Talking Dateline: In the Matter of Alex Murdaugh

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1:25Hey, everyone. I am Andrea Canning, and we are talking Dateline. And today I'm joined by Dateline producers Carol Gable and Haley Barber. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks. Andrea, thanks for having us. I feel like we'll never stop talking about this story. No, because we are talking about In the Matter of Alec Murdoch. And ladies, the revelation that has gone around the world about this new trial is just incredible. Our friend and colleague Craig Melvin is the correspondent on this episode, and he did some really great interviews and reporting. Before we get to that, can you just give us a really quick recap about this case?

2:07It started with a call to 911 with Alec Murdoch, who is a very prominent Hampton County attorney. And he's saying that his wife and son are dead and he's found their bodies. And investigators rush in. It starts a very intensive investigation led by the state law enforcement division. And we learned that, in fact, it's Alec who is the chief suspect in this case, that all of the information from his car put him at the scene. And then, of course, we get to the trial and we have the verdict that was seemingly conclusive. Alec had been sentenced to back-to-back life sentences and appealed the murder conviction.

3:00Since then, a lot has happened, Andrea. And a lot of the kind of drama surrounding this case has centered on the clerk of court, Rebecca Hill. And after the trial, there were some allegations that she had maybe done some things with the jury that weren't above board. Alec appeals this case to the state Supreme Court. They agree to hear it. And ultimately, that's how we ended up here with this kind of landmark breaking decision. Yeah. Wow. Now, Becky, Becky, Becky, as the justices said, she put her finger on the scales of justice, which really just threw a grenade in all of this. So at Dateline, we don't always get to watch every episode because, you know, we are very busy.

3:47I would love to say I watch every single one. Wow. I mean, when I watched this, it was incredible. I mean, first of all, all of you did such a good job. like putting this story together. But I mean, trying to fit all of this into a two-hour show was my head hurt just trying to imagine all the details that probably didn't even make it. Yeah, it's hard to summarize these past years, Andrea, since this murder happened in 2021. But the other thing that we sometimes forget in light of the murder coverage is that Alec was also accused and ultimately pled guilty to so many financial crimes. He was stealing from his clients who we have met, some of them, and a lot of them don't have the means that he had.

4:36And people often ask, what is it about this case that has just so captivated the world? And I think the curtain was really lifted on this small town where this family really was so trusted by such a group of people and the betrayal that is still felt when you go there is really something resounding. You could really sense just the power that this man had, Alec, and just the family. Well, they straddled two legal universes. On the one hand, you had Alec's dad who'd been the district attorney for years and years and years. And then the law firm that certainly made a name for themselves in so many product liability and other personal liability cases, I mean, just have made a fortune.

5:31And there's so many courtroom stories about Alec's dad. I mean, he would walk up to a jury and while he was waiting for things to go, he'd say, hey, Elaine, how's the baby? You know, he just knew everybody, and they all knew him. So it's very deep. It's generational. And, you know, now books, movies, podcasts about this, it's everywhere. It is. Yeah, I was actually thinking, as Alec is waiting for the police to arrive and you see the body cam, and you know this history of this man and this family, And even though police, obviously law enforcement, you know, has to keep an open mind from the get go.

6:16Right. But at the same time, you're thinking I'm thinking I wonder if their first instincts are like, no way could he have done this. You know, he's he's this lawyer, his his family, you know, have such deep roots in this community. Well, they did not seal off the house immediately for the crime scene. They sealed off where the bodies were found, but, you know, friends and family were gathering already quickly because the news spread amongst their circle. And people rushed to the house, and that was not cordoned off as part of the crime scene. And I don't know if that was—you could call it a mistake or you could call it sort of acknowledgment of who this family was and that they, you know, were definitely going to get together.

