Newsom Says Trump’s Attacks Are “Not Normal Behavior”

0:00This episode was recorded at the 2025 DealBook Summit. This year's DealBook Summit sponsors include Premier Sponsor Accenture, Associate Sponsors U.S. Bank, Vanguard, Invesco QQQ, and University of Michigan, Supporting Sponsor Capital One, and Contributing Sponsor Invest Puerto Rico.

0:26We have to be more culturally normal. We have to be a little less judgmental. We have a party that I think needs to design and develop a compelling economic vision for the future. If we don't democratize our economy, we're not going to save democracy. This is Andrew Ross Sorkin with The New York Times, and you're listening to interviews from our annual Dealbook Summit, recorded on December 3rd in New York City.

0:57Gavin Newsom is here, everybody. Governor of California. Hello, hello. I am so glad you're here. And I just want to say the reason that I wanted you to come here more than anything else right now is I think we're in a moment where the country is trying to figure out the politics of the country, but in particular, the Democratic Party and the future of the Democratic Party and where it all goes next. And this governor has become perhaps one of the most vocal critics, frankly, of this president, often mirroring his own language on social media. We'll talk about it. In his home state of California, artificial intelligence, of course, booming.

1:32But you're also dealing with a crowd in Silicon Valley who's moved, I think, in other directions. And I want to discuss all of that in Prop 50 and everything else. So welcome to DealBook. Thank you for being here. Good to be with you. Good to be with everybody. Let's start there. Let's just start at the beginning here of the Democratic Party. You recently declared that the Democratic Party of old is no more. And I wanted to know what you meant by that. I think this was in the wake of Proposition 50's win in California and, of course, the wins in Virginia and New Jersey. But why you think the Democratic Party of old is not the same and what it looks like?

2:11I would say it in contextual terms that we're finally back on our toes, not our back heels. We're finally on the offense. We're finally beginning to shape shift and we're finally beginning to fight. We've woken up. And as a consequence, we're winning again. A year ago, we were all there hand-wringing because we were a party that appeared weak, out of touch, a party that was not fighting back, was not asserting itself. And so from my perspective, I thought November and what it represented in New Jersey and Virginia, what it represented in many respects here, but also in Pennsylvania and Georgia and elsewhere, and certainly with Proposition 50 was demonstrable proof, including last night, that our party's now back on its toes.

2:52And it's a party now that has gotten more enthusiasm, and it's a party that I think is more unified. Okay, but you say unified. What does that party look like? So there is a wealth tax proposal in California that I think you are adamantly against. Yes, I am. And we have a mayor that's coming here in New York who would like to have a wealth tax if he could. You couldn't be more diametrically opposed. Yeah, well, I want to be a Big Ten party. It's about addition, not subtraction. But this idea of a unifying theory of the case. I mean, I think we all want to be protected. We all want to be respected.

3:25We all want to be connected. There's something bigger than ourselves. We have fundamental values that I think define our party about social justice, economic justice. I think we recognize it's important to focus on growth, but also focus on inclusion. We have pre-distribution Democrats. We have redistribution Democrats. And therein lies the dialectic, and therein lies the debate within the Democratic Party. We also have Democrats that are representative of their districts, representative of the people that they represent. So much punditry has been done about, well, is the future of the party Mandami at the same election that occurred?

4:00Well, is the future, hold on, of Virginia? Is the future New Jersey? Is the future? So, but which is it? And that's the question about the unifying theory question, which is you could have a big tent, But if the theory of the case are so diametrically opposed, how split and broken is the party? Look, the party's knitting itself back together. We got shellacked in the last election. And there's been a lot of forensic analysis, perhaps not enough, about what happened. Donald Trump crushed us in the last election. And what do you think happened? I'm up to page 28 in my analysis of what happened. But at the end of the day, you know, I think we have to become...

4:38Give us a couple of the pages. No, look, I mean, you know, we could talk about why Kamala lost, which is separate. I mean, it's part derivative of the larger narrative, but issues around inflation scars. We don't talk enough about interest rates. We didn't talk about incumbency. Issues related, you just said, Bibi on, related to Israeli politics. Immigration, the border in particular, you could talk about all those things, not just 107 days, not just talk about Biden's determination or lack thereof in terms of passing the baton. But I think there's a broader narrative that we have to address. That is, we have to be more culturally normal.

