Talking Dateline: Center of the Storm

0:03Hi, everyone. I am Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I am joined by the one and only Andrea Canning. Hi, Andrea. Hey, Blaine. So this episode is called Center of the Storm. If you haven't seen it, you can find it in the Dateline podcast feed. So make sure to go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come right back here. Here's a quick recap. Karen Reed was accused of killing her boyfriend, John O 'Keefe, a Boston police officer, by drunkenly backing her car into him on a snowy January night in 2022. But Reed and her many supporters argued that's not true. They said that she was framed as part of a police cover-up and that O 'Keefe was actually killed by his fellow officers at a house party.

0:47Andrea's latest episode on the case takes us through the retrial after Reed's first trial in 2024 ended in a hung jury. Andrea shares how the jury finally reached a verdict this time around, and she also talks to the former state trooper right at the heart of this case. The man Karen Reed has accused of coordinating the cover-up, Michael Proctor. For this Talking Dateline episode, Andrea's got two extra clips that didn't make it into the show, one from her interview with Proctor and a second clip from her interview with one of John O 'Keefe's family members after the verdict. All right, Andrea, so let's talk Dateline.

1:24Let's do it. So I have to say that in my brief time at Dateline, I've gotten texted about a lot of stories, but there are none that people have reached out to me more about than Karen Reed. I think people who aren't even interested in true crime or court cases are really, really fascinated by the story. So I'm very excited to talk to you about this today. Yeah, I know. It's been a wild one as far as just people wanting to give you their input. I don't think I've ever been on a story with this many opinions and this many armchair detectives. I posted just a clip on Instagram, on my personal Instagram, a video I took.

2:04I had so many comments and it was like, one was for her, the next one was against. Then the next one was for her, the next one. Like, you know, it wasn't even like lopsided of like, you know, one feeling or the other. It was so divided, like split right down the middle, it felt like, like politics almost. Like, you know, like you're a Republican or you're a Democrat, you support Karen Reed or you don't support Karen Reed. And people are digging in, right? And they want to tell you why they think she's innocent or who's bad in this story. They all have their opinions about the players as well. So after all this time, we're talking about three years, two trials, finally there's a verdict in this case.

2:45And I mean, this was a tremendous news story when the verdict was reached. I'm curious, you were there, you were in Massachusetts when the jury came back. What was it like out there? First, what happened, it was so strange. They said that there was a verdict. And we're like, oh my gosh, there's a verdict. Okay, and then, nope, there's not a verdict. So the jury had knocked on the door saying verdict and then changed their minds. Oh. So I thought, okay, I guess this isn't happening today. And then not too long after, we hear there is a verdict. Wow. We left this room that we were in. We went down the hall in the courthouse, sat down on the bench.

3:23Uh-huh. And there were some people, some Karen Reed supporters who were in the courthouse, just like a few of them. And these people started crying in front of us, just the few people. They were crying. They were freaking out. And then we decided to hightail it outside. So we went out the front doors where everyone was waiting. And by the way, in the courthouse, you could—it was like the courthouse was shaking. It was so loud outside. I mean, when the verdict came in, the cheers were so loud because there were so many people, and they were all for Karen Reed outside. And to be clear, these are just random people.

3:58We're not talking about family, people with any stake in this. We're talking about just people who are— Just Karen Reed supporters, you know, dressed in pink. And so we, you know, we went outside, and then you could feel that energy of these people waiting for Karen Reed, you know, to come outside. and when she came out, it was like they just erupted in cheers. And even before that, they were chanting things like, you know, lock up Michael Proctor and they were cheering, Auntie Bev has to go, the judge. So they were just, you know, everything was about Karen, Karen, Karen for them. And she came out, they all cheered.

4:38And then she spoke into, there were many, many microphones and it was so loud that the audio was picked up, of course, for the news, but you couldn't hear a word of what she was saying. When you were standing there. It was just so loud. And, I mean, with the exception maybe of, like, the OJ case, you know, like, I don't, I can't really think of a case that has had this much attention, this many people show up, you know, get this heated about it, this divided. You know, it definitely had, like, shades of OJ, I think. Like that's what's so unbelievable about this, because, yes, even as you're describing it, I was thinking, OJ, that everyone had a feeling one way or the other.

