Rachel Gogel on Redefining a Creative Career

0:00From the Association of Registered Graphic Designers, this is the DesignThinkers Podcast. DesignThinkers is Canada's largest graphic design conference. Since the year 2000, the RDD has been bringing together visionaries from a range of disciplines to explore creativity and the design process. Join our host and RDD president, Nicola Hamilton, as she sits down for casual and candid conversations with DesignThinkers speakers, both past and present. This week on the Design Thinkers podcast, I'm joined by Rachel Gojel. Rachel is an independent creative executive shaping the future of design at the intersection of brand, culture, and technology.

0:40After building multidisciplinary teams at places like GQ, The New York Times, Meta, and Godfrey Dadich, Rachel launched her own consultancy in 2020. Since then, she's worked with everyone from tech giants like Airbnb and Dropbox to smaller purpose-driven, often women-founded ventures. In this episode, we talk about what it means to lead creatively without being full-time. Rachel walks us through the rise of fractional leadership, how she designs her own career on her own terms, and why negotiating your worth is a skill every designer should learn. We explore the challenges of showing work that isn't always visual, and the importance of making space for queer and marginalized voices in this industry.

1:21Whether you're freelance curious, burnt out on traditional career paths, or just looking to redefine what success means to you, Rachel's story will leave you feeling empowered, clear-eyed, and ready to think a little differently. I want to sort of start it at the beginning. You started your career in publishing, working for some pretty recognizable titles, GQ, The New York Times, before a sort of leap into tech, a leap over to meta. And I want to talk about those early parts first, because I think that there's like such interesting context there. Sort of one of the things that I found most interesting learning about you when we first met and I saw you speak the first time was that you were at GQ, you were just 23 years old and you were leading a team of people, most of who were older than you.

2:11Yes, indeed. I inherited a team who had been there for a while working under a creative director who was there for also a long time. And I was given this really cool opportunity. But yes, I was young. I had just, I mean, honestly, barely started my career months before I was a junior designer at Travel and Leisure magazine, just starting my career. But the market was rough. in some ways similar to what maybe people are feeling right now, because it's quite volatile and unpredictable. There was a hiring freeze. I ended up interning for like actually in fashion at Diane von Furstenberg studio for a little bit.

2:57And then basically it just forced me to start freelancing really early on and developing those skills in just relationship building, you know, talking to people, the kind of outreach tactics, and even negotiation skills started early and just thinking about my worth and my value. And so GQ actually became a client of mine first. I was freelancing for them. I helped build a WordPress site for them through actually just like a contact at Condé Nast, who I interned for the summer before I graduated college. I was at Golf Digest and I stayed in touch with the people there and they ended up at GQ and they hired me to build this WordPress site, which was essentially like a website for this art department to share their work with potential advertisers.

3:53Like this is what we could do for you, you know, work with us. And so in helping them build this portfolio site essentially for their work, I got to know a lot of them. And so when their art director resigned and left, there was this open role. And just in talking with them, they kind of planted a seed with me. Like, are you interested? Meanwhile, GQ was like my dream at that time. And yeah, it worked out. I got promoted three times there. I left as design director and I learned a lot. There were like two publisher changes, definitely kind of learning how to build a team, build a culture, build a process, and then even just inherit the design sensibilities of that team, and then try and help up level and kind of push forward.

4:45And so a lot of what was happening within just like emerging technology at the time, which was like iPads became a thing, and then mobile became more important. So just to set the context, like that was what was happening and kind of disrupting print and then us kind of trying to figure out how to stay relevant. And I loved it. GQ was, I mean, yeah, it definitely was a turning point for my career. I think I want to sort of like jump back a little bit because you talked about a few sort of internships and that like being forced into freelance at the very, very beginning. And I think that's, it's really interesting for me to hear that, that like you were so sort of whether you were pushed into it or you chose, you were so entrepreneurial in the sort of beginning parts of your career.

5:30Do you think that that sort of like built that foundation for the kind of work you're doing now? For sure. I look back at that as a kind of a wonderful, like, what a privilege to be able to, you know, start kind of understanding how that side of things work. I definitely in the back of my mind wanted to one day be my own boss. I will say it looked different. Like my vision of that was like a physical studio with a team. And I had, you know, my own space, it has completely changed. And that was definitely sometime in the future. But it helped kind of knowing, you know, okay, I'm going to learn as much as I can from these different companies, whether I'm freelancing for them or working for them full time.

