Episode 59 - Dominic Murphy and Frontline National Security

29:56Because that's what we're really looking to do here. We're looking to understand people, and people are very complex. and terrorists with multiple motivations are particularly complex and so in when to intervene and ensure that we we are when we intervene we want to sustain disruption we want somebody to be either in custody or under some form of controls in the community or receiving psychiatric help they might need but in a way that is sustained or for public protection and that's really hard when you start talking about trying to understand people's personalities and drivers for why they do things.

30:35It's one of the reasons, Sajjan, why sometimes the right-wing threat we face is a bit more complicated than some of the other threats we face because the ideology and motivations can be really difficult. And of course, we're talking about extremes here. When I talk about right-wing, I am talking about extreme right-wing terrorism. And those mixed motivations can often be really challenging.

30:59Dr. Sajjan Gohel:Yes, it is. It's deeply challenging. I'm glad also you brought in that aspect of violent pornography, because that definitely has become a major social issue in terms of the challenges that we face. Before we pivot to dealing with hostile state actors, there's one more question I had actually on terrorism, and that was to do with Salman Abedi, the Manchester arena bombing and his brother, Hashim Abedi, who assisted him in that, who was in Libya when the attack unfolded. How difficult was the process in getting Hashim Abedi extradited from Libya? Because I have to be honest, when I heard that there was this effort to get him back, I actually genuinely did not think it was going to be possible.

31:48And full credit to all of you for

31:50Dr. Sajjan Gohel:being able to make sure that happened and bring him to justice for being involved in that horrific terrorist attack. Yeah, thank you. Look, really important to say here, I'm the commander of cancer terrorism policing in London, right? But equally, I also have responsibility for international operations for cancer terrorism policing. So everything we do internationally comes from here. But some amazing work by my colleagues, Tiki policing in the Northwest, So up in Manchester in a securing the evidence, but be really driving the intent from all of the international partners we need when you're getting to that extradition process, which from a country like Libya.

32:30But by the way, lots of countries in the world, extradition is negotiated on a case by case basis. and whilst it's very difficult for me to talk about and when those negotiations are underway we can't really talk about it because there are there are all sorts of legal and diplomatic challenges with that but yes I thought this was going to be difficult and my only real involvement in that part of it was to facilitate our international operations relationships to help our colleagues in the northwest of the UK but this was a really sustained effort and it took a lot of people, government involvement, a huge amount of cooperation internationally to achieve that.

33:11But actually, the drive and focus, and it sometimes gets lost a little bit, Sajjan, in the emotion of it, the drive and focus of my colleagues in the Northwest and anyone involved in this process to bring anyone responsible, including Hashem, to justice for the victims is an overriding sense that you will see in lots of policing, but you'll definitely see in counter-terrorism policing, where I come back to my first point really early on, actually. This is all about the victims and the families and getting justice for them and then keeping the wider public safe, learning the lessons, as we have done after the public inquiry.

33:51So it was something of a coup to achieve that, I have to say, but it took a huge effort over a long period of time. And of course, some very forward thinking from elements of the Libyan state to be able to facilitate that activity. So it's, I was really impressed that the team could achieve it.

34:19Dr. Sajjan Gohel:Most definitely. And yes, shout out to friends in counterterrorism policing Northwest. I know them very well. and they do a great job. Really impressive, Sergeant. Really impressed. Absolutely. In a normal scenario, Dominic, this conversation would have been enough for anybody to be in awe of the challenges and the work that you've been doing. But you also have an additional portfolio, which I now want to talk about, and that is dealing with hostile state actors. You had to deal with the incident in Salisbury where Russian agents were involved using the chemical agent Novichok to try and kill a Russian dissident and his daughter.

35:06Dr. Sajjan Gohel:And we saw that fatalities actually did emerge from that, and it had huge consequential impact on the UK. When you first received the briefing that a suspected nerve agent was involved, what went through your mind operationally? Because I can't imagine that this was a normal type of thing that you were having to deal with. Yeah, well, funny enough, so seven and a half years down the road now, Sajan, and just in the last two weeks, clearly, we've seen Lord Hughes present his report from the public inquiry. And, you know, Lord Hughes heard a lot of evidence. I myself did eight or nine, maybe even 10 days worth of evidence in that inquiry.

