Ariane Spanier on Typography as Visual Voice

0:00From the Association of Registered Graphic Designers, this is the Design Thinkers podcast. Design Thinkers is Canada's largest graphic design conference. Originally launched to mark the conference's 25th anniversary, the podcast now reaches a global audience of designers and creatives. Join our host and RGG president, Nicola Hamilton, as she connects with Design Thinker speakers to explore the work and ideas shaping today's design industry. This week on the Design Thinkers podcast, I'm joined by Ariane Spanier, a Berlin-based designer working at the intersection of typography, culture, and editorial design.

0:38Ariane's built a practice working closely with cultural institutions, think museums, publications, and artists. It's in those spaces where design isn't just about communication, it's about interpretation. She's also the creative director and co-editor of Fucht, a long-running magazine dedicated to contemporary drawing known for its experimental and often very tactile typographic covers. In this conversation, we unpack her Design Thinker's talk, which will be called Type with an Accent. We talk about what it means to think about typography not as a neutral thing, but as something that carries voice, identity, and has history.

1:14We talk about the tension between rules and expression, how designers develop their own personal and visual accent, and why your first instinct is often a very honest place to start from. We also get into her work on Fucht and how using typography in a more physical and expressive way can completely change how a publication is experienced by its readers. This one is for anyone thinking about their own voice as a designer, folks thinking about how it forms, how that voice evolves, and how to just trust it. Well, I'm so excited that you could give us some time. I've been thinking a lot about how so much of the work that you've done over the years is sort of in this largely cultural institution space.

1:58And I'm so curious because I have you, how did you find your way into that space? I feel like that's a space that designers like aspire to do work in because we assume there is more room for creativity in those spaces. So first, I'm curious, how'd you find your way into that space? Was that a conscious decision or did it evolve? over the years was it a conscious decision yes and no because it all started it started super early to go in that direction already in uh in in art school or art and design school i started to get you know uh into contact with a lot of artists artists who i i went to an i think it is an art college or an art academy you would you would call it art and design academy here i think uh comparable to that so I studied design there but um yeah of course there was a lot of fine arts and other departments um mixed um and we got to know each other and I while I was still studying I started to work for some of them also a professor there like sometimes she would you know take their students to to trips or do exhibitions with them and I started to design their catalogs or something So and somehow I got into that field through that, or at least it was a start of it, I think, because after I finished my studies, after I graduated, I also immediately continued with that because that would have been some publications and catalogs that I then had already designed.

3:38And yeah, as it often is, you know, you get asked for what you have done before. And it's just that I always felt also very comfortable in this field. Yeah, like when you say that a lot of people want it or designers want to be in that field, there is something that, yeah, in terms of freedom or creative freedom, I guess there's more of an understanding between clients and the design work, which can in some cases also maybe be a little bit controlling you know like um sometimes a a client with that background might also have very strong opinions um on this i think that is something that can happen everywhere though and in general like to say this um the the great thing about this is that there is more of a mutual understanding of what we're doing uh for sure in terms of, yeah, the topics to work for.

4:40I mean, this is something I get interested in almost everything I would work for or do design for. So I'm also happy if that maybe not necessarily culture. But I mean, culture goes in many different directions. That could be arts, fine arts. That could be movies. That, you know, it can be documentaries. It can be books and publications. But it's still wide enough to find interesting topics within that and to get to know new things or have to learn about new things. Yeah, so it kind of happened organically, basically. I started out already when I studied and then it just continued with the more I did, the more also I got requests and commissions from this field.

5:31And yeah, I think I'm still quite happy to be in that area because it's, yeah, I think this understanding of each other, this is sometimes that makes client work between designer and client work really, yeah, a really nice experience where, I don't know, we have the same vocabulary also, you know, to speak about and to talk the same language in a way. And I think that is, yeah, that is quite, I don't want to say fruitful. I can't think of a better word, but yeah, it's really rewarding, I think. Yeah, rewarding is probably a good word. I think while you were talking, I was thinking about like, oh yeah, I guess, you know, in work that you're doing in cultural or art spaces, there is a shared language and an understanding of process.