6:27And I, yeah, for a big portion of my career, I would say at least, I guess, a decade, I would be working full time at certain companies, but then figure out how to do things outside of my day job. And usually that was maybe one small freelance project, maybe pro bono, maybe something paid. It was definitely about, you know, building, share my portfolio, but also honestly, just meeting people and learning and growing different skill sets. And, you know, I had to figure out how to balance obviously my day job with some of these side projects. But even teaching started quite early for me. I started teaching at SVA in New York very early on.

7:13And then turns out like I loved it. And so then I was trying to figure out how to like fit speaking or sorry, teaching into my, you know, my, my, my calendar. Yeah, exactly. So this, the speaking stuff also, I would say, I don't know, like, I guess that was maybe quite organic. And for a long time, They weren't necessarily paid opportunities, but it was, you know, maybe speaking for different teams at companies or, you know, maybe kind of attending certain smaller scale conferences or events. And I think that kind of combination of like speaking early on, you know, getting exposed to teaching and then figuring out how much I loved it, the kind of freelancing on the side and then obviously having a day job really kind of I mean, also, I had a lot of energy.

8:07I was in my 20s. And so I will, you know, that was definitely a different time. And living in New York, which comes with its own energy. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know how I did it all because I mean, clearly somehow I was able to kind of fit everything in the way that I do it now is obviously executed differently. And I have more, I don't know, I guess like at the core of how I kind of designed my time or business now is I'm very much prioritizing my health and wellbeing and balance. And I would say back then, that was not it wasn't even on my radar. And I obviously took that for granted for a long time.

8:49But yeah, the freelance thing was, I do encourage people, especially when they're starting out in their career is to experiment and try different things and get exposed to different cultures. again whether you end up being part-time free you know full-time freelance consulting whatever um to me it's like just gaining experience and then figuring out what you like and don't like and um i don't know i i uh not everything has to be this like big paid opportunity either like you could also figure out what makes sense depending on your financial circumstance and what's important to you, especially if certain, you know, it's one thing if you're working for like a nonprofit where like the mission is really aligned with your values and you want to contribute your skills in some way and they don't have a budget.

9:44It's another thing if you're working with a big tech company. So, but yeah, I do encourage people to try freelancing for various reasons, whether you decide to then go full on independent and do that for your livelihood. I don't know if that's for everyone. And obviously, it depends on where you're at in your life and so many like circumstantial things. But doing it on the side or like a side gig with some freelance exposure, I do recommend, you know, most creatives try it and see if they like it. So yeah. Totally. Okay. So you're sort of like, you're super young. You've done a couple of sort of internships.

10:27You're freelancing. You end up at GQ. You sort of like ride that publishing turns to digital wave because like you were the right age with the right tech ability at that moment. And then you sort of, you jump. Maybe right place, right time, maybe. Yeah. Right skill set. I think there was definitely something about like newsrooms and magazines, like looking to the young people to be like, what's this internet thing? Like, how should we be showing up here? Totally. I think we've done the same thing on social media, right? And so you sort of ride that wave. You ride it to the New York Times. You help set up T-Brand.

11:02You make a pivot into tech. You've sort of made these big leaps in these in-house spaces. I know you're freelancing. You're teaching. You're speaking. You're writing. You're sort of doing all of these things on top of it. And it all sort of like culminates in you launching your own design business, right? Yeah. Um, I will say, you know, there was this moment when I realized that I had only had in-house experience and I wanted to try agency before doing my own thing. So there is this moment when I left Facebook wondering, you know, if I were to leave tech, do I need to leave California or can I find a tribe, like some, some space where actually I, you know, can try the agency thing.

11:48It's maybe someplace small because all of the companies I had worked for generally were like much bigger companies and I wanted to go somewhere small. And so luckily, I had heard about the studio called Godfrey Dadich Partners. And a lot of the people who worked there were like former publishing people, including the founder and CEO, Scott Dadich. And so I got really excited. I didn't know anyone, though. I mean, there were definitely overlaps and relationships, but I didn't know anyone personally. So I just sent a cold email to like, you know, the hello at whatever career, you know, and then yeah.

