Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview

27:36These are the last images ever taken of Tylee. As for little JJ, less than a week later on September 14th, Lori and JJ went on an outing to a wildlife park called Bear World. And a few days after that, Lori's friend Melanie Gibb went to Idaho, where Lori had some shocking news. JJ had just become a zombie. The reason why I believe he became a zombie is that he was going to stop Chad and Lori from going forward. They didn't want anybody to stop them from being together, basically, and I think he was in the way. September 22nd, the very last photo of J.J., ready for bed in his red pajamas. That night, according to Lori's visitors, J.J.

28:27was acting up. Melanie Gibbs' husband, David Warwick, saw Alex take J.J. outside. A couple hours later, Alex brings back J.J. He walked in, he had J.J. on, he was asleep on him, and he carried him up to bed. By morning, J.J. was gone and never seen again. And just one week later... There was some crazy stuff that happened. I would hope that has nothing to do with this. It wasn't over yet.

29:10One thing everyone who's met Lori Vallow knows, the woman loves attention, and she is certainly getting it from all over the world. I hear stuff from my family that's like, oh, somebody does a blog about you every day or something. I'm like, how could they do a blog every day? It's been like five years. It's mind-blowing. It's mind-blowing. A lot happened. Mm-hmm. Tragedies. Tragedies in my life. So the media loves to take tragedies and turn them into crimes. Turn them into horrible things. And I had a lot of tragedies in a row, like a domino effect. Tragic dominoes? Or maybe, as investigators could see as they collected evidence, something far more intentional.

29:56Just three weeks after Tylee was last seen alive, And a week after J.J.'s disappearance, a frightened man called 911 in the Phoenix suburb of Gilbert, Arizona. Someone just shot my window. I was pouring in my house. The voice on the line belonged to this man, Brandon Boudreaux, at the time he was going through a nasty custody fight with his wife, Melanie Boudreaux, the niece of Lori Vallow and her brother Alex Cox. The police arrived quickly, captured the scene on body cam, and released this blurred video. Yeah, so I was just pulling in. I noticed a green Jeep Wrangler. They lifted their, like, back window.

30:38Brandon told the officers that the Jeep's back window opened. Somebody hunkered down where the Jeep's back seat should have been, stuck out a rifle where the missing spare tire should have been, and a bullet whizzed by Brandon's ear shattered the window of his car. Okay, so they shot, then what happened? It hit my window, and instead of turning in, it scared me really bad. And then, he said, the shooter took off. The Jeep was green or gray, said Brandon later, and had Texas plates. And what do you know, it didn't take long for police to identify it. The Jeep belonged to Tylee. Her now-deceased stepfather, Charles Vallow, bought it for her.

31:19And the guy driving the Jeep? Later, Brandon told the police it looked like Lori's brother. Remember, Alex had already killed his sister's husband, Charles, so was he trying to shoot his niece's estranged husband, too? There is some crazy stuff that happened. I would hope that has nothing to do with this. A lot of crazy in Brandon's life. His wife had run off to join Lori and Chad and Alex up in Rexford before launching a custody battle for the couple's four children. And as text messages have since revealed, Brandon was very much out of favor with Chad and Lori, who were condemning him as a gadianton, a criminal in Mormon lore.

31:58And then, weeks after a quick divorce, Melanie married a guy she had just met, named Ian. So what would Melanie and her new partner Ian tell us about the attempt on Brandon's life? They sat with us in the spring of 2020. Did you ask Alex if he tried to shoot Brandon? I did. And he made some jokes about it, and then we both talked about how insane that would be for him across the street with a rifle in broad daylight in a recognizable car. He denied it many times. That was hardly a surprise, but investigators thought this might be a pertinent point about Brandon on the attempt on his life. Charles' death hadn't paid off in insurance money the way it appeared Chad and Lori hoped it would, which probably meant they needed cash.

32:49and Brandon? There was the belief among them that he had a big life insurance policy. He made good money, he had a good job, so they knew that he had access to money. And then there was also this fascinating piece of evidence. On the day of the shooting, here was Lori on surveillance video at her rented storage unit, joined by the still very married Chad Daybell. Here, police watched them bring in a tire, just like the one that was missing from Tylee's Jeep when Brandon was shot at. And then they lugged in a folded back seat, which would have created space in the back of the Jeep for a shooter.

33:29On the way out, Chad gave Laurie a hand in a more intimate sort of way. And then the day after the shooting, Alex showed up at the same storage unit in Idaho. And as you can see, he carried out the tire Chad had put in the day before and then also carried out the folded back seat. And meanwhile, two days after the attempt on Brandon's life, as then-FBI agent Doug Hart learned when he combed through text messages, Lori was getting antsy. She and Chad had planned a real date, but had to cancel because... I mean, you've been to Rexburg, it's a small town, and Chad's, you know, the chances of him being spotted while on a real date with Lori are pretty significant.

