Professor Brian Cox, cider-steamed Dover sole & clams and a Saint-Aubin Premier Cru

0:00Turn up the heat this Valentine's Day with a meal that brings a little steam to the table. Impress your loved one with some succulently sweet and slightly nutty tender stem broccoli, giving you that fine dining feeling without the faff. Simply boil, steam or grill your tender stem in just a few minutes and let this versatile veg take center stage on your Valentine's plate. This is Valentine's cooking, but better with tender stem broccoli. Add a pack to your weekly Waitrose shop, subject to availability. Dish from Waitrose is a cold glass production. This podcast may contain some strong language and adult themes.

0:39Hello, welcome to Dish from Waitrose. I'm Nick Grimshaw. And I'm Angela Hartnett. That's right. That's right. How are you, Ange? I'm good, thank you. How are you? I'm good. I'm all right. I feel a bit snoozy, if I'm honest. Snoozy? You're trying to have a little nap. You do start early, what are you? 5am up? Yeah. Do you do a nap ever? Used to, don't anymore. Do you think it's good for you or bad for you? I think it's good for you. Yeah? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. But not a long one. You don't need a two hour, you need a power nap. Yeah, that power nap, like 10 minutes? Yeah, 10 minutes, maximum half an hour.

1:06Do you ever do one before service? No, because then you sort of feel, afternoon, I've been known to do it in the afternoon, go home and have a power nap. Oh, yeah. Hey, Professor Brian Cox. I know, very excited. I know, our first professor. Our first professor. Yes. Yes. Have you ever met him? No, never. Have you? I have, I've met him a few times. Well, you've met everyone, haven't you? He's been on the radio a few times and I've always had a really great time. He's from Oldham, no? He's from Oldham, yeah. Yeah. It's a very brainy town. Very brainy town. Fresh Brankox. Nick Grimshaw. Yeah. Yeah.

1:39So, yeah, he's going to be here soon. And, of course, we know him as someone that speaks about, you know, space and time and science. Before we get an expert in, what are your thoughts on space? Would you travel? I think, yeah, I'd love to know if there's other planets with other people on. You know. Do you think there is? I don't know. I honestly don't I mean how do any of us know yeah and there are other planets going oh there are other planets you know how do we know you know and there are other people doing a podcast like us in another universe oh my god imagine an alien alien heartlet over there no it's fascinating it's the unknown isn't it that's it I love the way I was the alien you get away with that it's just the A word yeah yeah oh lord which planet would you most like to go to Jupiter.

2:30Why? Don't know. I mean, I've never sort of analysed it more. It's just the one I thought about. It's a nice sounding name, Jupiter. It's a nice name. What about Uranus? Boom, boom. Here we go. Trust you to lower it down. You don't pretend you're not trying to be funny. You're based humour, Grimshaw. It's all you're about. It's not. Right, moving on. I've got to challenge you I've got to challenge you you have to mention Uranus to Brian no I'm not doing that and no one can laugh no I'm not doing it go on no you can mention it and see if it's pre-dome go on no go on please no I wonder how that goes down with him because he's probably like oh my god how many times have people said it exactly yeah I hate that I find it funny why is it called that

3:29Call him something else. Call him something else. Let's tell him. He can change it. Call him something else. He can change it. He was saying he thinks we'll be, Mars will be soon. Not maybe moving there. Not opening a waitrose or anything. But we might be using it to like mine. Oh. Do you know what I mean? For a sand. Yeah. More stuff. Brian, as well as talking about space and time, we'll also, we're going to talk, you know he's a big wine fan. Big wine fan. Big wine fan. Loves his burgundy, white burgundy. Yeah, he's stocked, apparently, his house with wine. Cellars everywhere, wine everywhere.

4:03And he's also going to be, he's also quite passionate about gin. Oh, yes. So he's coming to talk to us about gin as well today. But we always like to do a bit of a seasonal moment. And we thought because Brian is such a wine fan, we could do the seasonality of wine. And I guess you think about it seasonally in a broader sense, that in the winter you might have red wine, in the summer you might have white wine. In August exclusively, you might forgo water for rosé. But is there specific seasons of grapes? No, no, no. No, I think no. See you next week. Well, no, the season of now is, well, yeah, end of October.

4:42So sort of September, October is harvest time. So that's, so wine will all start to be put in barrels come October time. So the end of this month or even before everyone will be picking their grapes, you know, fermenting, adding their sugar, etc. So then, and then it's age. So there's the seasonality of years, really. There's young wine, older wine, and all the rest of it. But then you have Beaujolais Nouveau Day, which is where the wine from the region of France is made from the Gamay grape. And it's bottled very early. It's a young harvest, and they put it out for release. And then they just have these mad days where everyone just basically gets pissed up on Beaujolais Nouveau Day.

