How brands and creators are fighting for your attention — and your money

21:17Hank Green:But like, it's a lot harder to, like for an unskippable ad on YouTube or YouTube reports whether or not someone skipped a skippable ad, you know that that person is there. They could mute their phone or their monitor or TV or whatever, But like they aren't probably for the most part. And, you know, maybe some of those those mid roles people could be in the other room. They're using leaving YouTube on for company, just like they did with TV. But it just feels like at this point, YouTube is TV. And it's just it's surprising. Like if I was an advertiser, I'd be like, why would I ever, ever, unless I was trying to reach a very specific demographic, go on TV where it remains more expensive?

21:56Depends if you're in sports. That's an interesting place. There are some moments that push you to be not on YouTube. I am a big fan of YouTube. Many of my clients love the YouTube experience. If you can search, shop, social, all of those things coexist in one place. And it is the most watched thing that is horizontal in your living room. Yeah. If I look at my 11-year-old where they spend time watching Minecraft creators on YouTube in our living room when I would have watched whatever show that was on. Right. So I agree with you. But, you know, sometimes you're not going to get things like the Super Bowl.

22:40Hank Green:For sure. We need to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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24:33Hank Green:We're back with Digitas CEO Amy Lanzi. Before the break, we were talking about why the advertising industry still puts such a premium on traditional television. But now I wanted Amy to walk me through what her agency might do if they were managing an e-commerce brand like mine. To help me understand what Digitas does, and I think that Digitas is a very interesting piece of the advertising industry, to really get nuts and bolts. Can you imagine for a moment that you are approached by a brand? They do about$10 million in business a year. They're small. They donate all of their profit to charity.

25:06Hank Green:They sell a variety of products. The idea is they're a store. Maybe it's a good dot store. This is a thing that I run. They have coffee and they have soap. And they're trying to figure out how to do marketing. If they approached you and were like, we're going to go big, we've got some money, we're going to try and get into this space, what would Digitas do? What services would they provide? How would they start? How would we start working together? What does that look like? Sure. So first we would think about how we describe what is the value prop of this company? What is your right to win? And how do we start to tell our story?

25:40Hank Green:My right to win? Yes. God damn. That's why you're in this business. my right to win. I deserve your money. I deserve to destroy my competition. Yes. So what is the single thing that we, this consumers are going to rush to your connected ecosystem to make a purchase and tell everyone about it? So how, what do we stand for? How are we going to tell our story to the world? Part one. Second, how are we investing those dollars you might have to recruit and retain consumers? What makes sense? Are we spending all of our money on YouTube? Sounds like that's what you would like to do. But that's, you know, maybe I may not agree with that.

26:21Hank Green:I've had success on a variety of platforms, but I don't think that we're going to hit HGTV anytime soon. So then we think about how are we going to be able to both recruit and retain the consumers you want so that you can grow. Third, and I'm guessing, But this feels like a very socially relevant type of organization, as well as the value prop you're putting out there is something we might want to have creators that are also loving this and wanting to make the market for you. That's something we call social as a system. So now I'm going to go out and say, we know that people that have cat video makers and people that make cooking videos and travel videos, those that follow those types of creators are also going to want to come and buy something from our store.

27:10So we're going to co-create with them so that they are then able to bring more understanding of our offering as well as eventually drive more sales, as an example.

27:21Hank Green:It's interesting, and I like this, that you talk about the role of marketing in acquisition of a customer, but also the retention of that customer, which I completely agree with. I often find that when I'm working with marketing agencies, it's very sort of acquisition cost focused and not much thought. Retention sort of is on us. We think about retention, and that's not really sort of integrated into our marketing strategy. To me, I grew up on the 80-20 rule. In this context, what is the 80-20 rule? That 80 % of your sales come from 20 % of your customer base. So when you're obsessed with acquisition, you might not be getting incremental out of your core.

