Ep. 289 🍏CREATOR SECRETS! Straight from the Source!🍏

0:08Welcome to Do This Not That, the podcast for marketers. You'll walk away from each episode with actionable tips you can test immediately. You'll hear from the best minds in marketing who will share tactics, quick wins, and pitfalls to avoid. We'll also dig into life, pop culture, and the chaos that is our everyday. I'm Jay Schwetelson. Let's do this, not that.

0:40we are back for do this not that presented by marigold and i'm excited we got apple here well not all of apple that would be really wild to hit all of apple but no we have todd to check here he handles creator partnerships at apple and he is going to share with us really a lot of things i think is off the radar for people that they don't know creators can do in the apple ecosystem with their podcast with their content so i'm super excited to kind of dig into it all uh todd welcome to the show man thank you jay i appreciate being here um it's it's very full meta being on a podcast working a podcast but it's truly the space i love so stoked to be here and you have a really cool background too because you were at nbc universal and patreon and teachable and not like you've done like this stuff all over the place so i feel like you have this like awesome creator perspective.

1:27So maybe you could take us through what do you actually, what do you do at Apple? Yeah, great question. So the creative partnerships team at Apple really is the front facing team and boots on the ground for a lot of our top partners and a lot of high performing shows. But all that being said, we also work with shows on a granular level, like helping them build out their subscriptions and also giving them best practices. The biggest thing that we always are trying to focus on is growth and how we can better partner with shows in terms of making sure they're understanding Apple Podcasts the best, but also promoting their shows to their audience best.

2:02So really being liaisons between Apple Podcasts as a platform and the shows themselves and the creators. I love that. And I got to say, I'm embarrassed about something. I have a podcast. Here I am. I pretend like I know what I'm doing, but I actually don't. And you handle, one of the things that you kind of handle is subscriptions. And this idea that creators can be having people subscribe to things other than just their show. Can you talk a little bit about what these subscriptions are that are available? Yeah, of course. So think of it like a similar to a Patreon, right? If you have bonus episodes and bonus content, how can you monetize off of that and give your listeners a either a deeper experience or a varied experience?

2:43So through Apple Podcasts directly, you can offer subscriptions. Launched in 2021 into 2022. And what it really is, is just another way, as I mentioned before, around how Apple Podcasts can help support and grow the businesses of all of the podcasts and shows that use the platform. So it's a really great way to basically create a new revenue stream for the show itself, and then deeper that connection with the audience. When I was working over at Patreon, Yes, audience members love bonus content and ad-free content, but there's also this really big drive to support their favorite shows and keep those shows digital lights on, if you will.

3:20So subscriptions are a great way to give more content to the fans, monetize in another way through their business and through your show, but then also open that opportunity for support from your fans and from your listeners. So am I sleeping on things? Is it the majority of podcasts that have a decent following have stuff that you can get bonus content for? Or is this an emerging category and I'm not a total doofus? No, you know, great question. It depends on how deep you want to go there. Patreon's been around since 2013. So this whole kind of direct to fan monetization has been around for a while.

4:00I truly think it just took some time for audience members to really kind of open up to, oh, I can pay my creators and shows that they produce directly. I don't have to pay a cable bill to be able to get access to content on television that they might produce. So I think COVID really pushed people into that direction. And then it's been really interesting seeing all the other companies that have popped up. But on Apple Podcast subscriptions, you'll notice if you follow any shows right underneath their main banner of the show, you'll see their little subscription bar. So if you listen to any shows, you might even see some bonus episodes and early access episodes in your feed.

4:38But it's becoming more and more adopted by shows, especially just as ad revenue can sometimes be unpredictable. It kind of creates that nice, stable, recurring revenue stream. So it's been around for a while, but I would say in the last two years, more and more shows are starting to adopt subscriptions and membership. But not even just on one platform. I think three years ago, people were like, I want one platform for my membership, subscriptions, and bonus content. But now creators are starting to realize, oh, it's actually like just as it's smart to diversify where you can find new viewers and listeners.