5:16We have to be a little less judgmental. We have to be a party that understands the importance and power of the border substantively and politically. We have a party that I think needs to design and develop a compelling economic vision for the future, where people feel included to reconcile the fact that if we don't democratize our economy, we're not going to save democracy. And I don't think it's healthy that we have 10 % of people that own two-thirds the wealth in this country. I don't think it's sustainable practice. The folks watching Mr. Beast, disproportionately 30-year-olds, the first generation in history not doing better than their parents.

5:55There's some underlying issues here that have to be addressed. We have an economy that is broken for too many people. And I say that as someone that doesn't begrudge other people's success. I do that as someone that believes not in redistributive policies, believes in progressive tax policy, but is mindful that businesses can't thrive in a world that's failing. And I think that's foundationally and fundamentally what Trump understood. It's what people like AOC, Bernie, and Mandami understand from a narrative perspective. But the policies that shape that, I think will also shape the comeback for the Democratic Party.

6:31Okay, but let me ask then about wealth taxes, because it's an easy one to discuss in certain ways. You're not for a wealth tax in the state of California. You can't isolate yourself from the 49 others. We're in a competitive environment. People have this simple luxury, particularly people of that status. They already have two or three homes outside the state. It's a simple issue. You've got to be pragmatic about it. Plus, there's some simple questions that haven't been answered very simply, is how the hell do you determine it? Is it your mark-to-market? Where's your asset base? How do you make that determination in terms of just what the basic assessment is?

7:05We have one individual that represents one labor union in the state of California that has not collected one signature that is considering putting on the ballot after he collects signatures a wealth tax that vast majority of labor opposes and almost everybody I know opposes. So it's not something to be panicked about, but it's part of the broader concern and narrative that's developed in this country of the haves and have-nots, not just income inequality, but wealth inequality. And look, it doesn't take much. You go back, read an old Plutarch comment, quote, two plus thousand years ago, Plutarch was warning the Athenians that the imbalance between the rich and the poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics.

7:51It's so foundational, and it's off-kilter now, and it has to be addressed. And that's why I talk about growth and inclusion. And I think that's a construct. But how do you address it if it's not for taxes? Well, I'm around. We can get into many issues related to affordability and reducing costs, not just subsidizing costs. I'll give you a proof point of that. This is not an answer, but it is a proof point. We just came out with$11 insulin. We're not subsidizing the cost of insulin. We're manufacturing it. reducing costs, not subsidizing costs. We just came out with a new strategy to provide$60 billion of utility rebates in the state of California through our cap and invest program, regionalizing our grid with other Western states to lower costs, deal with curtailment issues, create more stability on our grid to also address that issue.

8:48As it relates to broader issues for our party, I believe fundamentally that our interventions come too late. One of the things that has come too late, but I'm glad its moment is here, interestingly, because I'm rare am I out there promoting what Ted Cruz is promoting, but Cory Booker and Ted Cruz absolutely right in the big, beautiful bill, these baby bonds. That's good policy. By the way, I did it four years ago,$1.9 billion for 3.4 million students It's going into kindergarten, getting child savings accounts up to$1 ,500. That's about creating opportunities for wealth. You're talking about what some people are calling the Trump accounts.

9:27Well, Trump is literally vandalizing it by putting his name on it. And we can get into broader issues there. But it's a good idea. And all these conversations are very familiar. People are now talking about UBI, Mincome, and all that. Now it's moved to universal basic capital and equity and sovereign wealth. This is the conversation we need to start having because, again, we have got to democratize our economy. The democracy cannot withstand this kind of disparity for long. Let me ask you this. You're talking in a very national way, so I'm just going to go straight at it. Politico says this about you.

10:08The headline, admitted Gavin Newsom is the 2028 frontrunner. For years, Democrats and pundits have rolled their eyes at Gavin Newsom, they say. But he's positioned better than anyone else for the future of politics now. What do you think of that? I assume you'd like that. Trying to sell links to Politico is what it sounds like. Look, I'm humbled by that because it's rather remarkable. You were counted out. Yeah, well, fine. most of my life I have been. I'm a 960 SAT guy.