34:16Tammy wouldn't like that. Then, the very next day... Chad sends a message to Lori, big news about Tammy. Tammy's been possessed by this entity, Viola. I don't know the timing for, quote, removal, but once it's been affirmed, I don't want to wait. Something would have to be done. Oh, and it would be.

34:57Everyone has a time when they live, and everyone has a time when they're going to go back home to heaven. I see. So it's kind of the idea of, like, you go off to college, learn a bunch of things, have experiences, that's what life is, and then you go home. As Lori sat and explained, it all seemed so benign, as if she were in a temple wearing robes instead of bright orange and blue handcuffs in a high-security jail. I'd almost forget what she was here for. Things like this. Fremont County Sheriff's Office. Hi, I need to report something. On October 9th, 2019, one week after police suspected Lori's brother Alex Cox tried to kill her nephew in suburban Phoenix.

35:43Um, someone just shot my window. And three months after Alex did kill Lori's husband, Charles. I got in a fight with my brother-in-law and I shot him in self-defense. A 911 call came in to an Idaho sheriff's office. Okay, what is your name? My name is Tammy Daybell. Tammy Daybell. calling on a cold autumn night to report that when she returned late that evening from a church event, a man with a gun confronted her outside the home she shared with Chad Daybell.

36:33my husband and then he took off running around the back of my house. Who was that masked man? The FBI ran a cell phone geolocation search which revealed that Alex was near and then his phone was shut off just at the time of the attempted shooting. He was, you know, had a rifle and was shooting at me, so, but nothing came out of the gun either. It was months later when Detective Ball sifted through Alex's digital trail and concluded that what Tammy Daybell thought was was a paintball gun was not that at all. That paintball gun incident, what was that really in your mind? I think that was attempted assassination of Tammy that was planned out by Lori, Chad, and Alex.

37:16And after the failed attempt, said investigators, Alex went on an internet search for AR-15 cold weather operation. So was it the cold weather that saved Tammy Daybell that time? Maybe. added to this, Tammy didn't park in her usual spot. And so when Tammy Daybell pulled in the driveway she normally didn't park in, it likely threw Alex off. He had to run further than he would have, and it could have shaken that gun. Thus, the gun misfired, or didn't fire at all. And she may have heard a pfft, like some sort of semi-pop, and thought that it was painful. Exactly. So, plan A having failed, apparently it was time for plan B.

38:02Ten days later. 911, where's your emergency? We just found my mom. She's on the ground frozen. Or, she's dead. I'm Chad, the husband. Um, she's clearly dead. So sorry. Chad and his son called to report that Tammy had died in her sleep.

38:30Later that morning, Chad notified Tammy's sister, Sam. I got a phone call from Chad. Telling me that she had passed away in her sleep. How do you process something like that? You don't. Because I had just seen her. And it just didn't feel... She was fine. It didn't feel real. It didn't feel right. What did Chad say happened? That she'd been sick and had a coughing fit and passed away. That was a really hard moment. Tammy was buried without delay in her hometown in Utah. There was no autopsy. Chad's choice, the sheriff said, because back then it just didn't seem suspicious. It was later when the story began to emerge that they exhumed Tammy's body.

39:20And the M.E. found bruises on her arms as if she were held down. And the cause of death was asphyxiation. Just what lead investigator Ball suspected. I don't think I'll ever forget that moment when he said, I had the results of Tammy's autopsy. They were ruling it a homicide. And, you know, we all knew it. And when looking for suspects, once again, detectives did not have to look far. When Tammy did die, did the evidence show that Alex was there? No, close by. It's my belief that Chad went and picked him up and brought him back to the house. And that the two of them did that together. And then Chad took him back to where his car was parked.

40:08But that was a two-person crime? I don't see how you could do it otherwise. Later at Chad's trial, experts testified it would have been difficult for one person to complete the task. That is, difficult for Alex without Chad's help. But sitting here with me, Lori simply dismissed all that. No foul play at all, she said. Perfectly innocent. Tammy died of natural causes. Tammy knows the truth. I love her and she loves me. We've been friends for eternities. Yes, and nowadays? Tammy comes to visit her in jail, said Lori. Anyway, the funerals weren't over. Another one coming soon. I remember a sense of relief.

40:59Like, okay, the guy who was in charge of this stuff is gone. But first, it was time for a wedding.

