Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage

0:03Hi, everyone. It's Blaine Alexander, and I am so glad to be here today with Josh Mankiewicz to talk about his episode, Deadly Mirage. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So make sure to go there, listen to it, or of course you can stream it on Peacock and then come right back here. So just a quick recap, in 2014, when Rob Limone was found dead at the rail yard where he worked, investigators wondered if it was a burglary gone wrong until they learned more about Rob's open marriage and close-knit group of friends who called themselves the Wolfpack.

0:39Detectives eventually zeroed in on Rob's wife, Sabrina, and her lover, a young firefighter by the name of Jonathan Hearn, and arrested them for Rob's murder. Hearn quickly confessed and agreed to testify against Sabrina in exchange for a reduced prison sentence. Sabrina denied everything but was convicted in 2017. She is currently serving a prison sentence of 25 years to life. Later on, we'll play you an extra clip from Jonathan's testimony at Sabrina's trial. But for now, Josh, let's talk Dateline. There's so much to talk about in this episode. I actually want to start with the location, Silver Lakes.

1:20You know, they called it the happiest place in the high desert. But that was actually the very first character that we kind of met in this story, right? Before we knew anybody's names, we knew the name of this location. Had you ever been to Silver Lakes before this report? I had. It is, you know, one of the interesting things about it is that like a lot of other things in California, it's completely artificial. It's this community that wouldn't exist if water were not brought in from somewhere else because it's the desert. But from that, there's this like little green oasis. And, you know, it's this sort of happy, perfect community existing, you know, sort of in the middle of nowhere.

2:00I'm curious, if you pick this story up and plopped it in another city, like a larger city, Atlanta, New York, do you think that it would have had the same kind of ring? Do you think that this would have played out anywhere else but this community? Well, I mean, it's a little like, you know, sort of Never Never Land. I mean, you know, you've got this group of young couples call themselves the Wolf Pack, their parents during the day and partiers during the night, you know. And that might not be the same in other cities because you don't necessarily have people just like you at your age group with kids living right near you in the same area.

2:38But, you know, look, I mean, the things that happened here are things that happen all the time all over America. I guess people who thought of building this community out there into the desert sun thought that they would not ever happen there. It's kind of a thread through this entire episode, people going out of their way to almost kind of create this facade of this perfect kind of place. Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. I mean, look, there are desert communities out there that have been out there a very long time. But like more recently have been these other sort of, you know, perfect planned communities where the streets are, you know, have names like Strawberry Lane where the Lamones lived.

3:18And I guess, you know, I guess the answer is that no matter how perfect you try to make the place where you are, real life issues are going to come in like infidelity and boredom and sometimes much worse than either of those. So I really like this question that you asked Jason, if Rob might have gotten involved with the wrong person or perhaps involved in a bad situation. And he says, yes, you never really know anyone, even in a picture perfect place like Silver Lakes. I think that Jason and Kelly were an interesting part of this story. You know, they were clearly part of the Wolfpack and the sort of party atmosphere that surrounded that.

3:58And there's no question that they were part of the, I don't know whether you want to call it swinging or wife swapping or let's just say this alternative lifestyle that they were doing. Because at one point, Jason made this sort of distinction between infidelity and what they were doing. But there was even the notion of Sabrina talking about permission, right? Like what she had permission to do. It's almost like it's fine. It's right. It's sanctioned if it's within this group because we all share this belief. But if you go outside, then you're stepping over the line. You know, what can I say? I mean, for a lot of married couples, it's kind of understood that there isn't any permission.

4:40Right. No matter who it is, no matter what situation it is, but they had chosen to do things differently. And at least for a long time, that appeared to be working. What was it like in that interview room when you were interviewing Kelly and Jason, when you actually asked them, OK, break this down for me. I don't understand. Who was with who? How did this work? What was that like? I can't tell you, you Blaine, exactly how this worked. But they clearly had some system which involved different people being together in different situations, maybe while other people were present, that they felt did not stretch the bounds of permission.

5:23so it was a way for people to be with other people without sort of you know breaking yeah breaking either i'm not going to say breaking their vows but at least breaking their their post-marriage vows of of what constituted fidelity and infidelity i one that was a very poetic way of describing this entire kind of convoluted thing but till i'm curious there are always like moments in our interviews that we do that can be uncomfortable or Or, ooh, you're really challenging someone or you're pushing somebody. Was this uncomfortable? How was that in the room? How did they respond to your question? Oh, yeah.