5:13It's also really smart to diversify where you can actually acquire new subscribers and paying members to the show as well. So it's been an interesting last three years, the change in evolution. So, no, you're not behind at all. You're actually right in line with everyone. So it's all good. Okay, good. I'm actually going to do something about this when we're done with all this. So the biggest question I always get when it comes to podcasting is the majority of people on this planet don't have a podcast, right? But there are a lot of people in their minds like, well, maybe I should have one. And they feel like, oh, that ship has sailed.

5:42I missed it. There's millions of podcasts. I'll be drowned out. No one's going to care about me. Has the ship sailed? Is it too late to start a podcast? Does everybody have one? Great question. There was an interesting stat floating around and I can't remember who said it, but correct me if I'm wrong and maybe we'll put something in the episode description. But I believe right now you have the same shot of making it in the NBA of creating a successful podcast, which is extremely daunting. Like if you're someone who operates on like I'm success driven and I want to make sure it's successful, you know, being a creator, being a podcaster, there's going to be all those moments where there's going to be that flat growth, you know, and it is tricky to break through.

6:27But all that being said, I'm a firm believer because I've seen it happen that you don't need anyone to wait or tell you that you're good to create. I say start creating. The best way to go about it is using the discoverability platforms like TikTok and Instagram and Meta and YouTube Shorts to really help promote the show and market it. The best thing that ever happened, and I saw it at Patreon, was clipping and everyone clipping their podcasts and throwing it up onto TikTok. And shows like The Basement Yard had a perfect example. All of a sudden, their fans started repurposing clips as well because they knew there was a strong appetite for people to watch all these comedy bits on TikTok.

7:05And so that self-promotion was huge, but the basement yard is a really good example because they've been around for years before they actually kind of broke through and are selling out, you know, huge venues across the U S on their, on their tour, recording their podcast live. So all I can say is literally always keep producing. And if you have an itch to create a show, create a show. The biggest thing is stick-to-itiveness. You know, we all can be our own worst enemies, but you really just need to continue through those rough patches and promote the show and get it out there. So it's not too late.

7:40Are there a lot of podcasts out there? Yes. But I'm a firm believer that, you know, if you've got a story to tell and like, look at this, we got the setup right here. I don't create a podcast. I work with podcasters, but it's very easy to get the equipment. You just got to find a story to tell. So I'm a firm believer that it's never too late. And you touched on something a little bit that I feel like sometimes people get started with a podcast and they're 10 episodes in and I'm only getting like 30, 40 downloads. What am I even doing? It takes time, right? It's not an overnight thing. Yeah. Yeah.

8:11No, not an overnight thing. It's truly one of those, like it's the whole 10 ,000 hours. I studied, we talked about Percy Jackson. and I studied musical theater all over the walls of the school of music at my undergrad was, are you hitting your 10 ,000 hours? And it was that whole lesson of, you know, you hit 10 ,000 hours, you're an expert at whatever you're doing. And so I always have followed that maybe it's because I was 18 and it was just implanted in my brain. But reps matter. And so, you know, getting your reps in and seeing through kind of those early stages and growing pains are the necessary traits.

8:44You know, I kind of think of it this way, you know, we, there are a lot of creators, I won't say names, but there's a lot of creators that kind of pop up from a viral moment and then they fade out like a burning star in the ozone, you know, and so that happens. But the ones that stick around and the ones that go through those growing pains and climb and just really, again, stick to it, then you kind of really see those shows stay at the top and have that whole community and that story that, you know, is really appealing for people. You know, I was surprised just now before when you mentioned, you know, platforms like Meta and TikTok and YouTube shorts and stuff, because I'm happy.

9:18It's like, I like knowing that you guys kind of like play nice with each other. If you are thinking about having a podcast or you have a podcast, is it like table stakes that you have a presence in places like that in order to actually create a following of your show? Can you actually do one without the other? Is it now you need that marriage of those platforms? I truly believe that you do need the marriage of the platforms. You know, I've always been a believer too, that there's this split in the creator economy from the creator economy as we know it, and I'll call it to the attention economy, which really dives more into the ad revenue and the advertising dollars that come into creators' businesses.

