Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview

0:03Hi, everyone. I'm Andrea Canning, and we are talking Dateline. Today, I'm joined by Keith Morrison to discuss his latest episode, Lori Vallow Daybell, The Jailhouse Interview. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come on back here. To recap, Keith brings us the first television interview with one of the most infamous women in America, one whose story he's been covering for the last five years, Lori Vallow Daybell, the woman convicted of murdering two of her children and conspiring to murder her husband's former wife.

0:40As she sits in an Arizona jail cell awaiting yet another murder trial, one in which she'll be representing herself, Keith asks her the hard questions we've all wanted answers to. And Lori doesn't hold back. For this Talking Dateline, we have an extra clip from Keith and Lori's bombshell interview, so stay tuned for that. And with that, I say, okay, let's talk Dateline. Keith? Hey, how are you? Hey. Hey. I'm good. I'm good. The weather's perking up here on the East Coast. Spring is almost here. Yes, exactly. So in getting into this episode, I'm going to start with the first 15 seconds of this show.

1:20Something that was extremely disturbing to me was Lori Vallow winking at the camera as she's walking through the hall to your interview. What the heck is up with that? I think that was as good a representation of her personality, her attitude, and whatever is going on inside that brain of hers as anything else. The wink at the camera was Lori Vallow being Lori Vallow. She's brazen, if nothing else. Well, yeah. I mean, it just seemed so inappropriate, so not the tone for what she's about to talk about with you. Sure. All of it. I knew we were going to be in for a ride after that wink. And yes, I was right.

2:05Okay, so first of all, Keith, I was really shocked at just the layers of what this woman is accused of. She is deeply, deeply disturbed. Well, yes, the legal system considers her sane enough to go on trial and sane enough to represent herself in the courtroom. And she's a bright woman. There's no question about that. very quick with a retort or whatever. But I really do wonder whether she is sane, honestly. It's just my question. There were months and months where they delayed her trial in Idaho, the trial for killing the children. She was deemed not psychiatrically capable of facing trial, of, I guess, understanding the charges against her adequately.

2:57So she went off for treatment. She was treated for delusional disorder of extreme religious variety for months. And finally, she was declared sane enough to go on trial. She was put on trial and she was convicted. And when I say deeply disturbed, just I should note, I'm not diagnosing her. This is just as if you were saying she appears deeply disturbed based on the allegations, based on the convictions. Sure. The other thing that was just so odd about her was, and I'm curious how much she knows about your episodes because you've done this a few. Oh, she knows. A lot. Oh, yes. But she was so casual with you.

3:42How is she so familiar with you? Well, the specifics of it, I cannot tell you, but I'm pretty sure she has heard a good deal of the podcast and probably has seen an episode or two of the program. But she told me that she had been kind of waiting for me. She had indicated that she wanted to talk to me. Why did she finally agree to do it? She didn't tell us. But my assumption is it has something to do with the upcoming trial. She is being tried for a conspiracy to murder her fourth husband, Charles Vallow. This is the one with her brother? Yes. Well, Alex was her angel of death. That was the nickname that people gave him.

4:23He's dead now. He died in circumstances which seemed mysterious at the time and eventually were declared natural causes. But he was the one who admitted that he shot Charles Vallow and he claimed it was self-defense. The police heard what circumstances they were told by Alex and by Lori and decided, okay, well, I guess it was self-defense. They didn't press charges. And so it was only later on when the investigation was resumed and the police from Gilbert, Arizona, conducted a significant investigation that they realized, okay, they could certainly, they felt prove a case against Lori and that, you know, Alex was her trigger man.

5:06After covering her for so long, what was that like for you finally sitting across from her? It was curious. When I saw her come in, I realized, okay, this is going to be a ride because she just presents that way. And she had all the way along, really. I mean, you observe her on videotape from the very beginning. She clearly has an attitude. She clearly stuck to her guns or to whatever she claimed her beliefs were in the whole court process. And so I was expecting somebody who would be that way. I had prepared a whole long list of things we wanted to talk to her about. And all of that kind of went out the window.