5:57No, no. They both, they had that expression of like, you know, when people are going to the dentist, you know, like this is going to be awful. But, you know, in a couple hours, it's going to be over. I'll be out of here thinking about how terrible it was. I mean, look, they agreed to do it. And I think they agreed to do it because they loved Rob, because they felt that he had been done wrong. You know, we got no subpoena power here at Dateline. People are only on because they want to be. And I think the Bernatines wanted to tell their story. They were ready for anything. And I can only imagine that it was embarrassing.

6:29It always is to have your sort of, you know, personal business laid out in front of the whole country. Look, one of the things that's always true about murder investigations is that it pulls back the covers on everybody's secrets, including things that don't actually have to do with the murder itself. And this was one of those cases. When we get back, we've got an extra clip from Jonathan's testimony at Sabrina's trial.

7:02So when I was watching this, my first question that I came back to, why did they have to kill the guy? Why murder, right? Why not divorce? Look, this is a question that I have specifically asked of defendants from whom I was separated by a thick pane of prison glass. Why did you not think about just getting a divorce? I mean, it's legal in this country, and you can get divorced as many times as you want. And your family may hate you afterwards. You may be out of money afterwards. words, you may have the distrust and enmity of your family and friends, but you will not be locked up. And you probably also will be able to sleep at night.

7:46Why people choose murder is one of the questions involving the stuff that you and I cover here at Dateline that I've never really had an answer to. Now, that said, why did this happen? Sabrina's defense was, I didn't want him dead. I was content. I had this life sort of compartmentalized the way I wanted it. I had my husband who I loved and who was a great father and took care of me and the kids. And then I had my lover who was very exciting and younger and we read scripture to each other. Her defense was, I didn't want either a divorce or murder. And you can't convict her without believing Jonathan.

8:34There is nothing on those tapes in which she acknowledges authorship of this plan. One of the questions I had, the day that Rob was murdered is a day where he's actually covering a shift for another employee. How would Jonathan know that he was picking up that shift? Did investigators think Sabrina might have told him or did he kind of get that hanging around the wolf back? I think that the idea that Rob was murdered at a place that wasn't his normal place of employment was a very big part of the prosecution's case, because I think the argument was made that that Jonathan would only have known where to go if Sabrina had told him.

9:12And Sabrina's response to that was, yeah, I probably did tell him, but not because I wanted Rob killed, but because Because when Rob was working that far away, then my lover and I would have plenty of time to get together because it's a super long commute for Rob and he's going to call me each way, coming and going. So it'll be the perfect day to sneak away for a few hours with Jonathan. That's her argument. One of the questions that was posed during this episode was why would Jonathan throw away his entire life? All I can say is, you know, all of you, not just you, Blaine, but you in the audience, like think back to your first relationship and how it seemed like it was everything.

9:53Right. This is the person I've always thought I should be with. And now I'm with them. How can we forge a relationship that lasts forever, despite the fact that we are not supposed to be together or that we're too young or we're both in high school or like whatever it is? And people do that. And I think that's some of what Jonathan Herr was going through. He had led in that way, I think, a kind of a sheltered life. I mean, there was a lot of discussion that she was the first significant relationship he'd ever had. Especially if you feel that it's all kind of, I guess, underwritten or supported by religion, right?

10:29Like this is kind of. Yeah, I mean, or if you've talked yourself into that. I mean, you know, how you how you read the Bible as closely as at least Jonathan did and she did under sort of his tutelage, I think, and come up with a justification for murdering your husband, an innocent person who was not any kind of immediate physical threat to her. That's what's so fascinating about this. There's kind of this notion of when you talk about the kind of push and pull between what prosecutors allege happened and then just the religion behind it. And at one point we heard her say Rob would rather be dead than divorced.

11:09I wonder if at some point there was kind of this decision that was essentially almost made for Rob, right? Like if the question is why not divorce, kind of saying, well, he would prefer it this way. I wonder if that was part of the mindset of like, hey, we're almost doing him a favor. Let me just say to all Dateline viewers, when somebody says I'd rather be dead than divorced, they do not actually mean it. They don't mean it. No. No. No. Most people, forced with that choice, most people would rather continue to be alive. You're not doing them a favor. I was even struck. One thing that almost gave me chills was when we listened to the wiretap and it sounded like they literally prayed for the wisdom to be able to cover up a murder.

