Talking Dateline: The Trouble in Bardstown

0:03Well, hi, everybody. I'm Lester Holt. Welcome to Talking Dateline. Today, we're with Andrea Canning to talk about her latest episode, The Trouble in Bardstown. Andrea, first off, it's good to see you. You too, Lester. All right, so to recap, mother of five Crystal Rogers disappeared from Bardstown, Kentucky in July of 2015. The mystery went unsolved for eight years until police charged Crystal's former boyfriend, Brooks Houck, with her murder. This year, Houck and two other men were convicted in connection with Crystal's death, but four additional murders remain unsolved, and Bardstown still wants answers.

0:43Now, for this Talking Date Live, we have an exclusive clip from Andrea's interview with Crystal's mom, Sherry. So let's get started. Andrea, before we get into the nuts and bolts of the case itself, let's talk a little bit about the town. This is a town that people took a lot of pride in. They called it the most beautiful small town in America. How did that reflect in your reporting as you went along in the story? Yeah, I mean, first of all, I actually have a friend from Bardstown. So when I was a local anchor in Cincinnati, my next door neighbor was from Bardstown, Therese Wethington. So I had already heard about it through her, but it's a very charming small town in Kentucky.

1:24It's just, you know, 40 minutes from Louisville and it's the Bourbon Trail. And, you know, it's just one of those Americana type towns, you know, a little bit like Mayberry. It's beautiful. The people are all so nice and the downtown is very charming. So it is quite the juxtaposition, you know, when you think about the town and everything that's happened in the town and around the town. You know, it's almost like they don't fit together. Yeah, I mean, let's face it, five murders in four years is a shocking statistic in a small town like that. Were people open to talk about their anxiety because there's a greater anxiety that's hanging over this murder case?

2:03Yeah, I mean, there was fear, anxiety. You know, I grew up in a town at the time that was 12 ,000 people myself. And I can't even imagine if there were, you know, five murders in four years in the town I grew up in. So, of course, it's just going to set everybody, you know, it's going to give everyone that uneasy sense. It seems like it fed this sense of distrust or at least people reluctant to talk to police along the way. There were some elements of that for sure. When you're from a small town, everyone knows each other or everyone knows someone who knows that person, you know, and it's a different vibe, right?

2:41It's not like the city, your neighbor or your friend or your, you know, your pastor or your dry cleaner or your teacher. So like everyone knows each other. So I think that just brings a different element to crimes like this and people being scared, you know, who's doing this? And if I am speaking out, what will happen to me? There was also this kind of situation going on with the two families, the Houcks and the Ballards. Can you talk about that a bit? Yeah, so these two families didn't know each other until Crystal met Brooks, and that's how the families got to know each other. But then once, you know, Crystal was killed and then her father was killed, you know, of course, that ramped up things between the Ballards and the Houks, because the Ballards have not been shy about who they believe killed Crystal, of course, Brooks Houck.

3:32And they also believe that the Houck family is somehow responsible for Tommy's death, Crystal's father, because of the investigation that he was doing into her death. These can be very tricky stories to cover. Did you feel like you were walking a really narrow own line as you navigated this bad blood between these families at the same time you're trying to tell the story? Yeah, I mean, we're trying to, of course, tell Crystal's story, which is most important, you know, and Tommy, right? They're the ones who have been killed in all of this. And so we have the utmost sensitivity to their family.

4:11But at the same time, you also want to give this idea of who's this other family, right? And also, Nick and his mom, Rosemary, they are unindicted co-conspirators is what they've been called. And so they have not been arrested or charged. So of course, there's that sensitivity as well that, yes, the Ballard family is pointing finger at them, but they have not been nabbed by law enforcement. That's the first time I've ever in a story had unindicted co-conspirators, you know, where they're publicly naming family members but not arresting them. And how many times have we heard this before? The relationship seemed good.

4:54In this case, a relationship between Brooks and Crystal. Is there a sense of when things soured? Because suddenly these stories come out, you know, after the fact. I think it was all right in the beginning. And then I think the problem, according to the family, started probably when Eli was born. That was the child they shared together. And Brooks, again, according to the family, seemed to care so much about Eli, but not Crystal's other four children. And they told stories, her daughter, of, you know, the things he would do, unscrewing light bulbs, you know, if they wouldn't shut the lights off, turning off the water in the house if they used too much water, unscrewing their doors, you know, if they were slamming doors, things like that.