10:45So I'm used to it. But you know what? I'm trying to meet this moment, and I'm trying to be accountable to this moment. I'm not thinking, I know there's a lot of speculation about the future, and I said to someone who asked me directly, he said, have you ever thought about it? I said, I'd be lying. I hate those politicians. So I haven't thought about the future in that respect. How much are you thinking about it then? Not to the degree that you think, and perhaps others that are more cynical. I really am serious about this. For me, it was all about 2025. It was about finding fire with fire. It was about being accountable, not just rhetorically, but substantively, to address what Donald Trump is trying to do to this country.

11:30He's trying to wreck this country. He tried to do that on January 6th. Tried to light democracy on fire. He dialed for votes down there, said, find me 11 ,000, 12 ,000 votes with the Secretary of State in Georgia. He did the same thing when he said he's, quote, unquote, entitled to five seats when he called Greg Abbott. He's trying to rig the midterm elections in 2026 before one vote is cast. And what he expected is California would sit back, maybe work to write an op-ed, hoping that the New York Times would run it to say what a terrible thing this is. They did not and he did not expect us to go out and raise$118 million over a 90-day period and put our independent redistricting commission on a new status for three-year temporary and transparent new maps in order to counter what happened in Texas.

12:19That is critical. What's also critical is 2026. You will not have, and I imagine half of you may just roll your eyes. I believe this in the core of my heart. You will not have a free and fair election as we know them today in the United States of America if Speaker Jeffries is not sworn in a year plus from now. I really believe that. Sure, there'll be elections. Competitive authoritarians love elections. Putin, I think, got 87.3%. The runner-up was a 4.3. That's what I mean by competitive authoritarianism. Ask folks in Hungary and Orban what's going on in Turkey. That's the model for Trump. I don't think that.

13:00I know that on the basis of a lot of evidence and fact. I saw, in fact, examples of that the day of our election just a few weeks ago where Donald Trump set out BORTAC teams, Border Patrol tactical units to Dodger Stadium to chill free expression, to chill election turnout. He said the day of the election before one vote was cast. He said this was a rigged election. Sent out his DOJ with no basis, no business to being there for a state ballot. He sent Greg Bovino and his secret police that seemed to have taken an oath in office to him, not the Constitution of the United States, to our campaign kickoff at the Democracy Center to chill participation in our rally.

13:44And he federalized 4 ,000 National Guard and sent 700 active duty Marines, not overseas, but to the second largest city in America. And they're still, our federalized Guard, still there. Wake up to what is going on in this country. It is code red. And I'm sure a lot of you are fine with it because a lot of people have figured it out. They know the game. State capitalism, crony capitalism, the great grift. A lot of you are doing extraordinarily well. But one of the things I'm trying to do better is express my concern, highlight that with more conviction and clarity, and also reinforce that we're about to walk into the 250th anniversary of the best of Greek democracy in the Roman Republic, this historic values of our founding fathers in 2026.

14:38And it's all on the line. And so I'm standing on that line and we're trying to push back. Let me ask you this. And I think we're making progress. I had asked readers of DealBook if they had questions for you. And here's a good one that came in that actually matches the conversation I think you were just having. And this relates to Prop 50. This question came in and said, how is California's gerrymandering exercise with the full support of the governor anything but a slippery slope? Aren't there other solutions? Are there? We can hold hands, have a candlelight visual. I mean, that's the damn Democratic Party.

15:21That goes to your first question. But I assume you're against gerrymandering. Not only am I against it, I was one of its champions for independent redistricting. And that's why I required in this ballot initiative that we affirm our desire to have national independent redistricting. And by the way, the voters overwhelmingly supported that. But a temporary response to an emergency of Donald Trump's making was appropriate. We maintain the independent redistricting commission. We still maintain the independent districts for everything but three elections for Congress. And then it reverts back to its original form.