11:49There's one of the commandments, by the way, that deals with this. Maybe they should have read that. A little more fuller reading of Scripture might have been required here. You should not kill. You shall not lie. Like, there were a lot of commandments that were— Yeah, shall not covet thy neighbor's wife. Exactly, exactly. I mean, if you look at the story of David and Bathsheba in the Bible and get away from that with the idea that, like, there's a biblical justification for that, then you have not read the Bible very closely. It didn't happen. It didn't happen in the scripture. No. Didn't happen that way.

12:21No. You know, I wonder if Jonathan's motivation for all of that right afterwards was, let me confess to Kelly and Jason. That will be kind of my way of following through with the scripture, confessing, that's a police who could put me in prison. But let me confess to these friends and that'll kind of help me get rid of this guilt. People make all kinds of moral choices to assuage themselves of the guilt that they might be feeling. What was in his head? I don't know. I can tell you the one thing that was in his head was to hire a criminal attorney and get to the courthouse first, because this is a classic example of first squeal gets the deal.

12:58Now, I have to say for all the love talks, all the hours and hours of phone conversation, all the praying together, it didn't seem to take long for him to go ahead and flip on her. No. So Jonathan pleads guilty to manslaughter and agrees to testify against Sabrina during her trial. And when he does, the prosecutor projects a selfie of Jonathan that was taken in December of 2013. And in the selfie, you see him. He's crying in a picture and holding up a letter. I want to play a little bit of a clip from that prosecutor asking Jonathan about that letter. I'm going to read the opening sentence to you.

13:28I didn't know that love would feel this good. I feel bad for crying because I know we are doing the right thing. This time frame, December 2013, did you attempt to break up with Ms. Lamont? Yes, we did discuss a breakup. Next sentence, it's crazy to think that we truly, really, truly could have caused your divorce within a few months. I love you so much, but I never want to hurt your family. You recall writing that? I do. This was a time where upon some reflection of thinking of the relationship that I had ongoing with Sabrina, I had come to the conclusion that if it would be best for her and ultimately beneficial to her, I would remove myself from her life.

14:14What was the prosecutor trying to show there? I mean, first of all, like, you know, I love you so much, but I never want to hurt your family. Clearly, he went back on that decision. I think what the prosecutor is trying to show here is that there was this magnetism between the two of them that kept drawing them back together, even though they tried to break up a couple of times. So the prosecution went on to ask Jonathan about some of his writing from a few months later, and the tone has shifted quite a bit. Let's listen to that. Where it begins in pencil, says, please kill him, God, with three exclamation marks.

14:50Why did you write that? this timeline was a very,

14:57was a time where I think I inherited a lot of her frustrations against Rob. Her frustrations with Rob became my frustrations. Her demons became my demons. And I had a frank disgust for him that was developing and contributing to me being very dismissive of his life, ultimately. Dismissive of his life. I just that that's that's one way to minimize what he ultimately would ultimately happen. But yes. And look, I mean, I mean, here is the absolute worst thing that Rob Lamone did. If you believe her story and Jonathan's story, they both are claiming that it was Rob Lamone's idea that his wife sort of partake in this sort of, you know, party sex atmosphere.

15:44That is the allegation. Again, was it true or was she as active a player in that as he was? We don't know. But the idea is that somehow, this is Jonathan's thinking, that somehow that is in itself reprehensible and led him to sort of have no respect for Rob. and somehow ignoring the fact that he's taken off his clothes with somebody else's wife, that's not as reprehensible because he's the one that's doing it. But this whole notion of selective morality throughout, like, aha, that is wrong, and therefore that justifies murder, or this is wrong, but I'm actually doing the same thing, but this is wrong over here, that really was kind of the theme throughout this entire thing.

16:30Yeah, right. I mean, you know, what's right for me is not right for you, And I can condemn your conduct while sort of, you know, exhibiting some of the same strange decisions myself. Up next, we're taking your questions from social media.

16:52Let's jump into some of our social media comments. There were a lot, a lot of comments about how Jonathan and Sabrina were kind of misinterpreting words in the Bible, twisting words in the Bible, however you choose to characterize it, for their own benefit. So here's what Darlene said. I hate it when people try to use the Bible to justify their evil doings. Brandy Guthrie, I think this is the episode where he says, David didn't turn state's evidence on Bathsheba, which, yes, yes, it was. I love that line, and I remember rewinding it several times. That was a good one. That was a good one. Thank you.

