Talking Dateline: The Family Plot

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1:07Hi there, I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Talking Dateline. And we are joined today by the illustrious Josh Mankiewicz. Actually, the real Josh Mankiewicz, as opposed to some, you know, fakery Josh Mankiewicz, which I've been seeing on social media lately. I'm Josh Mankiewicz. I'm Josh Mankiewicz. Will the real Josh Mankiewicz please stand up? I think an argument can be made that that's the real Josh Mankiewicz. Well, wait a minute. You're the fake-y guy. That's right. The other one was the real one. He looked like a nice fella. So I'm here in Boston to meet in person somebody that I really only know from the online world.

1:48And here's the thing. His name is Joshua Mankiewicz. Alert viewers of Dateline may have noticed that's also my name. So I thought it was time that we meet. Josh Mankiewicz. Josh Mankiewicz. Josh Mankiewicz. Good to meet you. Nice to meet you. You're taller than I expected. You're taller than almost any other Mankiewicz that I know. Now, anybody who has not seen this reunion of the two Josh Mankiewiczes on social media might be able to find it. Anyway, we have Josh Mike who wants to talk about the episode, our season premiere of our 35th season. It was called The Family Plot. The story begins with a man shot to death in the foyer, I guess, or the hall of his in-law's house, mother-in-law's house.

2:36And then there's a long and twisted investigation to see what happened. And I will say that from very early on in this episode, nobody else may have noticed it, but I sure did, That young detective, A, was very impressive, and B, looked so much like a guy you could see on Scandinavian murder mystery stories on television, named Olofer Olofsson. Have you ever seen him? Oh, he's the star of Trapped, which is… Exactly that. Iceland. It's set in Iceland so good. But the dogginess and the sincerity were also shared traits. And I was, you know, I was an admirer of that. You did a great job. Yeah. Well, anyway, before we get to the story, why don't you listen to the episode if you haven't yet.

3:25You can find it right below this one or stream it on Peacock and then come right back here. And when you come back, we'll have more from Tracy Grist's police interview. The night Matt was killed and later we'll answer some of your questions from social media. All right. Let's talk Dateline. This was a good one. This was just, I love the investigative part of it. it really followed this investigative trail. What was your impression of the thing when you began to hear the details? Well, I mean, it is mind-boggling when you sort of look at this. I mean, they lured this guy from California to Utah.

4:03Mom sort of involved as many members of her family as she could in doing that. And they all kind of, I guess, did what she said. I guess they were kind of used to that over the years. And then they tell this phony story that Matt, the victim in this, you know, came in aggressively and pushed Kevin up against a wall and he had a knife. And like instantly, you know, there's things wrong with that scenario. I mean, it fell apart from the beginning. I mean, Kevin, the brother who fired the shot, the shots, he was, Matt was shot seven times. He was taken into custody that night, despite his argument that it was a self defense shooting.

4:45The cops didn't believe that for a second. And Kevin, I think, was never out of custody again. Like, he went in instantly and that was the end of that. And then the only question was, who else was involved? The hapless Kevin, I think you could say. And by the way, if they thought they were going to get away with it, that plot started crumbling from the beginning. You know, he's shot through the wrist, but he's still holding the knife. He's holding the knife in his wrong hand. He took off his shoes before he came into the living room, right? Something that home invaders generally don't do. Well, they clearly were a bunch of amateur murderers, no question about that.

5:22I think the plan was to just make it sound like Matt was an angry, you know, vengeful guy. And he, you know, came over, barged in. And, you know, they'd taken the screen door off to make it easier for him to come in the house. And she says to him in the calls, like, you're coming in, right? You're going to come in. I need your help with the kids, you know, getting all their stuff. And the kids' stuff was not packed, which it would have been if Matt's going to collect them and they're going to go home. Of course. Everything about this fell apart. You know, there are blankets on the furniture to keep blood spatter off it.

6:00That's not something you generally do. Kevin, who fires the shot, has a holster in his pocket. I don't think you walk around your house at night with your gun in a holster on your hip unless you're planning to or expecting to use it. That definitely stood out for police. No question. That's the old Chekhov notion that if a gun makes an appearance, it's going to be used in the next act. And it was indeed in this story. Yeah. But I'm interested in the architecture of this family. My impression was, and I'd like to know your impression, is that it all went back, as you said, to the mother. What was your sense of her character, her personality, maybe her psychiatric quirks?