5:16Yeah, what is that about? It is slightly bottled. Vive la France. Vive la France, you know. So when is it this year? So it's the third Thursday of every November is the date. So it's the 20th this year. The 20th. Yeah. Okay. Well, I look forward to celebrating with you, Ange. Perfect. You come as my guest. At the end of the month, yeah. Apologies to Neil. All right. Well, we should get our guest in and remind you that we're going to do listener questions at the end. So let's get Brian in. We are ready to go on a journey that takes us through the great curiosities of life. We're going to talk about time, space, the universe, and most importantly, what wine goes nice with a Dover soul.

5:53A round of applause for our guest, Brian Cox, everybody. Welcome. Hi. Welcome. How are you? Very well, thank you. Thanks for coming to see us. No, it's a pleasure. I'm going to learn something. I like learning. You do. We know. I feel like we may learn more. Yes, I think that's probably true. Before you joined us, we gave our thoughts on space. Yeah, we're kind of up for it. Is that it? Yeah, we'd go. We'd go. We'd go, yeah. Yeah, big time. Is that the sum total of your thoughts? Yeah, we're all over. I'm up for it. We're a bit basic. Claire, who we used to work with, says, we always say to people, how's life?

6:30And I didn't notice that. I didn't notice that. Me neither. But everyone was saying, when I ask you, it feels like a deeper question. So how is life? Not for us all, but how is life for you right now, Brian? So you're expecting me to say I am part of an unbroken chain that began with the last universal common ancestor to which we are all related around 3.8 billion years ago. And actually, until around 600 or 700 million years ago, all there existed on the earth were single-celled organisms. So it's only in the last, I don't know, 700 million years or so that complex multicellular life has appeared on the earth.

7:06And I am part of that unbroken chain, which is a remarkable thing. That's what you think. That's exactly what I was asking. That's exactly what I was asking. That's the right answer. Thank you. Exactly what I was asking. Therefore, it's very good. I've been asking it for every week. Because it's remarkably unlikely. Yeah. Well, welcome, Brian. And thank you for coming. And we've done your gin and tonic because you recently went to Iceland. Is that right? Yeah. So gin, I've got... I mean, I've always liked a gin and tonic. But recently, I've noticed that they all taste different. Right, yeah. And yeah, in Iceland, they're really big on gin.

7:43There are loads of little distilleries around that make really interesting gins. Now, we've gone for this one. This is beautiful. Cambridge Dry Gin. Great bottle. Yeah. It's square. And we, yeah, we couldn't get the Icelandic gin flowing. So we gave Brian a choice and we got the guys at Waitrose sort of picked their favourites, essentially. So we've gone for this one, but it's great gin. It is beautiful. It's made in Cambridge, is it? Yeah, blended and made in Cambridge, yeah. What are your gin facts there, Ange? Well, gin facts are, so it has a traditional juniper combined with fresh basil, rosemary, rose petal, angelica sea, blackcurrant leaf and the effervescent citrus fruits of lemon verbena.

8:21Wow. And so, Brian, you are our first professor, as we were saying, on Dish. You're our second Brian Cox. Because Brian Cox, the actron, of course. And you guys must have crossed paths. When did you guys first... We have. I think the first time I met him, it was at some awards ceremony. I was giving an award. So I was on stage and he jumped on and ran on in front of me and kind of made a joke of it because he's funny, you know, and so I met him. And then we have mutual friends, actually, so we've been out for dinner as well. Oh, okay. And at that, it was funny because I walked into the restaurant and said, like, a table for Brian Cox and something there.

9:03And then he walked in and said a table for Brian Cox. And they just went, why? Because they thought they'd only got one table. Oh, no, there's two of them. And they were so not really good together, don't we? Are you the real Brian Cox or are you the real Brian? So since then we've interacted. But we were asked to do one of those pieces for a newspaper and they wanted to do Brian Cox meets Brian Cox. And he did say to me, it's absurd really, because it's just the same name. We've got nothing in common or anything. Why do people think it's interesting to put these two people together? Because it's just random.

9:39Well, I have a namesake in Nicholas Grimshaw, who's an architect. He passed recently, actually. He was 85, Nicholas Grimshaw. So I always grew up knowing his name because it was my name. And he was an architect. He did like the Eden Project. He did the Berlin Stock Exchange. Incredibly excellent architect and really, you know, truly so respected and celebrated. And when it was like 2013 or something, I got a letter to my house and then the letter was like, just nonsensical. I was like, this is nothing to do with me. Like, how's a letter about architecture to Nicholas Grimshaw arrived at my house?