5:17People were angry. People were upset. People were cheering or whatever. Yeah. I mean, I think the other one is the other case that you're kind of in the middle of right in the middle of covering, which is the Diddy trial. Right. I mean, that one is everybody's watching. Everybody has a thought. Everybody's following along. And it's just interesting that we're in this time of cases, you know, criminal cases really being followed super closely like this and being so polarizing. Yeah, people are just seem to be getting more and more into these cases, you know, where they feel they can dig in or where they feel there's wrongdoing or maybe the person's famous in Diddy's case.

5:56You know, it could be different reasons, but definitely getting all in on these cases. The interesting thing about Karen Reed, though, I mean, Diddy obviously was a massive celebrity, is a massive celebrity. So people can understandably be interested in that. Karen Reed was not a celebrity before, but this case has kind of catapulted her to that status, right? I know. I know. It's like her name. I mean, how many people at this point now have not heard the name Karen Reed, right? It's everywhere. She's also received money from supporters. Yeah. I mean, she has made no bones about it. she needs money and she still needs money.

6:34So, you know, she's still paying off the legal bill. As far as I understand, she has a civil trial coming up. You know, yeah, we had a clip in the show about somebody who gave her like a gift certificate or whatever to go buy suits, you know, for like, yeah, yeah, a suit. Yeah. I actually had wondered that. She always seemed so like impeccably dressed. And I'm like, how is she affording all that? Maybe that maybe she already own these clothes or but then you find out that there's people supporting her in more ways than one. We also heard from a juror in this NBC Boston's Sue O 'Connell interviewed a juror to kind of hear her feelings about the public's reaction to the verdict.

7:15It's always interesting to hear from jurors. So let's listen to some of that sound. Talk to me about the reaction when the verdict was read and the crowd outside screamed and cheered. I to be honest with you, I don't remember what happened in that courtroom at that moment because once I heard the people outside, I just closed my eyes and I started crying and I left the courtroom without looking to anyone. I did not expect to hear it because through the whole trial, we didn't hear anything on a jury room. We did not saw many people outside because we come from the back of the courthouse. So we would see someone walk away with a pink shirt here and there, but that was it.

7:56never hear chanting or comments or laughing or yelling or booing, nothing. And that's particular to me when I heard that people screaming out of happiness at the same time I was in John Wilkins' family crying out of sadness, and that broke my heart. So that moment, I kind of understood how big this case was and how we're making someone happen, and we're making a lot of other people sad too. so I don't remember what happened in courtroom that moment. I just closed my eyes and cried. Yeah, I mean, that really sticks out. We're making some people happy and then we're making some people sad. Yeah.

8:34And that's really, she just boiled it down in that one sentence. Yeah. And that must have been just such a weird feeling to know that your decision, you know, set that off. That, you know, that wave of cheers and excitement and commotion outside. And that, like, Like realizing the magnitude of the moment that it brought her to tears. I thought that was so interesting. Just kind of there had to have been, obviously, as a jury, you're kind of just focused on the facts. And that's the moment when all of the outside world comes rushing in. So I could I could see how that would be emotional, I guess.

9:09After the break, Andrea has an extra clip from her interview with former trooper Michael Proctor.

9:22So let's talk about the trial itself. I'm curious, and I'm sure a lot of people are curious, for those who watched the first, the second, what are some of the big differences that kind of stood out? The second trial seemed to focus more on, to me, it seemed science, data, you know, it had a different prosecutor. He seemed to take a more analytical approach, I would say, you know, versus the first one. They definitely, in the first trial, leaned more into the conspiracy, you know, the framing. Michael Proctor testified. You know, they had him read the texts. I mean, they still did that, though, in number two.