6:46she had gotten away with a lot of crimes smaller than this as far as we know but she'd gotten away with a lot of crimes like all her life some of them she justified by saying she needed to feed her family so that's why she shoplifted but she also stole money from her friends from people she knew regularly and so i said we can no longer be friends tracy denied stealing from terry but seemed fine with that long friendship being over, as long as she didn't get into trouble. She has a way of talking her way out of things that blows my mind. So what I think she thought is that I am smarter than law enforcement kind of in the aggregate.

7:31And if we tell a plausible story, we'll get away with this too. Now, the issue of why Matt Rustelli needed to be executed is it can't be explained. The only issue is to save her daughter, Kate, some headache and heartache and financial responsibility in a divorce. But like, like, like this was not a terrible guy. I mean, mom didn't like it. But like, there was nothing about Matt Rustelli that should have made anybody think let's kill him. So the mother was not only a thief and a lawbreaker, but she was, it seems to me, or at least from what I could discern, remarkably manipulative. She had a Svengali-like power over her kids.

8:22She reminds me of Sante Kimes, about whom we did a number of stories. Yeah. And the similarity also includes the fact that the children are still besotted with their mother. The sons in Kym's case still talk about how much they love her, even though she did all these dreadful things and made them do dreadful things. And I was fascinated by Tara Lynn and how she, you know, wanted to believe that there was nothing terribly nefarious going on. Tara Lynn is a wonderful character. And also, I think basically a very good person. I think nobody wants to believe the worst about their family. And I think Tara Lynn has a lot in common with a lot of other families.

9:08I think it's very hard to believe that this mom that you've seen sort of get away with little things over the years has now graduated to the big time and is doing a murder. And, you know, when Kevin was arrested and then Kate, I think Terrilyn still expected very quickly that the police were going to realize they'd made two giant mistakes and set them free. You know, you can see her in this episode sort of starting to change the way she thinks about her mom and sort of what hell she sort of wrought on her brother and her sister. and other people in the family too. And, I mean, that was the huge value of Terrilyn, is that she's sort of changing her opinion, maybe at the same time the audience is kind of realizing, wow, this is a lot bigger than I thought.

10:04And then, you know, at the end, I think Terrilyn came to and does realize the way things really are. Now, you know, I mean, there was, there are people in this story, in the Ristelli family who believe that Terrilyn has some culpability here for which she's never been charged. But there really is no evidence that Terrilyn had anything to do with this, except it was her idea, apparently, to put the air tag in Matt's truck. But that was at the time when she believed that Kate was escaping an abusive relationship. So that kind of made sense in that context. Her older sister and her mother kept telling her again and again what an awful, awful person the husband was and that he was dangerous and that if you're going to leave this man, you better do it without announcing it because if you announce it, he might kill you.

10:59I mean, it was that kind of serious allegation. And why wouldn't she believe it? You know, she wasn't. Right. I mean, nobody wants to believe the worst about their family. All right. Well, speaking of Tracy, when we come back after this little break, we'll hear more from Tracy's police interview the night Matt was killed.

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12:58How does the Adelson case intersect with this one? And how did you find out about it? You know, we were already interested in this story. But then we found out that Tracy, the mom, had searched online. The cops found this on her devices. Had searched online. New Dateline episode on the Adelson case. You know, various searches about Donna Adelson. And, you know, the two cases are so similar, right? I mean, there's a divorce. There's a contentious custody battle. Now, in this case, the divorce hadn't even been filed yet, right? And it was just sort of thinking down the road to, like, what's going to happen if there is a divorce and where are we going to live and who's going to get custody and where are the kids going to be?

13:52But there was, in this case, an impending divorce and an impending custody battle. And there was an actual one with the Adelson's. But in the same vein, it is the mom, the matriarch of the family, Donna in Florida and Tracy in Utah, who sort of puts this conspiracy in motion and involves other people, some members of the family. In this case, it was all members of the family. But these two cases are remarkably, stunningly familiar. And, you know, look, I mean, sort of my, you know, the question I keep coming back to is when I say to the prosecutor, did they miss the part of our story where those people get caught and convicted?

14:35And he just kind of shakes his head and says, I think that Tracy thought that she could do it better than Don Adelson. But there's also something where I've seen it before, and I don't really wish to cast dispersions on mothers-in-law, but there are certain people who do not like, whether it's father-in-law, mother-in-law, do not like the person who's marrying into the family. Sure. And that dislike will get to the point where something has to be done about that person. And, I mean, you just see how it all developed. Yeah. Now, in that, this family, right, and Matt's family, they have a lot in common, right?

15:17There are plenty of situations in which one or both families believe that this marriage between their children shouldn't have happened and should end. And that is going on all over the United States. And that is also where, you know, sometimes, you know, manipulation of children by their parents for their own ends happens, right? Sure. You know, your mother and I have thought a lot about this, and we think that you and so-and-so should not be together anymore. And I think that you are, this is a lost cause for you, son or daughter, and, you know, you should get out. I think that goes on all the time.