15:57Final point, these were the first maps in U.S. history to go on the ballot. Talk about transparency. Talk about democracy. Compare that to the maps that were drafted and are currently being drafted in Mar-a-Lago, up there in Indiana, in Missouri, in North Carolina, and will be done quite literally in Mar-a-Lago when DeSantis gets his arms around them. That's the contrast. And again, we had to fight fire with fire. It's not one hand tied behind our back. We're trying to win an argument. These guys are consolidating power. That's the difference. Let me ask you about fire with fire. You have taken to trolling Trump and really using his words.

16:34I want to just read you. This is a post on November 28th from you. From me. Happy holidays to everyone except the seriously demented piggy who turned the Oval Office into a revolving door for grifters and crooks. You go on to say this clown slapped tariffs, attacks on the working man. You go on to say that his dimwit Avengers, including Cash Money Patel, Dumb Dumb Pete, Cosplay Christie, and you go on and on and on. And my question to you is about this rhetoric. Because you have been very critical of the way the president has spoken, the rhetoric of this president. And here you are using the exact same rhetoric.

17:14I need to wake everybody up. There's this normalization of deviancy. And it was becoming socialized, normalized. You got Pravda, the propaganda networks out there, the primetime lineup at Fox, just going on and on and on. Call someone the R word or piggy, and somehow it's just Trump being Trump. There's nothing normal about this. He's a man-child. It's unbecoming of the President of the United States. He's dressed up as the Pope. He's acting like he's Superman. This is not normal. He's putting his face on Mount Rushmore. He sends these alt-tweet caps. These are verbatim what he's doing. I tried to put a mirror up to what the hell is going on in this country.

17:52This is not normal behavior. And you know what? I appreciate that. And it's working in this respect. You know what was most offended? I think there were 11 to 15 Fox News pieces on this. Disgusted they were. Newsom's wife, who's here, thank you, Jen, she should wash his mouth out with soap. saying about me for these tweets. Without any situational awareness, they haven't said a damn word about the president of the United States. So look, I think you had Mr. Beast on. I love that he was just on. He's all about communication. He's all about attention. Trump is an exceptionally gifted communicator.

18:33Terrible order. Exceptionally gifted communicator. And repetition matters. And what I'm trying to parrot is an iterative style. Put that mirror up. but also test some theories. And I, forgive me, I think it's working a little bit. And not all of these, there's a kill switch for me. Not every one I write. Well, I was going to say, what is the kill switch? But not all of them. Sometimes, yeah, I don't know what happens. You're selling, you said coming soon, you're selling new knee pads for all CEOs, universities, and GOP bending the knee to Donald Trump. And you're actually selling these knee pads.

19:12We raised hundreds of thousands of dollars. By the way, they're available today. By the way, some of you may need to buy them in bulk. But we have the new Trump Signature Series knee pads on my Patriot site, which is an actual real site. I encourage you, if you're bored, to Google it right now. And they were sold out, just like our universities were selling out, just like our law firms were selling out, just like a lot of CEOs were selling out, selling out this country, our future, our republic, selling out my kids, your grandkids. So there's method to it. And I mean, it breaks my heart to see these law firms sell out like this.

19:58Breaks my heart to see. I mean, President Xi is out there going, my gosh, Trump's flattery. I mean, 10 % of intel? 15 % at AMD, 15 % at NVIDIA, MP Materials, Golden Shares, at U.S. Steel. What the hell happened to free enterprise, a healthy horse pulling a sturdy wagon? What's going on with this country? What's going on with the country? The President of the United States shows up, but the one group that shows up before him are members of his family to make sure they get the golf course approved, to use the tariffs as leverage to get personal deals done. Towers, three or four different countries.

20:34What is the one thing that has in common all his trips overseas? This meme coin, the crypto scam, the pardons on a daily basis, it seems. This is not America. It's not the America I grew up in. It's not the America I want my kids growing up in. So we got to call this out. And I know it's painful for some because, you know, to be called out, and I don't mean to be a fan, I don't want to be this guy, but it disgusts me. And so I thought the knee pads were appropriate.