10:19I was like, that's quite weird. Lived on the same street. And I went to his office and met everyone and showed me around. It's got that giant office on. It's in Clerkenwell. You might have seen it. It's like a huge building. It says Grimshaw up the side of it. So I went around and he showed me his office and how it all works and met everyone. And he was the most interesting guy, obviously. And then he was like, why don't you show me something from your world? what's going on in pop music this week because I was at Radio 1 at the time. And that day, Rihanna released Bitch Better Have My Money. So I said, well, the big thing at the moment is Rihanna has just released this really great, quite expletive pop song called Bitch Better Have My Money.

11:00And he was like, oh, I don't know her. And he watched the video, totally got her. Brilliant. He went, oh, I like her. Yeah, she's good. He was like, she's a bit punk. She says, she's quite real, isn't she? I said, she is quite real. And he went, yeah, I really like her. He just was like, yeah, get it. Any Angela Hartnett's out there? I don't think so. There must be, please. Come on, if you are an Angela Hartnett, please, let's find one. Brian, before we get into the chat, we always like to do our guests' food likes and dislikes. First up, you really enjoyed Deal for Soul, which we're going to be having today.

11:30One of my favourites. I'm so excited about this. You also love parsley from your garden. For reasons that don't need explaining, we weren't able to source the parsley from your garden. And you said, I love it when I'm filming somewhere like India and I can get a dal for breakfast. Yes. I find that there's, you know, because breakfast is a funny meal, isn't it? Because you think that the only thing you could possibly eat for breakfast is eggs or something like that. But of course, it's regional. But yeah, I think dal works tremendously well for breakfast. So I'd always go for it. I went with my mum at the beginning of the year and we went to Morocco.

12:06And on the breakfast, they did like a really great, It was actually, it was in Morocco, but it was called an Egyptian stew. So it was kind of dal-like, and it was like lentils, but it also had chickpeas in it and onions. And it was so good at breakfast. And they'd serve it with like fresh red onion and like fresh herbs and a bit of lemon. And you'd have that with an egg on. But I always think at breakfast, like when we went to Indonesia, we had the rice with fried egg on top. Yeah, I love that. Now, if you go to Tokyo, you have the Japanese breakfast. Yeah, I love Japanese breakfast. So whenever I go, I'm like you, whenever I go abroad, I'll always have whatever the local, you know.

12:40Even if you get Iceland and Aort, you have just the cheese, the salami. It's just, it seems more interesting. Yeah, exactly. I never have like some cheese and ham for breakfast. But when I'm on holiday, I eat that every day. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what it was, wasn't it? Continental breakfast. Yeah, continental breakfast. But on holiday, you're like, absolutely delicious. Yeah, exactly. It's weird that you sort of like, yeah. You like everything else. Enslaved to cereal forever, yeah. Indeed. We also asked for your guilty pleasures. and you told us that you're never guilty about pleasures.

13:08That's correct, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely correct. As I said, I'm part of an unbroken chain of life. Remarkable that I'm here at all. For dislikes, it was only one thing, but it was pitched perfectly and it was porridge tastes like cardboard. It does. I don't understand porridge. I don't get it. It's just, it does, it looks and tastes like cardboard. Oh. I don't know why people eat it. It does have to be disguised to be enjoyed. You have to put like a tablespoon of sugar on it. Yeah, brown sugar, honey. I quite like a bowl of porridge. Plain porridge. Well, no, I make it with half milk, half water.

13:47Yes. And then I put some chopped nuts on top and then honey on top. I don't like, so rice pudding is another thing I don't like. Oh, right. I don't like hot milk. I don't think milk should be hot. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't come out of the cow hot. Maybe he does, actually. Maybe he comes out of the body temperature. Body temperature, yeah. But yeah, I suppose. He never helps a cow. I love... Well, today's your day. So that's food likes and dislikes. We need to talk about wine because we know you're a big wine fan and we know that you hosted an episode of your podcast, The Infinite Monkey Cage, called Why Does Wine Taste So Good?

14:28It was really fascinating. and it was at the Australian Wine Research Institute. So they have an academic centre near Adelaide where they research wine. It's a whole thing from growing the grapes all the way through. One of the things we did was try different tastes. So they give you little sort of pieces of, so it's like a little paper with little sort of chemicals on it. And it's the different components of wine. And there was one of them that they gave everybody. And I went, like that. It was awful. It was like an old shoe that someone had set on fire or something. And nobody else reacted to it.