6:29that would be helpful to the process and give you a bit more freedom. But at times that shared language would also mean your clients would have better cases to make when they disagreed with you. Right. Like they would have more language to communicate that, which is good and bad. Yeah, I mean, that is true. But it also means that you definitely can learn from them as well. you know so it only gets problematic if the client maybe and that can also happen in all fields yeah probably feels like they really know a lot about this and but there are still so many that that yeah just let go and let you do not whatever you want but mostly so that depends on the size of the project on the is it a bigger institution a small like you know but your your question was regarding that people have more vocabulary to talk you down, basically, to argue for that something is good or another fitting or not fitting.

7:31But I think there's more of a positive element to this language that we speak. And it makes it rather quick in terms of understanding each other what's maybe wrong or what goes with it. something. Yeah, or pushing the work further because of that, right? It's the same practice we would do internally with other designers before presenting. But in this case, you probably get more opportunities to do that with clients. Yeah, it's a lot of this exchange with clients directly. So your design thinkers talk description, you're going to be talking about typography, which makes me so happy to sort of put someone on stage who's going to talk about talk about this little big part of what we do.

8:19But specifically, it sounds like you're going to be talking about the idea of typography as voice or identity. And I'm curious how you sort of define this idea of voice. Like, what does that actually look like in type to you? Well, I mean, there's so so much expression and look to typography and therefore feeling or atmosphere or you know through texture and and appearance behavior etc so I think there's so much that you can do with typography and for of course like we all kind of know this as designers but there's still huge gaps in between. I mean, there's type design and then there's typographic design.

9:08There's typesetting, you know, where it's just about like being super precise, doing, you know, like being very perfect in typesetting a book, for instance, where you have to be just super focused on detail. And then there's this other thing where typography, and that is, yeah, we see so much of this in the recent, I don't know, 10, 20 years, where typography also because tools got a little bit more democratic and a bit more easier for people to use and create a type where this is used so so much more for all kinds of expression and I think this is yeah and I think in that for me when I when I say voice lies the whole thing I think this, I kind of was brought up with this typography is really something that always takes itself back behind the message or behind the word.

10:05It's really just a geometrical construct that kind of makes up a character in the word. But yeah, it is so much more than that. And it's also this whole, that you can load typography so much. And it's not only the shapes. Of course, it's a lot more. Now we have so much motion at our hands that typography can do so much more. And sometimes it can say something that the word or the words is, you know, it's maybe opposing that even. And it can open up even new meanings. And yeah, so I think this is really, yeah, this is something like also like over a few years, I probably also just, you know, observed like when I think about what am I doing and why am I doing it?

11:01So this is a big part of it, I think. And also like that this is something that I really enjoy. Yeah. I mean, so much of your work is so base rooted in typography. Yeah. Very much rooted in it. Do you think type can ever be neutral? Is there such a thing? as a neutral typeface? I mean, there are many type designers who try to design very neutral typefaces, but even this neutralism is kind of rooted in some Swiss or Bauhaus. You know, there's some reason for why we would think that is neutral. Yeah, the history follows it. Yeah, so yeah. I think like right now in our times with our past decades of design history, yes, we consider a few typefaces more neutral than others.

11:56But I feel like maybe that's just a take on how we look at things right now. And maybe there's the term or the understanding of what is neutral and what isn't that might also change. Yeah, that's an interesting way of thinking about it, because I think you're right. the history of a typeface, who designed it, when it was designed, where it was designed, why it was designed, like that's all. How it was used also for what and for how long was it used? And did we all agree on that that would be a neutral way of designing, you know? And I think there's a lot of that common or community agreement in this term of neutralism as well.

12:37Yeah, no, that's so fascinating. It makes me think a little bit too about the way we've been teaching typography for so long is so sort of rule based, right? Like we teach, we teach emerging designers, all these rules, all these like do's and don'ts. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of value in those rules, but I think there probably are moments where it starts to limit expression too. Yeah. And I'm, I'm really from that, from like, I have a one foot in one side and one, like I, I, of course I, in my studies, you know, I was learning about those rules too. Or even from my family. My father is also a designer, even though he's an industrial designer.