12:28Okay, wait, because I don't, are you at, are you still at Meta when you send this email or have you left and you're like, I need agency experience before I do this on my own? I, I'm still at Meta at this point. And I'm like trying to think of the stepping stone that can lead me to, yeah, maybe doing my own thing. And to me, that was, oh, you know what I haven't tried? I haven't tried something small, and I have not tried agency. And I would love also the other thing on my mind was, I didn't really have a relationship with San Francisco. like my I lived here but I would basically commute to Silicon Valley every day in on a bus and I would be just like in Menlo Park on this campus and then I would basically just do this commute and I didn't I just didn't know San Francisco so part of it also was trying to give San Francisco like a real shot like do I do I want to live in the city you know is there a studio that somehow is located in the city.

13:31And so yeah, for a while, right before the pandemic hit, I was like commuting downtown to this actually this beautiful like Art Deco building. I mean, they've changed locations a few times now, but I was lucky to be there at that time. And yeah, I ended up working out, I crafted a role with them for like a creative director role and ended up being the kind of manager of the design team and working really closely with the head of creative and Scott. And it was really fun. But then the pandemic hit and it kind of changed a lot. I mean, for many people. So I honestly kind of barely had like in person time with them.

14:13I joined in April 2019. And then by March 2020, we all know what happened. And then I was there, yeah, through October 2020. And do you want the real story about why I left? Or do you want the story that I usually tell? No, give us the real story. Give us the tea. Okay. So I'll do it like in a short way. But basically, throughout the summer of 2020, I started talking with someone at Netflix. And if you can remember, like, Netflix at that time was booming. Everyone was in lockdown. And And long story short, I crafted a role with Netflix that was going to really change my path. And I was really torn.

14:58And had you made this connection with Netflix because of Abstract? No, actually, unrelated. Somehow they found me on LinkedIn and we just started chatting. to be fair I was not unhappy at Godfrey Dadage and I was not like actively looking to leave um so I will just like say that uh publicly but I you know it was intense it was long hours and we were really trying to avoid layoffs as much as possible so it was definitely an intense time that being said the backdrop of that year for me personally was that I also was I had some health issues start unraveling unrelated to COVID. But it kind of added to obviously my entire being.

15:48And so that's kind of the like the backdrop. There was a lot going on. Yeah, there was so much going on. Exactly. And so long story short, Netflix role happens, I end up interviewing. I'm intrigued by this role, honestly, mainly because it was more on like shaping culture at the company. It was internal facing like storytelling. And ironically, the title was like head of content, which is kind of random for me. But the way that the job was described to me was that I could shape kind of like extract stories from employees at Netflix, which was a very distributed and continues to be a distributed workforce.

16:32And then basically, I mean, they sit on like a treasure trove of stories just from the content that they have on their platform, but somehow essentially like develop more kind of employee facing like stories to shape the culture at the company. And I was so intrigued by that. I think it was, it could have been this really cool kind of organic, I don't know, weird tangent on the type of work that I love doing, you know? Yeah, you've been managing teams and cultivating internal culture for so long that being able to like platform those stories makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So I, I mean, we know each other.

17:14Like I, I was geeking out. I like really was hoping, you know, this could be this like really interesting next step. And again, in the back of my mind is still the like, you know, should I start my own thing? Or should I go to another place and gain more experience and kind of always having these back and forth dialogues. Um, and anyway, uh, clearly I didn't go. Uh, but the, the, so the real story is that my would have been boss got let go. And, uh, this was like two days before my last day at GDP. And I got an email from her saying, um, you know, I got let go, but don't worry. Like you're fine.

17:57I'm really bummed. I won't be able to work with you. Cause you know, we had been talking for months and she was kind of the vision. behind the role. So obviously, I got scared that with her departure, that would impact what the role was. And I was right. Essentially, yeah, HR kind of changed what the role was, they like moved me under someone else, I didn't have a team anymore, like basically, the whole role changed. And they pointed fingers to the person that left, you know, around like, well, actually, we don't even need this role. And yeah, so essentially, so ironically, I had negotiated my salary and was literally about to start, they were going to send me my laptop.