5:50As it often does, right? As it often does. But for reasons of her behavior, her attitude, and the fact that at the very beginning, she launched into this story that was going to suggest at the end the idea that it was Tylee who, because she was ill and not feeling well, that she suffocated her brother. and then in a fit of remorse killed herself. It was a long buildup to it. I was, you know, I let her go on longer than I probably should have. At least it felt like that myself. And then, you know, you just have to get what answers you can, knowing that it's, I mean, she's not ever going to answer a question.

6:31No, and that was what was so frustrating. You know, why sit down and do this interview if you're not going to answer questions? Well, yes. Yes, and it's a good point, but also I wanted to get a proper feel for what her attitude, whether her beliefs were actually her beliefs or whether they're all made up and put on. Whether she is, in fact, delusional or whether she has a great grand strategy for somehow beating the rap. What was frustrating to me was she knew I didn't buy this story of hers for one second, but she was absolutely determined to filibuster through the 90 minutes and get that story told.

7:13She would take a little digression. She would stop and she wanted to tell an anecdote about Tylee and some illness that she had years ago. And it was all kind of working up, as I knew, to this conclusion. And that was frustrating because it took the time away from it. Yeah, it's like you've got a ticking clock. So you keep trying to break through that narrative. And that's when she would get annoyed with me and say the things she said about me. At one point, she says, she yells at you kind of like a raised voice, like, get your facts straight, Keith. And like, you don't. Like, you've been covering this story for five years.

7:56And then she says, you know, rumors, and she like elongates rumors, and then she starts singing, rumor has it. And then she says to you, I thought we were going to be friends. And then you say, I thought we are friends, aren't we? Like, was that sort of part of your tactic with her? You don't want to put somebody on the defensive any more than you have to, because you really do want answers to questions. Yeah. So that was fairly early on in our conversation. and then you recognize toward the end or I did anyway, toward the end of this conversation the time is ticking by, gotta get her on track here so then I got a lot more direct with her yes, there was definitely a moment where I saw kind of like stern Keith come out answer the darn question and you certainly were not her friend in that moment when you were trying to finally get her to give you some, like, a real answer.

8:54When we get back, we have an extra podcast exclusive clip from Keith's jailhouse interview with Lori.

9:08The police and the prosecutors, when asked about the motivations for these crimes, they would say that the motives are money, lust, and power. They, this really had not that much to do with actual religious principles. But why kill your children, though, if it's about money, lust, and power? Anybody who was stood in their way, they had to get them out of the way. And Chad conveniently had come up with this philosophy, this religious idea. And he came up with it. Well, he was a sexton in a cemetery. He dug graves. He had this notion that he was talking to dead people all the time and that the veil between life and death is really permeable and you could go back and forth and he could go to heaven and see Jesus and come back again.

9:57And if he declared that somebody had turned dark or had become a zombie or gave him a name like Ned Schneider, it meant that they had been possessed by evil, by the devil, and that in order to save their souls, they needed to be ushered across the veil. And that's a polite way of saying killed. With the children then, that's how they saw the children. That's how they saw the children. And that's, you know, so then Lori's saying to me in prison, well, you know, I see the children in my cell every night and we're, you know, we love each other and we're very close. That sort of thing, you know, it fits with the notion of what they were doing to these people and what their public reasoning behind it was.

10:46But again, the authorities don't really buy that. They think it's something else, something more venal. Well, as for, you know, whether it was Lori who was making these decisions or whether she was acting at the behest of Chad, she doesn't act at anybody's behest, was my opinion after talking to her. The police tended to believe that Chad was the prime manipulator. They manipulated each other. And she was a tremendously manipulative person. He came up with the ideas. But man, oh man, she has an ability to make somebody do what she wants them to do. And Keith, we actually have some extra sound from Lori talking about Chad, if we want to take a listen to that.

11:32How do you feel about Chad now? I love Chad like I love everybody. Like you love everybody? Well, I love Chad, of course. And I love everybody. Love him like a husband still? You're still in love with him? Absolutely. What was that that attracted you? I've loved him for eternities. Eternities. I have loved him for eternities in past, and I will love him for eternities in the future. So, why was it so important to get married to Chad when he was already married to Tammy? I didn't get married to Chad when he was married to Tammy, so I don't know what you're talking about. Well, but Tammy was ushered out of this existence, and the trial's conclusion was that she was murdered.