17:24Brandy Guthrie, thank you so much for that. That's one of my favorite lines in Dateline. Yeah, David did not flip on Bathsheba. That's what's interesting is they spent so much time reading and talking about the Bible and using it to justify this affair that they were having, if not the murder. And yet, if you read the story of David and Bathsheba, it's very clearly a cautionary tale. Like, you don't read that and think like, all right, yeah, that all worked out the way it was supposed to. We can mirror this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also, lots of comments about the swinger lifestyle. Salome Paul says, what surprised me the most was the revelation that Jason and Kelly were also swingers.

18:13That was a huge part in the story and that they were together and all of this. I mean, they were, no question they were. This would all happen sort of after the kids would go to bed and the liquor bottles would be uncorked. Can I just say, I was really, as a mother of two children, I was just amazed that folks had the energy for this. I was just going to ask you this. I am exhausted at the end of the day. I was just going to ask you, yeah, when the kids are in bed, I'm thinking that the last thing you and Jay are thinking about is let's have some other people over. We can barely have a coherent conversation.

18:48We are exhausted. So the fact that parents have energy for anything else, much less this very involved lifestyle, is beyond me. Yeah, no, I must say, I thought, wow, weren't you worn out? But apparently not. We are confused, but okay. Diane Toth also kind of touched on a little bit about the two friends. Did I hear right the two friends talking about Jason and Kelly, who spoke about them, are now divorced? Yeah, the Bernatine's marriage did not survive all of this. And I guess the question is, you know, is did this intrigue, you know, the wolf pack? Maybe is that what undid them? Or is that what made a marriage possible?

19:28This little extracurricular thing that they were having? Because in some cases, that clearly is the escape valve that people need. And look, I mean, I'm not looking down my nose at anybody. I mean, I, you know, marriage is very difficult. People do all kinds of things to make their marriages work. As long as everybody understands what they're getting and as long as, you know, you're not hurting anybody else, there certainly exists an argument for an alternative lifestyle. You know, a lot of people had comments or questions about the sentencing and all of this. So Brianna Alba on Facebook wrote, is there any update on Sabrina in jail?

20:07How is she doing in jail? Has she spoken anything like that? I don't know how she's doing in prison. We look, the one person we really wanted to speak with for this was Sabrina. First was Sabrina and second was Jonathan. Those are the two people I wanted to talk most with. And third was the prosecutor, because I wanted to know what got you from Jonathan actually committing the crime to her being the ringleader. Because what is there besides Jonathan's word that she was the ringleader in all this? And none of those people wanted to talk with us. The answer was no. Now, in California, where everybody's incarcerated, doing electronic interviews, radio or TV from prison is much more difficult than in other states because some laws were enacted after Charles Manson gave a bunch of TV interviews to make it harder for prison inmates to appear on television.

21:06Interesting. So it's much harder in California to speak with people who are incarcerated in the state system than in other states. And then this last one from Lisa Helfrich. I want to read this. I have to say, I think this is the most riveting episode of Dateline ever. Since it aired, I've spent a sad amount of time watching footage from the trial. And for the record, Josh Makowitz is my favorite Dateline host. I've already told my loved ones that if, God forbid, I am missing or murdered, I want Josh to cover it. So there you go. I have two things to say to that. One, Lisa, thank you. Two, a year from now, you'll be saying Blaine Alexander is your favorite Dayline host.

21:48That is very, very kind. They will be absolutely saying that to you, too. Yeah. And you're like, huh, noted. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Sure. Sure. Sure. I will cover your horrifying disappearance. Disappearance. It's kind of an honor in a way. We hope it never comes to pass. We don't ever want to cover you, Lisa, or anybody else. That's right. Thanks. That's right. Okay. Well, this has been quite a discussion for quite an episode. Josh, always, always great to share a mic with you, my friend. Thank you so much for Talking Dateline. Thank you. And great to see you and hear you here on Talking Dateline and many more to come.

22:22Absolutely. Can't wait. And that's it for Talking Dateline this week. To dive even deeper into this case, make sure to check out Josh's six-episode podcast of the same name, Deadly Mirage. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. Also, make sure to follow Dateline True Crime Weekly, where you can get daily coverage of the Sean Combs trial and our latest podcast series, On Trial. Remember, if you've got any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC. And if you have a question for Talking Dateline, you can record a message and send it to us on social media or call this phone number and leave a voicemail.

23:04That number is 212-413-5252. You never know who will answer it, and you'll have a chance to possibly hear your voice featured on an upcoming episode. And of course, we will see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. Thanks as always for listening.