Nu Goteh on Designing With Community

20:43DesignThinkers Podcast Host:How much are you investing in this? Okay, we launched this thing. Is there a long-term maintenance plan? And by maintenance, not just physical maintenance, but is there a long-term programming partnership plan? Like who can we bring in as partners and stewards to continue this? So one of the things that I saw recently in LA, there was All Star Weekend that happened and a bunch of brands did a bunch of big activations. And some of those activations meant that they were leaving physical structures behind and the physical structures are meant to be left for the community. But then the question that is asked is, okay, well, then who's going to maintain that?

21:29DesignThinkers Podcast Host:How is this going to be staffed? Are y 'all going to take the same amount of budget you took for All-Star Weekend to build this thing and then commit that year over year so that this space can function at the fidelity that you had it? Or is it just going to be handed over to someone and then the someone needs to figure out how to fundraise for it? And so in that, like, it's tough because the initial moment of excitement for launch is one thing. But really, it kind of takes time to see if the same amount of investment is going to continue to be carried over. and oftentimes a lot of these initiatives are projects of a person and if that person leaves then with them the excitement for said project goes away.

22:23Nu Goteh:Is there anything you've learned that that folks can do in this space when like there isn't a ton of budget? Like I think there are so many sort of small agencies studios that want to be doing so much more of this like community-driven people-driven design work?

22:37DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of work, and I mean, that was at the biggest scale. I think at the more manageable, smaller scale is, do you have space, right? Do you have space? Do you have space that you can program? And even when you think about programming is, hey, once a quarter, could you host a workshop on a Sunday afternoon that you know this specific community that may not get a chance or an opportunity to touch and see or feel this or play in this way can play? Is that an opportunity that you have, right? Because I don't think community engagement has to be at the largest scale all the time.

23:22DesignThinkers Podcast Host:It is like what's within your means that is possible for you. Space is one thing. Knowledge and sharing that knowledge is another thing. Is there an opportunity, which sometimes it shows up like volunteering, but like, how do you do volunteering in a way that is filling something that sits within your core competency that may not already exist, right? So even like thinking about print, right? Like print isn't something that's an easy thing to do, an easy thing to exercise, but what does it look like to have a zine workshop right with and then just be hyper specific and intentional about who you want to like have outreach to you know the design heads are going to show up you know the design students are going to show up how do you take it a step further than that is there other community groups that you can partner with yeah and then i think even thinking about like what

24:22Nu Goteh:those communities needs are in that moment like instead of doing something that other folks are doing? Is there a gap you can fill? Can you tier your tickets? Can it be pay what you can? There's so many ways to think about what you need in order to run the workshop and what the community itself wants and needs. Thanks for this print transition so we can talk about Deem, which talking about Deem Journal is going to be very much for me as an intense advocate for print media. But talk to me about starting Deem and why you chose print as a medium. Lives are busy and finding time for continuing education and professional development isn't easy, but that's exactly why earning your RGD certification stands out.

25:06Nu Goteh:If you're a designer with at least seven years of combined work experience and education, you're eligible to apply for the registered graphic designer or RGD designation. The RGD designation signals quality, competence, and accountability to clients, the industry, and government. Certified RGDs have demonstrated expertise not only in design, but also in strategy, business, accessibility, research, and ethics. Differentiate yourself from other designers and studios and join more than 800 certified RGDs across Canada and around the world who are committed to design excellence. Learn more at rgd.ca slash certification.

25:45DesignThinkers Podcast Host:So DEAM was started as a partnership between myself, Alice Granwasuka, and Marquis Stilwell. And our intentions, and it relates to a previous question you asked about thinking about design being political, and sitting and seeing that it was very easy to have design-based conversations that were only oriented towards the output of design, of said design things. And what we saw was that if you're only looking at design through the lens of the outputs that you're creating, that's where you're able to skirt around the equity, labor, dignity issues that sit within design. And so what we we started to think about is what happens when you move design or you orient design away from output and towards something else.