35:47And I've had a lot of time to reflect on the answer to your question, Sajan, really. And this was really, truly unprecedented. But I had already been involved and leading CT Policing's response to hostile state threats work for a few years before 2018. and it was a burgeoning mission that was growing in the past. The special branch had done some of this work. But since 2006 and the creation of SF-15 and an end to the Cold War, as was at the time, we saw a distinct change in the threat, really. So we did pivot a lot to counter-terrorism. And I was on the Litvinenko investigation as well, Sajjan, important to say, very junior role in that, by the way, But on that investigation, and I saw the effort and the work and the engagement on that.

36:36So taking some of that learning, and in fact, I even spoke to a couple of the original investigators of the Litvinenko case at the very start of Salisbury. Because anything that involves actual Russian spies on the ground in the United Kingdom conducting activity comes with huge complexity in terms of how you handle the intelligence, the information, how successful the Russians or any other foreign country in these cases could disrupt our investigation. So, you know, really unusual from the start to be treating this as a highly sensitive, top secret investigation from the moment we start. And it might seem a little odd as soon as I work in national security and counterterrorism, But to respond to a potential assassination attempt and the subsequent death of Dawn Sturgis, whose parents conducted themselves with such amazing resilience throughout the whole of the public inquiry, is really unusual, that top secret nature.

37:38But I remember my first discussion when we found out it was Novichok. And interestingly, at the time, we found out it was a fourth generation nerve agent. There still had to be lots of discussions on exactly what it was and where it come from. Your focus is the same thing, Sajjan. How do you find it, keep the public safe, identify who used it, when and how, as a means of identifying who was responsible so that you can try and bring them to justice. And if you stick to those really essential principles of why we're here as the police when a major incident happens and you need to investigate it, then I don't think you can go wrong.

38:23And because ultimately what sits behind you are a set of values that are so important to victims, their families, the public, and why you even exist as a service to deliver that. how you do it might change and in this case it was very different by the way but how you do it might change but not the reasons why you're doing it and that helps you drive your prioritization and your work in a way that cuts across nearly everything that we do.

38:50Dr. Sajjan Gohel:Many consider Salisbury to be a turning point for modern UK national security. How did that investigation reshape Britain's approach to dealing with hostile state actors? So I think it, and I would agree with that analysis as well, by the way, that it did reshape. It certainly reshaped counterterrorism policing's response to it as the national response to it. But colleagues in the National Crime Agency do some impressive work in this space as well, by the way, and it shaped how they do work. But it also reshaped how our intelligence, the intelligence community, our international partners and government approach this as well.

39:26What it did, I think, Sachin, was was demonstrate what many of us had been saying and was that we were seeing an uptick in activity by Russia, but also by the Iranian state and by others. And we were beginning to see that coming through in operational activity here in the United Kingdom. It wasn't, you know, I heard the NATO Secretary General interviewed on television, on the radio yesterday, talking about Russia. And this wasn't a remote thing happening somewhere else that was of interest and concern and important to us. This was something happening here. We were seeing more and more activity by individuals in the United Kingdom, not on the scale of Salisbury by any stretch, by the way.

40:16But, you know, we were certainly getting involved in more investigations than when Salisbury happened. We looked at what was behind it. We looked at we had a, you know, a very, very comprehensive and detailed investigation, not just responding to Salisbury, but in the manhunt investigation. And specifically at the early stage, I led the manhunt part of this. Who was responsible? Why did they do it and where are they now and how do we get them in custody? jointly with another senior officer who also did an amazing job who's uh has anonymity so i can't mention his name but did a brilliant job at responding to the crime scenes and between us we work so closely together with our intelligence and international partners when it became clear all really did sajan was vindicate that here was the start of what we had said we'd seen developing which was this increase in operational activity in the united kingdom and what it meant to us and yeah I really felt a tangible sense of this is a game changer for us and what it's meant to me is I came back from Salisbury I worked differently with intelligence and international partners I worked differently with counter-terrorism policing and in addition to my CT portfolio worked nationally with senior leaders from here to create a hostile state threats mission within city policing.