13:18But there is still a strong interest in that. And he probably knows a lot more about these typographic rules than me. But I remember in art school, for instance, when we had to typeset something, there were these rules and they felt very, very limiting at the time. because that was just not, I don't know, that was not the way to use it in a, let's say, expressive way or the way to find a way to bend those rules or do something else with it or really don't consider them at all. It was definitely not taught at the time. And I also, when I was still a student, I didn't I almost didn't dare to to to do it you know like I I didn't experiment with whatever came along it felt like no no no they're they're they're rights and wrongs and we have to follow that and um to make it work to make something work because otherwise I don't know it looks bad or it's it's not getting understood or you know like the reader won't be able to read it yeah there was a lot of, it was a lot of, it was loaded with these type of rules.

14:34The thing that's always been so fascinating about it to me too, is that there are rules, but the rules are almost parameters. Like you have to feel your way into a lot of sort of type typographic rules. A lot of the type setting, you know, it changes from typeface to typeface. There is no mathematical way to do it. You have to observe it. And of course, I mean, this is kind of an old, that's old news, but it it totally helps to have a basic understanding of certain rules. I mean, when I do books today, I'm very happy that at least I paid a little bit attention at some point to some things. So yeah, I mean, one has to train it in a way to exactly to, to see what you just mentioned when a typeface has its quirks.

15:21And even though we bought a license from type designers, they still might be a bit off. It is just something that we, yeah, and then we have to find ways around it. And I mean, yeah, that's maybe more in these kind of micro typography issues in publication, editorial design, where certain small tweaks are just important to make it easier for people. And yeah, in this area, it is definitely good to know a little bit of the craft of typesetting. but yeah it's it's interesting this um this there's kind of a gap between in art school people often get taught like i'm speaking of a long time ago i think that has changed also but there was always this teachers told you yeah be like experimental and do whatever you want and whatever comes to your mind but at the same time it was not really followed through that type of process it was much rather than the next one would be about those typographic rules so there was something this connect these two things to know stuff and then to be a little bit more experimental or just do not think about those that that's something that is not so easy to do or like i felt it need i definitely needed time to probably to feel a bit more safe with certain outcomes also because like when you're young and you haven't done a lot of things yet you need a little bit of an experience of when i do this what happens and even though when we speak about experiments it's also in science when people do experiments they kind of know what they want to you know what their goal is and what they want and and what and then they maybe shape their way to get there or or they have certain parameters that can vary but um i think that this is something um quite interesting and not so easy especially if you are yeah just starting out or uh are still in this kind of um studying uh field and at the university where um yeah these these type of processes need to be learned for sure and it needs to be there needs to be a connection between what I do and what will happen and what what I can count on yeah receiving as results and then I think the more you the more you do and the more you have done things the the easier it gets in a way that's true and I think you know you mentioned that when you're sitting down and designing a book you're you're happy you're thrilled that you did pay attention in school are there rules that you never break are there rules that you are very attached to um no I don't think so I mean I actually I just told someone yesterday actually um that I kind of grew up design wise grew up with this uh probably really really bad to say this but uh to you know you can never uh slant any typography like in texts and stuff you always have to use the real italics and that is something since a few years I really don't care I use if it if there's no other way I would even do that and slant in InDesign a few degrees and it's done and it looks so much better than before but before we didn't have an application for layouts and stuff that could do that properly in that way so I think that's all yeah all of this is evolving a little bit rules that I never break I don't know no I can't like some yeah sometimes things are very you know wide spaced narrow spaced no I don't think there are really rules but I think I think more generally about like if I want to people to read texts I make them readable for them you know it's like that's yeah which is ultimately the point right I don't want to be an asshole you know who presents them those like or not not to the people it's also to the the people who wrote the texts maybe well that's the editorial conundrum right you are you are responsible for the the writer the subjects but also the editor but also the photographer but also the illustrator and you're trying to do your best by all of those people yeah and then of course you want to do cool designer maybe that's not always so so easy to combine um but uh yeah i i think like when when when something gets so over designed in terms of reading a body text like an essay or something and then yeah people can't like they they get too tired after a few lines then i think like then then that's just a pity for for what's written there and the words and the message yeah i mean that's kind of it's such a boring thing to say but it's like i yeah i i do think about this sometimes me too i think about it a lot because i love these very expressive layouts uh that uh that i just look freaky and and over the top i mean it's really great but yeah it's uh yeah there if there's something to say then better get it through i think okay so the other part of your design thinkers talk description which i know you're probably still working on the shape of that talk but yeah so we like there won't be any spoilers here it's fine we're working through it in real in real time but you also mentioned this idea of accents in design and I kind of want to unpack that idea a little bit like are you talking about cultural accents are you talking about like actual visual accents the typographic ones sort of when you think about this idea of accent and design what are you thinking about when I think about accents in design I think this is very much that is very, very personal and very individual.

