Talking Dateline: Running Man

0:03Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I am here with my good friend Andrea Canning to talk about her episode, Running Man. Hi, Andrea. Hey, Plain. Okay, if you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed, and then we want you to come right back here. But just a quick recap, in 2023, when the remains of Ashley Schwalm were found in a burned out car at the bottom of a ditch, investigators wondered if this was a tragic accident or something far more sinister. They learned that her firefighter husband, James, had meticulously planned out his wife's murder.

0:37In this episode, we've got an extra clip of Andrea's interview with Samantha Jones, the executive director of the women's and children's shelter, My Friend's House. She'll talk more about the event held in Ashley's honor and how the Sunflower Fund supports victims of domestic violence. And later on, we will be joined by Dateline producer Lynn Keller to answer some of your questions from social media. So Andrea, let's talk Dateline. Let's do it. Before we even jump into the specifics of the episode, the thing that caught me immediately off the bat was seeing clips of young Andrea reporting in your hometown.

1:09That was the coolest thing. Yeah. I mean, I covered that area. I was based at a station in Barrie, Ontario, which is an hour north of Toronto, but Collingwood, Blue Mountain was part of our coverage area. So I had really come home at that point to be a young reporter. And so it was interesting to go down memory lane. And we went back to my old station and interviewed a reporter there, did a stand-up. The editor, who was still there from when I worked there, put together a bunch of clips for us. And so, yeah, it was really nice to be back there after all those years. And literally right as I walked in the door of the station, a cameraman that I used to work with all the time was just coming in from shooting something.

1:55And I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Like all these years later. That's incredible. There's always something special about the first station. For those of us who are in news, like you always go back and look at those old clips and it's like, oh gosh, I was wearing that? Or what was my hair doing? Oh my gosh, yeah. When you look at some of those clips, you're just like, I tried to pick the best ones because there were some really bad ones, which people might've enjoyed as well. But, you know. Well, it was very, very cool to see. And then we saw that sign, what was it, Canning Drive or Canning Way?

2:24That's Gord Canning Drive. So that's my dad. So he ran the ski resort there for decades and they named a street after him. That's beautiful. I love that. Well, with all of that as the backdrop, this certainly made for a very, very, very fascinating story. How did you find out about this story? This was not one of those ones, you know, that it was like, oh, in the story meeting, this was my phone was blowing up with, you know, texts and calls. And oh, my gosh, did you hear about this story? I was hearing from all kinds of friends and relatives from the area who, you know, could not believe it. I mean, it's just to think like the way we start the episode, you know, to think that something that we cover all the time, Blaine, could happen that close to my house.

3:15You know, it just was unbelievable. Absolutely. It truly was. And we even got to meet one of your high school friends in this episode, too. Yes. Yes. Well, so I ran into Anne at a New Year's Eve party last year, and we were talking about the case, and I asked her if she would be a part of it. She had the privilege of knowing Ashley because they were neighbors. And so for me, when it comes to the victim, Ashley, it was amazing how our lives had intersected, but we didn't know each other. and so it was just it was just like bizarre when you when you start looking into a case and you realize that there's a million connections yeah and I'm now I hate the fact that I've gotten to know her family because of this but at the same time I'm so grateful to know them now because they're they're such an amazing family and my heart is just broken for them because I'm just seeing this story on a much more personal level this time and, you know, to see what they've gone through and what they're going through and, you know, going through this process with them.

4:22It's surreal. That has to bring a new layer to doing a story like this. Absolutely does. Well, let's talk about this episode, Andrea. I want to start with the crime scene because obviously that's where everything begins. But just this notion, there was a portion when you were doing the drive-along interview and you said, and you heard from the investigator who said, I was immediately struck by just how hot that fire was. I knew immediately that that's not something that's normal. That really stood out to me, that just how massive that fire had to have been. Yeah. I mean, the flames, they said, were about 30 feet high.

4:56And this car went right down into a ditch. And then the flames were so high that they could be seen going up past the road. I mean, fire and just the knowledge of fire plays such a big role in this. But obviously, with her husband being a fire captain. With all that he knows about fire and everything, he staged it, but almost staged it too well, right? Like, it wasn't likely that a car crash like that would have caused so much, such a fire. And the fact that he left his lighter inside and thought that everything would be... I mean... That was unbelievable to me. Initially, they said, well, wait a second.