18:38And so legally, I was an employee of Netflix. So I negotiated a severance. And then they basically like the fun silver lining is that they gave me seed money, essentially, to like start my own thing finally. So I turned a pretty shitty situation into like something that worked out for me. Well, I think I think this is like a good opportunity before we like turn our attention to what you're doing now, but a good opportunity to sort of talk about the negotiating, that like ability to sort of talk about money, to think about money, even to like talk your way into a role, like to help shape a role.

19:13I think it's something that we don't talk a ton about. Like often the jobs that we're perfect for don't exist in the places that want to hire us. And you've done that a couple of times now and sort of continue to do that. Yeah. I, you know, I think it's probably a mix of that kind of like whatever relationship you're trying to foster and then, you know, having the confidence to try and shape a role and also like a level of self-awareness, like what you feel like you could be good at and somehow have that mirrored in, you know, whatever job description that maybe you could either co-write. or influence or, you know, support.

19:58And yeah, you're right. Actually, for a while now, probably since Godfrey Dadditch, like the roles that I've taken on, either don't have a job description, or if they do, like, I'm somehow co authoring, or, you know, kind of influencing in some in some way. And I think, you know, for those who are listening, it's something to remember is that you do have the power to, to do that. I think it just starts with asking, like you really never know until you ask. And there may be kind of some back and forth. And there may be some compromise, but to not even ask is like, that's the first step is like, you know, if you're feeling like the role, you know, could move in some other direction that could, I don't know, I guess, make you feel like it feels true to like who you are and what you may offer.

20:53Like it, yeah, it starts with asking. The other thing is to remember that there's a lot on the table when it comes to negotiation. Like you could negotiate the title, you could negotiate the level, you could negotiate like, you know, the, the having direct reports, how many or not, or like who your, your manager is, um, like beyond money, I guess, like there's just so much that you could kind of question or poke holes at. And I think that's the thing that a lot of people forget is that there's actually a lot that you can negotiate in those discussions in those early phases and to not wait until the very end to raise your hand and say something like you could kind of, you know, it should be a mutually beneficial business transaction.

21:42Like at the end of the day, it's a... Or discussion even, right? Totally. It's a conversation. And it's not one sided. And I think that sometimes people feel and I understand this, there's this power dynamic, because, you know, obviously, the employer is kind of interviewing you and, and kind of figuring out if you're the right fit. And there may be other people that they're considering. And so I understand not wanting to risk not being considered. So there's definitely a, you know, tact around how to go about it. But yeah, it should feel like a discussion, it should feel like a mutually respectful, you know, kind of back and forth, and that it starts really, it can start really early in the process.

22:35Because otherwise, it's a waste of everyone's time. Also, if there's like any surprises at the end. And yeah, there's so much around negotiation. I hope more people gain the confidence to do that. I will say based on the market right now, at least in the US, there's a lot of fear around negotiation, just because of the current administration, the market, the economy. So it's interesting to just kind of like watch trends because around the time that I went out on my own, a lot more people were quitting and kind of just deciding, you know, I mean, the pandemic was also the backdrop. And so I think more people were conscious of their time on this earth, you know.

23:17So but yeah, negotiation is something I talk about a lot. And I would love to talk more about at the conference, if it makes sense. Absolutely. I mean, I think also talking about money has been sort of a big part of your work over the last little bit. And like I know I've leaned on you once or twice for help with the sort of money thing or figuring out an estimate. Was there like a moment in your career where you started taking the sort of money or negotiation piece more seriously? Hmm. I love this question. Or have you just always been good at it? Like, is this just something you've always been confident enough to talk about, comfortable enough to talk about?

23:58This podcast is made possible with the support of the Association of Registered Graphic Designers. Through RGD, Canadian designers exchange ideas, educate and inspire, set professional standards, and build a strong, supportive community dedicated to advocating for the value of design. The RGD is Canada's largest professional association for graphic designers. The association's membership of more than 4 ,000 people includes firm owners, freelancers, managers, in-house designers, educators, and students. Members work in the design disciplines engaged in developing effective communications. That includes editorial design, motion, brand, packaging, environmental design, user experience, information design, and so much more.