21:10So it's not a general cultural accent, though, of course, everybody brings their own accent and it's never disconnected from our experience that each one of us has made, not only as a designer, but also in general in life and where we are from, where we grew up, how our families and our culture and then also our visual culture around us shaped us. And I think this is, this goes, and education, of course, and design education, all of this goes into it. And yeah, and then I think this accent is, it is something for me, I mean, especially, you know, like, for instance, now speaking in English, and it's not my mother tongue.

21:53and that is also something that when I grew up I'm from um from East Germany or I grew up in East Germany so there are a few accents that we would consider you know after the wall came down it was always a little bit like oh my god yeah do you hear immediately that that person from the East and people wanted to get rid of that you know like especially people who maybe were I don't know trying to travel the world and uh being not recognized as from there or also within Germany And I think there was a long time, also like when we spoke about neutrality or neutral typefaces, this appearing neutral and appearing like clean of everything.

22:31And the same with accents is that, yeah, of course, I also always hope to not sound too this or that. But I think it's, yeah, I'm a little bit like turning away from that. I think this accent and design is really important. And I think it becomes more important now as well. So you're thinking about it as like the totality of your experience, be that upbringing. Yeah, but it's also a way of designing. And ultimately, yeah, you could even call it style, you know, at the end. But it is a very unique and individual one. And I think that is what this is about for me. The idea of even calling it accent versus calling it style is so fascinating, too, though, because it style to me, like having a specific style in some way sort of leans towards this idea of mimicking something that has existed or developing something that you do over and over again, where the idea of accent speaks more to the influences, the things that have influenced you to design the way you design.

23:37Exactly. There's way more in it or accent is more layered. There are time layers and there are cultural layers and, yeah, relations to others. And like, there's so much more in it. Yeah. And there's so many reasons for why we design how we design. I mean, this is not because it isn't necessarily anymore because we learned how to do things at some point in school. That is not usually how we design. it's like this all also the years that followed after but also years that happened like like things that happened before that i think that's i think we get never really rid of our history and of our upbringing no the same way typefaces don't yeah yeah and uh and i think this is something yeah it can maybe maybe it means things get old as well at some point and others you know won't but um but it is it is how it is and it makes us who we are i think and um and yeah for me design is something that became way more personal in style when i look at designers that i find interesting or more in general like what sticks and what where people also become maybe successful designers i think they're usually very expressive and they have found their own way of doing things and for every single person there is a very a bunch of reasons for why they are doing things how they how they are approaching design and uh yeah does that mean are you thinking about your own design style your own design accent often or does it just sort of come out organically before we wrap up just a quick note we are getting close to the end of the season and we'll be closing things out with a live podcast recording.