5:42It sounded really awful. Like, this is according to Crystal's daughter. You're talking about Ashley, yeah, right? Ashley, yeah. Yeah, what a poised young lady. That's what struck me. Yeah, the way that she talks is very much like what I remember from Kentucky, because I worked, you know, on the board, I covered part of Kentucky. And I loved hearing her sort of like that folksy talk, And, you know, she admitted, she said, I had problems with my mom, you know, sometimes, but she misses her mom so much. And she just, I just thought she did such a good job in her interview. And because you don't get to see the whole thing.

6:15Like I sat down with her, you know, for like two hours. And so I was very impressed with her. Yeah. All right. Now the Ballard family, as you know, has been struck by tragedy in the past. Tommy Ballard's sister was murdered way back in 1979. His family went through a lot of pain. It's like I said to Sherry at one point, I said, this is too much for one person to bear. You know, and when I say one person, it's really, you know, all of them. But I mean, can you imagine poor Tommy, you know, loses his sister in that way? And then history repeats itself with your daughter. It's awful. You know, it's just awful what they've been put through.

6:58And poor Sherry, you know, she loses her daughter and then the love of her life, her husband. She talks about one Christmas where like she couldn't even bring herself to like cook like the dinner that she would always cook, you know, because it just didn't feel right. You know, she just didn't have that strength to like celebrate at all. You know, and you hear that from, you know, the victim's families. It sucks out all the joy out of your life that you don't even want to do those things that you once did. You have done a lot of reporting on the story. And I know there's some things we didn't get to see, but we're going to remedy that in a moment.

7:36We want to come back and hear part of your interview with Crystal's mom, who was a very emotional and very important figure in this story. We'll be right back.

7:50So, Andrea, what was the trial like? What was the courtroom like? You've got these two families who were represented there who, you know, have this really tense relationship. Did they talk among each other? Did they rub elbows? Not that I'm aware of. I certainly didn't see that. I think it was very much divided, you know, that I don't think they, either family wants anything to do with the other. You know, and you can understand why this, this is some really bad blood here, you know, between these two families. And Andrew, you and I have covered lots of stories where maybe there was no body or they didn't have any DNA or this or that.

8:32I really don't think they had much, you know, like, and I think that's why it was so hard. but it really took like that drilling down on those details that maybe didn't seem like a huge deal or there wasn't much they could do with it like when Brooks makes that call from the interrogation room you know and is saying hey what was that 13 second call about you know and he's like well that oh that was about a property oh okay thanks you know they felt like that was staged, almost orchestrated like they had planned it out. And so the FBI just really kind of ran with that. And these new detectives who were brought on to the case as well, the Kentucky State Police detectives.

9:18So they started using things that were kind of already there, but just using them in a different way. And how about those interrogation scenes, the one with Steve Lawson? That was fiery. Yeah, it was, yeah. I mean, they had kept their mouth shut for so long, you know, and that's what I'm talking about by like this pressure, like drilling down, taking these little bits and pieces and then using it to really go for that. You're not going really for the evidence at that point. You're going for that human response, human emotion. And that was actually the complaint of the defense, you know, was the defense said, hey, they wanted this narrative so badly, the law enforcement.

10:02that they were putting this pressure on to get these people to fit their narrative. And that was what the defense said in trial. And Brooks brought in a pretty high-powered lawyer, well-known lawyer in those parts. And his defense was pretty straightforward. And it really hit a little bit on what we talked about earlier, the sense of, you know, that police didn't have a lot of physical evidence, witness evidence, etc. Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest mistake, I guess, on Brooks Houck's part was including the Lawsons, right? Because once you start including other people, you can keep your secret all day long, but you can't always expect the people you've involved to keep your secrets.

10:50I mean, I think the defense had a lot to work with as far as, you know, this being such a circumstantial case. But I think, you know, it's one of those old stories, like when you add up all the pieces, you know, here, you know, from every corner of this case, it added up to murder for the jury. You know, so. And the prosecution put together a pretty big team as well. As this case went along, many different people were coming into it. But this was a group that looked around and decided we've got what we need. Yeah. And it was Shane Young, the special prosecutor, was brought in. And he looked at everything, and I think he swore in the piece.

