Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods

0:03Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I'm joined today by Andrea Canning to discuss her latest episode, A Walk Through the Woods. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here. To recap, in 2017, two schoolgirls, Libby German and Abby Williams, were found murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana, near an abandoned railway bridge. For years, the case went unsolved and police were at a standstill except for one clue, a grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on Libby's phone right before the murders.

0:41It would turn out to be a very big clue that helped solve the girls' murders. For this episode, Andrea is going to share a podcast-exclusive clip from her interview with the case's prosecutor, Nick McClelland. Then we'll answer viewer and listener questions from social media. All right, let's talk Dateline. Hey, Blaine. Hi, Andrea. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. This was a tough one for me. I can only imagine. I want to dive into that because this was one of those stories that, you know, a lot of our Dateline cases for viewers and even for us, they're brand new, right? You haven't heard about them before we bring them the episodes.

1:14This was something that we all kind of watched play out from beginning to end, right? Like I remember having friends cover this. I remember watching it. And when the cell phone video was released, all of that, there's a lot to dive into, I want to start with just where this actually occurred, that bridge. It was already an eerie kind of setting for a crime like this, right? It really was. It was, having been out there, it's very high up. It's old. It's dilapidated. It's, you know, the ties are kind of far apart. A lot of people would go out on it. But I mean, you're really playing with fire out on this bridge.

1:53Like if you fall, you're dead. I mean, I said to the sheriff, I was like, you would not catch me ever on that bridge. It was just so scary. I remember that line. And I thought the exact same thing. I mean, was it as high as it seemed? Yeah, that was what surprised me. Now it's been turned into kind of a, like a recreation place. But before the bridge, there's railings, you know, you can go out there and look out at the wilderness and the creek and everything. But the bridge is still there. The dangerous ties, people, if you wanted to go out on it, you could find a way. There was a lot that was really memorable about this episode, but I have to say that almost as soon as you introduced Libby's grandparents, Mike and Becky, my heart just went out to them because I can't imagine just this feeling of like, hey, they were just having a sleepover at the house.

2:41And then the next day they're gone. Talk to me about what it was like just having that conversation with them? It was hard. I was like, you know, on the verge of tears a few times. Mike and Becky were so nice. And I, you know, I commended them because there's a lot of grandparents who end up taking in their grandchildren, you know, as their own because of issues going on in the family. And I always think, you know, how incredible grandparents can be when they are so selfless. And, you know, they said they wouldn't have it any other way. And I think they truly enjoyed having the girls there. And something that was not in the show was something that Becky said to me.

3:23She said they had a Disney World vacation planned. Of course, the girls died. And she said the hardest thing, because it was months later, and they decided to go on the trip. And she said she had to call and take Libby off of the reservation, you know, just broke her when she had to do that because it just felt, you know, so real and they were so excited about the trip. Of course, of course. Oh gosh, that's just so, so heartbreaking. I'm curious, did you or did anybody from our Dateline team, did anyone speak to Abby's family? So Marianne O'Donnell, who's the producer on this story, the lead producer, she was in court every single day and including Saturdays.

4:06The court was on Saturdays too. So she got to know everyone. And Abby's family, they did not do a whole lot there with the media. They were not particularly outspoken about everything, which is understandable, given what they went through. Absolutely. Absolutely understandable. You know, let's talk about this investigation. I think, Andrea, for stories like this that so many of us follow kind of almost in real time, I'm almost even more fascinated to watch the Dateline episode because I think that I know a lot about a case. And then the episode brings forth some more that I didn't know. And the thing that I think all of us remember is that eerie recording from Libby's phone.

4:50They have this image now of the murderer, his voice, and really the girls helped bring down their own killer. Yeah, I mean, I said that to the prosecutor. I said it was like Libby helped solve her own crime, you know, and the crime of her best friend. I don't think I've ever covered a story where someone has the wherewithal, you know, to pull out their phone feeling, you know, something's not right here and just hitting record. So, you know, hats off to Libby, who, by the way, was a big fan of crime dramas. You know, she loves like CSI and she loved the show Body of Proof. And also, you know, I'll say to Mike Patty, her grandfather, he also really instilled, you know, safety in her and everything.