21:06Let me ask you a related question. President Trump on his website is selling hats that say 2028 on them. Do you believe that he has any ambition to be the president beyond 2028? Well, ambition, yes. But I think he recognizes time of life is catching up with him, even though he can't remember exactly why he went in for an MRI. And so I think his regime will be measured in years, not decades. God forbid he was 10, 20 years younger. That would, I don't believe, be the case. I take Steve Bannon quite literally. I take him at his word on this. By the way, I had Steve on my podcast. I was in the Oval Office, incidentally, just as an aside, with President Trump a few months ago.

21:59I think I was one of the first Democrats to sit down with him, almost 90 minutes. And one of the things, I'm sitting there at the Resolute, he turns, he says, hey, who's that behind you? I said, I thought it was someone walked in. It was a beautiful oil painting of FDR. And I literally looked and I went, oh God, here we go. I said, three terms. He goes, no, what about four? He's trolling everybody, but he's also bringing world leaders in to give them the 2028 hat. Heck, this is how serious he was about avoiding the government shutdown, that he not only canceled the meetings with Jeffries and Schumer, felt pressure to get the meeting back on.

22:36And what did he do? He didn't invite the press in. He just had a photo with the 2028 hat to troll them on the desk. So I take him more seriously than most. But for me, what I worry about again is his ability to manipulate the 2028 election even 2028 election 2028 even though he's not on the ballot okay that's why it's so important that we win the house of representatives in 2026 it is foundational what do you think he's going to do what is what is he going to do he's pay attention um we've we've seen him he's put america in reverse he wants this to bring us back to pre 1960s world. We've seen it across the spectrum, and that's not atypical.

23:21Republicans broadly have been supportive of that agenda, but he's doing it with more ferocity in voting rights, civil rights, LGBTQ rights, women's rights, and the like. But when it comes to the issues of voter ID, when it comes to the issues of voter integrity, when it comes to the issues of masked men being in and around polling places, when it comes to the issue, as he's doing in January, quick response teams, Did you pay attention to this? He announced quick response teams in every state in the United States of America so that he can federalize the National Guard. Think about that as we come to the elections in 2026.

23:56It's a series of things. It's not one thing he's doing, getting rid of vote by mail. It's a series of things that concern me. And that stacking creates a lot of stress from my perspective. Let me ask you a different question, which is for a very long time, people specifically actually in Silicon Valley were very supportive of you and they were very supportive of Democrats and they were very supportive of California. And there has been a big move afoot, as you know, out of the state, either out of the state or at least their politics have shifted markedly. So you may have Sam Altman or Mark Zuckerberg in your state, but effectively, they are also at the state dinner with this president.

24:43What do you think has happened here? Well, they all moved back into the state. I mean, I live in a state with 32 of the top 50 market cap AI companies. I mean, in the Bay Area, almost dominantly, disproportionately. We dominate in fusion, quantum. We dominate in robotics. We dominate in space. We dominate in all these future technologies, including R &D and nuclear. Of course, we have 18 % of the world's R &D in my state. Germany, about 21%. China, 22%. We're 18 % of the world's R &D. You saw Tesla move their world R &D headquarters into Silicon Valley, HP Enterprises, old headquarters. This is after Elon had left originally.

25:22But all he left with was a bag of cash so he can avoid capital gains. I mean, he continued to grow Tesla. In fact, you can go and watch the press conference we had a few months later when he brought the R &D headquarters back, where he made the case we've added 10 ,000 jobs from Tesla since we, quote-unquote, moved the company. So what is your relation, by the way, what's your relationship like with these people now? And how do you keep them in your state, and yet they're on the other side of your own politics? They are and they aren't. It's very situational with a lot of these guys. A lot of the folks that well-described moved towards Trump, sort of the SACS types, watch that space.

26:05You say watch that, what do you mean? New York Times did a masterpiece. It was a masterclass analysis. Talk about just self-dealing. Come on. I mean, cryptos are, I mean, all-in podcasts, by the way, is, you know, great podcast, not a knock. but his one of his co-hosts is in business with trump jr who's in business with laura ingram on a new spec they go so well it's none of this is normal they announced the big a ideal at the all-in podcast i mean this is this is a different level of griff than we've ever experienced in our lifetime and i say this let me ask you one question but i say this those guys were already on the spectrum, libertarian spectrum already.