11:36He said, I know we had to bleep him. I can't remember exactly what he said, but about how much there was to go through. There was a lot. But they were up for the challenge and they felt like they could win. And Shane Young and, you know, one of his partners is his wife. So they were just like 24-7 living and breathing this case at work and at home. And they did it together with the help of others. But I thought that was interesting that they were married. Because, you know, you don't see that every day. And, you know, Shane wasn't messing around. You know, he was like, and I don't think Shane's done.

12:17I mean, I think we're going to see some, potentially some more movement. I'm not going to speculate here on what, but I don't think that this is all over. Did you get that sense? I won't push you too far, but did you get the sense that there's a belief that this can and will someday be solved? Yeah, as far as Tommy's murder, I definitely think that there's a chance for Tommy's murder to be solved. and I think there's a chance for Jason Ellis' murder to be solved. I don't know, unfortunately, if Crystal's body will ever be found. I mean, that will take someone to talk. You know, I don't think that any amount of investigating or searching, I think we need someone to finally do the right thing and say, this is where we put her body.

13:06Well, Andrew, you had a chance to obviously sit down with Crystal's mom to talk about kind of what's next and what she takes away from where this case is right now. There are so many families across this country like yours that are, you know, stuck in this, you know, lack of answers and movement. What would you say to them, you know, if they're struggling like you have? My biggest thing for my daughter and husband, you know, you hear all the time, I guess you watch too many movies and, you know, you see all these files boxed away somewhere in a storage unit or something. And I'm like, that will not be my daughter and husband.

13:52I will do everything in my power to keep their name out there. And I think if you do that, you just got to not let people forget who they are. and you have to push. It takes a lot. It's a daily thing and it's very hard, but you can't give up on that. It's a struggle every day to keep it alive, but that's what you have to do. And you're proof that it can pay off. Yes, ma 'am. She is such a compelling interview. And as I listen to her, I think, you know, she's not just talking to unnamed people out there. She's talking to people that we have featured on this program from time to time. People confront these sorts of situations.

14:39They hope and they believe that the law enforcement system will eventually solve or bring about justice. But they know that they bear or want to take on a certain amount of responsibility. Yeah, and I tell people, like, when people approach me about unsolved cases, I always just say I've done enough of these where sometimes you just have to be patient. You know, it just it doesn't happen on your timeline, you know, but it absolutely can happen. And sometimes it's, you know, 20 years later, 30 years later. Well, Andrea, thank you for sharing some insight into this episode. And we appreciate you bringing it to us and also bringing us those really personal stories.

15:18It's really important. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. All right, we're going to take a quick break. Andrea, we're going to be back for a bit of a conversation with you and Rachel White, a producer on this program. Looking forward to that. It's coming right up.

15:36Hey, everyone. We are back with Dateline producer Rachel White, who you probably know already from Dateline True Crime Weekly. And Rachel, first of all, great to see you. Good to see you, too. Thanks for having me. All right. So let's get to our wonderful viewers who we love so much. The first question is from Randy Giamarco on X. She said, this is really terrible. There has to be touch DNA somewhere in her car. Right. So investigators shared with us that they did find two fingerprints and a partial palm print. But as you know, Andrea, those fingerprints didn't match anyone. They and come back to the Lawsons or Brooks Houck.

16:16So it's really just a bigger question mark. One of the fingerprints did come back to Brooks and Crystal's son, Eli. So we do know that, but the other fingerprint did not have a match. Yeah, the problem with touch DNA too, or DNA in general in someone's car is if you're dating someone, then, you know, of course, there's an explanation for why that person's DNA is in the car. Now, Joey or someone else, like that's another story That would raise a lot of red flags. Absolutely. I mean, Crystal had five kids. So just imagine the amount of DNA in and out of the car. You would know. Soccer practice, ballet, like how many people are in and out of her car?

16:54I'm sure a ton. So you're right. I'm sure there's a lot of DNA in her car. I just don't think it was helpful in this case. Yeah. Linda Marie on Facebook asks, Nick said his phone was off the night Crystal went missing because he was in a fight with his girlfriend. Did anyone ever corroborate that story with the girlfriend? So his girlfriend at the time testified at Brooks and Joey's trial. And she did say that she said she and Nick were in the process of moving. And so she was actually calling him several times that day. And it was just going to voicemail. It was off. His phone was off. He was nowhere to be found to help with the move that they're in the middle of.