5:32And we know how tweens and teens are with their phones. I guess all those factors came together and she just had that instinct to pull out her phone. I'm curious. You know, one of the things that we heard was that recording and the words down the hill, right? And correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the only portion that was released. I didn't realize that they actually had, what, 43 seconds, you said, of audio? Yeah, 43 seconds of audio and video. And, you know, I knew viewers would wonder why didn't they release the whole video. We never got a straight answer, really, of why they didn't. I think they also felt like seeing the images, seeing the snippet of him walking was enough.

6:16Well, I have another question about that. And I wonder, did the video lead investigators astray at all? I mean, it led to people kind of pointing fingers at friends, acquaintances online, just anyone that they could think about that even slightly resembled bridge guy. I mean, I think they had to. You know, that happened. Sure, people were pointing fingers at each other and, you know, everyone was a suspect. But, you know, they had to release that video, right? I mean, how could you not? Sure. Because someone might have recognized something. And, you know, the killer, his wife had seen the story on the news and said, hey, you were out there that day around that time.

6:53You know, the police are saying, come talk to us. You know, if you were if you were out there on the trails. And so he did. You know, Richard Allen went to the police. Unfortunately, he didn't get with a detective. He got with a conservation officer. Like I know the now sheriff who was a detective said he didn't even know about Richard Allen. Like it never even got to him. That is unbelievable. Before we go further into Richard Allen, something that was really interesting about this episode to me, there were obviously alternate suspects. Let's talk about Anthony Schatz or Kagan Klein. That was a journey.

7:32That was interesting. That was like a really big time red herring. Yes, absolutely. it was. First, I want to say I loved that we had these interviews that like Court TV reporter had done, like WTHR. Yeah. I mean, to have that interview with the guy whose real picture it was while he was working out on a workout machine, by the way. I don't think I've ever done what's going on there, but I don't think I've interviewed any people like that on a like who are working out. Can I just say I appreciate the multitasking. OK, he said no excuses. We're getting it in today. I know, that was so funny. Yeah, I know.

8:08So funny. And it was so funny to think that he was a model and now he's like a police officer in Alaska. He's like, wait a second. Why am I getting dragged into this murder investigation? I just want to go on the record and say next time we do a talking dateline, perhaps we could do it from the Peloton. And that way we're - Right? Oh my gosh. No excuses to not work out here. But that whole episode with Anthony Schatz, Kagan Klein, I mean, that really was, yes, talk about a red herring. But I'm sure that when detectives kind of found those conversations with Libby, they were like, okay, this is it.

8:39Case closed. We got it. Yeah. I think they kept thinking that. Like, you know, I mean, they thought it was going to be solved within, you know, a week. And it just didn't happen. I would imagine this had a tremendous impact on this community. You know, everybody was just fearful. Delphi is just a tiny, you know, little community. And you can only imagine. Like, you're there to raise your family and, you know, have kids and, like, where they feel safe and where you can drop them off at the trails for the afternoon and not think twice. And you know everybody. That's the creepy thing. You feel like you know everybody.

9:11So now you're looking and it's like, okay, these people that I know, is one of you guys, like, are we in a restaurant with the person who did this? Are you next to me at the stoplight? Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, I was, everyone is so nice there. I was actually rear-ended. I was in a rental, yeah. And like a service type van, like just crashes right into the back of me. And he's like, meet me over at the fire. There was a fire station like right there. And so I went, and he was so nice. He's like, I'm so sorry, that was my fault. I feel like if I was in New York, they'd be like, you know, why did you stop at a stop sign?

9:46First, they wouldn't have told you to meet anyone over anywhere. They would have just like yelled at you and probably kept going. But it was funny, though, because it was like it just showed you just how nice. Yeah. Like, you know, like there was no animosity, no fighting, no like denying. No, just. I'm so sorry. I'm sure you were on your way to an interview or something. Oh, I was. We had we had to start late. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. OK, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her interview with the prosecutor in this case, Nick McClelland.

10:27Let's talk about the trial. And before we can talk about the trial, of course, we have to talk about the pre-trial hearing and kind of the judge ruling that the defense could not introduce this alternate theory that the murders were tied to Odinism. First, talk about what that was. And that was a tremendous blow to the defense. It was like the fireworks really happened pre-trial more than in trial. So if you watch the episode, you know, to our listeners, the defense team took me out to the woods and, you know, demonstrated how the sticks were placed on the bodies and the blood spatter on the tree.