26:43DesignThinkers Podcast Host:And something else was for us was dignity, right? How is dignity a through line and how is design in service of dignity? And so with that, when we started to think through how we wanted to codify design, one of the things that really stood out was this idea of design being judged by fidelity. How finished, bold, polished is said thing, the level of detail that goes into it. And so what we saw is that fidelity in its truest sense is somebody's relationship to the resources needed to achieve that level of fidelity. It becomes It's like self-perpetuating wheel. And resources, class, race, gender, socioeconomic connections, all those things aren't evenly distributed.

27:37DesignThinkers Podcast Host:And so once you start removing resources, it really starts to limit your ability to achieve that level of fidelity. And that level of fidelity is what, to us, signals design. And so in that, we realize, okay, well, that's not design that is resourcing things in order for them to create something that we all have been trained to think of as design. So if that's not design, then what is design? And when you ask me, is this process of creating conditions where value can be created amongst people, communities, and systems? And in that, one thing we also saw was that the idea of this process of design doesn't just sit squarely amongst designers.

28:31DesignThinkers Podcast Host:So many different people participate and facilitate design every day, but don't get a chance to see themselves in that way. And so the question then became, okay, well, how do we start to not only document, but also memorialize the work that people who may sit in and outside of design are doing to be able to further this idea of designing for dignity? And so print became a very important vehicle for that, because especially when you think about this idea of the canon, the notion of the canon and who gets included in the canon, who gets excluded from the canon, all those elements of canonizing work.

29:17DesignThinkers Podcast Host:one of the key things that we saw was that there is this tangibility, there is this print ability that the canon is able to metabolize, is able to take in and hold, and then it becomes part of that doctrine. So then for us, we're like, okay, well, what happens if we use elements of design in order to puncture and penetrate design to then insert the stories and narratives and the perspectives in design that we think are missing and print being a vehicle for that. But then also knowing that print demands your attention. Like it demands your attention and it also becomes this like live way of archiving or archiving in real time that then those things aren't as easy to erase.

30:13DesignThinkers Podcast Host:And I would say what's always interesting to me, and this isn't like something where it's like maniacally, we're like, ha ha ha, we figured it out. But every issue tends to be timely, but also timeless that you can revisit issues. And it doesn't really matter if it's a new issue or an old issue. The topics and the themes that we're hitting on have this through line that allows for us to continue to echo back to our main thesis, which is the designing for Dig Mewing.

30:51Nu Goteh:It's so interesting to hear you talking about all these other people that participate in the design process and how we often prioritize the output, the finished product. And I don't think there's any place in the genres of design, I don't think there's any place where that is more obvious, that collaboration of many people, than producing a printed magazine. The editing process, the relationship with the photographer, the subjects participating, the designer has to lay it all out and then go back to everybody to have that conversation. Is there stuff that sort of like editing, working on the journal has sort of added to your understanding of design?

31:28yeah that it's a fool's errand print is like are you calling me a fool it is a foolish endeavor

31:37DesignThinkers Podcast Host:but it is such a valuable endeavor because especially the process that we end up taking there's like a incubation editorial state where we're like okay like like let's figure this thing out and that would usually sit with like isabel and alice like figuring the the thing out and then in terms of coming back to everyone with like here's a lisa skeleton that we're like okay awesome now that can be taken into art direction and we can start figuring these things out so it becomes this volley of trust where there's moments where things are converging and then there's also moments where things are in parallel and that we through the process know that it will come together in a in a way that maybe didn't fall directly in our intentions but will still be beautiful and still communicate what we wanted to communicate.

32:45DesignThinkers Podcast Host:But it's a lot of trust.

32:47Nu Goteh:There's so many unknowns when you start, right? Like you have all these brilliant ideas for the stories and the things that might be included, and they may or may not turn out the way that you think they will. There's this amazing Josh Jones, who is a British editor and works on a whole whack of publications. He has this line that I quote all the time that is, that's magazines. Like every time something goes wrong, he's like, yep, that's magazines. There's sort of nothing you can do because you are documenting things in real time.