41:22You're going to have to break these questions down, Keith, and I'm going to have to answer them one at a time. Because I thought we were going to be friends. Well, I think we are, aren't we? I'm friends with everybody. I love everybody. I'm all about the love. We had raised the subject of love in our conversation with convicted killer Lori Vallow. Because, well, people do lie about love and death and what happened when. But what's the title of that old song, Facts Don't? So, facts are what we spoke of now. Our questions took us back to November 5th, 2019, exactly 17 days after Chad Daybell's wife Tammy was murdered in her own bed.

42:10There was a wedding. 3 ,000 miles away from Idaho, on the island of Kauai. The happy couple? Who else? Chad and Lori, now Daybell. What was the relationship with Chad all about, anyway? My husband? Your husband, yeah. My husband that I've been married to for five years? Yeah, sure. And everybody calls you Lori Vallow. Does that bother you? It doesn't bother me, but I'm Lori Daybell. It was often difficult to keep Lori on point. But on this subject, the wedding and preparations for it, she seemed willing to talk specifics. We had to ask because, again, facts. The evidence clearly shows that Lori searched for wedding dresses and rings and then bought a Malachite gemstone ring on October 2, 2019.

43:02The ring was delivered to her five days later, October 7. But there was a hitch. At the time, Chad's wife Tammy was as alive as a person can be and quite unaware of the fate that awaited her. She was murdered on October 19, two weeks after Lori's wedding ring was delivered. In journalistic terms, this would be called a gotcha. And you bought the wedding rings before. That is an untrue statement. You don't know what you're talking about on that one. It's online. The purchase is there. And then we see the video of those very rings on your fingers in that ceremony on the beach. Those rings were not initially bought for us.

43:44So get your facts straight, Keith, before you start making accusations. See, you don't know. Who were they bought for? You don't have any idea because you've heard all these rumors. You're going to tell me who they were bought for. Rumor has it. Who were they bought for, if not you? Alex and Zulema, initially. That's Lori's brother, Alex Cox, and the woman he would later marry, Zulema Pastinus. Lori's version? After buying the rings and dress for Zulema, Lori and Chad borrowed them. We used them in our ceremony, and then they were given back to Alex. The problem with that story? Well, investigators have many.

44:25First, former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Doug Hart, who examined tens of thousands of items from Lori's electronic devices. We certainly don't see any communications between Lori and Zulema, which we would have seen, saying, hey, I'm shopping for a dress for you, or I found this wonderful wedding ring for you. So that is conspicuously absent. Former lead detective Ron Ball. Come on, it's Lori trying to direct the details the way she wants them directed. Those rings were for her and Chad. So anyway, Chad and Lori, happy honeymooners after their island wedding and also formed with$30 ,000 richer, thanks to life insurance policies that paid upon Tammy's death, returned to Lori's apartment in Rexburg, Idaho, where, as it just so happened, police detective Ray Hermosillo had just received a call from Gilbert, Arizona.

45:22Detectives there were investigating an attempted murder. Okay, so they shot, then what happened? It hit my window. Remember? That shot was fired from a Jeep at Brandon Boudreaux, the estranged husband of Lori's niece. And the Jeep, detectives discovered, was registered to Charles Vallow, whose widow, Lori, records revealed, had moved from Arizona to Rexburg. So, what did they want you to do? They wanted me to do some intermittent surveillance, kind of watch the place. The place was Lori's apartment complex, where she and Chad and Alex and Lori's niece Melanie, a.k.a. Brandon's estranged wife, had all set up shop.

46:06While keeping watch, Detective Hermosillo read in on Alex Cox, who was suspected of trying to kill Brandon and who, a few months earlier, did kill Laurie's fourth husband, Charles Vallow. So what are you thinking about him at this point? He's kind of a dangerous dude, right? I might be dangerous anyway. At the same time, Hermosillo and his lieutenant, Ron Ball, started hearing even more chatter about Chad and Laurie. Like how Chad's first wife, Tammy, had suddenly died just a few weeks before. The common denominator in this whole thing is Lori. And it was at this point, when police from Arizona traveled to Idaho to seize that Jeep, that investigators started to focus on the question, where are the children?

46:54They asked about J.J. J.J., as in J.J. Vallow, Lori's seven-year-old autistic adopted son, who, along with his sister, Tylee, at this point had not been seen for weeks. What did they want to know about him? They just asked through our surveillance if we had seen a little boy outside playing outside the residence. And we told him we hadn't. He said, OK, well, his grandma hasn't seen him for a while. And I may need your assistance to go knock on Lori's door and see if JJ's with Lori. So on November 26th, 2019, the detective did just that. but at Lori's front door, there was no answer. We went around the back, and that's where I finally met Alex and Chad for the first time.

