Talking Dateline: The Professor & The Poet

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0:58Hi, everybody. I'm Keith Morrison, and we are Talking Dateline. Today, I'm here with a reprobate named Josh Mankiewicz to discuss his latest episode, The Professor and the Poet. Interesting title, Josh. Did you pick that one out? Let me put it this way. No. Yeah. No. If you have not seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed and then come right back here for our talk. And later we'll have an extra clip from Josh's interview with the killer's ex-girlfriend. Then I'll be joined by Dateline producer Rachel White to answer social media questions about the episode.

1:38Are you ready, Josh? Let's do this. I have never been more ready. All right. There's literally nothing you can do right now that will upset me. Okay, fine. So this was an interesting story, Josh. What particular or part of it drew you to doing this? Well, you know, this is a story that has one thing in common with a lot of stories we do, which is that it involves a person who was the victim in this case, Sue Markham. She was smart. She was accomplished. She was together. She was no pushover. But she had a blind spot. She had a blind spot for this guy, Jorge Landero, who she originally met as a Spanish teacher.

2:19She wanted to learn Spanish. Then he got her into yoga. And then she just saw him as like the guy that she wanted, the idea of the guy that she wanted. Certainly at some point they were involved, although that appears to be brief. She told other people, family members later that she recognized that the relationship was all one way, that he was never going to return her affection. But many people would stop at that point, realizing that the interest that they have in someone else is not going to be returned. She could not stop. And the result was that she put herself in this terrible position with this guy.

3:02We run into those characters a lot in this line of work, and they are, on the surface, charming. They're able to somehow attract women, maybe, as you say, bright, smart women who are nevertheless – they know how to fill a gap in a person's life. Was she someone who had not had a long-term boyfriend or husband or had difficulty finding a romantic relationship? I'm going to say yes. I mean, I think she had never been married. it doesn't seem like there was any great love in her life that had come and gone. I think maybe she thought this guy was that. What she didn't see was that this is not the guy for you.

3:46And many people told her that. And she did also a thing that we're going to recognize, which is she stopped talking to her friends about it because she knew what the reaction was going to be. And so the result was there was no one around to say, wait, what are you doing? I think all her friends today have regrets that one, she didn't tell them about it. And two, they sort of weren't more forceful, but like, you know, nobody wants to argue with a friend. I mean, I mean, if you're doing something wrong, I might tell you once, I'm not going to like keep bringing it up. If you've made it clear, you don't want to talk about it.

4:24Sure. And she's a university professor for God's I don't think anybody thought, you know, this guy's violent. This guy's physically dangerous. You need to get away from it. Don't ever be alone with him. I don't think anybody ever said that to her or thought they needed to. Well, they don't advertise themselves. You know, somebody who is smooth and all a genius and apparently very charming but has a violent undertow, they're not going to say, hey, by the way, I can be a violent guy. Watch it. You know? The prosecution theory of the case was that he came over. We're not clear why. is he trying to get more money out of her she probably didn't have any money is he trying to calm her down we don't know we don't know but they have a drink together and then something happens and there's a fight and then he realizes this is the state's theory that he can't go back and they start physically battling and he's much bigger and stronger than she is did he go over there to kill her uh not clear not clear however after the fact that the whole business of moving the car and putting it into place where some idiot might steal it, which, of course, some idiot did.

5:28Yeah, well, I mean. Indicates he's trying to cover up the crime, at least. Oh, no, this was a very smart guy. This was a very smart guy. And I mean, look, you know, in a lot of jurisdictions in the world, a guy with a criminal record who's caught driving the dead woman's car and runs from police, like, that's your suspect and everybody can go home early on the day. Yeah. Yeah. But to their credit, I think Montgomery County police thought, this guy's kind of hapless, and he's a thief, and he's kind of a dope, maybe. But this doesn't feel like the killer. But it's an avenue in investigative work that you have to go down because you're going to get asked about.