10:01Like, Alan Jackson, in his closing, said, don't let Michael Proctor win. Michael Proctor, the former trooper, is the boogeyman, you know. And so even though Michael Proctor did not testify and was not called by either, was not called by the prosecution, was not called by the defense, this is the lead investigator. Right. Which is so rare, right? They still went after him hard in the closing. It shows how much he just hangs over this entire case. We're going to get to your interview, by the way, with Michael Proctor. Before that, though, I mean, when we talk about differences between the first trial and the second, some of them were differences for journalists, right?

10:40I mean, for instance, Sue Simpson, our intrepid producer who was waiting in line to get in the last time. It was a different kind of a different scenario this time around to get inside the courthouse. Yeah, this time they did lottery. So the first time Sue was in her lawn chair that she uses for soccer games, showing up at midnight and sitting there all night. And then this time they did the lottery. So she was lucky. She kept in the beginning. She was not winning the lottery. And then she started. She got on a roll. She's winning. And she kept winning. And so she was able to keep getting into the courtroom.

11:15So she was able to observe. Very small courtroom. People are really packed in there. That's why they had to do a lottery because there were so many people. And not just, you know, media, like, you know, old school reporters and whatnot. They also had the social media influencers like Turtle Boy, podcast people, you know. And speaking of Turtle Boy, we didn't really hear from him as much this time around. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I saw him. I was standing right near him when the verdict came in. He was very happy. Another thing that we noticed, of course, in the second trial is that Dateline entered the chat.

11:54They played some interview clips from Dateline, right? Dennis Murphy, before we switched correspondence, he did the interview with Karen. So that showed up in the courtroom, some clips from his interview. They were trying to show some inconsistencies with Karen and her interviews. And also, I think there probably was a little bit of, you know, look, she's telling her story everywhere but the courtroom. You know, she's telling every single media person but not, like, in front of the jury. So I'm sure there was some of that as well, you know, with the prosecution, trying to point that out. Was that always going to be the call, that she didn't take the stand?

12:31I mean, you know, Blaine, that very often defendants don't take the stand, right? Because then, you know, in her case, her own words could be used against her from these interviews. You know, it's a gamble because they had this theory, right, that she was framed and they were sticking to it. And they wanted the jury really, I think, to focus on that and not on her and, you know, getting up there on the stand and possibly, you know, who knows what could happen on cross-examination. It's always friendly from your own attorney. And then when you get on cross, things can get dicey for a defendant.

13:08Speaking of hearing from people, we heard from Michael Proctor. And I have to say that, you know, I watch these episodes cold, even though I know that we're working on them and everything. but it's kind of fun when doing the talking datelines to just watch it as a viewer. And when I saw him in the preview, I said, oh my God, we talked to Michael Proctor. Andrea got my, like, I mean, I really was watching this, like, wow, I can't believe it. First, we talked to his wife, Elizabeth, though. That's who we heard from. Tell me what that was like. She was pretty candid in kind of how she reacted to finding out about those text messages.

13:38When she first found out about them, she didn't know what was in them exactly. He just said that they were embarrassing. And then she said it was, you know, started picking up steam a little bit where she's hearing this, she's hearing that. It started to get worrisome. And then I believe she didn't know what was actually in them until the trial. That's when she first heard the exact contents. Like when he read them on the stand? Yeah. Wow. And so she said that she did, you know, listen to that. Yeah. And so, you know, it's tough for her because she's the wife, right? She hasn't done anything wrong, and she's caught up in this firestorm and this, you know, such a charged case.

14:21Andy lost his job over this. And he lost his job. She was with him when they got the call. It was pretty much immediate after the mistrial that they called and said that you're losing your job. It's been very hard on her. She says she knows who her real friends are now. You know, that's a plus. She, you know, the people who have stuck by them and he's trying to get his job back. I think it's going to be more difficult now given the verdict. I mean, look, I don't know if it was, he was ever going to get it back, but like, it just seems like maybe now it's even harder. It was a fascinating interview.