15:08And they said, yes, so it's one of those things. So they call them super tasters, the particular sort of compounds that you find in wine. And this one, there's something that happens sometimes. My favourite wine is white Burgundy. So I notice you've got a central band here, which is, I think, the best value in Burgundy, because it's not like Montrachet and so everybody knows it. So I love it. and there's something that occasionally happens which I taste as really sort of hazelnutty a real sort of nuttiness to them and I don't like it at all and it was associated with this chemical when they oxidise a bit apparently so I learnt why sometimes particularly with white burgundies I get this nut taste that other people don't get and I don't like it You have a home in Provence How is life in Provence as a fan of wine?

15:57Are you a big collector of wine? I mean, that region is famous for rosé. But actually, I'm not a big fan of rosé, to be honest. But they do make beautiful white wine. It's a grape called Roll. I think it's called Vermentino in Italy, but it's Roll in that region, which is a white grape that you don't see very much. And I like that a lot. It doesn't come out of that region. It really mainly stays in there. So I like that. I mean, Neil, my husband cycles a lot, and he worked in France for about six, seven years. And sometimes when we go over there, we'll pick certain routes because he'll have gone to that vineyard to taste that wine.

16:33So he's sort of, you know, you're the burgundy side of it. You know, he likes all the Pinot Rois and all the sort of red grapes and stuff like that. So it's fantastic, France, when you go down. I love it. It's worth going to trips and just trying all the different, you know, it's good. We visited one in Australia, it was Canberra. And the winemaker said that the wine and the grapes, It's just the medium through which the land and the season speaks to you. I thought that's beautiful, isn't it? I love things. That's what it is. So usually around this stage, Ange will, you know, finish making our meal.

17:09We'd have a chat. But I heard you wanted to find out about how to make a good Dover sole. I really do because I love fish. It was probably my go-to thing in a restaurant. I tend to choose a fish. And I'm really bad at cooking the fish. Okay. I think I panic and usually overcook it. so I'm paranoid about it, I think. Yeah. So that's my... You should go and help. You can come and help, Brian. Go and have an Angela Hartnett lesson. I will. Yeah, go and have a... Yeah, go on. You're the professor for now, Ange. Right, OK. So we're going to do pan-fried Dover's soul, but we're going to cook it with some clams, some samphire, as Brian likes parsley.

17:44We'll add a bit of parsley in there as well. And then cider as well. So we'll cook in the cider more than the butter. Just get your pan hot. A little bit of butter in there. So why would you go for the cider? What's the choice? Well, normally, if you do it Meunier style, which is butter and flour, and then you do the capers and the lemon, but we're going with the cider because we've got the clams, and normally with clams you'd probably put wine, but for a different sort of flavour profile, we're going to use cider. So it'll have slightly sweeter. Then season your Dover sole into there. Oh, and knock skin down first, the other way.

18:21No, you put it, because the Dover sole has a dark skin, but that's quite tough to eat. So I've peeled all that off. Oh. And that's basically the top of the fish and we're going to do the skin side after. So I'm just going to let that cook slightly in there like this. And it's not going to cook the whole way through because cooking it in this will keep it nice and moist and it will help cook with clams as well. So just like so. What temperature is really low, isn't it? Yeah, it's not too, because I don't want it too high because I don't want the butter to burn. and then if I feel it's getting a bit too dark, I'll just add a little bit more butter, but it's okay at the moment.

18:58So you're going to just flip the fish like so, so it's got a nice colour on that side. That immediately looks right. Yeah, and then we're going to put our clams in. And what did you do to the clams before, Ange? Well, I did ours before only because I can't do three at once now. But for this recipe, you put the clams in, then a little bit of cider. So you've already cooked those? No, these aren't cooked, these are raw. Oh, so you've not done anything to those clams, they're just going in now with the fish, with the cider? Yeah, they're just going in now, and they're going to basically cook in the cider with the butter, and we're going to put a cartouche on, which forms as a lid to keep all that steaming, and then that's going to sort of steam open the clams and cook with Dover sole at the same time.

19:42Ooh, ah. I always like using a cartouche because you can just lift it slightly and see what's going on. I mean, you can do that with a lid as well, but I quite like a cartouche. Yeah, I like saying cartouche. I like cartouche, you see. But then if you were doing it Meunier style, which is when you flour it, straighten your butter, you turn it over, then you add your capers, your parsley, your lemon juice, and then you'd cook it straight on the stove like that. But then that is when it's really buttery sauce. This is going to be a lot looser and less butter. So we're going to turn that heat up slightly like that.