17:34And she said that it was really unusual for his cell phone to be off. Remember, he's a police officer. So first responders typically have to have their phones on and respond when they get a call. And he just kind of went dark. And then she also said he didn't come home that night. Emily Mancini on Facebook says, My question is, since her significant other owned a home building company, could they have buried her body late at night in the basement of a house being built? Just curious if that angle was ever looked into. Good question, Emily. It is a great question. I think a lot of the Houck properties were searched.

18:09A lot of, you know, over the years, many different places were searched by many different versions of law enforcement, many layers of law enforcement. I know that recently, in the last five years or so, when the FBI had taken over and started doing a lot of searches in Bardstown, they did search at least one property that Brooks Houck was in charge of developing. They dug up a driveway. But still, there was no evidence or remains found of Crystal. Yeah, I mean, that's the saddest thing about all of this. It's all sad, but I mean, the fact that they don't have that critical answer, you know, about where Crystal is.

18:46It breaks your heart for her kids, for her mom. I mean, imagine that just that void of all of this, you know, like not being able to have a proper funeral or go to her gravesite or, you know, just not knowing where she is. It's excruciating. Absolutely. I think that's one of the hardest things right now for Sherry and for Crystal's kids and for Crystal's siblings and her family in general is just that question of where is she? And can we give her the proper burial that would mean so much to us and have, you know, a grave to go and visit and somewhere to just be with her? Bonnie Freeman on Facebook says, I'm wondering how whoever killed Tommy knew he'd be there hunting at that time.

19:30So that has been a question that has kind of haunted Sherry, the family, everyone. I think, you know, you could kind of logically see it as it was hunting season. It's Kentucky. Tommy was known to hunt that property. That was his family property. So it's not out of the question that someone would just assume that he might be there that morning. But we just don't know. That's a big question and something that everyone brought up. Maybe he was followed there. He could have been. This is a question we tried to answer in the show, but we don't have a lot of answers. Linda Carter on Facebook says, does anyone know why Officer Ellis may have been killed?

20:11Not that we know of. And that case is still open and active. And law enforcement and the prosecutors are hopeful that they will be able to eventually prosecute and solve that case. So they've been very tight-lipped. I don't believe that they've ever publicly stated what a motive could have been for his death. So, yeah, we don't have that answer right now. Suzy on X, Susan JLPN, what happened to Brooks and Crystal's son, Eli? Crystal and Brooks' son, Eli, is being raised by Brooks' family now. So they have custody of him. So next we have an audio question from Kendall Sims on Instagram. Let's take a listen.

20:51Hey, Dateline team. I absolutely love your show. My name is Kendall. I am curious if there are any updates about the mother and daughter who were also murdered in the span of time that the episode covers. Thanks. I haven't heard of anything. Rachel, have you? No. So I think, you know, what we know now is that the FBI believes that Tommy, Jason, and Crystal's cases were connected. And they've kind of said that they don't believe that the Netherlands murders were a part of that connection or a part of that case. So I believe investigators are still working on that case and working to solve that case.

21:32But I think we can safely assume that that was an isolated incident and is not connected to Tommy, Jason, or Crystal's murders. Yeah, I really hope that they can solve that and Tommy's murder and Jason Ellis' murder. Grumpa Braveheart on X says, this is no doubt one of the best episodes in the history of the series. Well done. Suspenseful. Delivered methodically. Tragic story with an astounding outcome. Maybe one day Crystal Rogers' body will be found. Um, this one was, you know, it was, it felt like a special dateline, you know, just with, with this connection we made with the family and just what went, what all went into this, you know, it was, it was a big deal.

22:13Right. It was one of those where you feel like you're trying to do justice to Crystal, but you're also still trying to report and hopefully get answers for Tommy. So. Yeah, yeah. Well, all the best to the Ellis family and the Ballard family. Absolutely. And, you know, hopefully we'll be doing follow-ups with more answers and more arrests and that all these cases will get resolved. Absolutely. We'll continue to follow them for sure. Yeah. Thanks for all your hard work on this one, Rachel. Thank you. That is it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC.

22:55If you have a question for talking Dateline, leave it for us in a voicemail, 212-413-5252, or send us a video on socials for a chance to be featured in a future episode. And we'll see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. Thank you for watching and listening.

23:19Thank you.