6:08I mean, there were a lot of burglaries in that neighborhood. We should talk about the neighborhood, too, because I know that place very intimately. Well, yeah. The neighborhood went downhill after you lived there, right? Well, and why do we think it went downhill is the question, right? But, you know, I mean, the cool people stopped coming when I moved out. Let me just say that. That's not true. So before we pick up the case again, tell me about this neighborhood where it happened. This is a suburban Montgomery County, Maryland, outside Washington, D.C. And, you know, until I actually showed up at the crime scene, which was our first shoot on the first day of shooting for this Dateline story, It was only then, because Montgomery County is a big place, it was only when I showed up at the actual scene of the crime that I realized that it was the neighborhood that I had grown up in.

7:00My parents and I moved there in 1964. And we lived in three different houses, probably within five miles of where this murder happened. And I've probably driven by that house or been driven by that house as a kid, like maybe like a thousand times. I mean, I had friends who lived in really within walking distance of there. Her fire station was our fire station. Her public library was our public library. I mean, I've ridden my bike past there all, you know, many, many, many, many years ago. But to get back there, to recognize where you are must have been quite a moment. It was, you know, and also, you know, that part of, like, county you know it hasn't changed that much it was just me and my parents back then my brother hadn't been born yet i mean or as my dad referred to it the good old days but it was an interesting place to live and then later later now that we're talking about that i became a reporter at the local abc station wjla channel 7 and so then i also like covered montgomery county uh which is where I met the guy who's now the state's attorney, but at the time was a line prosecutor, John McCarthy.

8:12And it was great to be a reporter in the same area that I'd grown up in because I knew my way around. Sure. You know, this is beginning to resemble an old-fashioned British detective story because, you know, it's a reporter drawn back to his home community and And why there's a murder he should cover. And how interesting the murder is. And he follows it around from place to place in his old neighborhood. Having feelings of connection. Right. And then what happens? Well. But then he gets together with the girl he left behind. Doesn't that happen? Because that didn't happen on this one. That's not a British murder mystery.

8:51You're getting all American on me now. Yeah. That did not happen. Hang on a minute, Josh. We're going to take this little break. I want to talk about this in a minute. But can we take a break here and then we'll come right back and discuss the rest? Yeah. Okay. Sure. Right back.

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11:05Well, talk about the perp here a little bit more. So Jorge was a poet, a published poet apparently, which I find surprising. But, you know, people have many talents. Is his poetry any good? Have you read it? We did. We read it. Really? Yeah. How is it? Not world class, huh? Okay. Maybe it's the translation that's the issue. Very purple prosy, let me just say. But what's incredibly unusual is that he wrote poems or someone with his exact name wrote these poems and published them while he was on the run. And the poems are about being pursued by the FBI. eye. I don't think he ever realized that anybody who was chasing him would see them.

11:56I think he was doing this for his own sort of creative outlet. Or was he being a bit of a daredevil? You never know. Well, he was kind of taunting police in the conversations he had with them. At one point, they posed as a faculty member from American University. He was doing a story about Sue. And they said, you know, can we come to Mexico and interview you? And he was like, yeah, come on and bring your Kevlar, meaning your bulletproof vest, right? So, you know, clear that, you know, I don't know if that was a direct threat, but it's certainly an admission that he knew that that person was not a reporter.

12:32So, did he know that the FBI was going to see his poetry talking about them? I don't know. But you don't often see fugitives from the FBI write poems about being pursued by the FBI. I don't think Capone penned any verses. It just makes your bad guy a more interesting character. That's for sure. It does. That it does. Wouldn't you love to have been at the place where they finally arrested him? Outside his door. Yeah, right. It was just on the street outside his house. He's walking down the street to get a soda, I think. And they stop him. Those are always the times. The cop told me once, the thing that gets to him the most about his job is he knows when he's going to arrest somebody, even if there's a long route through the court system, that when he takes that person out of their home, puts them in the back of a car to take them in for questioning, that person is never going back to that place again.