7:05Yeah. I mean, and I was thinking to myself, all those guns in the house, wouldn't you want to immediately secure that to, you know, for testing and like to see if maybe they were shot by one of those weapons? I don't know. Just seems like it would have been a smart thing to do for law enforcement. Yeah, and it's a sprawling and confusing crime scene in a lot of ways. You know, Ellick is down at the kennels, but the house is actually a ways away. This is a big property. And the one thing I think that Colleton County really did well was they called in the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division right away.

7:46They said, we need backup. We need help. But by the time those agents arrived, you know, this was late into the night and it's pouring rain. And the crime scene had been sitting out there for a long time. You know, this lead sled investigator, Agent David Owen, he kind of reflected on the magnitude of arriving at that scene. And a lot of people, even if they weren't familiar with Alec, they had heard about the boat accident in 2019 that had happened with Paul. And even those first investigators that arrive, you can hear them on the body cam saying, did you hear what the name is? this is the Murdochs.

8:26Wow. And yeah, and, you know, the boat accident is brought up immediately. You know, it's... Well, and I think, in fact, Alec says right there... He brought it up right there on the scene that, you know, he thought that perhaps this was revenge or some sort of get back at the family because of the boat accident when Mallory Beach was killed. So I was wondering about the timing of all of this, where he is supposed to appear in court to hand over his financial documents to disclose what's going on, and then his wife and son are murdered. Well, I think one thing we've heard is that Alec had been delaying turning over this financial information for a long time, kicking that can down the road.

9:21And that he was told by the Mallory Beach legal team that if you don't turn this over, then I will sue Paul and Maggie in Beaufort County. Now, what that really means is I will sue your family to get this money, but in a county where you don't hold this kind of influence. And there's also an element, I think, that he was afraid that when he started turning over financials, somehow there's the strong suggestion that he thought this would be the string that would unravel all of these financial misdeeds that he'd been doing for years. But, you know, you then have to, as a jury, think that that thread that was unraveling led straight to motive.

10:15And boy, that is a jump that you think because you're about to unravel completely financially that your remedy is killing your wife and son. That's a big step to make. And that was something else I wanted to talk about. I mean, obviously, we unfortunately see, too, all too often husbands killing wives. You know, I don't think that's any surprise to a Dateline viewer at this point or listener. But to kill your own son, that's the part that, I mean, both are obviously horrific. But that one is harder to wrap your brain around. Yeah, and I think we should probably importantly say that the defense really disputes this motive that Alec would commit such a heinous crime to distract what was going on in his financial life.

11:09If they would tell you, and they say Alec would tell you, he was extremely close to Paul. And by all accounts, there's a video of Alec and Paul riding around the property in the evening, hours before this murder takes place. And they're looking at the sunflowers, and you can hear them laughing. Why? It just doesn't make sense. It's very hard to fathom. Well, which begs the question that when you've got them all being pretty jovial on that infamous video down at the dog kennels, you're then having to believe that that tenor of that conversation turned quickly because they're dead moments later.

11:58So then who did kill them? And that is something that the defense has said that they've got some leads on who it possibly was. Now, they did not present those at the trial where he was found guilty. So we'll see if they come up with more. And as we get towards, I want to talk about the next step in all of this, but I'm so curious what you thought, what people, you know, who are watching the trial, covering the trial. Alec really is emotional or appears to be very emotional on the stand to the point where like actual snot, pardon my language, that's not a bad word, but it's kind of gross. But it's coming out of his nose.

12:44And I mean, I just thought to myself, oh, wow, like, you know, normally, let's say he wasn't, you know, being looked at for these murders. I probably would buy it, you know, because he did look very emotional. But given that he's on trial for a double murder, what were people's thoughts about his these tears and his nose and all of it? I just think they didn't believe it. Okay. But during the trial, I think Haley and I observed that he sometimes would rock back and forth. He would sometimes, I mean, I think he had, I think the blow your nose thing, frankly, was something we had seen during the trial.