5:33Like, yes, the lighter's in there, but that is, you know, his car, right? So it could be... Theoretically. We know he confessed. So clearly it was a mistake. But the dad in the story, Ian, says, you know, he doesn't watch Dateline. Like, he made all these mistakes. You know, this is a survivable crash. You know, it was like there was no high impact that they could tell. I mean, there were so many red flags about that fire. I mean, you can only think maybe he thought it would burn out before anyone saw it. you know and then it would take a while for i don't know like i don't it's like what he did all these things like he made it so complicated but then at the same time it was such an imperfect crime he made some obvious mistakes but it's so sad though because regardless of how he carried out this crime or how he was trying to cover it up like ashley's gone yeah you know what a mess he's made of his this amazing life that he had and it was so self-centered i mean the the The children, like we could do a whole episode on that in and of itself.

6:42I think that what got me, one, knowing how young the kids are, watching their dad's arrest, the daughter hearing what happened, like hearing these, I mean, that's just terrible. How about the teacher call? Yes, yes. Like, wasn't that unbelievable to hear that? The teacher called for me. And then seeing the son, the silhouette of the son as James was kind of scoping out the place where he would park the car was like, you took your son along, you're talking, you're having father-son talk while you're planning to kill his mother. It's sick, Blaine. There are a lot of just really, obviously, creepy things that we hear in Dateline episodes, but this one had to have been close to the top of the list.

7:21That was terrible. All right, when we get back, we've got an extra clip of Andrea's interview with Samantha Jones from the Women and Children's Shelter, My Friend's House. We'll hear more about Ashley's memorial and how her family hopes to bring awareness and help victims of domestic violence.

7:44you've talked about the family a lot and just becoming close to them yeah um let's talk about the investigation so when james came in and mapped out the route that he took to walk the dog i thought okay it's it's not going to be him that's just kind of a red herring we're going to go in another direction it'll be somebody else and even i mean it seemed like that is almost kind of the iron cloud. Okay, this way, this is the way I went. Camera, show me. And we're all good. It sure looked like it. Yeah. You know, didn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And they, Sean Glassford, the detective said, you know, the guys were saying he deserves an Oscar if he's lying because he was that good.

8:20Right. And usually we always hear from detectives, oh, he was cold or he wasn't showing the right emotion or there was something off. And they were like, no, like this guy looked the part to a T, you know? And then, of course, they go and they do the videos. He's not there where he says he's going to walk the dog. And then we go into their little experiment. And what's interesting is they enlist a colleague who I actually met at the OPP detachment in Collingwood. He was a very nice guy, very big fit guy, the runner. And right there in the interview, I was like, my husband does that same run. He leaves early in the morning and he meets us at the Tim Hortons in town or the Starbucks.

9:07And we get our coffee or whatever and we drive him home. But that's his run. So that was like, I was like, wow, you could have called my husband. He could have done it for you. Right. He could have done the experiment. He could have tested it out. That is so funny. I mean, showing the running man, right? Obviously, investigators would, well, not obviously, but you'd look at that and say, okay, that's our guy. Someone who's running. We see somebody running from the scene. We learned more about James, right? Like obviously somebody who's very fit, could he have made that run? But as I was watching it, I found myself really still trying to think of who else it could have possibly been other than James.

9:43I just didn't think it was him until it was very obvious. Yeah, and also when you throw in what happened with the affair, unfortunately, it does bring in other people. Yes. Possibly into the mix that they have to look at. Yeah. Um, and I know that, you know, talking to Ashley's family, she regretted what happened. She was trying to save her marriage. Um, and that was, you know, that was sad that, that, that happened. And, um, but you know, she was trying to do the right thing. And the thing that I was thinking too, is like, I'm, you know, I never met Ashley sadly, but when, when you, I would only imagine that when you have an affair, there's something broken.

10:25Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. So, like, not excusing an affair, of course, but, like, there's something at the root of that. And I could only imagine that it has to do with, you know, with what she had at home. You know, this is where, like, domestic violence comes in, and there were no obvious signs to friends and family. No 911 calls had ever been made, you know, about domestic violence. Anne talked about that one moment where James, you know, lost his cool a little bit and was like, you get home now. You know, but nobody, unfortunately, was able to have those conversations with her if there was something going on.