12:09So, let's go with if Tammy died of natural causes, right? But she didn't. But anyway, let's go with it. Let's go with it. Okay. Because I know the truth, and it's my knowledge, so let's go with it. So if Tammy died of natural causes, then what happened? I got married to Chad after his first wife, who was my friend, passed away. And you bought the engagement rings before, or the wedding rings before. That is an untrue statement. You don't know what you're talking about on that one. No, but there was proof that the rings were purchased. Of course there was. But sure, her excuse was that she bought them for Zulema, the woman who was married to Alex.

12:47So do Lori and Chad still speak, whether it's by phone or mail? Is there some communication there? Not able to, no. Chad being a death row, I don't think he gets to talk to people outside. They communicate extraterrestrially. Did she mention what kind of conversations they have? No, just that they love each other and that they see each other. And she will be, oh, and, you know, she fully expects to be exonerated. She got onto that track pretty quick as soon as we started talking about it. I don't know about that one. I don't know. She may have some wishful thinking there. Oh, absolutely. In my opinion, anyway.

13:25Yeah. It's interesting when you look back at Lori when, you know, in the days before all of this and just, you know, pretty, bubbly. I couldn't believe she was on Wheel of Fortune. Sure. And then you look at Laurie now. And Mrs. Texas, that was quite something. The beauty pageant. I mean, this woman, you know, she was poised to have a great life. And then you look at her now and you're like, what? What happened? Yeah, well, you kind of wonder about where she came from, too. And what surprises me and impresses me, frankly, in this story is Colby. Colby has come out of this so, you know, he's a really impressive guy.

14:12And he's trying to break that chain. It's still difficult for him, but he is. He's healing. He uses his podcast, I think, or his YouTube as a kind of a way of helping him. And it does help, apparently. Yeah, and he has a family, which is so nice. And I can imagine, given what he's been through, that I don't know him, but that he'll be a great dad. And he'll just work extra hard to make sure those kids have a good life. There's something called an ACE score, adverse childhood experiences. And they are a pretty good indicator of what somebody is going to be like later on in life, or at least the sorts of challenges that they will face.

14:56And I would think that Colby has a pretty high ACE score, and yet somehow he has come through it. Yeah, I really, that was like the bright spot, you know, in all of this. It's just to see him surviving. Up next, your questions from social media.

15:20This one was, wow, this one was a tough one. a lot of response from our viewers. I imagine. And we are going to dive into some questions that people have. And I'd love to hear what others thought, because I had a lot while I was watching it. Keith, Kat K on X. Oh my gosh, it's so funny that she's bringing up this question that I'm about to read, because I had the same question. How is she getting her hair dyed in prison? And she also had a lot of makeup on, too. And her hair was... She did. Her hair looked like it had been curled. Yes. Did you do that? Well, you know, back when she was going to court hearings in Idaho, she had to use candy and other kind of materials like that to put makeup on her face.

16:11Candy she could get at the tuck shop. But apparently they now sell certain basic beauty products, very basic stuff. But they do sell them in the little commissary they have for inmates at that women's jail in Phoenix. So that's how she colored her hair and did the makeup on her face. She curled her hair because they can't have hair curlers. They use towels, which they get wet and they roll their hair up in the towels and sleep in it that way. And that's how her hair got curly. I can't believe you know all this. Well, I asked her. Well, as someone who's done a few prison makeovers in my time at Dateline, I was definitely interested in that.

16:51So thank you, Kat K, for bringing that up. Mini PRNX, will there be another interview? Will there be a round two with Lori? Well, the jail said absolutely not. This was a rare, vanishingly rare event for them. They just don't grab such things. And there will not be another one, they said. This is it. You get your 90 minutes, which is actually more time than we often get in a jailhouse interview. Usually it's about an hour. Yeah. And that was it. But the jail was interested in helping us out. I think we're curious about her too, maybe, what she would say. So they allowed us to use a pretty large classroom to set up our gear in.