16:03you know, parents sort of trying to run their lives by remote control, run the lives of their kids. But for it to go to murder, well, that's a little different. Yeah. That's something you don't see every day. It's a reach. Yeah. All right. I was fascinated also with Kate's behavior. I wouldn't have imagined it, but her infidelities were kind of stunning. How long did it take after he was killed, before she was out there looking for him? I mean, Matt wasn't even in the ground when she was going on her first date. I mean, first of all, there's no evidence that we know of that Matt Rostelli was unfaithful to his wife during their marriage.

16:44That certainly didn't come out. There is plenty of evidence that Kate was stepping out all the time on him as the years went by. And then, you know, right? After Matt is shot to death in her mom's living room, right? And she has to see his body as she leaves the house, right? This is assuming that she has nothing to do with it, right? She's still going out on a date, like, within a week. I have to say, that is a coldness that I'm, maybe I should be familiar with it, but I'm not. No, that's a new one on me, that kind of speed with which the behavior begins. Yeah. And you would think that she would be aware that maybe people might be keeping track of her activities.

17:33That's one thing that you sense that they sort of didn't think about was, you know, a murder investigation doesn't end the night the person is killed and the body taken away. What Kate was thinking is sort of hard to fathom. um i think she was recording matt's her phone calls with matt because she thought it was going to turn up in court someday as evidence in a divorce case why she kept those recordings i don't understand i i i mean this this was not an impossible plot to unravel i mean the evidence was pretty much sitting there on their devices. And I would like to point out, police did not get all those devices the first day.

18:28There were several days went by when those devices and all that damaging information was still in the, it was still the property of Tracy and Kate. Now, again, if you delete that stuff, a seasoned digital forensic examiner might be able to recover it or at least reveal that it had something like that had been deleted. So, I mean, there is that. But there clearly was a sort of disconnect from the evidence that existed to sort of Kate and Tracy believing, well, we're home free. And even if we're not home free, Kevin's going to take the fall, not us. Well, that was fascinating how not only would Kevin take the fall, but maybe he'd kill himself afterwards.

19:10And that was okay with the mother? They were sort of ready to sacrifice him. I mean, the sense you get from listening to them is that they saw Kevin as damaged, an asset to be sort of used the way they wanted to without any concern for his welfare or future, and essentially expendable. And, you know, he's Tracy's son, just like Kate and Carolyn are her children. It's horrifying, frankly, to think about a mom thinking about her kids like that. But that is apparently where we are. Yeah, I guess so. Then that phone call from jail that Kevin revealed that he was in part of the plot. Let me remind all viewers and listeners of something that is very widely known in criminal justice work, which is when you make a phone call when you're incarcerated, you, Keith, I think might particularly want to pay attention to this, just because I, you know.

20:23Right. There is a placard on the wall in nearly every correctional facility that I have ever seen that says, essentially, your phone call is not private. It's being recorded, and it's going to be listened to by other people, something to that effect. Like this is not, do not think of this as just private line to the outside. The only time you really have any privacy is when you're speaking with your attorney. But you're talking to anybody else in your family or any one of your friends, they're listening. And I think Kevin thought that because he had already been acquitted of conspiracy, right, that he could then essentially confess to it, which is what he did.

21:08and you know if he makes that call before the verdict well then that's evidence it comes in he gets convicted right the um the character i like in addition to um your young detective was the brother um mark we had two brothers but yeah mark was the mark mark was the one that yeah was primarily in the piece both seemed like fine people but but there was something about mark that really got under your skin. He's also, he's a very good guy. And I think, you know, as is frequently the case when this kind of thing happens, people are left with sadness and anger and regret. Because, you know, he hadn't spoken to his brother in a while because the Kate thing was so unpleasant.

22:03and he was like, you know, I just can't deal with this. I don't know that he said these words to Matt, but I think his feeling was, when you finally deal with this cancer in your life, which is your wife, then we're going to have a relationship again. And again, that is an understandable thing. You cannot fault anyone for wanting to protect themselves and their family and their kids from sort of the psychological damage of being exposed to somebody in your life that is sort of damaging to others, right? Exposing them to this other terrible relationship that's playing out in front of them. uh so i think he thought like look you know when you get right with your life um i'll we'll be back and and then you know matt's gone and i think he's thinking it was oh you know i should have called him well i mean i i understand that i don't think it would have changed anything but it it's a it's a it's a very understandable reaction sure it is and now he raises the children which uh now Now he's got man's kids.