11:09And this is all, you know, just kind of speaking in generalities. But, I mean, you can only imagine that she was searching probably for something. and other pieces that oftentimes it's difficult to open up to someone and say, okay, this is the person that I chose and chose to be with. And now it's not a great person, right? Right. I mean, do we want to introduce that clip, Blaine? Because it goes more in depth. Yeah. Let's talk about this memorial this past September. It was with my friend's house, a women and children's shelter there in Ontario. And they did a memorial hike and raised money for a fund that they created in Ashley's honor.

11:45And it was called the Sunflower Fund. So let's listen to this clip. It's of Samantha Jones from my friend's house talking about that day and the fun that was created in Ashley's honor. We've birthed what is called the Sunflower Foundation, which is in honor of Ashley. And it goes directly to our child and youth programming. And it's to support children who are accessing our services to do the fun stuff like camp or things that they may not be able to do. So it goes towards that, but then also seek therapeutic services and help families out who are engaged with us. And last year, we serviced 116 kids that are coming from homes where there's domestic violence.

12:23You had an event in honor of Ashley? It was her family's sort of a memorial celebration of life, if you will. It was a beautiful day. There was a hike for her over in Duntroon, and all her family was there, friends, police services. It was quite something to see everyone come together to honor and celebrate her life, Because I will say that what was really shown that day is what a beautiful soul she was and how loved she was and how much people just want her memory to be lived through her children and how they want her remembered. We see it so often on Dateline, these tragedies happen, and then the family wants something to propel goodness forward, you know, from the name of their loved one.

13:12And this is one of those situations where domestic violence is now something that they want to help combat. Yeah, no, absolutely. And that was one thing for us because these things happen and there's lots of families that are affected by it, but they have intentionally reached out in a way to build awareness so that what happened to their Ashley doesn't happen again. This is, like we said, a lot of families want to do good, right? Out of tragedy. and just a really quick story that I discovered because of Ashley. So my mom passed away a long time ago and they had like a sale with her jewelry and her clothing.

13:52And all these years, I thought that the money had gone to the Special Olympics because my mom was involved in the Special Olympics. And I asked my dad, I said, do you ever, does your girlfriend, his girlfriend Shirley, I said, does she work with my friend's house? And he said, well, she donates. He said, so do I. I said, oh, really? He goes, yeah, I've been donating for years. And he goes, and your mom, the sale of all your mom's jewelry and clothes went to my friend's house. And I said, not the Special Olympics? And he said, no, my friend's house. So it was like a revelation for me. I was like, I had no idea.

14:25So just to hear something like that, and I didn't know she was involved with my friend's house, my mom. Of course. Oh my gosh. What a beautiful, full circle moment. That's unbelievable. It's another connection we were talking about. So many. Absolutely. Absolutely. But that's a beautiful service and that's just a beautiful thing to do in her honor as well, in Ashley's honor. I mean, we talk about this, all the different things that come together in this story. One piece we didn't talk about is once everything came out, James and being with Alexandra, that was honestly a twist that I didn't see coming.

15:06Right. Right. I mean, for her to be the one who said, okay, you have to tell your husband about this or I will to flipping it around and they're the ones who are together. So in this case, you know, Alexandra and James never had a, like, it never got physical from what we understand. But it definitely seemed like through police and through their texts and whatnot that they found that there were feelings and that James wanted more. But Alexandra said, you know, you're married. And so he said, well, I'm going to take care of that. Unfortunately, no one knew exactly, you know, what he was talking about with that, which is not good, how this whole thing ended.

15:51They said he was, they believed he was lining up the next Mrs. Schwamm, which is very disturbing. It's disturbing. It's scary, considering what happens. And why him? Like you're a firefighter. Like you're, he's posting things, a domestic violence post, right? Like fighting domestic violence. He is that leader. He's helping people. I think everyone just, you felt that devastation throughout the community just of how blindsided, you know, everyone was. And even like his fellow firefighters that we interviewed, Brittany and Jordan, they were defending him at first because they were like, no, they didn't know all the details.