10:00And so the attention economy is also the discoverability tools. And those are the greatest ways for your show to get new audience members, right? My screen time is embarrassing, but I'm also chronically online since it's a part of my job, but my screen time's wild. And most of it is spent on those discovery platforms. You know, I know that my shows that I'm always going to go listen to, they're always saved. And I know exactly where they are. I'm not going to get distracted on my way to that content, but it's amazing to see the growth that can happen through a very viral clip for a lot of these podcasts.

10:31I used to work at Night Media, which is a management company that used to represent or formerly represented Mr. Beast. So I worked with a lot of YouTubers and the biggest thing that their whole focus is, is continually audience growth, especially at that time, since ad revenue and reach was a really main focus for them. The biggest thing and the best thing that they could do was clip down all their YouTube videos and repurpose them onto TikTok. And I don't know if any listeners or Jay, if yourself, if you watch a lot of YouTube, of course I do again. But what I see is in the comments in TikTok, everyone goes, oh, did you come here from YouTube?

11:05Or in the YouTube comments, they say, people who came here from TikTok like this comment. So it's a really interesting way. I'm always in the comment threads to look at where the audience is going. And it just goes to show like working with all those YouTubers that clipping out their videos helped push audience members to the long form platforms. Same thing with podcasts. Long form is a really big ask for your audience to stick through it for 45 to an hour long, especially if it's just a conversation, really personality driven. So that's why those clips are really important to grab, you know, whatever was that highlight thrown onto TikTok, let them see it.

11:40And if it's in the middle of the episode, it's kind of a nice little treat like, oh, when am I going to hear that TikTok clip that I saw? So yes, I always say and always suggest to shows whenever I work with them and they talk about how can we grow is always repurposing on the other platforms. It's a really, really important strategy. Yeah. And I try to do that. And listen, if you can't talk about this, I totally get it. But I get a very strong sense that Apple really prizes net new listeners, people that are discovering your show, that if you are promoting your show to get new people to listen to your show, it amplifies the discoverability within the platform, within Apple ecosystem, that it feels like Apple's like, yeah, great.

12:22You're out there aggressively trying to get new people to listen to the show. We're going to actually help circulate that. Is that a myth in my mind or is that a reality? Great question. So we do have an amazing group of editors that work at Apple and a lot of Apple selections are editorialized. So very hand selected, um, goes through an entire process. The best part is anyone can pitch the Apple editorial team. Uh, one of the greatest resources that I've always been sharing with shows from, you know, extremely large to the mid markets level size shows, um, is podcasters.apple.com and go to the support section.

12:58And there are so many great articles in terms of just getting your show up to best practices like full show page or full page show art and things like the subscription banners and channel artwork and just sort of like best tips in terms of how to market and grow within apple and then there's also tools and resources for you to be able to essentially pitch our editorial team through a certain form and then that gets looked over by the team all the time so our editors are always listening to shows like truly i always see them with their headphones on and always talking about what's new. But also at the same time too, one thing that I always find super interesting and I was reminded once I took the job was Apple coined the term podcasts back during iTunes.

13:40And let's say if Apple never did that, who knows what we'd be calling it these days. But it's super interesting to see that. So with all the different level shows that we have, of course, there's a lot of volume. But also too, if you look at just the overall listenership for the certain shows, it definitely varies in ranges. like the categories are a great example. But in terms of show growth, a lot of the charts and everything is based off of data and any of that information that gets pulled in. But outside of growth, our editors are always looking at new shows in terms of what's out there, who are the special guests and everything along those lines.

14:18So very hand-selected with our editorial team. But at the end of the day, it always comes down to what the content is, how well produced it is, and will it resonate with the majority listeners on Apple Podcasts? That's a super great resource. I've gone deep there, and I totally agree with you. Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about where it's all headed. There's this thing called AI. I don't know if you've heard of it. And it might take off. But what does the future look like? How is Apple and AI and podcasting and creators, where's it all going? What's happening? Yeah, great question. So I got my master's degree at Carnegie Mellon.