28:03You also might be losing them because you're doing things to drive acquisition that may turn off your core audience. So you should be thinking about recruiting and retaining always as a way to think about creating your own brand flywheel. Yeah.

28:20Hank Green:Well, thank you for my free consulting. No problem.

28:26Hank Green:So tell me about Digitas. I guess we should decoder it. You've been here before, but how is Digitas structured? We are a modern marketing agency. we have five different practices that work together to deliver what we call networked experiences. That means how do I build experiences to be able to get Hank to move from like to love to loyalty with the brands that we represent? The practices are creative experiences, integrated media, CRM, commerce, social transformation. We are powered by data and analytics. Okay. I got to make you define all those terms now. Okay. So you asked me creative experiences.

29:11So you asked me about this mythical company. That means what do I sound like? What do I look like? What are the types of creative that I need to be able to engage with the consumers? Integrated media. How am I able to take the money that you have to spend in media and I'm going to tell you where to spend it? CRM, this is loyalty. How am I SMSing you and sending you emails so that you do more things with me and like me even more? Commerce, how do I make sure that I'm showing up in easy ways and seamless ways for you to buy my things? And then the last one is social. How am I using creators? How am I showing up in social so I am making the market for myself?

29:50Hank Green:So Digitas refers to itself, describes itself as a networked experience agency. Yes. Again, I got to ask you to define the terms. There's so many words in that order. I'm not quite sure. I think I actually, having done a little research, I think I know, but please tell me. Sure. Networked experience is essentially how we're delivering an experience around the consumer so that we earn our way into your networks. You can't just put comms out there and put any communication out there and think that consumers are just going to take it. they are very hard to find and we are in an attention battle. So I have to earn my way in as a brand that you go to and you pay attention to.

30:32That comes from a combination of the things I talked about, which is like, what do I stand for? How am I going as a brand to make you faster, smarter, stronger? How am I going to find you in the places you're spending your attention, whether you're watching sports or whatever that is? And then how do I bring in some of those other services I talked about so that I'm continuing to drive growth for the brands we work with.

30:53Hank Green:We have also noticed in our background research that things at Digitas are described as unicorns. So Digitas AI is the unicorn of AI operating systems. SWOT is run by our team of social unicorns. The headline on your careers page is unicorns welcome. I was just talking to your colleague and in the background there was an inflatable unicorn. Yes. So our people, Our people are unicorns. Okay. And the people power the offerings from Digitas. Part of this, like, it's a weird thing. So Publicis has a bunch of different agencies inside of it. So you're kind of, are you, I assume to some extent, you're competing with your colleagues for business?

31:36We are not competing with each other. So this is, that's a very good question. I mean, does it ever feel like you are? No, because the culture of Publicis Group is very much around, We have the promise of the power of one, which is what my boss's boss's boss says to our clients, which what that means is we are committed to bringing the very best talent and solutions to clients. And those come from all different types of agencies, not just one agency. We're not biased by the one agency perimeter. This is very true. This is not true for every holding company. This is very much the core of Publicis Group.

32:12Because we don't, otherwise it's bad for clients. If I'm in a fight on revenue for me versus my sister agency, that's just not good for clients. That's a distraction.

32:20Hank Green:Yeah. You know, for me, Digitas, when we think about ourselves as unicorns, the culture of Digitas is we're fearless, inventive, and generous. And our role is really finding those new inventive things that clients that come to us want and expect. That's a little different than some of where my sister agencies sit and where they focus on. So I'll give you an example. We worked with Reddit to build out their community insights AI product. This is something that we co-created with them. That's wild. So that because we found so much of our strategic planners were coming in looking for unique insights around what's going on in Reddit.

33:00How are people talking about these brands? What can we find that would help me understand my right to win? See, I used it again. And so then we said to Reddit, like, let's make a product because this is something that we can do more with. That's a little bit of the things that a Digitas would do for some of the other agencies may not focus on that. And then we build that into our value prop to clients. It also might be something that we give to other clients through that power of one model.