16:31right? And they're like, no, he could not. He could never have done this. And then they find out like all the details and they're like, oh my gosh, like what? This was the person. Yeah, we were comforting. And Jordan told us this story about how they finally got some therapy for the firefighters because they were so just screwed up from all of this and they were all sitting there and nobody wanted to talk. And then finally, Jordan was like, fine, I'll go. And then he said it was like, after that, the blood gate opened up of tears and why and questions. And he's like, I've never seen grown men get this worked up about something together.

17:13Yeah. Yeah. That's got to be difficult too for all of them, right? I mean, just to watch that and see that unfold. Did you get the sense? I mean, as I was watching this, the theme that came to my mind was just this almost obsession that he seemed to have with empowered appearance, right? Yes. I mean, like, oh, everything looks perfect and couldn't just say to his wife, hey, I want a divorce. Or how, you know, as Ashley's dad kept saying, how hard that news of that affair hit him. The fact that he was, you know, it was a blow to his ego and that type of thing that he just couldn't get over. Yeah.

17:46I mean, he said, again, I always say, I'm not a doctor. I don't know if he's ever been diagnosed. Sure. But everyone, you know, says he had those narcissistic tendencies. And it was really interesting to talk to Brittany afterwards and Jordan and how they felt so manipulated by him, you know, because everything that they believed about him was not true, you know, about who the quality of him as a person. And they all were like, how do I ever trust anyone again? You know, I would, I trusted him with my life, you know, like you run into a burning building with this person. And so now, you know, you just look back and you're second guessing and you're like wondering like why did, you know, even Lindsay, when this Ashley sister, when she found out he'd been arrested, she like had a moment where she felt bad for him.

18:37And she's like, it's so twisted. Like, you know, he's family. She was being so honest in this interview and like raw. Yes. And she's like, that was what I felt like in that moment. And she's kind of like, how messed up is that? But it's real. That's a real thing. Something that stood out to me about what she said too was, you're going to spend the rest of your life paying for this when she talked about that affair. That was just so, it was chilling. It was sad. And she didn't mean it. Of course. With what happened, she just meant, you're going to pay for this because he's going to make you pay for it.

19:13He's going to hold it over your head, right? Not with murder. Of course. Never did that ever enter her mind, Lindsay. Yeah. Well, this was a fantastic episode. Thank you. Of course, of course. All right, after the break, we will be joined by Dateline producer Lynn Keller to answer some of your questions from social media.

19:38Hi, everyone. Welcome back. We are so lucky to be joined by Dateline super producer Lynn Keller. Hi, Lynn. Hi, Blaine. I want to ask you, I'm so excited to have you here. Is there anything in all of the mini Dateline episodes you've produced, what sticks out the most about this one to you? Well, first of all, I've worked with Andrea for the past 13 years, and I've heard about Collingwood. I've heard about her town. And it was just kind of a little surreal to go there. And I remember, because I got there before Andrea did it, and I was driving, and on my GPS, it said Gord Canning Drive, which is her father's name.

20:13Right. Our hotel was right near her dad's street. It was like we had to drive on her dad's street to get there. So it was really nice. It was nice to see. And I got to meet her dad, who's amazing. And it was just a really, that was a really nice part of this such tragic story. I love that. I love that. And I know that obviously one of the jobs of the producer is to scout out all the locations where we're going to be shooting. At what point did you realize that even though you're doing a story in Canada, you're going to have to travel to the Bahamas to shoot part of this story. Well, I knew that early on because when I first called Ashley Schwamm's father, he was in the Bahamas.

20:57And so when I talked to him, he was telling me all about where he lived. And so I knew that we were probably going to get to go to the Bahamas, but it rained. It rained almost the whole time we were there. Oh no. Actually, when Andrea went out to do the walk and talk with him, it was like a It was like a moment where it stopped raining. So we got to do that shot. And then as soon as they were done, it started to rain again. Oh, gosh. But it's still beautiful. Really beautiful there. Talk about good luck, though. Just getting that one little sliver of sunlight. It was gorgeous. And it was such an important moment in our story, too, because it was a pivotal moment in the future of what would happen, where she told her husband about the affair.