41:37So how do we pivot some resource, change our ways of working and think differently about state threats? So now we have two solid missions, counterterrorism and state threats is our growing and essential mission for hostile states. We'll continue to build it. And we're seeing a level of work that I don't think anyone really expected, but that truly shows Salisbury and then events in Ukraine really do seem to have fast forwarded Russia to being a very specific and difficult threat domestically in this country, not just overseas.

42:14Dr. Sajjan Gohel:That's really interesting how that's shaped and developed and how you're at the center of creating that whole apparatus to deal with that threat. You hold, as we've been discussing, the national responsibility for counter-state threats. Without going into any specifics, what trends worry you the most when it comes to the three countries that seem to get mentioned the most, Russia, China, Iran, in terms of their clandestine activity? And does it differ in any way? Well, what worries me most is the speed with which some of their activity is accelerating. So we do see an awful lot of demand now coming from particularly from Russia and Iran, but not universally.

43:10We still see some threats from China. I think the second thing that I have in my mind is the breadth of work. So you can see transnational repression perhaps at one end of the scale, which is to victims, by the way, is terrible. And transnational repression is our umbrella term for when foreign states are trying to repress individuals or communities here in London. So you might see the Iranian state trying to harass and force individuals from the Iranian community, dissidents or outspoken individuals against the government, to return to Iran or to some other country where they can potentially be kidnapped and forced to return to their home countries.

43:54You might see their families being harassed in their home country. And you might see online activities. is a terrible example in recent times from somebody who was subjected to what's become known as the Hong Kong bounties, who was subjected to where their neighbours were sent some terrible information about them. That transnational oppression, whilst is really, really impactive on victims, by the way, it does tend to not necessarily involve substantial amounts of violence and threat to the wider public. right through all of the information gathering, espionage, even recently sabotage activity becoming increasingly common in our workload, right through to targeted assassinations.

44:41And that breadth is very challenging, which is why we need to focus so much time on this and deal with it slightly differently to counterterrorism. And it's really important. And I think the third thing I'll say is that what we've seen since Salisbury is there's lots of different reasons for this, by the way, but I think one of them is the hostile environment we've begun to create here in the United Kingdom. It's much harder for these countries to operate with their own operatives on the ground in the United Kingdom than it's ever been, in most cases anyway. And it means that we're seeing this proliferation of criminal proxies.

45:20And that is a stark change in the last sort of 18 months, two years that we've seen. And they're often young people, but not always. And they're not always criminal proxies, by the way. We're seeing legitimate businesses being asked to do things which it turns out are for foreign intelligence agencies, private detective agencies, or there's been a few examples of this. And that change in operating model means we need to really be very agile and pivot to the threat very quickly. And I'm pleased to say that some of our new relationships with intelligence and international partners means we can do exactly that and that's why we're confronting you'll have seen me talking publicly and your listeners would have heard me talk about this more than ever before because we're now pivoting so much towards disrupting that threat in a different way and it's having some success but you know we always learn from these things we're

46:11Dr. Sajjan Gohel:never complacent about that it's um fascinating and chilling at the same time as yeah it's definitely a different landscape, yeah. Definitely. To move to the final sort of segment of our discussion, Dominic, which is leadership. Recently, we saw that awful terrorist attack that occurred in Bondi Beach in Australia. And we saw the modus operandi, where you had individuals using firearms to kill innocent people on the beach. And it was interesting to also see how it was unfolding in real time. What is the first thing you want to know in a major incident that comes across your desk? If in general, and perhaps, perhaps, if you can also comment also as to what transpired in Australia.

47:06Yeah, well, you know, absolutely, I'm sure you and your listeners will understand that, you know, so close to a significant incident like that in a foreign country, it'd be very, very difficult for me to talk with any authority or comment really on what happened and there will of course be a substantial investigation I have an awful lot of trust and confidence in our Australian Federal Police colleagues and our policing colleagues in Australia I work very closely with them and I know that the professionalism they'll bring to that investigation I have confidence will be at the highest possible levels but I what I think we saw there that is quite unusual and that we wouldn't have seen before is we've pretty much seen, haven't we, a live streamed terrorist attack.