13:29Right. And they'll try to rearrange things so that the dishes are done or something, or the piece of paper that they need to look at when they return will be there. And the guy is letting them do these things, knowing you're never coming back here. You're not coming back. We got you. You'll never see this life again. It's a dramatic moment. One interesting thing that I think didn't make the story, the TV story, is you've seen this. Cops place a lot of importance on what suspects do when they're in custody and they're alone, right? Yes, sure. Because innocent people are climbing the walls, right?

14:11Like, I can't believe I'm here in this interrogation room. Get me out of here. I want a lawyer. I didn't have anything to do with this. Let me explain everything to you, right? Guilty people, the thinking goes, can doze off. They get their feet up. Because they know they got a long stretch ahead of them. Well, on the plane back home, this is a guy who's been plucked out of Mexico, identified by DNA, and is now in, you know, leg irons and cuffs and knows that he's looking at a considerable amount of time like that. He falls asleep on the plane going home. And that, they found that interesting, I think.

14:51Yeah. What about this? I'm a little confused about Rocio. Is that her name? Rocio, the new girlfriend? That is her name. Was that in Mexico? Yes. Rocio was a woman that he met in Mexico. I think he met her through yoga. And then they became friends. And then they became more than friends. And then he and his dogs moved in with Rocio and her kids. And, you know, Rocio tells a different story than I think Sue Markham would have told in some ways. Which is, she says, you know, he was very sweet to me. And he was very interested in me. and then things change. Yeah. You know, we're living together.

15:28He cheated on me. She says during sex, he would choke her in a way that she found particularly alarming. Right. He would separate her from her friends. He was sort of - More typical controlling violent behavior. He was verbally abusive. Now, this guy is a guy that that personality is a guy that you and I have covered like dozens of times. That person is like a lot of the guys that get arrested on date line, and they're not writing any poetry. Finally, she sort of summoned up her courage and knew that she needed to get away from this guy. She threw him out of her house, and she got an order of protection against him, and they were done.

16:07And then later, after she heard he'd been arrested, she's not the person who called the FBI from everything we know. She did not realize that he was a fugitive, only that he was a bad guy. Then she called investigators and gave her story. We had this extra clip of sound from your interview with Rocio when she's talking about her struggles with her relationship with Jorge and how she ended up sharing her story. So shall we have a listen? Yes. What made you call police in Maryland? Since it was so similar, what happened, I thought that this person was having a serial conduct. and maybe my experience could help to prove that.

16:57That took a lot of courage, you know, to call the police in Maryland. You didn't have to do that. Well, I think I didn't have any other choice. I feel like that's the only path for me. I understand when people have told me that I'm brave, but I just think that's...

17:27I don't know how to explain it. There's no other way I can go. The interesting thing about her story, I think, is that, you know, there's the question of, well, you know, was she going to be his next victim? Whether anything worse was going to happen, that we're not going to know. There wasn't any insurance policy. But it was certainly heading in a bad direction. But yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any question that she took steps to protect herself and her family and that that was the right thing to do. I think the message here pretty clearly is when somebody is trying to isolate you and keep you from talking to people who are going to tell you that the guy you're with is the wrong guy, that is a giant red flag.

18:05And you should not do that. Talk to your friends. They will, the advice of your friends is worth something. It's the biggest red flag of all. Oh, yeah. No, no. That's a very, very bad sign. I agree. Yeah. It's time to say goodbye now, Josh. You think it's time to say goodbye, but actually, I happen to know that you have been a very active guy recently. You just left. No, no, no. Yes. You just left the confines of your comfortable home here in Southern California, and you did a jailhouse interview, didn't you, for an upcoming story? Yes, I did. Right? I just want to say, I love that you are out there and you are still chasing the bad guys.

18:50Stop it now. Come on. Here, I came away from this and perhaps I'm naive, Josh. I allow that possibility every day that frequently I am. But I went and I conducted a jailhouse interview with somebody who had been convicted of murder, who will spend the rest of his days in prison. And I left there thinking, he might not belong there. Oh. I mean, I've heard lots of people offer their claims and their opinions and their I'm Innocence over the years, lots of them. And you kind of know when they're— Most of them are lying. Most of them are bogus, yeah, sure. This one is interesting. I love that you're out there.