25:33I'll be sitting down with Dalit Shalom, Director of Product Design at the New York Times on Sunday, May 24th at BCIT in beautiful downtown Vancouver. You're all invited. So come join us in person as part of our live audience. And then stick around town for Design Thinkers Vancouver, which is happening May 26th and 27th at the Vancouver Playhouse. All of our guests from this season will be taking the stage. So if you found yourself inspired by these conversations, this is your chance to hear from those voices live and all at once. Tickets are available now and we'd really love to see you there.

26:09I think there's something organic about it for sure. Because like a lot of design is also just, it's like I often try to take this. something that comes out like immediately very almost unconscious ways of reacting to a new brief or task or commission or idea or just to to get to get this this reaction that is not really thought through or where i didn't consider this and that and the pros and cons just what what i meant because i think this is there's something um where there are there are things happening that uh like with every kind of reaction that we have to to um all kinds of things that are more unconscious like there there's usually some filters some radar some sensors uh that have uh gotten something right or wrong well that's this to find out but um but there's something that just happens automatically and i think that is at least it's always good to to to get it out and also do it this first thing that that happens and then one can still destroy or shape or kill it but and try something else but i think this is super important and in that sense i don't know it because and yeah considering this i wouldn't think so much about my own style because then yeah there's something that happens just because us, you know, because some little sensors around told me, do it like this.

27:47No, it's true, though. But I think that is all that influence, right? It is that accent sort of coming out. It's you responding, expressively responding to that prompt or that brief or that idea. And I think we all have that, right? Like you can see it when you first start to pull the pieces together and you need to get that out before you can start editing or thinking about whether or not that's actually appropriate like is that just how I would do it does it actually make sense for this project yeah and it's like I think there was a lot there's a lot of that maybe one thought you have to do things like this or that way and yeah I don't know I don't really want to talk about like following rules so much but but it's more like you can get stiff and and a little bit hesitating very quickly and i think uh because yeah maybe the idea isn't good enough or maybe um or you just don't think it's good enough right that quick judgments of your own ability yeah and and exactly you don't exactly yeah and uh yeah that's usually good to ignore at least for a moment well i think a little bit about like that's why so many designers especially mid mid-career start personal projects of some sort is to flex those muscles but what you're saying here is that you actually sort of build that into your process at the beginning of any project like okay yeah and it's like I mean I am it's not that I'm inconsiderate of yeah of topics or content or a theme of a client I mean it is there's something that they bring to the table and then I just put it into the washing machine in my brain and then and and then something comes comes out but even there I mean one could think a lot things through or you know like put things away already a bit too early and uh yeah and I think that maybe then this this cultural field helps a little bit because it's not that every project I would do is like do something crazy and and do it as freaky as uh as possible I mean, it's not like that necessarily.

29:57But yeah, there is probably in general some kind of acknowledgement of, yeah, let's see what you come up with kind of vibe with clients sometimes. And that is something where I noticed that sometimes clients, they start to or they want something from you as a person, you know, like that's they want something that maybe looks a little bit like you have done before. Or almost like you would think of an illustrator or, you know, an artist. It's not that they necessarily consider me as one, but it's, yeah, some want that a little bit of personal touch in it and in the design. And yeah, but it's always a mixed bag because some clients are like that.

30:46And for others, especially for bigger institutions, you have to be more considering a lot of different aspects. But in some cases, it's really kind of a free, at least in the beginning, there are no barriers necessarily put in the beginning from me or the clients. I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the sort of other layer of your design accent, which is your role as creative director and co-editor of FUCT, a contemporary drawing magazine. Am I saying that correctly? How do you say it? FUCT, yeah. But I wanted to ask if sort of working on your own publication in that way, does it change the way you approach your practice or the way you think about typography?

31:35Because I think you can often take a lot more risks in an editorial project, especially one that is sort of driven by a small team that you're a part of. Yeah, I mean, the magazine in terms of typography, in general, the whole magazine is something that, yeah, there is, everything is in our hands. There is really no one requesting anything or any kind of boundaries to do anything or not do anything. I mean, it's really just what we want with the magazine, what we did or do with the magazine. and I mean we have some constraints by now that maybe have to do with shipping but other than that yeah size number of pages yeah exactly um no but other than that um I mean I started out with the magazine um I came on board to design it so Bjorn my partner he my partner in life he has basically started the magazine like when he was still in art school so it's a it's a very old project actually I mean, we just do one issue per year and we are at issue 23 now.