47:45What were they doing, just hanging outside the back door? They were unloading a pickup truck. I asked Alex where JJ was at. You know, he kind of looked over at Chad. Chad looked back at Alex, and then he said, I think he's with his grandma in Louisiana. The detective felt a weird vibe from Alex. What was he like? Nervous. Especially when I told him that that was unlikely because Grandma in Louisiana was the one that called in the welfare check. He gave me that thousand-yard stare. And based on his reaction, I knew there was probably something more going on. Something more, all right. The detective asked for Lori's phone number.

48:26Alex said he didn't have it. Come on. Yeah. So, did Chad have Lori's number? He said he didn't know Lori's number. He was married to her, but he didn't know her number. He didn't know that I knew he was married to her, right? Oh, no. Of course not. Yeah. I asked him again for her phone number, and he finally gave it to me. But at that point, I knew something was up, for sure. Perhaps few detectives in the history of law enforcement have ever been more right. Something was up, indeed. the looming collapse of Chad and Lori's House of Cards.

49:19I'm here to tell you the truth, and you don't even want to hear it. Of course I want to hear it. I don't think you do. But I want to hear the truth about all kinds of things. Time and again during our interview, Lori assured us that while others lie about her, she was telling us the absolute truth. I'm trying to give you the truth and you really don't want to hear it. So you want the truth that you already think you know. I'm the person it happened with. I'm the only one who knows the truth. And I'm trying to give it. But if you don't want to hear it, I will be happy to be quiet. Of course, it would have been easier to believe that were it not for all the lies she has told before.

49:58Like? Well, for example, this body cam video of very poor quality showing then-Detective Ron Ball and a colleague approaching Lori's apartment in Rexburg. This was just minutes after Detective Hermosillo had that strange encounter with Alex and Chad in the alley. Lori, I'm Lieutenant Ball from the Police Department. How are you? You got a meeting? This time, Lori answered the door, and, as if she had a choice, welcomed detectives inside. Sort of. From the start, Lori lied like a sidewalk when faced with questions about her seven-year-old adopted son.

50:42JJ was not, of course, with a friend. More on that in a minute. But as detectives asked more questions, Lori acted as if she had no clue what could possibly be attracting so much attention from law enforcement. What is all this? We're a little concerned. Well, the officers who were here earlier were checking, and they got involved by that something was going on here because nobody knew anything about a child they weren't talking. It's because a lot of stuff has gone on. If you want to know it's a lot of stuff. Well, that's why we're concerned because it just was kind of weird. It is very weird.

51:27I've had to move around a lot. One of my brothers is trying to kill me. Kill her for life insurance money, she said. Wasn't true, of course. Projection, perhaps? Lori herself, remember, tried to claim Charles' life insurance after Alex killed him. She went on, then, about why things appeared a bit dodgy. So I don't tell people the truth about where we are and what we're doing because of those reasons. So I look like a suspect, but I'm a good person. Then Detective Ball got the idea to ask her about those two guys in the alley. Who were they anyway? My brother and his friend, probably. We've been with me.

52:06Lori's brother, Alex, and a friend, Chad Daybell. At this point, we knew that they were married. She didn't want to get into much of a conversation about Chad for obvious reasons at this point. Before long, the detectives left. Okay, good night, you're here. And as soon as they did, Chad and Lori got busy. Calls were made. To Melanie Gibb in Arizona, for one. The friend Lori had just told police JJ was staying with. I get this phone call out of the blue. And Chad said, hey, Melanie, I just want to let you know that the Rexburg police are going to call. Don't pick up. How did he seem? Calm? No, no, nervous.

52:50As her head spun, there was a second call. Lori calls and says, hey, everything's fine. Oh, I told them that JJ was with you. It's like a bomb drops on you. What do you do? You just are in shock a little bit. Was that the moment this all changed for you? The bottom fell up? Oh, absolutely. I can't even begin to tell you how horrible that moment was for me. Were you betrayed by these people? Oh, yeah. They tried to use me as their way of escape. Melanie quickly got her head on straight, And when police called to verify Lori's story? She said that she had J.J. at one point, but he was back in Idaho with Lori.

53:28Right. At that point, did you think something bad had happened to J.J.? Not at that point. I knew something was up. At that point, we were bound and determined to find J.J. And the next morning, when police showed up again at Lori's apartment to execute a search warrant? We went over there and everybody was gone. There wasn't a soul in that place. There was furniture, food in the pantry, food in the fridge. It looked like they just pretty much walked out. You must certainly have hit a nerve with your questions. They just disappear afterwards. And I think that those questions that were there asking about the kids, absolutely.

54:09It triggered them to flee response, and they know that we're hot after them. What started as surveillance on a Jeep had certainly taken a turn. The chase was on.