20:12We've got our parsley ready, which I'm just going to finish chopping. We're going to add a little bit of samphire as well, just around the edges. Yeah, you don't need to cook that for long, do you? Quick. No, and I'm so old school that I do things like just the back of a spoon, and I just feel how the fish feels. I wouldn't do that if I had any knowledge or skill. Because I have. If you sort of feel that now, it feels like if you sort of press in the thick bit, like the thick, which is the middle part where the bone is, you can feel there's still pressure there, tension, and once it's cooked, it will go through quite easily.

20:47So there's still a few more minutes to cook. So now you see the clams are opening. A few more minutes, I think, while the clams open. And then the clams before, Ange, because I remember when we've had clams before, you do sort of make the kitchen a bit like a water feature for a bit. Do I? Because what happens with you? You've got to, like, rinse them for... So basically, you sort of rinse your clams about three or four times under cold running water. So I think that's going to just sit in there now for a few minutes. So you're just cleaning the shell, basically. Yeah, basically, you're cleaning the shells, any grit that's coming out of there, because you don't want any grit in the sauce.

21:20and then basically take them out, drain them, and then cook them hot. And you just do it under a running tap? Yeah, under a running tap, yeah, for about three or four minutes and just keep changing the water so they're nice and clean. So all I'm going to do now is finish that with a bit of parsley. I'm going to put lemon on the side and then I'm going to remove the fish onto your plate and then I'm just going to add some creme fraiche and just reduce the sauce. Right, so you can sit down now. You're going to take those to the table for me. That's it, everyone. Nothing as a free lunch. Yeah. So do you like to cook at home, Brian?

21:54Yeah, I do. But as I said, it's kind of limited things that I feel that I can cook well. Yeah. What would you do if Angela Hartner, HRH, was coming around? Dover's soul now. Get your spoon ready? I would ask, yeah, I'd take advice. I suppose it is experience, isn't it? I know you just say, well, it just, you feel it when it's ready, but... No, and listen, I've, as you say, it's years of experience. is I know I've put stuff up. I mean, the other day I sent a dish out with no fish on it, I totally forgot to put it on the plate. And they were like, the waiter came back and said, you're missing the fish, yeah.

22:29You know, you're cutting into a piece of meat and you'll go, I took that a bit longer and stuff like that. So that's why you're training people all the time. But yeah, it's experience. Food is here. Food is here. So it is cider steamed Dover sole with clams. Oh, delicious. Yeah. and serve with a side of new potatoes. Wow, this is our first Dover sole on dish. First Dover sole. It's a big guy, the Dover sole, isn't it? He's a meaty fish, yeah. He's a meaty guy, for sure. Yeah. Absolute perfection. See, is that because it's about the texture, isn't it, as well? Yeah, it's quite meaty. You can sort of pierce it to check it's cooked.

23:11I know that sounds terrible. Yeah, but if you get it wrong, you ruin it. You've ruined it, yeah. The other thing is I didn't know, when you said cider, I thought, well, that would be a really strong taste because you imagine cider's really strong. But it isn't. It's very delicate. No, it's quite delicate. And also because you put it into a hot pan, the alcohol steams off it. So you just get that sort of the minerally taste of the cider. And then you've got the creme fraiche that in a way dilutes it down, smooths it out so it doesn't feel too acidic. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. We shouldn't be scared of clams, should we?

23:40We should be scared of clams. Me and Brian were saying we are a bit scared of clams. No, you shouldn't be. When at home, when at home. No, I'm not scared of them when you've selected them. No, exactly. I'm scared of them when I've selected them. The key thing is when you cook them, don't cook them for too long because they get a bit rubbery. So as soon as they're open, pull them off the heat. And then any shells that are unopened, just get rid of them. That's the key. And even if when you rinse them in the water beforehand, if there's any that are chipped or slightly broken, don't bother cooking them, just get rid of them.

24:07They've got to be really closed before you cook them and then fully open once they're cooked. So that's quite easy to cook then. You just wait until you see that they're open. Yeah, once they start to open, then you, yeah, off the heat. Cheers. And with the wine as well. What's the wine pair? Well, I'm going to ask you to pronounce this, Mr. Burgundy. Oh, yeah, Mr. Burgundy. Come on. Saint-Ovain, Premier Cru. Domaine, Gerard Thomas. Fabulous. Domaine, Gerard Thomas. Domaine, Gerard Thomas. Gerard Thomas. That is delicious wine. That is. Oh, it's absolutely beautiful. and if you want to try this recipe with the clams as half done by Ange half done by Professor Brian Cox at waittroughs.com forward slash dish recipes you can get the wine pairing on there as well if you want to try it you've got a brand new show called Emergence which you're touring now as a sort of work in progress across the UK and then it kicks off properly in March is it?