actually delivering value and now looking at a prosperous AI journey ahead. It's deeply rewarding to hear that from somebody like him who's actually data savvy, who knows what he's doing, who's one of those CIOs who are, who's doing a transformational journey, not just, you know, at one level, but multiple levels, business, tech and data. So it's very rewarding. It's absolutely rewarding.

11:07Indhira Mani:I can totally imagine that, you know, bringing people on the journey and from a cultural point of view, seeing the excitement and starting to, you know, use data to make, I guess, sound decisions, but also increase the, I guess, accuracy of risk management so on must be like really rewarding i hope you're enjoying today's conversation if you're finding the insights useful please do take a moment to subscribe to the data and air mastery podcast and leave us a review on apple podcast spotify or youtube every new follow helps us reach more people and shed incredible work being done by today's data and ai leader all right let's go back to the episode i guess i'm curious to hear you know as As part of your journey over the last couple of years, what were like early signs of not just cultural impact, but commercial impact that you saw throughout?

12:01Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:Cost efficiency, but also there is an advantage in the market we are creating through our data products, which we are producing through the central data function at Intact. it's all about having is creating those uh competitive advantage whilst carefully working on uh what is the operating ratio you know and reduction we are creating for the organization which is maximizing the efficiency whilst actually not just being in the defense but going in the offense right like okay what is the amount of risk which can which data can help you to allow you to take in terms of how you price, how you underwrite.

12:43Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:It's a simple business role, right? Like, you know, you know, you know how insurance industry works. It's like the more you submit, the more submission you get, the more you quote, the more you quote, the more you actually turn that into a policy. The more policies, the more premium, the more premiums, you know, the more profit, right? That's what we are embarking on. And that's what we are all working towards.

13:03Indhira Mani:I guess for your team, what does success look like, you know, fast forward a year's time?

13:09Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:Actually, this is very interesting. I asked the same question to my manager, the CIO, right? You know, what he told me actually resonates with me so, so well. basically he said if in one year's time if we can tell a data story so simple that the business will be able to say yeah i want more of that can you do more things for me right rather than saying oh i don't understand what do you mean by this data management what do you mean by like like ownership what do you mean by stewardship what does this tool do instead of that if people can understand the data story simply and can understand the benefits we are bringing to the table tangibly and that's making data simple.

13:51Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:That's success for me and the team in the next 12 months.

13:55Indhira Mani:Super clear. That's great. It's nice to think about it from an outcomes point of view rather than kind of internal complexity and technicalities, which often people don't have to appreciate anyway, right?

14:09Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:No, absolutely. It's not just Excel sheets and spreadsheets, right? Data is beyond that. Data is not building dashboard. More often, we actually put more data in the hands of underwriters, claims processors, pricing analysts than necessary. And then you are actually in a decision paralysis, right? Like, how am I going to make the decision? So having the right data at the right time with the right people in the right possible ways, you know, everything has to align for you to be able to make those, you know, informed decision making faster.

14:46Indhira Mani:And I guess, how do you balance this desire for simplicity, but also knowing that the insurance industry has a decent level of compliance and you need to have responsible governance? So one could argue that those are kind of like separate concerns, simplicity versus making sure that things are done the right way, which adds a bit of complexity. So how do you think about balancing those two views together?

15:11Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:To be honest, do I know everything? I don't. But what I should know as a chief data officer to maintain compliance against the data landscape, the way I look at it is very simple. I don't look at compliance and data goals as two separate things. I look at it as one item, right? It's one agenda. Making data perfect is not my aim. right make giving data or making data usable is my aim it's two different things right i'm not aiming perfection here i'm giving more usable data useful data and then doing it whilst complying to all the regulations but also ethical considerations is very important right because you're building data for future not for like tomorrow and just for this dashboard that's how I look at it I look at it for a long-term perspective I look at it as a future of how we are transforming the business and and that makes the game change and well and in the

16:18Indhira Mani:spirit of innovation uh what gets you excited at the moment like is there a particular trend in the industry that you're per se excited about that could meaningfully contribute to to the work that you do?

16:32Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:When I look at it, like how all those innovations, you know, today we have what, Gen AI, we have, we didn't have anything like that called five years back, right? We didn't have, we had AIs, we had machine learning, right? We had data science before that. So we are developing these terms, right? These are terms, but what in essence, I see that it's not just an artificial intelligence we are developing. We're developing a light for like, for a human brain, right? Like how we think, how we solve problems smartly, fastly, right? Without getting fatigue, right? Like, you know, without getting fatigue and tired.

17:08Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:That's all fantastic, right? But tomorrow's workforce is not all about like replacing me with an AI, right? Like it's all about like making me use AI better and smarter. So I'm kind of like interested in that. Like, you know, how can I use AI to achieve the same goals, but more smarter and faster rather than replacing actually me or my team with AI? So I look at it from an angle where AI and me want to do the same thing, but let me use AI to do that. So that's the trend which I'm looking at.

17:49Indhira Mani:India I'd love to ask you maybe a quick fire round of question and take in different directions so one is is there anything that you feel like contrarian about in the industry like something that you know you you feel strong against you don't need to scale everything before you actually

18:08Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:make what you want like it's data is not about like oh let me get everything everything in a central platform. No, it's about like, what do you actually really want? You don't need to be a superpower and ultimate control, right? Like, so I'm very contrary about it. Where you do, you need to federate, you can federate data, right? It's the best thing to do. You don't need to control every single data which runs in an organization. Not everything should be centralized. And it's the same, you know, it's all great to have self-serve analytics and everything, you know, but it's not about, it's not always about centralization of analytics as well, right like you know you need to know what you can and what you don't because you don't need to give power of all data to everybody around you need me I think you need to monitor who's using what and and as I said to you it leads to decision paralysis in a lot of time by giving more data actually to someone so so that's all my contrary view and I'm sure you know we are over hyping a lot of things like remediating data quality and everything but many people have spoken about it in the previous uh you know for me it's more about like you don't need to have like you know as a data office or a data person you don't need to control every single data in the organization you need to scale only what you have to scale your adoption is more important and the next question is um

19:29Indhira Mani:you know the world is moving so fast like like you said you know like new models new approaches how do you stay up to date as a leader like do you have like a support network do you read regularly like what what are the approaches you use personally i often don't get time to read

19:49Dr. Raoul-Gabriel Urma:a lot but i listen to a lot like podcasts are an example like i do listen to a lot of podcasts and quick video clips i love it but i do so i do a lot of peer-to-peer networking you know um i lead from behind but also I actually actively try to see what is going on who's doing what like and I try to learn because you can always learn from your peers better because they must have gone in the same road before you or they must have gone on a different road which is very similar to yours and they can tell you where to go where not to go so I try to learn from everybody I see be it my peer be somebody who's coming to an interview with me or somebody who's joining you're in my team it's it's that curiosity right like it that that takes you places be it data or anything you want to do in life i think i'm super super curious like i'm meeting you today raul right i'm learning that how calm and composed you are whilst actually throwing those actions questions to me so i'm learning that right like i'm you know tomorrow i might help