47:53At one point, there's a drone filming that's publishing its footage about what is happening. This is something that I suppose we've been anticipating and could see, but still has been quite a rare thing to actually see in terrorist attacks that happen. Sometimes the individual might film themselves, but that's a very different thing to what we've seen here. and so it does mean a tremendous amount of evidence is available to you very quickly to try and understand what's happened to try and give families answers to how their loved ones were injured or killed which still remains again I come back to my first point really why that's so important but then of course how do you make sure that you because if I was sitting at my desk and someone called me and said there was a terrorist attack like that happening right now I have confidence that my frontline policing colleagues and my firearms colleagues are going to be doing their best to keep the public safe and putting themselves in harm's way to make sure that happens.

48:51I don't have any doubt about that at all, much as I didn't have any doubt about what's what happened in Australia and that that was probably the case there as well. none whatsoever. I'm thinking, well, that's happening. How can I get as much information about who they are and what they're doing so I can then understand the wider threat to the public and get in front of anything else that might be happening? So I'm almost singularly focused. Well, that terrorist attack is being brought to a close and the public are being kept safe. How do I make sure I'm looking at that wider picture and understand how I can keep the public safe from any enduring threat that's out there.

49:26It's frequently, Sajjan, why you'll see us after these cases, and in 2017 you saw this a lot by the way, is we'll track anybody connected to those individuals, we'll investigate them, and if we need to arrest them, very quickly. Because we will not tolerate that enduring threat to the public from that incident, and so we're focused on it. So for me, sitting in a national security counter-terrorism leadership role, I would be making sure my resources were doing everything they can to respond to that incident, investigate and support victims and their families, and making sure that I was doing everything in my power to pursue those responsible, find out who was behind it, and in essence keep the public safe from any further threat that might exist from that case.

50:12And as is often the case, unfortunately it does work like this, when you see a terrorist attack, sometimes others can be motivated by that attack and so then we have to widen our gaze with our intelligence partners on what it really means um outside of that specific incident what does it really mean to our public safety more broadly and there are always the things that occur to me and um and so it's even in australia i'm already thinking exactly what my colleagues and my peers there will be will be thinking which is okay what comes next so you know policing and others are doing them but the public in Australia's case you saw the response from the public that is astonishing by the way the bravery of some of those people that try to intervene there is is inspiring nonetheless I'm thinking okay well you know if it was me now what would I be doing to protect the public from a wider threat it's probably a very long answer sorry Sajjan but it's such an important part of what we do.

51:13It sort of goes to the heart of why we're here, really.

51:15Dr. Sajjan Gohel:No, and it's a really important answer. And thank you for providing such clarity, especially when the information picture can be confused or contradictory at times. And it just helps for everyone who's listening to understand how law enforcement deals with something that's unfolding. And I absolutely agree with you that the Australian Federal Police, as well as New South Wales Police, they have some really outstanding people, and they will completely unpack exactly what transpired. So one thing, Dominic, that you have been doing in your role is that you speak to the media. And you've always been a very measured, reassuring and informative voice when you engage with problems that have emerged in the UK and perhaps have a wider dimension.

52:02Dr. Sajjan Gohel:How do you approach communication with the media during a fast moving crisis? Because on the one hand, you want to keep the public aware of what's going on, but obviously you can't share operational sensitive material. So you make it look easy, but it can't be that easy. It really isn't easy. And I don't know if I would say I enjoy it, but I do like the process of trying to, the public is such an important part of what we do, Sajj. And they really just go to the heart of everything. if our relationship in counterterrorism breaks down with the public we're not going to get the information we're not going to get you know ahead of time to help respond that people aren't going to have confidence in how safe they feel from terrorism or national security threats and so and I always think about it in my mind as I get the opportunity to talk to the public about something that to me seems every day but I realize to lots of people it isn't and that that can then cause them some concern or they can be unsure about things so if I can go and do something that informs them but and helps them to stay alert but in no way alarms them about what we're doing that's I know it's a difficult but I mean the work we did on Daniel Khalif is the one that strikes me because we very rarely do these very live daily media briefs that are interested here's an incident happening this is what we want the public to do for us and that was my first time at doing something like that.

53:30But I felt that the public were tremendously engaged in it and the media were incredible. And the media get coming for quite a lot of criticism. I have to say, in our world, when we want to get messages across, even now, we're talking about in the winter season as we come into the spring and we're talking about winter vigilance and how the public can be alert and try and stay safe and call us and how to get in touch with us. The media are such an important part of that. And so something I've had to learn, Sajan, I'm going to tell you and your listeners a secret that I tell very few people. Before I joined the police, this is terrible.