32:45So it's been around for a while. And when I came on, this, I, yeah, it was quite, quite quickly that I decided I didn't want to have any drawings on the covers. And I wanted to use it for typography. But it was also because typography and drawing has definitely a relation, a quite strong relation, actually. because type is drawn and typefaces are drawn. And so there's just the element of the process and how it's created is very, very similar. And so that means also like words and drawing is very close for me. So that was a reason for going in that direction for a long time and to try to be a little bit experimental with the typography for the covers and also we have this cycle of publishing and annually but that also differentiates this magazine a little bit to other periodicals that would come out like twice or three or four times a year that have to really you know like defend their place in a newsstand where I don't know there are all these magazines where the title of the magazine has to be in the top one third part because otherwise it would be hidden you know and so it was always a publication that anyway had a little bit of a different place and not so much in these newsstands and these shops it was always a little bit more in art bookstores and I mean now there are a lot of magazine stores around so for independent magazines as well so So I'm really happy for that.

34:35And therefore, it could always look a little bit different. And in the beginning, we changed the format with each issue. And I mean, I still really like that idea, but it just makes your life so much harder. Well, but you do, while the format doesn't change, the covers have, like, they are extraordinarily different from one another and often so rooted in the theme. So I think about, you know, your current issue sound, which has this, these sort of clear varnish lines over top that if you run your fingernail over them, each strip makes a different sound. The lines are different distances. Yeah, like the motion makes a different, the motion, yeah, makes different sounds basically or different tone heights.

35:15Tone heights, yeah. Nature where you could sort of like pull the little leaves out. So each, each issue became its own little bouquet in some way. What was the one before that? Before nature, I think it was the unknown issue that we had and faces. Oh, right. Yeah. Faces was the first one we had when issues opened where you had so many different covers, each one with a different face and its own space for people to draw. And I remember there was a pencil smudge on the cover that we used to laugh. Customers would come in and touch it, like thinking that it was a smudge on the cover, but it was there intentionally.

35:49the the faces issue was something actually that we did just after the pandemic because it was we were we were so tired of all the masks and all the hidden faces and we wanted to do something very very simple with just about portraits and about human faces and that is also I mean the faces or or the human face is also something that in drawing is something so basic I mean that is something that kids would start immediately you know or like often like their first drawings would maybe start with the face or with little figures so so i think that yeah that was a reason for that so the there's also something that happened with the magazine over time for the first years we never had topics so we just just did a magazine a new issue about drawing contemporary drawing and we thought um we don't need a topic because it's anyway such a niche magazine like what should we really like uh make it even uh narrow with um with putting a topic over it or a theme but uh yeah and then when we started that at some point we we thought now we've seen so many drawings uh and so many we have had so many artists in the magazine already and then you start to see patterns where certain repeated themes appear that artists work with or about.

37:14And then it started to make sense to work with topics. And that is something that with these themed issues that focuses us also in a very different way, of course. I mean, it's something very banal because I mean, there are so many magazines around that have changed the topic for the whole issue with each publication or something. But for us, it was a big step because we just thought we didn't have to or it was not good for the magazine to do this. And then it turned out to be actually really cool. Yeah, so cool. And I mean, the way the covers have evolved over the years, it's, you know, it's such a treat for us to sort of see what the new theme is.

37:53You see the little JPEG online, but it is a whole different experience once you finally get to hold it and touch it and see what little trick you snuck in there. yeah and it's I mean it is hard to to keep up with these kind of if it becomes very um haptic or tactile yeah we'll see I mean I'm sure there's a lot more to do but uh but also like I want I usually want it to be very connected to this object of a book or the process of printing and the material of paper so to not go too far I mean you can do whatever of course you could make a magazine out of concrete or I don't know bubble foil or chewing gum I don't know but but it's like it should it should have to do something with this whole with with these materials also that are not only used in drawing but also used in the production of a book or a magazine to be something that's true kind of to the process well I find I find specific joy in the fact that like a magazine is sort of a living, breathing thing that you get to make it over and over and over again.