33:16DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah. And also Marquis often says this perfection is too late. If you're waiting for something to be perfect, it's like, it's, yeah, it's not going to be in. Even the design process itself, right? It's a process of iteration in which it is like the opposite of publishing because publishing becomes very finite where it's just like, boom, like this thing needs to be done. There it is. And there's so many stop gaps that we try to put in there to make sure that it comes across as perfect. But one thing I tell the team, like, yeah, there's been typos. And I'm like, man, out of the 500 ,000 words that are in this publication, not every single one is going to be perfect.

34:11DesignThinkers Podcast Host:So what do we need in order to get as close as possible? And what we found is it's time. Time is usually the thing that gets us closer to what we need.

34:28Nu Goteh:I think also there's a magic in magazine publishing where you do get to make another issue, right? Like you get another go, you get another kick at the can eventually. And I think there's something really beautiful about that. Like it is kind of an ever evolving product.

34:43DesignThinkers Podcast Host:A hundred percent.

34:44Nu Goteh:I wanted to ask you a little bit about the sort of Deem, the distribution piece of Deem. So there's like a couple of things here that I always find really interesting to think about. So one, like a lot of, because Deem's spending a lot of time thinking about design, ultimately design education, I think you challenge a lot of the ideas that institutions have. So does that impact the way you think about distribution at all?

35:06DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah. So one thing I would say is that DEEM initially, if you went in on the Wayback Machine and you went to our website, or if you even look at issue one, we were a biannual print publication. And now we are a tri-annual, meaning we will try to get an issue out annually.

35:27Nu Goteh:As opposed to three issues a year.

35:29DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah, we will try to get an issue out annually. And so in that, that definitely does affect our distribution and how distribution flows, because it's not like we're like, here's our spring issue. Here's our fall issue. We have all of the shops who are like lined up and we have our distribution partner. and it's just like flood the market. Like it doesn't really operate that way. And so for us, part of the things that we often think about are what are the independent spaces that we think would be of value to, not even, that would find deemed to be valuable.

36:14Nu Goteh:Yeah, or aligned. Aligned is maybe a better word.

36:17DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah, aligned. Yeah, yeah. Right. So then in there, there's like the independent spaces that we often get excited about. Then there are those institutions. So we do have a lot of conversations with schools that have libraries. And they're like, oh, yeah, we want to make sure we get every single issue of Deem. So then that becomes another vertical that we think about. But then often also another thing we found is agencies. A lot of agencies, whether they're small or large, often reach out to us and they're like, hey, we want to buy 25 issues of this, of your newest issue. And then that becomes another like vertical that we we think about as well.

37:10DesignThinkers Podcast Host:And then we have a distribution partner for the Europe and UK and Asia, but not one in the Americas. We just end up running that ourselves.

37:22Nu Goteh:It's just so interesting to sort of think about, right? Like when you are producing something that's a bit challenging, it makes you think maybe a little bit harder about where you want to show up.

37:31DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah. But I would say the main place that we end up getting most of our sales from is from our website.

37:40Nu Goteh:Yeah. direct nosy question do you have a theme for issue six yeah there is a theme for issue six

37:45DesignThinkers Podcast Host:the theme for issue six and it parallels the conversation that we're having is institutions okay inventing institutions and it is looking at if so i have a question for you right if i say institutions to you what's the first thing that comes to mind i think just because of the

38:08Nu Goteh:context of what we're talking about was schools but then I also think about things that just have like long histories as being an institution so for so our first issue was designing for dignity and which was amazing but like we overshot because we're like shit dignity is like such a big huge thing every magazine's first issue was always an overshoot always yeah yeah We're going to jam so much content in here.