54:34I've never spanked my children. I don't yell at my children. I only use love and logic with my children, right? I want to build them up. I want to help them because of what I learned in heaven. As Lori Vallow continued to explain the finer points of parenting, it was not lost on us that more than five years ago she had gone on the run when detectives asked her one simple question to which every parent of a seven-year-old child should have an answer. Where's your child? Where was J.J.? For that matter, where was his sister, 16-year-old Tylee? When Lori and Chad Daybell disappeared from their apartment in Rexburg, Idaho, that day in November 2019 and returned to Hawaii, did they understand how quickly the law would catch up to them?

55:24They couldn't have known, really, that within 24 hours, the FBI had been called in. The investigators would soon contact her son, Colby. I called her because I was freaking out. And I said, the two detectives are looking retiling at JJ. What is going on? She said, I got it. I'll take care of it. I love you. Have a great day, something like that. Detectives in Idaho entered JJ's name into a database of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Through our investigation up to that point, we learned nobody had seen Tylee either. So we also added Tylee to the missing person's report.

56:01And when they asked that great detective, the public, for help? Tonight, two Arizona kids are missing after vanishing without a trace. After going public, we started receiving tips on where Chad and Lori could be. And some of those tips came from Hawaii. Oh, enough to make you think that's where they are? We were able to confirm that through cell phone data. Okay. From Lori and Chad, yeah. But were the children with them? Were they being kept somewhere else? Detective Ray Hermosillo didn't know what to think. You kind of wondered in the back of your head, are these kids okay? Are they stored in a bunker somewhere for crazy religious beliefs?

56:48And then, in the middle of all those questions, a brand new shock. Okay, what is the emergency? Something happened to Lori's brother, Alex Cox, her angel of death. Something bad. He'd collapsed in an apartment in Gilbert, Arizona. Alex was rushed to a hospital, but it was no good. Later, police interviewed the woman Alex had married just two weeks before, Zulema Pastinas. I remember them taking us to the hospital, and I don't remember much of what happened between that and until the time that they brought me back to the room for me to turn off the machines. And I remember somebody came saying that I couldn't touch him anymore, that he was considered a crime scene, and that I needed to leave.

57:44It will surprise no one. There was considerable suspicion early on of foul play. I remember a sense of relief. Like, okay, the guy who was in charge of this stuff is gone. But then it was immediate with, now we have another body. It was so overwhelming, Keith. We didn't know what to think. And here is the designated killer, apparently killed, or at least dead. And you didn't know why at that point, right? Didn't know why at that point. But when the autopsy was done, the M.E. concluded that the death of Alex Cox was no crime at all. Alex Cox had been killed by blood clots in his lungs. He was 51 years old.

58:32I would have liked to have been able to arrest him and charge him for the crimes that he committed. I think he got out of this world too easy. Meanwhile, detectives and special agents decided enough was enough. They'd patiently worked the case for eight weeks. It was time to confront Lori and Chad in Hawaii. And it didn't take long for law enforcement to find them. Here they were, sitting by their hotel pool, on a warm, sunny day in January 2020.

59:06What they gave her was a court order demanding she produce J.J. and Tylee within five days. The next day, the police pulled them over, searched their car, seized their car, and thus forced them to walk a gauntlet of reporters back to their hotel. Reporters including our NBC News consultant, Nate Eaton. Did you do something to your children? Are your children still alive? Are you guys innocent of any crimes? Have you committed any crimes? But four weeks later, Lori still hadn't produced the children, and so she was arrested and flown back to Idaho. Welcome back, Lori. Where are your kids? All right.

59:53Her first court appearance filled the room, the hallways, the streets outside, with the curious citizens of Rexburg. Oh, no, no! But she still wouldn't answer the question, where are those kids? I remember walking out of the court at that time and talking with some guys. I'm like, these kids, they're not alive. We're now looking for bodies. Indeed, they were. Hundreds of agents and officers had been working the case in multiple states for months, combing through every electronic device ever attached to Lori, Chad, Alex, and the others. It had to be done manually. And in the end, the search for the children would come down to one unlikely text message containing one odd word.

1:00:45You can't do a keyword search. And if we did a keyword search, you know, raccoon certainly wouldn't have been a keyword that we were looking for.

1:01:07Tylee's very smart, very sassy. She knows how to push your buttons. She knows what to say. Gotcha. I was able to be very peaceful with Tylee. I was able to be patient with Tylee because I watched her suffer so much. All right. Okay. And I knew she was not going to live forever. Because you know that you can die of pancreatitis any time you have it. Of course, yes. As I listened patiently to Lori Vallow's long and winding discourse about her daughter Tylee, my mind kept going to those strange days in the spring of 2020 when details emerged about the search for Tylee and JJ. Over the previous six months, thousands of man hours had gone into the investigation.