54:08I was a DJ and karaoke host, Sajan. So I'm used to standing up in front of people and embarrassing myself. So I didn't really approach the media with any particular concern. But such an important part of what we do. and I have found the media so open to having discussions and and long form just like this Sajjan is so important because you get to have the conversation we're having which is to really talk about why we're here and why and why we do what we do and sometimes you just don't get that chance to talk to people like that and um so yeah but it is a it's a nerve-wracking thing but because you're in the world's media aren't you and I have children and they they give me direct feedback, Sajjan.

54:51You won't be surprised to learn. And in fact, the very first time I did for Daniel Cleef, my phone was vibrating in my pocket and I waited a while. And then when the media finished, I looked at my phone and it said, it's true what they say, Dom, the camera adds£10. So I think that tells you where we are in policing, that people will give you some very honest feedback, Sajjan.

55:13Dr. Sajjan Gohel:Well, I won't reveal what my family say about what I do. so okay there you go but we can we'll touch some share pain there that's good absolutely i'm probably more shocked that you revealed that you had a background as a dj uh we'll deal with that another podcast i was young i needed the money said yeah it's fine fair enough um we we spoke earlier um about misogyny its ties to extremism and terrorism um on the plus side we've also seen that there's been greater support and advocacy for women attaining senior positions in the police and national security. You yourself have been a major advocate for that.

55:52Dr. Sajjan Gohel:I wanted to also mention the initiative by our mutual friend, Alison Duncan-Mercy, who's director for strategy for counterterrorism policing, whose initiative wins women in national security is growing by the second. Why is things like this important? And also, how does one get more male advocates for this endeavor? My experience is that I don't think I have a problem identifying male advocates for that endeavor. I'm not sure some speak out necessarily as publicly as they might, but I I never experienced anything other than, you know, absolutely positive role models and advocates for increasing both the diversity of our workforce, which in CT can sometimes be a problem.

56:47But, you know, the gender balance in our workforce. But also me personally, Sajjan, the truth is some of the most inspiring people I've in a senior leadership role I've ever worked for in this organisation have been female. Now, Terry Nicholson was one of the most inspiring people I've ever worked for. I loved working for Cressida Dick when she was the assistant commissioner here, Specialist Operations and in as the commissioner of the Met. These are some of the strongest female role models you could possibly imagine and just inspire everyone around them. It doesn't really matter what gender you are or what background you're from.

57:26They're just astonishing people. and the work Alison's doing with WINS and well supported by our Five Eyes community just demonstrates really that, you know, we're looking at a different way of bringing people into counter-terrorism and I did some articles on Police Now recently and we're using some direct entry means of trying to recruit from a different group of people and bring people in to bring different skills and perspectives into counter-terrorism. Police now has allowed us to see a significant majority of people coming in to try and join us are female candidates and from a very diverse background.

58:11And it is incredibly valuable to see that. And if all I'm doing is being a voice and an advocate for allowing that to happen, I'll stand at the top of the building and shout about it, it's fine, because it's inspiring to see some of these young people coming in who, and they're coming in with a different perspective on life, Sajan, which you can't all be like me in my mid-50s and 30-something years in policing now. We need people to come in with different skills and backgrounds, and if you can't be advocates for role models and strong female leadership in our organisation, and how are you going to change the organisation if you can't really just have the right representation?

58:50and it's something I know that the Mets have been doing huge amounts of work on after a you know a really terrible couple of years now but I'm already beginning to see some of that positive difference in in in some of the behavior we see as an organization our professionalism but in also how we have these conversations with the public is so important.

59:10Dr. Sajjan Gohel:I appreciate you speaking on that but also on the fact that you mentioned Terry Nicholson we've had her on the podcast and on Dame Cressida Dick, both really, really outstanding and impressive and inspiring people. If we go back, Dominic, in time, if I could take you back in time, and if you could give advice to a young constable, Dominic Murphy, something you wish you knew when you started, what would that have been? I'll give you a serious answer, and then lots of serious answers, if you don't mind,

59:45I think policing gives you a perspective on life that is so incredibly valuable. And I don't think I really had any idea. I joined my local force, Satchan, as a PC, and I tried to do it at 18. And they told me that I was from a small village in Hertfordshire and I couldn't join. I needed to go and do something with my life first. So I went off and did some stuff, went to Camp America. I became a DJ and karaoke host, actually. But and then but then a couple of years later, I went back and they accepted me and I joined at the age of 21. And but I joined my local force because I really wanted to do this locally.