23:23And, you know, I mean, that's telling you what kind of person he is. Right? Because that more than whatever he did with that relationship with his brother and Kay, stepping up now and raising man's kids, like that tells you who he is. You know, that great old expression that Murphy came up with, it's not about the murder, it's about the marriage. Right. It applies so well, but it is shorthand. The murder is about so much more than just the marriage. It's about all kinds of, you know, psychiatric difficulties that too many people face in life. You know, a guy I know is a homicide detective says that he can classify all murders into the motive.

24:18is money, love, or pride, right? It's I'm doing this for the insurance money or I'm doing this because I don't love you anymore, but I do love this person and I want to be with them now. Or it's pride. And this is pride. There's no financial windfall here for anybody with Matt Rostelli being killed. This is not about love. Kate was not in love with somebody else. Yeah, I kept waiting for the insurance payout that there was going to be some several million dollar policy or something. This appears to be about pride, power, and control, which was sort of who Tracy was and who she'd been for a long time, I think.

25:03We've talked about Tracy, but we also have more from her interview with police the night Matt was killed. At this point, investigators are still trying to figure out what happened, but the officer already seems to think Tracy knows more than she is telling him. So he's on to her. Let's listen. I am so in shock.

25:29Did his parents know? Did someone call? I assume someone has at this point. I've only been here with you, to be honest, so all that information I don't even know myself. So just to be like candid, I kind of feel like you do know a little bit more than you're letting on. Nope. Okay. It was, he appeared when I was in the kitchen. I guess I'm more talking about with kind of stuff with Kevin. With Kevin? Nope. Not at all? No idea where he was. No. Okay. Okay, well again, honestly, it's the best policy that comes to us. I almost knew nothing. Well, I just wanted to come in here and see if you did remember anything, because again, like I said, I know you were saying a lot of I don't knows, so I just wanted to see if you remembered anything else and talk it with a little bit, but nothing comes to mind at all.

26:34I interacted with Matt for like maybe three seconds. and I didn't see Kevin and Matt went around the corner and by the time I got I don't even know I didn't see anything all I heard was noise what were the noises that you were hearing? the shots there was no conversation no confrontation at all not that I heard gotcha honesty is the best policy Yeah, not apparently in that family. No, apparently not. I mean. Yeah. Fascinating to listen to her answering questions from the officers. The soft-spoken, calm, composed sort of demeanor that made it sound like she was almost angelic. Doesn't sound like a murderer, does she?

27:27Yeah. Yeah, doesn't sound like a murderer. No, she's got a whole act. I mean, it's not hard to see why she sort of got away with things and was able to kind of talk her way out of trouble repeatedly. And it's a couple of things. One is it's sort of that persuasive, gentle manner that she has, right? And she is smart. She is not a dumb person. I mean, they made some dumb mistakes, but she's not dumb. No. Well, I can see why this tale of family dysfunction would be the season premiere. It's quite a story. Where does it, you know, among family stories you have covered, how does this one rate? I would say right near the top.

28:15I mean, it is mind-boggling. Well, when we come back, let's have a look at some of the social media questions that we got from this episode.

28:57We'll be right back. Offer not available in all states. Terms apply. See Fanatic app for details. Plan B made over-the-counter emergency contraception legal more than 20 years ago. It's a safe, effective backup birth control option that helps prevent pregnancy before it starts by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is the number one OBGYN recommended brand and the only one you can find at all major retailers in all 50 U.S. states. There's no minimum age requirement and you don't need an ID to buy it. You can order it through DoorDash and other major delivery platforms, too. That's freedom to be used as directed.

29:31Hey, Chicagoland, the Wayfair store is in your neighborhood at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Finally, you can feel the fabric, sit on the sectionals, and even open the refrigerators. Plus, our in-store designers will help you bring it all together with free one-on-one design support for any project on any budget. Yep, we said free. Oh, and did we mention the cafe? So what are you waiting for? Come see all that's in store. Visit the Wayfair store today at Edens Plaza in Wilmette. Wayfair, every style, every home.

30:04Okay, now we're going to answer some of your questions and comments from social media. First, we have an audio message from a Dateline viewer who did not leave their name. Hmm. Hmm. I wonder why. Let's listen to that. Hi, I just watched a recent episode called The Family Plot. And I'm curious to know what flight or freeze spectrum is. I've heard of the flight or flight response, but I'm not familiar with flight or freeze spectrum. And then also, there's so many questions that I had about this episode and comments. But one thing that I want to comment on that brought me to tears was Josh Minkiewicz talking to Katie and Kevin's father and encouraging him that there's so much more to life to live despite the tragedies that have unfolded.