24:43The RGD runs numerous industry events and initiatives, including Design Thinkers, Canada's largest annual conference for designers. Creative earners, Canada's comprehensive salary report for creatives, and awards programs for branding, design educators, emerging designers, in-house design, and students. But you don't need to be Canadian to become a member. Find out more at rgd.ca slash membership and join us in our mission to build a graphic design profession that is broadly valued for its contributions to life, commerce, and society. I don't know. I guess I don't know where or I don't know if there was like a moment.

25:23As you as you pointed out at the beginning of this conversation, I was quite young entering the industry and I also was very self-aware of my age and kind of my my skill sets and my value. And I was always interested in kind of the market, you know, like kind of doing the research and kind of gathering data and talking to people if they were open about sharing what they were making in order to feel like I, you know, earned my place just like anyone else. But there was this, oh, and also just feeling like I was like a woman leader. Like that also was something I was very aware of. And so. At a men's publication?

26:10Yes. Although I will say in marketing, there's usually a lot of women who work in marketing. But that being said, I think between, yeah, my kind of my gender, my age, and like my place in these spaces, I think I was trying to, or I was like conscious of like being paid what I felt like, you know, what I, um, yeah, my worth. And, and so I think I just got interested really early on around, okay, well maybe I shouldn't be as conscious about my age. Like I'm, I have this role and I'm leading this team and I should be making X. And so it always became this, these conversations with whether it was my publisher or the, you know, my manager, even at the New York times.

27:02And I remember, you know, basically my rule of thumb was like, always negotiate. The worst that they can say is no back it up with data. And I always would come with like a spreadsheet or some written something to be able to make my case and kind of understand if I were to propose a number that it wasn't so over the top that I would sound like I don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah. Bring some salary data from somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm trying to think if there was like a moment. I will say I think I had extra motivation to want to like fight for what I was worth because I was a woman and because I was my age and I did not want to, I did not want to like either be put in a box or start at a, like create a precedent for myself because I was always very conscious of, you know, well, if I'm, if I'm going to make a certain amount, like, what am I saying about, like, I wanted to lead by example, I guess.

28:10And, um, but I don't, it's funny. I don't know if there was a moment, but there was definitely pushback. I think through those early days, there was this one moment, anecdotally, when I was freelancing for GQ before taking that role full time, when they asked me to build that WordPress website, and I proposed to do it for$900. I know. And I learned through that experience because the woman who was working at GQ, who was helping with the kind of budget, basically called me and said, Rachel, like, this is not my money. This is GQ's money. This is what you should charge. like you know and I think I recently looked back in my emails to figure out like what it came down to and I think what she encouraged me to do was to have like a thousand dollars upon signature of contract and then essentially charge hourly because it was so loose and they were kind of sending me random files that to do a project fee like wasn't going to benefit anyone and that I should basically charge hourly which I think at the time was like 60 an hour which you know again if you think of that moment in time was actually totally fair.

29:30And she helped me. I mean, she really, I think that one phone call actually could have been that moment of, Hey, don't undervalue what you're doing. And, and then forevermore, like after that, I would always kind of, you know, raise my rate a little bit more every time I got another freelance job. And then it just kind of, yeah, maybe that was a turning point. Yeah. It's funny. I have a similar story where like one of my first freelance gigs out of school was for a professor of mine. And I remember he emailed him and was like, hey, what's your hourly rate? We need some help with some stuff. And I freaked out.

30:08I asked all my pals and everyone was getting paid like peanuts. I don't remember the actual numbers. And I remember I wrote him and I was like, hey, like I think my hourly rate is this. And he wrote back and said, you're worth more. We'll be paying you this much an hour. And that was like this moment where I was like, Oh, okay, like by default, I undervalue myself. Well, I think so I love that between the person who emailed you back, and then on my end, the woman who decided to call me, like all you need are those kind of advocates and those people who, who just don't let, you know, there's plenty of people out there who would be happy to pay the minimum for your services.

30:46Um, and you know, either because they don't understand what it's worth or they're willing or they're cheap. Um, you know, but all you need are those people who say, you know, actually this is what I think, you know, this, this is worth. Um, and then something clicks for you. And then, yeah, like, I guess since then, and that was in my early twenties, is, you know, every job I would negotiate, my like compensation package. I think things were very different when I moved into tech, because that just, I think, opened up so much more on the table when it comes to what can be negotiated. I think that was very different from my publishing days.