33:25Hank Green:So and that can you explain that product to me? So if I have a brand, if I have a candy, are you, as like Reddit, preventing you like kind of reports of the buzz of communication of what's going on with M &Ms or whatever? That's exactly right. And it's basically what can I learn from the chatter on Reddit that bubble up into Insight so I can learn something that may not be expected but is showing up in, you know, Reddit is kind of the chat box, is like the gossip channel of the internet. A lot of it, yeah. And so this is a place for you to be able to look for those insights that might be the edges that then help you break through for that confectionery brand, for example.

34:03Hank Green:And then you can do like a Harry Styles flavored Oreo because that's what everybody wants. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Like I'll give you a real example. Okay. When we were working on Rivian, we were pitching their business and Rivian is one of the most talked about brands on Reddit as an auto brand. Yeah. Kind of, you know, you would think just because they're an EV and they're not as giant as some of the other brands you might think of. But because the core of Reddit is really quite tech-oriented or the original, you know, power users of Reddit makes sense. So this is a place where— First adopter place.

34:38Yeah. This is a place for Rivian. You may not spend more money on Reddit. You may spend more money on other places because they're trying to get moms to buy their product. So don't fish where you already have won the people. This is your recruit and retain story.

34:52Hank Green:Interesting. Yeah. So that was an example. And so we had a couple of those come our way. And then we said to Reddit, hey, we think this could be a really interesting product for us to build together so that we can get to these insights faster for our clients. Have you thought about doing that with other platforms, Twitter, YouTube? It seems like there's a lot of insight, a lot of buzz happens in comments in various places. We have different engagement models and products with different partners. When TikTok, four years ago, we built the TikTok community commerce effort. This was really before TikTok understood the power potential of TikTok shops.

35:32Hank Green:Oh, I mean, I think they understood it because... In the U.S. This is a U.S. story. Yes, in the U.S., yeah. So what does that mean if a brand wants to do something on TikTok shops? What does TikTok need to do? What do I as a brand need to do to be able to stand that up, et cetera? So we worked with them to build that out. And then part of it is being able to get the connection so that you're able to understand what's possible and also is it moving? What insights are driving that assortment I should be selling on TikTok shops, for example? And is that like a revenue generator for Reddit? Like are you paying for that insight?

36:06No, it's not something like that. It's more that the more you use a product like that, therefore more partners want to do more things with Reddit, whether it's more media investment or more content they're creating specific to Reddit. So think of it as more of a lead gen opportunity for Reddit.

36:21Hank Green:Right. And that's something that you helped Reddit build internally? Yes. We helped them on the product roadmap. Interesting. Weird. We're talking about AI. We're talking about AI. Everybody's talking about AI. We've brought up AI several times already. Yes. I don't know. First, is there a threat there? Is there like a world where a lot of this work is just being done by machines? This is the big hot topic in my industry. And of course, there is a threat that there is a CMO that decides they're just going to pick AI partner and dump everything into that and let the robots take over. But I think we've also determined that humans matter.

37:11Humans matter to be able to come up with actually creative ideas, not just content. It also matters when you think about brand governance and brand safety, right? When you think about, you know, AI to creative, and if you're familiar with programmatic and the amount of brand safety that's required to make sure that you are putting places in the right areas as well as that's the right content, all of that is even more important. So there's governance that's required to that brand is holding up to the integrity of what the brand should be and what it stands for. And that's still humans that need to be able to do that.

37:51But to me, the future is around how these things work together. You know, as you mentioned, Digitas AI, for me, that was a, that's, we've been working on that for two years. And it really is, how do we create agents to minimize low value activity that our clients don't care about, but we need to do? So then you're freeing up your time to do things that are human-based and more strategic. And that's more valuable to them. Yeah. Right. So like reporting, pull the report. Sure. We did the report. Great. The insights around the report come from your brain. So let's make sure that we are either whether it's through automation or it's through agents to be able to get to that level of output, but then be able to take the brand and our clients to the next place they should based on what we've learned from this assessment, because we've done that much faster.