13:32I sent you ladies the screen grab as I was watching it this weekend because I kept seeing you in the gallery. And, of course, that led, Carol, to our text conversation about those horrible benches in courthouses across America. And they are the most painful thing to sit on for hours on end. If we're headed for another six weeks trial, chiropractically, I'm not sure I can survive. Well, why don't – I mean, I've seen this in trials before where some people will bring in like, you know, almost like the little baseball pads they bring to baseball games or they give out at baseball games. Oh, no. I have a stadium seat that I can bring on.

14:14Oh, so you have that. I have tools. I bring my tools and I share. Yeah, absolutely. It's awful. Haley and I, though, have learned the hard way through this trial is you can stay home and watch it on a live feed in your bunny slippers, but you learn so much more about what's going on if you're there. And there's no substitute for being there. When we come back, we'll have an extra clip from Craig's interview with Murdoch's attorneys.

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17:27I want to know, you two live and breathe this case so much, and Craig, take us to that moment where you find out that Alec is getting a new trial. Where were you? Do you just immediately call each other? How does this all come about? Another one of our colleagues started calling me again and again. And I was on one of our associate producers on this case who are our legs of the operation. And I thought, that's strange that Kitson knew calling me. Oh, give them a shout out. Who is it? Oh, it's Javi. Oh, Javi. Oh, we love Javi. We love Javi. Javi is calling me. And I was on another work call. And I see that he's calling my personal phone again.

18:10Yeah. In my head, I thought, he's got a new trial. Murdoch. And I called Carol right away and I said, and Carol answered like she, you know, Carol and I are very close in real life. Yes. Besties. And she said, hey. And I said, Carol. She said, what? She said, Alec got a new trial. And I don't think I should repeat here what she said. Can you give us the mild version? Oh, oh no. Oh, boy. Well, and we just know what's coming. You know what's coming. And that's the big part of this, right, is that it was such a long trial. So many witnesses to do all the pretrial hearings. I mean, to do all of this all over again is just daunting.

19:00There's another lay of drama here because we're in the middle of an election in South Carolina. The attorney general. He's running for governor. He's running for governor. and we have a wholly new person that's not really on the radar of what we know about the Murdoch case, who's, well, several people running for the AG's job. And that's why in our interview last week with the Attorney General, Alan Wilson, he says he would, you know, is doing all he can to make this case be retried before he leaves office in January. And maybe Carol as death penalty this time, as they're saying. Death penalty, he said, is on the table.

19:47That was on Friday, yeah. What was so wild for me was watching the episode when you go back in time, because now you know what you know. And Becky obviously, you know, made some major mistakes here, the court clerk. You go back and you hear Alan giving this press conference. I call her Becky Booth. That's her nickname. But Madam Clerk, wherever you are tonight. I want to be careful here because the defense lawyers were talking about this last week. There was a very rare camaraderie that the media had at this trial because it was six full weeks and we sat in the same seats together. And I will say that at the time, Becky, it's not unusual for us, and you know this well, Andrea, that a clerk of court is a very integral part of the report.

20:47Absolutely. Absolutely. They are providing us hearing times. They are helping us understand what's going to go in the courtroom. We get exhibits from them. And there have been so many allegations, and Becky has ultimately pleaded guilty, but I think before we point any fingers, we were all just kind of getting through this trial in the best way that we knew how, which was to do our jobs and work with the clerk in a professional way. Well, and to be fair, she was a first-term clerk of court, and this was, by any measure, would be a lifetime huge trial. And Haley and I met with her months before the trial because logistically, you know, journalists need a place to sit.

21:39We need to know what do you want us to do about parking. We want to know how are you—just the logistics of covering a trial. And I think while we were living it, you know, she did a very good job of wrangling a lot of things. She seemed really personable, too. She seemed like the right person to be handling a trial like that. It seemed organized. Yeah. I was reading, because actually we found out this morning, Andrea, that Alec Murdoch is now suing Becky herself. In civil court. In civil court today. He's kind of, you know, demanding that some of his attorney's fees be paid due to the suffering that he's, you know, been under because of everything that has happened.