1:00:28That localism was so important to me. But I as a young officer, I think I probably would say to myself again, then you really just need to, it's about doing the right thing. And those principles that we've spoken about during our talk here, if you stick to those principles and maintain that you're doing all the right things for all the right reasons, this policing can take you to some astonishing places and some extraordinary experiences, and you can really try and make the best possible impression on people and have an impact on their lives in some way. I would have I would have probably just pointed to the future and said keep just doing this stuff really well because in those first few years it can be quite difficult as a probationer you know in a uniform environment and then moving into a CID environment yeah it's a bit difficult so I would have said that the second thing I would have said to myself is embrace the baldness Sajjan because it's coming and you might as well just get on board with it I think I probably didn't embrace it quite quickly enough and had some odd haircuts in my early service

1:01:34Dr. Sajjan Gohel:well you you pull it off so naturally and so well yeah yeah i'm a slightly overweight older jason statham obviously well so this takes me to the last question then if if a movie is made uh about a real life national security crisis and you were going to be featured your character was going to be in that what actor would you want to play you You've mentioned Jason Statham. Yep, I think that's a good one. I should mention some of your colleagues, when I was telling them that I was having you on the podcast, they suggested some ideas too. I'm not going to reveal them or what they suggested, but I'd be curious for your take on this.

1:02:19Thanks very much. So, well, I have joked that obviously, clearly anyone looking at me would think it was Jason Statham, but there is a certain, a very high level of irony in that, by the way, because that's clearly not the case. It's a good question. I don't know. I haven't really given it much thought. My wife would have said a few years ago, wearing my glasses, that one of the former stars of MasterChef might have been the person. But I'm not sure we should talk about that individual or bring that one up any longer. And more broadly, usually some sort of comedy character comes to people's mind uh sarjan so uh who who knows do you know what what one day i hope somebody does tell the story of salisbury in a in a in a movie do you know i am i live near near salisbury and one of the things that i think gets a bit lost is the people of salisbury were astonishing sarja and so if they're ever going to be a movie made of anything that i was ever involved in that story and that picked up the sort of people of Salisbury and how and how they their resilience and and Dawn's family and their resilience which was astonishing that would be an incredible story to tell plus I'm sure my colleagues in in international intelligence probably wouldn't want us to tell that story too much but I I think what an amazing incredible thing to talk about.

1:03:44Dr. Sajjan Gohel:Definitely would be something everyone would want to watch. You've provided over the last hour of this discussion a remarkable career. You've shown how humble you are. There's a clear aspect of your compassion for victims, which you have spoken about continuously. You've demonstrated that empathy. You've brought in humor, all these different characteristics. I mean, I've known you for a little bit of time, and I know you resemble all of these attributes, but I'm so glad that we could have this discussion. Really grateful, Dominic, that you could spend this time. I know how busy you are with God knows what is happening outside the doors as unfolding as we speak.

1:04:28Dr. Sajjan Gohel:So I'm really grateful that you could spend this time on NATO deep dive and perhaps have you again in the future to talk about God knows what may materialize. yeah Sajan look thank you very much I've really enjoyed it and it's great to see you we've been in several of the same places talking about some really really challenging things Sajan so it's it's nice to be able to reflect with you on it look I feel like I'm the luckiest person in policing and probably the luckiest person alive 32 years and I I love coming to work every day Sajan but you know my career 32 years it's all sort of probably coming to a little bit of an end now I feel like I've done my time and there's some amazing people coming behind me Sajjan who I think rightly should should get a chance to have a look so we'll see what the next year brings but it's been great talking to you about it it's it's wonderful to reflect on it as well and some of the people that I've been worked with has been incredible thank you well thank you And it's been our honor and our pleasure.

1:05:58Dr. Sajjan Gohel:Please note that the views, information, or opinions expressed in the NATO Deep Dive series are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of NATO or Deep.