38:40DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah. And so what we ended up realizing is that every issue that followed issue one was in conversation with issue one. It becomes this call and response and becomes a way of exploring this notion of dignity. So issue two being pedagogy for a new world. How is knowledge exchanged? How does knowledge equate to this idea of dignity? Issue three, envisioning equity. Where does equity sit within this notion of dignity? Issue four, sensing place, so placemaking and creating value within place. And then issue five being the name is escaping me, but it is about climate and climate responsiveness.

39:31Nu Goteh:It was climate realities and responses.

39:34DesignThinkers Podcast Host:See, that was close. Climate reality and responses. And so with issue six, one of the things that we started to think about was this idea of the canon and a lot of what we understand to be what it is are held within these institutions. institutions but that institutions can at times carry a lot of weight in the connotation of what they are how they're described who they're meant to serve but we love being subversive about that and we start to think about okay well what happens when you hold up this idea of formal institutions to informal institutions what could they learn from each other how do we take this notion of institution and put it in this liminal space that doesn't just have to be bound within history or schools or things that are resourced in perpetuity in order to create this understanding that this thing should exist because it's an institution, but then also start to uplift these moments of informal institutions that sit within communities that may not get a chance to even look at what they have as an institution to say, well, what can we learn from that as an institution?

41:04DesignThinkers Podcast Host:And how do we juxtapose those things together for us to come with new understanding of our current institutions and what we desire from future institutions?

41:14Nu Goteh:I'm so excited to read that. I think it'll be fascinating. I think what you're saying about the first issue, like being so big, is a pretty common magazines that choose a theme. The first issue has a tendency to be something that should just be their overarching mandate. And then over time, they sort of figure it out. You wouldn't be the first magazine publisher, editor, to tell me that the first issue's theme was way too broad, too big. Yeah. Okay. That's good to know. We don't have time for very many more questions, and I want to get to our audience questions for sure. So maybe we'll just go out.

41:51Nu Goteh:The last one I want to ask you is for our young designers, sort of emerging folks listening, who are already sort of thinking about power, how do you think they should sort of think about power and equity as they're sort of moving into the industry?

42:06DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Well, I think when we're thinking about power, power doesn't operate in a vacuum. And it's not a top down thing. And really what that means is, who do you share perspective and space with that you can collaborate with in order to help to build this base of power for yourself as you're coming in at an entry level? AKA like don't do it on your own. Like whether it's a peer or somebody who's a mentor, like partner with people in order to help expand your thinking and your capabilities.

42:47Nu Goteh:Before we let you go, we're opening the mailbag. This is the segment where we ask for questions over Instagram. You can follow along at RGD Canada and truly anything goes specific questions, big picture questions, super, super niche questions. Let's see what came in. Okay, our first question was submitted by Aisha. What do you do when a client wants the language of equity, but not the structural change?

43:14DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Ooh, we call that the Scooby-Doo moment of when you rip the mask off and it's like, man, it was Mr. Johnson this entire time and it wasn't a ghost. It's hard because the veneer of equity is something that has an appeal to it. And so earlier on, we tried to vet out those opportunities that seem to want something that's different from what they actually say. But to be 100 % honest with you, it's like dating somebody. the first date is great, right? Second date is great. It's not until you get in a couple of months, you realize like, oh, no, no, this person is kind of batshit crazy. And we find ourselves in that because the way how we approach the work on the studio side is we always want the work to have some sort of purpose to it.

44:21DesignThinkers Podcast Host:But then you start to realize that there's a misalignment between what they're saying is the purpose and what they're actually interested in. And we try to get to that as soon as possible and then use that as a space to see if we can remedy that with the client. It doesn't always work for us to call out the client and be like, oh, you're saying this, but this is what you're doing. And we have to also consider what's within our ability to be able to affect the change that we want to change. And I know this is going to be a bummer, but I'm going to be honest. Sometimes we don't have that ability.