14:53We actually have some extra sound from Michael Proctor from your conversation with him. So let's listen to that. When people ask me about the case, you know, I tell them, don't even bother looking at the evidence, the evidence or the facts of the data, look at it from a common sense perspective. The defense wants you to believe, and their blogger wants you to believe, that I coordinated this grand conspiracy with multiple units under the state police, Canton Police Department, Canton Fire, Canton Paramedics, a dozen or so civilian witnesses, and a dog. And not one person has said over three years, this is what happened.

15:31I'm not going down for this, because the truth is Karen Reed backed into John O 'Keefe with her vehicle. There's no conspiracy. How does the future look for Michael Proctor? Time will tell. Like I said, we're appealing my wrongful termination. I still want to be a trooper. I still know that I can do some good on the state police. So we're fighting. And that's step one. That's the number one thing for me right now. I mean, I'm really glad that we were able to hear his perspective on all this. I agree. And, you know, it's always—at Dateline, we just want everybody's side. It doesn't mean we're on anyone's side.

16:13We want to hear your side. And, you know, people, why'd you put him on there? You know, you get all kinds of, right, messages on social media. Yeah. Like all kinds of, you know, critics of an interview. And it really is—that's Dateline's way. We always will be that way. And that's what I love about our show. is that, you know, we don't just do one side. Of course. It's fair journalism. That's what it's called, right? I mean, when we get back, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her latest interview with one of John O 'Keefe's relatives.

16:55It's a very complex case. And, you know, we don't want to forget John O 'Keefe in the center of it. Absolutely. You know, this was a man who gave his life to public service. This is a man who, when his sister and brother-in-law died, he stepped up. He moved out of the city to raise his niece and nephew. You know, this is a man who had a lot of good qualities, that his life was cut short. And I think something that you did a great job of in this episode is reminding the viewer of who he was, right? And not letting him get lost, because that's something that his family member, Beth, said she felt and the family felt happened.

17:28And in all of this, there was so much, you know, talk about everyone almost but John O 'Keefe himself. Let's talk about Beth for a second. You did a second interview with Beth and you'd already spoken with her for the first episode. But this one was different because it was right after the verdict. I wonder if you can just kind of set the scene. How was she holding up? It was very raw at that moment. Tears, you know, she came over to where we were, you know, to interview. And my heart just went out to her. And that's not me, again, taking sides of anyone, but just feeling sympathy for someone who's in pain.

18:05Of course. At that moment. You know, because Beth and her family believe what they believe. And so for them, this is a loss, right? This didn't go the way they wanted. And they feel like just some serious injustice. So to talk to somebody that quickly after a verdict that went so wrong for them, it was painful. Of course. I could imagine. We have a little, an extra clip from your interview with her. Let's take a listen to that and then talk about it. What's going through your body as you hear those words being read in the courtroom? You know, I think it's, I don't, you know, honestly, I don't even know what happened at that moment.

18:53You know, I wasn't in court. I was down the street watching. And I think it was just a kind of a numb sensation of, you know, how, you know, what made them come to this conclusion where it's so different. than what we know. This has had such a domino effect, these accusations. It did. It's impacted more than just my family. It's impacted other families. It's impacted our friends. Lives have changed, not for the better, because of this situation and because of the actions that one person took on January 29th, 2022. Yeah. I mean, to the O 'Keefe family and extended family, there's no doubt in their minds that Karen Reed hit John O 'Keefe.

19:54Just like on the other side of this, there's zero doubt in Karen Reed's supporters' minds that she did not hit John O 'Keefe. Right. So we're just seeing a case through very different lenses from all these different people. And there's even shades, right? It's not even just she hit him or she didn't hit him. There's like, you know, there's people like in the middle too who can't really make heads or tails of this. So it's a tricky one. It's a tricky, tricky. It is a fascinating story. It's a fascinating case. One that has really just gripped everyone across the country. And you did a great job of covering it and bringing us this episode.

20:38So thank you, Andrea. Thanks, Blaine. Great to talk Dateline with you. And that's it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC. Plus, there's an all-new season of Josh Mankiewicz's podcast, Missing in America, out now. That series takes a deep dive into the country's most perplexing, unsolved missing persons cases. Make sure to catch a new episode every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, we'll see you on Fridays on Dateline on NBC.