38:59There's something about that repetitive process that one lets you get to know the publication more intimately, the type system, the way the grid structure works, but also sort of forces you to stretch and to push things, each issue, to try and make it better than the last one. Yeah, of course, you always set this kind of new bar or you kind of can put a check on something that you have done and that you can't really do again so it's always a little bit nerve-wracking okay no more musical road lines uh on the cover now and no more cut cut out leaves that's done i think because we've been talking about typography i think it's such a fundamental skill for so many emerging designers i think it's a scary skill for a lot of emerging designers because there's like so much to absorb and understand and we've sort of been talking about how you absorb those things and feel your way through those things the more experience you gain.

39:53But I'm wondering if there's anything you think younger designers maybe misunderstand about type or the way to sort of think about type in projects right now. Is there something that you're sort of seeing over and over again that this era of designers maybe misunderstands? Or maybe something that a previous generation had better, like understood better, was getting right? I wouldn't even I wouldn't put it like that almost the opposite I mean like I feel like it got way more free now and I really enjoy that and I enjoy that maybe it's because they don't know better but I see a lot of fun typography where either they do something to it that is a bit weird and a bit off and or they mix these crazy different looking typefaces or whatever like whatever is on right now and i have to say i kind of like these uh weird little trends that come up and of course there are people always you know repeating stuff and i don't know it's also a way of training and whatever but um but i feel that designers earlier when i say earlier i mean yeah probably like 20 years ago or so like they 15 20 years ago they were way more timid and way more believing in those rules and of course there might be some some of these necessary things to consider yeah fall behind a little bit uh sometimes but in terms of expression i i am not here to complain about the young designers i have to say like i feel i have the feeling they they have lost a little bit of that fear that i for instance had when i was starting out before we let you go we're opening the mailbag.

41:42This is the segment where we ask for questions over Instagram. You can follow along at RGD Canada and truly anything goes. Specific questions, big picture questions, super, super niche questions. Let's see what came in. So, okay. This one's interesting. This one's from Priya. When you're working with cultural institutions, how do you push for more experimental typography without losing their trust? That is a really good one. I mean, sometimes I just serve on something that they are maybe offering already when I already in a briefing situation or when they come to me. Sometimes I can sense that they want something more experimental, you know, or they are more open to something.

42:28or they but it's um what i usually do is i mean probably because i have worked with some some of these type of institutions i also get a sense of like when uh when an artwork is because that is yeah that's another topic like typography and art or and and an image of an artist because i think like in general these cultural institutions are quite open to to typography and to all kinds of interesting things happening to the typography but it is always a question if there is a museum and you have you know old art yeah especially certain certain um very um art archival institutions that are really where it is really about like older art and um collections and sometimes there is a lot of, I don't know, there's a feeling of a lot of respect to be had for the artworks.

43:32And sometimes you even aren't allowed to do something, but they still want to show it. And then it can be really hard to combine those. And then you have to be a little bit more moderate. So usually I try to find out quite quickly, like in what direction something could go. And if I sense that very early on, this is not the right way for them or for this artist or for this exhibition, for instance, then I wouldn't push too far either because I also know that stuff can destroy each other, even though, I mean, I don't think that a strong typography or crazy typography necessarily destroys something, but it can, of course, take a lot of attention and that balance has to be found.

44:18I think that's important. So it's about sort of presenting options to get a feel for the client's openness potentially? Yeah, not necessarily. I think that might also be something that is, yeah, maybe even in a first conversation, this is something one can feel at least already. Not necessarily that I present like a crazy one and then a calm one. Not like this. It's like usually that kind of feeling for a project would be formed already before. From Ben, if you had to design with only one typeface for the rest of your life, what would you choose? I would not be a designer anymore. That's it, you quit.