1:01:50Searches of Google, Amazon, Facebook accounts, phone calls, text messages, geolocations for Lori, Chad, and Alex. Just to give you an idea, one of the phones had 54 ,000 text messages in it. Wow. Yeah, so it's days and weeks and months of just hard, detailed, investigative work. And all that work painted a picture confirming the September 8, 2019 trip to Yellowstone and revealing that Tylee must have been killed when they returned home that very night. We have geolocation that Alex was in Lori's residence the night we believe Tylee was killed. Early morning hours. And then a sharp-eyed FBI analyst found the text that broke the case.

1:02:42It was sent later that same morning, 10.53 a.m., from Chad to his wife Tammy. It read, quote,

1:03:19message did for us is that it represented a communication from Chad Daybell to his wife, Tammy, to explain why he was burning and digging on the property on that date. When in fact investigators felt sure they'd been burning and burying Tylee. And ultimately were able to piece all of these critical things together into an affidavit and and seek a search warrant for the property. The date was June 9, 2020, nine months since the kids disappeared. Ron Ball, Ray Hermosillo, and their teams drove out to Chad's property, a nearly four-acre lot a few miles from Rexburg. They woke up Chad and served him with a search warrant.

1:04:11And I said, you know what? We're going to see if these kids are here. based on his expression when he's sitting there reading that search warrant. There's going to be some type of change of behavior. Was there? No. And I just remember looking at Ron like, are we in the wrong spot again? The detective may have felt differently if he'd heard the tension in Chad's voice when Lori called him from jail that same morning. Hi, Dad. Hello. Are you okay? So they're searching for me. Chad was right to be worried. The FBI's evidence response team zeroed in on two places where Alex's cell phone spent time, hours after Tylee and JJ disappeared.

1:05:04Under a tree, searchers soon found ground that had clearly been disturbed. There was about maybe a 4x2 section that didn't fit. Evidence text removed a layer of white rocks. There were some boards underneath the white rocks. And as soon as those boards were removed, you could see the difference in soil. And you could see a round piece of plastic. And then they cut into that black plastic, and then you could see brown human hair. That whole experience had to be just, I mean, that lives with you even now, doesn't it? Absolutely. It was, of course, the body of 7-year-old J.J. Vallow, still dressed in the red pajamas he was last seen in.

1:05:53A plastic bag over his head, duct tape over his mouth. The M.E. said he'd been asphyxiated. That was a very emotional moment. Did a number on you. Yeah, those aren't, those are memories that, you know, don't go away. They found Tylee 25 or 30 yards away. It was Tylee who was burned, her body dismembered. Chad, who'd been watching all this, suddenly got in his car, started driving away. So they got chased him down the road just a little ways, and he pulled over, and they went and pulled him out of the car and detained him. There he is! So I asked, do you want me to tell your kids anything? And he says, no, I already told them I'd probably be going to jail today.

1:06:43I went, oh, well, you're right. They put Chad and Lori in separate jails and gave them separate trials. Chad for three counts of murder, for killing Tammy, J.J. and Tylee, and for several counts of conspiracy to murder and insurance fraud. Lori faced two counts of first-degree murder, J.J. and Tylee, conspiracy to murder Tammy, and grand theft. Madison County Prosecuting Attorney Rob Wood. Our theme was, this is about money, sex, and power. There were all these tangential religious issues, but it really was about money and sex and trying to control people. People who were in the way that they called obstacles, they got rid of them and profited from that.

1:07:32The defendant would please rise. Both Chad and Lori were convicted on all counts. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. How involved do you think Lori was in the deaths of her own children? I think the evidence suggests she was involved at some level. J.J.'s body showed signs of a struggle. And looking at how he was found, I think it suggests that more than one person was involved. And entirely, you know, I would tend to think it was probably a two-person thing. The jury sentenced Chad Daybell to death. The defendant would be sentenced to death on those counts. And Lori? Jesus knows me. And Jesus understands me.

1:08:22Before her sentencing to life imprisonment, she said something rather curious. Accidental deaths happen. Suicides happen. Fatal side effects from medications happen. What on earth was she talking about? Her surviving son wanted to know. And so did we.