22:26But in the complaint, it states how Becky's election was in 2020 and this crime happened in 2021. And we went to trial very quickly. And I just thought, wow, imagine this being, you know, one of the first trials that you ever do as a clerk. And I've been at Dateline a long time. Carol's been at Dateline a little bit longer. I would say even for us, the media attention on this case has been unprecedented. Yeah, it really has. I mean, and what did the justices say? The South Carolina justices, something about stardom with Becky? It was Justice Jean Toll who said that she was called by the scion of celebrity.

23:09And the justices ultimately agreed. The defense team, Alec's defense team, has really hit the ground running with this. And we have an extra clip from Craig's interview with the defense team that we can take a listen to. All 12 jurors are called in to testify. They're asked if they were in fact coerced. They're asked if they felt pressured, influenced to vote guilty. What did they say? Most of them said no. Only takes one, though. I mean, the Supreme Court case directly on point. If she attempted to influence one juror, that's enough because you're entitled under the Sixth Amendment to a fair trial, not a pretty fair trial.

23:55A fair trial, 12 jurors who are not being influenced by extraneous influences. And one juror said that it did influence her. But what's important is our Supreme Court followed the law that says you don't get to ask jurors what went into the mix to make up your mind. That's an unanswerable question after the fact. And so one of the things that the opinion does is says you don't go there. What you have to do is you have to look at the conduct, the comments, the context in which they were made, and would that affect a reasonable juror, not how it affected those individual jurors. A hypothetical reasonable juror.

24:39You know, that is a really interesting quote because ultimately the Supreme Court decided, you know, even though you had 11 people say I was not influenced, how can you unhear that? For the ones that—all of them did not hear Becky say any of those things. But for the ones that did, even though they said it didn't influence me, I think the feeling is, should you be forced to unhear that? No. How would you know? Well, yeah, I mean, I said to you guys that day when the decision came out, I said, Becky is having a very bad day. You know, this is her worst nightmare that this happened. Well, and I think this trial was so long and so arduous and so painful for so many people that even if you're glad that the Supreme Court has remedied a problem they see with what Becky did, the prospect of doing it again, even if you think that's the fair thing, is still exhausting.

25:45It's exhausting. We should say that we have attempted to contact Becky as well as her lawyers in this case, and we have not received anything back. Well, you two have a lot of work ahead of you. I will say that area is beautiful. It is. I saw the picture of the Beaufort Hospital after the boat crash, and I went there for a change of command at the base there. And it's just the most stunning area. I think that's why Pat Conroy wrote The Prince of Tides and said it right there. That was there? Yeah. Oh, I love that book and I love that movie, Nick Nolte. I think it's so fortuitous too, Andrea, actually, that you brought that up.

26:41And I was talking to a few people over the weekend that were close with the family and close to the situation. And we should just bring up that, you know, Mallory Beach's death in 2019. And the other victims in this case, you know, there's just Maggie's family and the Murdoch family and there's just so much pain. So much pain. Goes back to that night in 2019 and the original lawsuit and, you know, Mallory's death. So you just brought up Paris Island and they were out there on the boat and how beautiful it is. And she was really a beautiful person. And, you know, it kind of all goes back to that.

27:25She was just, yeah, I mean, she was gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous, Mallory. And you just look at her and you're like, this is a girl who had her whole life ahead of her. Yeah. On that note, we are going to take a break and come back with questions from our viewers, our listeners, social media questions. Are you guys up for that? We sure are. Wonderful.

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29:24Welcome back. And now we have some very curious viewers and listeners who have some observations and comments that they would like to ask you guys about. So we will start with Bambi Workman. She is from Facebook. And she says, I'm watching Dateline NBC. What a crazy turnaround. I was thinking that, too. How you guys got that on the air so fast for Friday with all that new information and new interviews. And with Craig's schedule on the Today Show. We should really give all kudos where kudos are due, which is to Craig because he, to your point, wakes up at 3.30 in the morning and, by the way, manages to keep all of this stuff in his head.