19:34There may be snow on the roof, but there's still fire in the furnace. That's this guy right here, baby. Yeah. Every once in a while, I take a walk outside, too, and take my dog for a walk, that kind of thing. Keith Morrison, folks, coming soon to your local airport. Sure. Right. You know, another little interesting thing that happened to me yesterday when I was on that trip. But occasionally people, as you know, will come and say hello. Oh, yes. And there was a group of people, I think they were FBI actually, who stopped and we had a picture taken. But a mother and daughter came to speak to me.

20:13And they were lovely, lovely people. And they were traveling to Sacramento to see state legislators to ask for their support for a campaign to fund a program to help poor children get hearing aids. Poor children who are unable to afford, you know, just go through life without being able to hear well. And I thought, well, that's nice. It's a nice thing to do. And they said hello on the way up. And then on the way back from Sacramento, well, who should I see on the airplane but them? I thought, well, that's an interesting little coincidence. The life we live on the road, as you know, Josh, can be very interesting and produce meetings that you never expect to happen.

20:56I agree. It's where you meet the audience face-to-face. And my contact with the audience almost, I would say, 100 % positive. It's great. I always feel better after talking with people who watch or listen. Yeah. And when I meet them, they all ask me the same thing. And what they ask me is, what's Keith really like? Uh-huh. And you tell him he is a prince of a man who once in a while goes outside his office and occasionally even gets on an airplane, but not very often. That's pretty much it, yeah.

21:31So a delight to speak to you, Mr. Bankowitz, as always. Thank you. Great to see you. And we'll be back with Rachel White soon. Rachel White, a far more interesting person to talk to after this. She produced this story and she did a great job. Yeah.

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23:25Hi, everybody. I'm back with Dateline producer Rachel White, who worked on this episode. and we're going to answer some of your questions from social media, which came after the program aired. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Josh is in some far-off place, I'm assuming, pretending to work. Maybe he's on to the next. That's the charitable way of looking at it. I'm sure it's true, actually. So let's ask the questions. Eric Purser on Twitter asks, Eric T. Purser, why didn't her friends tell the police about the poet to begin with? Well, Rachel? It's a good question. I think that by the point where Sue was murdered, it's 2010, and her friends believed that Jorge Landeros, the poet, had moved to Mexico back in 2008.

24:14So from their perspective, the relationship was long over, and they learned that they were still in pretty frequent contact after she passed away. Right. I guess Jackie, 16, 1941, 232, all those numbers, asks or responded actually to the picture of the Dateline team in Mexico. I'm going to put it on the screen for anybody watching the video version of the podcast. It's a lovely picture, by the way. And Rachel, you are in it from the, what, you're the second from the right in the picture? Yep, that's me in the blue scarf. There you are. It's great. Must have been a fun trip. And the viewer asks, was this in Juarez?

24:57So that was in Mexico City. That's where we were on that day shooting some B-roll, as we call it, of, you know, Mexico scenics. And that's in a very famous park in Mexico City. It's beautiful. Yeah. May I just offer a little compliment to Mexico City? I think it's, my God, it's a wonderful city. The architecture, the sort of feel of the place, the grandeur. Mexico City is underrated, I think, by a lot of Americans. Lisa Scott on Facebook says, this is the second high-profile murder by yoga instructors. I thought yoga was supposed to relax you and give you inner peace. The other yoga instructor was the woman whose name was Caitlin, who killed Mo Wilson.

25:46And I remember that one very well because that was my story. The cyclist, of course. It's really just a comment. Lisa says, I'll stick to aqua aerobics. Thank you. But, you know, there's no reason why somebody in aqua aerobics couldn't get a little jiggy as well. You know, maybe you heard this on your story, too, with the yoga instructor. But a few people made comments to us like, you know, you're in a place that is supposed to be Zen and you're supposed to be mindful and relaxed. And there was something about the yoga instructor that you just kind of inherently trust. They seem very grounded, very centered.