1:08:59When we met with Lori Valladabell in jail, we were given 90 minutes to speak to her. 90 minutes, no more. She seemed determined to fill the time with tales about Tylee. She claimed that giving birth to Tylee actually killed her, briefly, sent them both straight to heaven, before Jesus asked her to return to life on earth. When I saw Tylee in heaven, before she was born, she knew she was going to come have all these difficult things, and she was still giddy with excitement about coming to earth and fulfilling her mission. Meanwhile, Lori dodged questions about the wreckage in her own life We have Tylee, we have JJ We have Chad's wife We have the attempted murder on Brandon We have, you know, there's a lot of mayhem There's a lot to my life There's a lot to my life If you want to hear the actual explanations, I'm here But it doesn't sound like you really want a lot of the actual explanations I do, I do, I do, but I just don't have all week to hear all these explanations Well, it's going to take a long time, so it's probably going to take more than one session.

1:10:07Uh-huh. That, the sheriff's office told us, was not a possibility. This visit with Lori, they said, was a one-time thing.

1:10:20It turned out, by the way, that we weren't the only ones searching for answers from Lori. And perhaps no one on earth has been more affected by her crimes than this man, her son, Colby. I've been working in therapy on unpacking a lifetime worth of stuff. I mean, it's an ongoing process. In the past half decade, Colby has lost his brother, his sister, his stepfather Charles, the most stable male figure in his life, his uncle Alex, and of course, his imprisoned mother. How did it change the way you view the world? I guess I always was like a very positive, see the best in people kind of person. And then I watched someone that I knew my entire life, you know, do what she did.

1:11:11And it just changed the way I view people. And all the craziness and death. There's just no way to explain to anybody what it's like to go from, you know, let's call it normal life to something this big happening. And then I have to deal with the complexity that that's my mom, you know, that's someone that I don't even recognize anymore. You know, there's a microscope on your life, too. Yeah. Do you get the feeling of being watched as you progress through life? Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the thing I think I finally somewhat embraced is people are going to have questions. Welcome to the Scar Wars podcast.

1:11:59And so, Colby has decided to use his YouTube channel, he calls it Scar Wars, to help with his own healing. Colby, who hadn't spoken to his mom in more than four years, began to worry about this. I thought, well, what if she passes away, right? And I think asking myself that question kind of brought me to a point of, you know what, if I ask her for an interview, maybe I can at least keep myself emotionally in check while I ask the biggest questions I've always had. You sound good to me. I don't know if you can hear me very well. Yeah, I can hear you pretty good. And so Lori called Colby from jail and it gave him the chance to ask her how Tylee and JJ really died.

1:12:50I wanted to talk to you so I could hear your questions and answer your questions because you are the only person besides me on this whole earth who really loved both of them the way that I did. But then, Lori spun a story, which investigators have told us simply could not have happened, based on the evidence. It was evening, she told Colby, and she asked Tylee to put JJ to bed. What if Tylee holding JJ down for too long, trying to get him to not scream and be loud in the apartment, which she was always upset about. And what if she held him down too long and realized afterwards what she had done?

1:13:35Her implication was perfectly obvious. Tylee smothered J.J., saw he was dead, and then took her own life in a fit of remorse. It was hours later, said Lori, when she walked in and found their two bodies. Quite a story. Colby was not having it. You're telling me Tylee took JJ's life, then took her own life, and then someone cremated her by dismembering her and burning her and throwing her in a pet cemetery, and then somebody bound JJ, put him in a trash bag, and threw him in the backyard. And that was it. What I'm saying is I wasn't aware what happened to them after I left that scene. You're saying someone else took care of the situation?

1:14:24Okay. Someone else? Could only mean Alex and or Chad. And somehow it's all Tylee's fault. Yeah, it must be nice and easy to blame my dead little sister for everything. It must be really convenient for her. Did you believe any of that stuff? Absolutely not. All BS. That's all lies. None of it ever added up. And so Colby made the decision to tell his mom his truth. This situation does put us at odds And I can't sit here and say that I agree with you I don't I can't even really understand Where this side's coming from I don't wish pain or anything on you I have no malice towards you Zero And I do 100 % forgive you I forgive you But you and I can't even be a part of each other's lives Because I don't feel like I know you anymore This is my mission, and my mission will be revealed to everybody at some point, including you.

1:15:30And at that time, I just want you to know, I'm not going to say I told you so. I'm just going to say I love you. And after, Colby spoke directly to his viewers. My sister did not kill my brother. She didn't. She didn't. put it on her. It's so unfair.

1:16:00It's so unfair to Tylee. She would never do that. You're asking me questions. Did she understand what she was doing to her only surviving son? Would she finally face up to what she did to the others? Were you there the night that Tylee died? Were you there the night that J.J. died?