11:06That was fascinating, by the way. Yeah, I mean, they were convinced that it was, you know, a ritualistic killing, whereas the sheriff, who was the former detective, said that he just felt like the sticks were kind of just like haphazardly thrown on the girls to try to cover them. But, I mean, one thing is that there were not, it was a very bad attempt. I mean, if he wanted to cover them up, it certainly didn't accomplish that. Sure. So, who knows? And so having that not be allowed in that, I mean, that kind of upends their defense in a way, right? Like they have to go on trial in a very different posture.

11:46Yeah. Well, and they weren't allowed any other suspects. So they just had to find what they could to defend Richard Allen. I mean, the defense went hard on his confessions, which they said were under extreme duress. That's what happens when someone is placed in solitary like that for months. So Richard Allen was actually, you know, most of our viewers at this point, I feel like, and listeners know the difference between jail and prison, right? Jail is if you've been charged with murder, you will go to a jail until your trial and throughout your trial. And then if you're convicted, then you'll be, you know, carted off to a state prison somewhere or a federal prison.

12:33In this case, they actually sent Richard Allen to prison. Why? They said it was for his own safety. I was in the jail in Delphi, and I did talk to the sheriff about the jail. And he said that they were understaffed. Richard Allen would have ended up with other people. It's just too small. So they said that's why they just made this decision to send him to the prison. And then why he goes into solitary, they say, is for his own safety. But there were stories of him like doing things with his feces and that he's in his underwear. And he's like, you know, the defense made it sound like he basically was like losing his mind in there.

13:19So they kind of they kind of call them like almost like false confessions. That's really interesting. Something that stood out to me was I believe it was his defense attorney who was basically saying, hey, when you talk about matching the physical description, he's wearing what jeans and a Carhartt jacket. Like everybody's wearing jeans and Carhartt jacket. You know, like who? Yeah, Carhartt hoodie. So I wonder about those just kind of differences or the kind of the pushback of like, does he exactly match the description of this guy? Well, the defense would say that he doesn't match. You know, there were differences in height and, you know, that the prosecutor, we pointed out, never actually had that moment, that Perry Mason moment in court, you know, point the killer out, the man you saw.

14:02Like they didn't even do that. Also, we should mention, too, that we have an extra clip that you did not see in the show. This is a clip from the prosecutor. Yeah, Nick McClelland, the prosecutor, talking about what it was like waiting for the jury to come back with a verdict. I didn't expect a verdict in five minutes. We had three to four weeks of evidence. They had shown through their jury questions that they were a very interested jury. They were paying attention. so we knew they were going to examine every piece of evidence carefully and not come to a decision in a hastily manner. Are you starting to think this could be a not guilty?

14:37No, I never believed it could be a not guilty. I thought there was too much evidence to be not guilty. My fear was a hung jury. Come back in Monday morning. The verdict is read and it is guilty. What is that moment like for your team, you thinking about the family, all the hard work that you've put into this? As you can imagine, it's the culmination of seven years for me, almost eight years for the family of investigating this offense, another two years of preparing for trial. Then the trial in itself, just imagine the culmination of that and to come out with a guilty verdict. Obviously, it's what we wanted.

15:13We think that brings justice to Abby and Libby and some piece of the family. And so it's just a huge weight off your shoulders. There were people who were very concerned about a hung jury because even though it didn't look good for Richard Allen, there was still a lot of circumstantial evidence. Do you find that there is still, even though he's been convicted, is there still some doubt about this in the town? Like, where do people land on where the verdict? I mean, yeah, well, it's like, you know, I, of course, didn't talk to like tons of people in town. I know law enforcement, of course, believes they have the right man.

15:48The families 100 % believe they have the right man. But there's some people that just, you know, that there's still lingering questions or, you know, the defense truly believes Richard Allen is innocent. I mean, they have a job to do, but they also believe he's innocent. Before we wrap up this portion of our conversation, Andrea, I want to circle back to something that you said at the beginning of just how difficult this case was, the story was for you to cover personally. And I mean, I wanted to ask you about that. I know that you are a mom, you're a girl mom. And you even mentioned that for a bit in the episode of just the similarity in ages with two of your girls.