21:39So let's talk about these comments. As you can expect, as you might expect, we got a lot of social media comments. A number of them were focused on Ashley and James's dog, interestingly enough. So I want to read some of those. This one was from Brenda Thorpe. She said, I watched last night. I saw that the suspect left the house to walk the dog at 5 a.m., but when the cameras caught him running back home, I didn't see the dog. What did I miss? Where was the dog? That was something that was explained in the episode, though. Just kind of bring us up to speed. Yeah, it was explained, but it was quick.

22:08So you would have to really pay attention. So the dog's name is Rocco, and he's since been rehomed, if anyone's interested. And what happened was the police believe that James shut off his, he remotely shut off the ring camera, the blink camera from his front door so that he could go back into the house, drop off the dog, get in the car and drive away. So that's how they, he definitely put the dog back in the house. Yeah. Well, a few more questions about the crime scene and evidence, specifically the car at the bottom of the ditch. So Laura and Tom Burchill write, he must have taken his time driving the car down the embankment and having no footprints leaving the car.

22:50Someone else asked if the fire melted the snow, therefore footprints wouldn't have been visible. I did have a question about that, too. Well, there was so much snow that you wouldn't see footprints because the snow would have covered it. but what they could see is sort of like they described it as track marks. And if you watch the episode, you can see we sort of push into it a little bit. It's like little, you know, like a track through snow, but it didn't show footprints because snow had come over the top. But there was definitely evidence that someone had left the car. That's the scene. Okay.

23:23Sarah Anderson writes, did anyone else notice that the guy running had on a light-colored shirt and light hat? And when the husband was throwing things away at his work, he was wearing a light-colored shirt and a light hat. I don't know about that because I feel like it's really black and white. I don't know that you could see color. I see what they're saying that it was like it did seem light. And maybe, maybe, but the police never put that together. They never thought, I think that. But here's an interesting thing. They never found the backpack that the man was wearing. and they had had James on surveillance and they one day tracked him to a certain place that was where they shot the Schitt's Creek show where that old motel was.

24:11And so they feel like that is where he dumped it. Oh, wow. Wild. Okay. Yeah. You know, one of the things in this episode that really pulled at my heartstrings, everyone's heartstrings was their children, Ashley and James' children. Big part of this episode. But there was one part that really was just notable. That was when the teacher called investigators. Janice Pennington wrote a comment about that and wrote, the teacher's information was critical to this case. I admire that teacher so much. She had the child's interest at heart and is a hero for contacting the police department. What's interesting about her is that when she made that call, she didn't know that Ashley had died.

24:50So her whole thing was, it was really bothering her. After the daughter said she heard her mom fall down the steps, she didn't see her in the morning. So she was asking the police to go to Ashley's house to do a welfare check. That's what that call was. Oh, wow. Yeah. So she was really going above and beyond. Really, really great teacher. Talk about listening to her instincts and just really, and acting on them too. Yeah. I mean, we talk about the children. Do we know much about them, how they're doing today? Yeah. everything that I've heard is that they're doing extremely well. First of all, the kids are really amazing.

25:31Everyone loved them. They were just really, really great kids. And now they're being very well taken care of and they're thriving. That's beautiful. I'm so glad to hear that. Another question that we got was about Ashley's family, specifically her mother. But Sue Nunn writes, did they mention where Ashley's mom was? Is she deceased? They did not interview her, so she must be out of the picture somehow. Any insight? Yeah, she died in 2004 of cancer. Okay. So Ashley was probably early 20s when her mom died, and it was a huge, huge loss for their family. Of course. Ian, the dad, talks about, it sounds like they had an incredible marriage.

26:08He just loved her so much. Yeah, it was a big hole in their family. Of course. And Ashley's dad mentions how similar Ashley was to her mother. It sounds like they were very close. Yes. I think Ian's on the tough side, Lindsay, the sister, and then the mom and Ashley are kind of like maybe softer around the edges. Yeah. Well, Lynn, thank you so much to you and Andrea for bringing the story to us and doing it so beautifully and so delicately. And it was great to have you on today. Thanks for talking Dateline with me. Thanks so much. And that's it for talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have a question about Dateline, please DM us a video on social media at Dateline NBC for a chance to be featured in a future episode of Talking Dateline.