45:04DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Sometimes we're locked into a contract and we need to hand over some deliverables. And so for me and my team, then we start to think to ourselves, okay, first call to action is how can we get as close as possible within what we're capable of doing to make sure that this is going to land in this way? And then the second thing is how can this be an education for us and also education for the client that if this project maybe isn't the project that is allowing for them to get to where they say they want to get to, maybe they're on their journey to there, like there's learnings that come out of this.

45:42Nu Goteh:Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I'm just really real. This one is submitted by Leah. Is community becoming a marketing buzzword? How do we know when it's real?

45:52DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah, community is a slippery slope because when I used to work for brands over a decade ago, community was definitely something that people said. The question that we often ask is, what do you mean by community? Right? And like, it's fairly simple. What do you

46:12Nu Goteh:I mean, what's community to you?

46:14DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah. And oftentimes you find that community is an audience or it's a customer. And so for us, we try to spend enough time educating clients in in real time. But there isn't like I said previously, there isn't necessarily safeguards in terms of like, does this person genuinely want community or like to what extent essentially to what extent because it there's a spectrum of community and it's like oh they may be only comfortable with this this amount of community okay that's that's too much that's too much community um and so it also becomes part of our job as the steward of community that we're working in between two different entities There is the client and the client's intentions and what the client wants to do and then how that reflects to the people that they want to do that with.

47:18DesignThinkers Podcast Host:And so there is a translation between the two of those entities. And so part of what doesn't get scoped into the SOW, even though it should, is that navigation and that dexterity between stewarding forward the intentions and desires on one end with the other end and trying to land somewhere that hopefully is new and is of value and purpose.

47:47Nu Goteh:Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Okay, this is a really good question to sort of go add on. So last question. This one is submitted by Daniel. What's something you used to believe strongly about design that you no longer believe?

47:59DesignThinkers Podcast Host:That design is going to save us. It's not. Design is not going to save us. It's not. I mean, and I say that because the way how I'm starting to think about things now is design and radical thinking and communal thinking creates these amazing prototypes, right, of new things that we want to put in. put out there in the world. And oftentimes those new things sit outside of the traditional paradigm that most people are operating with because design is foolish enough to say, hey, I want to move in a different direction that is what's currently existing. Because if that was the case, you would just be replicating what's currently existing designs.

48:55DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Like I want to create something new. But what I've seen, though, is that in the margins and what design is great as creating in the margins, to then be able to enact that, that then other people can participate in it at a scale, comes down to resources and it comes down to policy. And I'm starting to think more on How can designers with design-based thinking then start to infect and start to work with policy? Because in my mind, policy is we are putting the resources, the money, the capital, the laws behind this idea that then this idea gets codified and it gets supported over time. that it's not just a one and done thing.

49:46DesignThinkers Podcast Host:And so whereas design is great at creating those prototypes that really start to spark something new, now I feel like the next step is, okay, well, how do we bring this over into policy so that then this is going to be supported in perpetuity? One of the examples, this is a horrible example, but the amount of money that's being invested in ICE right now, where they're like$45 billion. That's like so much money that they're like, okay, cool. This thing is going to exist forever, right? It becomes institutionalized because it has the resources to become institutionalized. And so in that, thinking about how design can cross over that chasm to then say these new ideas that we have that are support people can also be a resource that it will operate in perpetuity because it has the resources too.

50:44Nu Goteh:Yeah. Yeah. Where we choose to put our resources makes a really big impact on what the future holds.

50:49DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Yeah.

50:49Nu Goteh:I knew this was so nice. I can't wait to see you in Vancouver to hear more about what you have to say on our Design Thinkers stage. Thanks for joining me.

50:57DesignThinkers Podcast Host:Awesome. Thank you.

50:59Nu Goteh:design thinkers is canada's largest annual graphic design conference find out more by visiting design thinkers.com design thinkers is produced by the association of registered graphic designers also known as the rgd through the rgd canadian designers exchange ideas educate and inspire set professional standards and build a strong supportive community dedicated to advocating for the value of design. To find out more, visit rgd.ca.