38:47Mm-hmm.

38:49Hank Green:I'm of the opinion that this transition happens more slowly than we might expect that it otherwise would. Because, like, people have relationships with people and, you know, ultimately Digitas, an advertising agency, might be able to, you know, introduce some efficiencies. But ultimately, a lot of what I would be paying for if Goodstore was working with Digitas would be, like, someone who I trust, who can explain the choices that are being made with my money. and then like that, you know, sort of starting from a place of a little bit of trust and working towards a lot of trust. And I guess I could probably develop that with an agent at some point, but I feel as if that is going to take a lot of time, especially, you know, ultimately a lot of CMOs.

39:38Hank Green:I don't know, maybe you let me know, maybe not actually the most innovative thinkers. I'm sorry, I feel me saying that. No, no, I think it is a people business. You know, clients call me because they say, I don't know what to do. What should I do? And that sometimes is a technical question. And to your point, CMOs need to now be full stack operators. And that means you now need to be technically advanced to be able to choose between all these AI products that are coming at you, which is not really the core of most of them. It's not that they can't get there. It's just that they don't have another, you know, a new set of a new team as well as a whole, you know, like it's a that's a full other day job to be able to determine all of that and sort of the modern tech stack.

40:29So the promise of it is great. Not to mention brand managers aren't trained in business school to figure out how to use the Adobe or Salesforce AI products. Yeah. So let's pretend everything turns over. Then all of a sudden they graduate and they suddenly get out of business school or whatever. And they go to CPG XYZ. They don't know how to use that. They don't know how to use Adobe Dirty Manager. Like that's, it's a very, it goes very technical very fast. And it's important because we want to have where we started the call around greater personalization. You're a busy person. So I would hope the communications I send you are more on par with what you need versus waste.

41:10But that doesn't mean we don't need to thoughtfully think about the brand, what it stands for, what you want to engage with through culture, what you don't, what kind of new products you want to make. That takes time. And so I agree with you. I think it's an important thing to bring into the fold, but I don't see it completely just collapsing in the next quarter.

41:38Hank Green:We need to take another quick break. We'll be right back.

42:09Hank Green:the hard way with plenty of slip ups and face plants. But since I already made those mistakes, I get to share them with you so you don't have to. If you want to swerve all the potholes I fell into, give the episode a listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash your rich BFF.

42:30Hank Green:We're back with Digita CEO Amy Lansy discussing the modern landscape of digital marketing and whether she thinks her job is getting harder and more complicated because of the state of the internet.

42:44Hank Green:Can I hit you with an assumption and you can tell me where my assumption lies in your view of the world? So there's this kind of narrative maybe that this has all gotten really hard for advertising agencies because it's very fractured. It's very hard to like, there's so much more data. So instead of sort of vibing and being like, well, this is the kind of advertisement that would resonate with me, so maybe it's going to resonate with other people, that this has made it much more difficult for advertising agencies. But I think that while that might be true, my assumption is that this is better for advertising agencies because when things are more complicated, people are more likely to need a partner who understands that world rather than trying to figure it all out themselves.

43:24So two things. It's an exciting time to be in an agency because all of the complexity enables us to see what actually worked. Because we have so much data, the core of Digitas is data and analytics. it was born to compete with the more traditional creative agencies that were just making ads for TV. And it was born on the promise of direct marketing. If I know more about you, I can think about what I should be sending to your house. So now when you think about what's happening, it's like, I can tell you, no, no, no. Your question earlier around, did this perform? Is my investment in YouTube performing harder than my investment in other places?

44:04When we think about closed loop measurement, I can pretty much start to figure out what's working and what isn't.