16:26How did you kind of make your way through this story? Yeah, I mean, it just really, like, I was just fighting back tears. It was really sad for me because I always say, like, you know, the closest you can get to these people and their feelings, and it's not very close, but is to imagine that these are your kids. These are your daughters. You know, how would you feel? And as soon as you do that, you just kind of like, oh, like, it's hard to think about, right? that that could happen. It's just so hard to imagine that someone could do that to two teenage girls, but he did. Like the worst thing is when, and Blaine, your kids aren't old enough yet, but like when you try to reach your child and they're not answering their phone or their phone goes straight to voicemail and you try them more times and then you're like, what, you know, what's going on?

17:20Why is it going straight to voicemail? Is it, did the battery die? why are they okay like you know and in this case this was the nightmare you know where they're calling and nobody's answering and then the hours start to tick by and then it gets dark and then there's still no they don't know where they are and like you just would do anything to know where that child is well no I can imagine I'm watching you I could tell um just how where your heart was in this story. And I think that you just did a really beautiful job with it. So thank you. And I, you know, I don't want to scare my daughters, but I want to say to them, like, be so grateful, like for what you have, you know, I believe it was Mike Patty, you know, he said, hug your children and don't take them for granted.

18:08And, you know, just appreciate every moment. Because even though, you know, bad things aren't going to happen to everyone's children, they will grow up too. And so you need to just appreciate those moments, even just, you know, because it goes, you know, it goes fast. Yeah. Everyone says it and I completely believe it. So thank you for that. And thank you for, thank you for this. This episode was just, it was moving in so many ways, truly. Okay. And after the break, we will be back to answer viewer and listener questions from social media.

18:48We've got some social media questions. There were a lot of reactions to this. So I'll just read through a few. Ronnie Brock says, how could the police wait five years to follow up on a man who tells them he was there? Police could have gone to his home and found the jacket and pants he was wearing that day. That's, I mean, it's something we talked about. This goes back to the conservation officer that unfortunately just didn't have that spidey sense that maybe a detective might have. You know, like, I don't know. I haven't talked to this man. I know that law enforcement was, every time I would bring him up, they were careful to sort of protect him a little bit too.

19:27No, but there was no, you know, saying he did the wrong thing or anything like that. Okay, Jerry Lynn wrote on Facebook, how high off the ground was that bridge? 63 feet. 63 feet. Yeah, when you're standing up there, it feels even higher. I am sure. Yeah. I have to say, I have, I actually have a fear of heights. It comes and goes, but it would definitely would have, I couldn't have done it. You wouldn't like it. No, you would not like this. Yeah. We would have had to come up with a different way to shoot that. I could not have been up there. So my hat's off to you because that was amazing. Okay.

19:58Daniel Welcher on Facebook says, did Richard Allen have any criminal record before this? No. None. Nothing. That was what was so strange about the whole thing is like suddenly he snaps, you know, just didn't, just didn't make any sense. And then we have an audio question from Gracie Donaldson Cipriano. Let's listen. Hi, Dateline team. Gracie Donaldson Cipriano here with a question for Talking Dateline. While it was really good to see a guilty verdict, we don't know why Richard Allen killed Abby and Libby. There was no clear motive. If it wasn't Odinism and it wasn't personal, as he didn't know the girls, and it didn't seem like he was a serial killer, why?

20:38That's the million-dollar question, which we, you know, we did raise that in the show. You know, you don't need a motive in court. You don't need a motive as a prosecutor to try a case. But juries like them because they want to know why. You know, well, why'd this guy do it? And that was the one thing that nobody seemed to have an answer for. Just bizarre. It's so strange, too, because you're absolutely right. You want that resolution at the end. But no, it's in the truest sense, a senseless crime. Well, Andrea, we have talked a lot of Dateline today. Thank you so much. This was just a fascinating conversation as always.

21:15Thank you. And that's it for talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24 seven on social media at Dateline NBC. And exciting news, you can now submit your questions over the phone. Just call 212-413-5252 and leave a message with your question about Dateline and our episodes for a chance to be featured on Talking Dateline. And also remember to check out Keith's brand new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. It's about a double murder in the Great Plains and an investigation that came down to one single shiny clue.

21:51And as of today, Dateline premium subscribers can binge the entire series and episodes one through four are available for everyone else. And of course, we'll see you this Friday on Dateline on NBC for my very first show as a full-time Dateline correspondent. Thanks so much for listening. Thank you.