17:35And they allowed us the time to do it, which is plenty of time to do it. which is unusual also. Keith, we have an audio question from a fellow Canadian named Angela. Let's listen to Angela. Hi, Keith. Angela here. I just wanted to know if Lori said anything to you before or after the cameras were off and if she acted any differently. Thanks. Love the show. I don't know how you handle these people, but you do it so well. Good question. It is a good question. And no is the answer to the question. She was strategic from beginning to end, in my opinion. She came, she winked at the camera on the way.

18:14She explained in colorful terms why they wouldn't let her take off her blue handcuffs. And she was on stage from beginning to end. I did notice those blue handcuffs. I'd never seen that color before. Yeah. I don't know how she managed to get blue ones. Now we have another audio question from Jacqueline Marino Perez. Hi, this is Jacqueline, and I was wondering how Keith kept his cool while interviewing Lori Vallow. You did? Yeah, I don't know. I'm sorry. You kept my brain about me. You're just trying to figure out, okay, what do I do next to counter this problem that I'm confronting here? and that's where your head is so I you know people look I've been called names by all kinds of people as if you Andrea it just happens it's part of the job and it's not a big deal you don't take it personally they're just you know they're trying to they're trying to get the better of you in an interview situation and you don't want that to happen but at the same time you're not mad at them or anything they're just they are what they are yeah exactly okay this is a question from a viewer named Leanne Hi Dateline This is Leanne from Ohio.

19:32And my question for Keith is, did you actually learn anything new from your interview with Lori Daybell? Because it seemed as if no matter what you asked her, she just kept talking without saying anything. Thanks and keep up the great work. Well, you hit upon my great frustration from this interview is I really did want to learn some new things and she wasn't going to reveal them. But she did reveal something of herself, a little more of herself and what her character was all about. And so I learned some things from that. I think that the program was able to portray her as she appears to be. Really?

20:12I mean, she showed America and the world who she is, I think. So we will end, Keith, with a final audio question from MelanieAnn236onX. Okay. Keith, was Lori Vallow-Daybell the hardest interview that you've ever done? Right up there. And you've done a lot. You've done a lot, Keith. Yeah. I wouldn't say the hardest, but pretty close. I would interview her again. I mean, I would do it again. The time I spent with that woman was fascinating just to see that kind of character at play. Anything, Keith, you would do differently if you interviewed her again, knowing what you were up against when she walked in that room?

20:58Lots of things. I mean, you go in prepared for a certain kind of interview. It's not going to work out that way. And then you're dancing, right? You've got to, okay, now this is way different than I thought it would be or that I hoped it would be. So what do you do now? So then you're ad-libbing. The rest of the time, you're trying to figure it out, right? How can I get through to this person? Well, now she has shown me who she is. I would have a better idea how to do that, which is kind of why I'd like to do it again. Well, this one was one of the most interesting, fascinating, unique, outlandish, quirky prison interviews I've seen in a long time.

21:36So thank you, Keith, for bringing us that sort of exclamation mark on the end of, you know, this five years of covering this story. Well, thank you. Yes. I think this was something worth doing, even though it was frustrating. Definitely. And we do have a dot, dot, dot, because it's not over. There's still more court proceedings. She's going on trial at the end of March, charged with conspiracy to murder her fourth husband, Charles Vallow. It's never ending with her, is it? Mm-hmm. Keith, thank you so much for your time. And I know our viewers and listeners, this was definitely one that they wanted to hear your thoughts on.

22:12So thank you. Thank you. And that is it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC. Have a question for Talking Dateline? Leave it for us in a voicemail at 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured on a future episode. Or record yourself and send it to us via DM on social media. If you like this episode of Talking Dateline, be sure to check out Keith's original podcast series, Mommy Doomsday. He takes you through the twists and turns of Lori Vallow Daybell's case, starting with the disappearance of her children in 2019.

22:53From the mountains of Idaho to the shores of Kauai and beyond, it's a haunting story of death, devastation, and doomsday beliefs that captivated the nation. And coming up this Friday on Dateline, Blaine has an all-new two-hour episode. When a home alarm is tripped late at night in Yakima, Washington, police expect a robbery. But when they arrive at the scene, they find a woman shot to death. An investigation reveals a tangled web of friendships and affairs. But who among them could be the killer? Thanks for listening and see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.