44:09Hank Green:Gotcha. So that's pretty exciting. And if you're okay with following the data versus wanting to put out things you think are cool, you're in the right business. And I think that's a change in the market where you need big ideas, but the ability to have, you know, be humble to say, well, that didn't work and we need to do something else faster. Do you feel like on the scale of sort of like quant to creative that you are more in the quant part? I'm a quant. My dad was a physicist. Okay. Yeah, I'm a quant. I don't know. I mean, I grew up in finance as an analyst. Yield management and American Airlines is a quant.

44:45Hank Green:But then you're managing a lot of creative people. Sure. And how does that go? Is that ever a source of friction and conflict? No, because the business is really about balancing the art and science. So there's, you know, the founder that I worked for at an agency that was eventually acquired by Omnicom, he would say there are people that are linear thinkers and gut thinkers. Know the difference and you need to be able to walk right down the middle. So if you're always leaning on the data, you may do nothing that's very interesting, perhaps. But if you're always focused on that gut feeling, I think this is cool, whatever, that may not be the thing that breaks through.

45:28So you have to be able to harness both to really do something that's going to deliver breakthrough thinking and growth.

45:35Hank Green:That's the nice thing about being a creator in this day and age is that like you can make something and then get direct feedback from an audience very quickly. And I assume that that is also the case for, you know, the creators that work for Digitas making things with brands. I wanted to ask also, so there's Publicis and there's Omnicom, which are two giants in this space. And there's like a ton of smaller agencies that they now have gobbled up and they are part of them. When you get down to it, it's basically just two very large companies controlling a lot of this world. What else is the competition for y 'all?

46:11The competition is wider than what I'll call the hold codes you've identified. So there's Publicis, there's Omnicom, there's WPP. There's a handful of them. I think there's about six that you would look at in terms of holdco's. Then there's many independents that come in with a point solution that are fantastic at creative product or they're fantastic at CRM. And there are many of those that may be part of a holdco or might are more independent.

46:41Hank Green:What is the advantage of the holdco? Can you articulate that? So what's the scale advantage? Just having HR and finance? No, it's like that Reddit example is because they're a gigantic partner of ours. So I'm able to work with them because we are a scaled partner and I'm able to make things because of that scale. That is really important. So in my world, if and if I don't have that and a client calls me and says, I want sports consulting. That is not what we do. I can say, great, I can call Agency X and I'm going to bring my friends into this session. They're trusted partners. I brief them. It's much faster for the client.

47:25They don't have to worry about all the other things.

47:28Hank Green:And this is such a complicated and multifaceted world with so much expertise necessary. It sounds like it would be very difficult to compete as a smaller agency. You need to be very good to compete as a small agency. And if you're very good, you can do well because most skilled clients also have determined a partner that's large. that can do the big things like media, like your media partner. So then that sort of enables some of these smaller players to come in and out because someone else has solved the big infrastructure need in the marketing world. Okay, last question, maybe a bit of a biggie.

48:04Hank Green:I was listening to the last time you were talking to Neelai and you talked last year about advertising is a thing that usually runs with some of the kind of media. So it runs against a YouTube video, against a TV show, against a print magazine. We are, I think, it is a transitional moment, a bit of a crisis moment for media, I think. Media is getting passed over by Google. Those page views aren't coming in because we've got a lot of different ways that Google is eating up that traffic. It's had revenue eaten by platforms like Facebook and Google for going on decades now. So where does advertising go when there like isn't a media left for it to be placed upon?

48:49This, you know, every brand has a different version of this depending on.

48:55Hank Green:Every brand like a partner that like someone you're partnering with. Yeah. Like think, you know, a retailer versus a package good brand versus a travel partner. OK. And that so that you're some of them are more dependent on paid than others. so if you're a brand today you have to really be thinking about how do i get closer to my consumers so that i can act as a brand as a publisher so think about certain brands you might have downloaded the app and they're already in your phone you already have a relationship with that brand and then therefore i'm not as dependent on investing more dollars in meta or google or whoever, because I have you.