1:16:37Attitude. Is that not what you wanted to hear? Attitude here. You're calling me a babbler? And here. Do you want to take a break? As we neared the end of our jailhouse interview with Lori Vallow, I was struck by the contrast. I think that's kind of the place I'm at now. It's just acceptance. Just full acceptance of the situation. Son, Colby, reflective, anguished, a serious man. The way that my sister was treated was with hate. That's not even human to do what they did to her after. And Lori? Not quite sure what this was. You want to go on later and say, Lori told me this in your ominous voice, but really this is what happened.

1:17:24Are you going to do that to me, Keith? Ominous voice? Yeah. Maybe that one. Yes. That's the exact voice that I'm talking about. Lori danced. Verbally, that is. Danced away from questions she seemed determined to avoid. She tried to fill our allotted 90 minutes with a long and rambling story about Tylee, clearly leading up to the same one she told son, Colby. Well, we tried to finally pin her down on the established facts that had convicted her of multiple counts of murder. Why did Chad label your children dark and then, you know, call them zombies? You're saying that didn't happen? Did you hear him say that?

1:18:10Well, no, but others did. I didn't. Oh, I see. I see. But that would be a pattern, that he would label people dark, and then they would either die or somebody would have an attempt on their life. No, that's the narrative that you've been running. The evidence shows that Tylee was killed the night they returned from Yellowstone, September 8, 2019, and J.J. was killed 14 days later. No, that's not accurate. Sorry, it's not the truth. You asked me for the truth. You're asking me personally. The only person on the earth who really knows. And you're shaking your head no like that didn't happen. Did I shake my head?

1:18:54Yeah, you're shaking your head. A little bit. No, I'm just looking at you.

1:19:01The evidence presented at Lori's Idaho murder trial left her jury in no doubt whatsoever. I'm quoting what the court said about you and Chad. Go ahead and quote it. You actually conspired to kill these people. Were you there when... I was falsely accused. I was falsely convicted. Let me ask you directly. And I will be exonerated. All right, fine. Were you there the night that Tylee died? Were you there the night that JJ died? Was I where? Was Alex in these places when they died? In the place where they died, were you there? What place was that? Did you watch... What place was that? Did... Do you have any idea?

1:19:39I'm asking. Well, I'm the only one that knows. Do you know? You're pretending like you know. It doesn't matter. I'm not pretending I know. I'm asking you a question. Did you watch your children die? That's a really sad question. It's a terrible question, and it's one I hate to have to ask, but, I mean, we've been talking about all of these... I was not there, as you know. I told Colby. His response, remember? Did you believe any of that stuff? Absolutely not. But for Lori, it's as if the evidence, the trial, the conviction don't exist at all. You did not kill a soul. Absolutely not. You didn't participate in killing a soul.

1:20:18No. You didn't conspire to kill a soul. Correct. You didn't do any of those things you've been convicted of doing. Correct. What to make of Lori. Soon she will have to enter a whole new world. Not heaven, but her upcoming trial. I have two motions that I'd like to file at the court today. All right. She will be representing herself as she has tried for the murder of her husband, Charles. She's pleaded not guilty. And not guilty of conspiring to murder her nephew, Brandon. What's it like acting as your own lawyer? It's great, actually. It's a difficult thing to do. You have to have your arguments, you know?

1:20:58I think this judge in particular has been pretty patient in letting people get their whole argument out. I can see where he might need to be. Yeah. It will certainly give her a bigger slice of the limelight she seems to crave. And, she assured me, will get her ever closer to the final result she fully expects. She and Chad will go free. Chad was convicted and he's on death row now. I understand that, yeah. They have some fascinating stories. How could you possibly think that Chad would be exonerated after what happened? The same way I will be exonerated. We will both be exonerated in the future.

1:21:36Because? I have seen things in the future that Jesus showed me when I was in heaven. Uh-huh. And we were not in jail, and we were not in prison, and they were still in the future from now. Her own little world? Well, something like that. Outside, in the real world, her only surviving son works hard to build a good life, in spite of all of it. I felt really guilty for even being the only one that didn't get killed, I guess, for a long time. But yeah, I mean, you know, you try to put a brave face on, you try to be there for your kids, you try to make it about them, but there's always a loneliness there.

1:22:24Well, his mother dances and dodges his questions and ours. And you're very good at dancing. And we should, we should do a little jig. You've already done a mental jig with your stories. After I get exonerated, maybe I'll go on Dancing with the Stars and you can come. Sure, okay, fine. Okay. And then... All right, I guess our time is up. Apparently it's up, yep. Lori Vallow Daybell went back to her cell.

1:22:59That's all for this edition of Dateline. and check out our Talking Dateline podcast. Keith Morrison and Andrea Canning will go behind the scenes of tonight's episode, available Wednesday in the Dateline feed wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you again next Friday at 9, 8 central. I'm Lester Holt. For all of us at NBC News, good night.