49:36I've won the battle of the storefront on your phone.

49:39Hank Green:That is a battle. Especially in the world of search and AI, this is an interesting thing when you're watching that shift. So you as a brand really have to be the answer for something. So then I know, oh, this brand is the answer for this. And then how they're going to help me be a better runner, how they're help me going to be a better parent. I'm not dependent on what is fed to me through search platform, whatever. And I'm going to make that decision. Oh, I know that this brand is going to be my brand. You're probably thinking of certain brands you just automatically go to. Yeah. And you need to be able to figure out how you're balancing out your need for paid to basically engage with those that are your fans.

50:25And then you keep them to be your super fans.

50:28Hank Green:I mean, what you just described is making content, right? Brands need to be content distribution systems to be able to play within and out. Do you think that the bigger part of that will be partnering with, you know, influencers and creators and stuff? Or will it be themselves being the, like, internal content creation? I mean, I think that creator collabs are a must for modern brands. bringing creators in is like bringing in a series of best friends we all follow creators that they feel like they're your friend and then all of a sudden you're but even that is very fractured like it's not it's not like there's a michael jordan anymore like if you're working with creators and instagram on instagram in a market that i'm super interested like science communicators there might be somebody who has a hundred thousand or five hundred thousand followers that i've i have never heard of.

51:22Hank Green:And like, that's my business. So that like, it's crazy how much work that can be. And I assume that you've acquired or built a big thing like that internally. Yes. So we acquired Influential, then Captivate. This enables us to have access to 15 million creators globally. That enables you to quickly find these micro influencers or creators, whatever language you want to use. We had a lot of debate about this the last time. Yeah, actually, I wanted to ask you about that. My position is the same on it. And I, you know, every time I hear it on a, see a client brief, it's wildly, is it a creator is an influencer?

52:02I would say creators don't want to be treated as influencers, but they all really want to be Hollywood stars eventually. So it is a very interesting fluid space. I'll push back against that.

52:13Hank Green:So influencer is a big pet peeve of mine. And I have appreciated that you don't sort of default to that term. And I think that there are definitely people who are influencers. I think that we maybe use that differently, though. What I hear you say, influencer, tends to mean that it's a larger, a person with a larger following. Yes. Is that sort of how you consider it? That's how I consider it. And it's almost, to me, the future is collaborating with creators, big and small. And your brand has to show up with a place and a point of view so that creator feels connected to it authentically. And then you co-create what makes sense.

52:56And then the community can feed back on how do I make the next product extension? What is that thing that I should be doing? The creators are, the community is fantastic at feeding your pipeline. And I think the more you have a fluid relationship with creators, the more you will be successful because consumers see themselves in creators before they see themselves in a brand.

53:23Hank Green:Agreed. Yes. This is and like, you know, this is why creators are creating brands, because it's easier to draw the line for your audience from this is me to this is the thing I made than it is from this is me to like, this is the thing someone else made that I like. Yes. But then I think some creators have that's their hope and dream is to create this. A brand, but also you get into supply chain dynamics. Oh, yeah. It's hard. It's hard. It sounds great, but it's hard. No, it is. Yeah. I mean, it's not something I would have gotten into if I hadn't had 15 years of messing around in the space before.

54:05Hank Green:Of course. But I'll hit you with my influencer definition, which is that the reason I don't like it is because it defines my job as what I do for you rather than what I do for my audience. So my job isn't to influence my audience. My job is to make things that they will like. and then I am paid to influence them by companies sometimes. So my job is an influencer. My job is a creator. But absolutely, I see that the way that, like the job that I do for, you know, when someone buys a brand deal on Hank's channel, the job that I do for that person is influencing. But the job that I do for my audience is delighting and educating and having a good time and, you know, giving them something that they're a part of and having fun with.

54:51Yeah, I love that distinction. I'm going to steal it. Great. The reason I don't like influencers.

54:56Hank Green:This is the whole reason I agreed to do this for Neil Eyes so that that would happen. I'm starting it today. But I would say that like the one of the main reasons I stay away from using the word influencer is when I watch my daughter that's in college react, she's like, ugh, she can tell. Right. Well, that's the thing is that the people who really their whole job is working for marketing companies is like, oh, they're not making very authentic content. Right. So I don't love the influencer concept. I like the idea of creators informing, again, being a brand's best friend and saying like, hey, maybe you should do this.

55:34That's how I think of creators and how I counsel our brands and how creators are a meaningful part of their, almost their marketing organization, really.

55:44Hank Green:Okay, last, last question. Is advertising getting easier or harder right now? I think it's getting, I think it's the same. That is the hottest take I could have imagined you having. Everything feels like it's changing so much right now. Right, but it's always been changing. And here's why I think it's the same. My orientation is around, did this drive my client's business? So if that's always been your orientation and you're using the data to say, did this sell more things. Did I recruit more consumers in? It's the same. If you're holding on to what you think it used to be, which is we're setting culture, everyone will do exactly what we'll do, what we want them to do, then it's really hard.

56:36But I've never, I grew up in a different, again, I'm a quant. The founder that I work for picked people that weren't really marketing and advertising people. And he trained all of us to have this point, a consulting point of view. The only thing that matters is if you're surprising and delighting consumers and if they're buying more things. So if that's always been your North Star, it's the same.

57:00Hank Green:Well, but is it not harder to get people to buy more things? I guess not. People are buying stuff. So now you can also, so what's harder now is what's the single source of truth and how do you measure that, that's hard because there's a lot of new ways to get at that same North Star. Do you mean the truth in terms of the message you're getting to consumers or the truth in terms of? No, like there's when you think about all the different data and tech partners, everyone comes in with it did this, it did that, it did this, it did that. And to our previous commentary on different media partners and how they measure things, it's all not the same.

57:35Hank Green:That's got to be so frustrating. That part is hard. Who's the worst at it? Who do you trust the least with their data that they show you? I can't. I'll get in trouble if I answer that. But there's somebody in there? Of course. Yeah. And my thing is that you can't trust any of them. You need a healthy, unbiased partner to look across to be able to really have the right point of view on what happened in the market. And again, sales matter. Sales is a pretty good outcome of did we sell more things? That's the easy one. which is versus brand favorability or some of these other looser things that do matter, but can be a little squishy.

58:22Hank Green:Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I wish there was more sort of brand favorability kind of advertising in my world. I feel like I'm really sales focused. Like the partners that I work with are very much like, I don't really care. I don't really care how you did as long as we made more money than it cost us to advertise with you. That's all we care about, which is understandable. But sometimes I just wish I could have a big old Toyota sponsorship or something. Well, brands need both. You need to be thinking fast and slow because if everything is focused on, buy now, do this, then you don't remember that brand.

58:59So you do need to create these emotional structures with consumers.

59:03Hank Green:Well, keep me in mind is all I'll say. I'll keep you in mind. I've got a whole company of educational media. It's very brand safe, good people doing interesting things, big halo around it. You can help make the world better. Just advertise with Complexly. Okay. Okay. All right. I'm into it. Send me your stuff. Oh, well, of course. All right. Amy, thank you so much. Thank you. For coming on Decoder. I learned so much. It was awesome. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

59:33Hank Green:I'd like to thank Amy Lanzi for taking the time to speak with me. And thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed it. If you'd like to let us know what you thought about this show or what else you'd like us to cover, drop us a line. You can email the team at decoder at the verge dot com. They really do read every email or hit me up directly on threads or blue sky. Decoder has a tick tock and Instagram. You can check those out at decoder pod. They're a lot of fun. If you like decoder, please share it with your friends and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

1:00:04Hank Green:Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Stat and edited by Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. See you next time.

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