14:56And coming as an undergrad musical theater going to Carnegie Mellon, AI was all we talked about. And this was in 2017, 2016. And I remember just being like, AI, that's really interesting. I'm like, let's see what this is. So I really jumped into those conversations extremely early. And I kind of saw that there was a lot of disruption that's going to happen. Disruption in the meaning, in the terms of disrupting workflows. I don't think it, yes, sometimes might, you know, take away certain jobs. You know, I just met with a company called Opus Clips that does AI clipping, you know, which saves time and workflow.

15:27And so it was really cool to see all of the new changes that have happened within the new year. I think for podcasters with AI, it's just going to make it easier to find new audience members. The best thing, I think, is all the AI dubbing that's going on. I think there are a lot of companies that are doing a really good job with that. And essentially, looking first at YouTubers and how, of course, with Mr. Beast, distributing all of his shows and dubbing them into different regions and into different territories around the world has just totally spiked his audience base. And so I definitely think there's a lot of great ways to tap into new markets that you might not, as a creator yourself, have the resources or the means to do so that AI can help.

16:10But, you know, I also think it just gives people another way of thinking. Similarly, you know, I am no stranger to ChatGPT. I'll throw some sentences in there and be like, make this funny or kind of jazz this up for me a little bit. And so, you know, there's a lot of great other tools that are helping creators think of thumbnails and think of episode artwork. And if it's not like I'm going to use this piece of AI to market my show, but I'm going to use this AI to help me as a creative generate ideas moving forward. And so I think it just is going to continue to enhance people's ability to create, especially in podcasts.

16:43You know, when it comes to Apple podcast, we have great tools like our transcripts tool that you can pull in from the RSS feed, but then also let essentially listeners read along, which is a totally different thing. I'm a lyrics guy. So I love to follow along while I'm listening. So I think there's a lot of great opportunities there. But I do think though, it's disruptive in terms of current creators workflows. But I really do think that at the end of the day, it's just tools to enhance. But I think it's all about how creators use them and how certain podcasts will use them. Yeah, I love the transcription thing.

17:18That is so cool. Because I can go in there and just pull all this stuff. Okay, so this is a me question. I hope the answer is no, and you probably can't answer it. So one of the things I love about Apple that no other platform does is that you guys basically have subcategories. Okay, so I'm all about the marketing category, because that's what I do. And I'm also in business and whatever else, but those are bigger categories. And frankly, on the other platforms, they have business, but they don't have marketing as a subcategory, but you all do, which allows me to find all these cool shows. And I'm always worried one day, I'm going to go on to Apple Podcasts and all these kind of like subcategories, smaller categories are going to disappear.

17:56And you guys are going to play the same game everybody else does. Can you put my mind at ease and tell me, no, Jay, those are staying. It's going to be fine. Yeah, great question. You know, I can't say anything about kind of what's coming out and what is the current plan. But of course, you know, as they live right now, discoverability is such a huge component. And, you know, the number one thing that Apple podcast is always trying to do is help shows grow. And so things like those subcategory features are a great way to just let listeners go another layer deeper and then just make it easier even to like on for a show level sake on the back end of organizing and saying, what are we?

18:35What's our focus? And meeting listeners where they're at before they even hit the play button. So at least they know what they're getting into. So I definitely think that those subcategories will continue to stay. but if anything, I think there isn't even a spot where potentially improvements. So yeah, I'm glad that that feature definitely resonates. I definitely spend a lot of my time through the search bar and just diving through all those different collections. Oh yeah, this actually calms me down. It makes me very happy to hear that. So that's super helpful. All right, before we wrap up here, what people don't know about you is that you're basically a celebrity.

19:10Put aside all this Apple stuff, but you are, are you like Percy Jackson in human form here? Is this real? What is that all about? Yes. So I didn't play the role of Percy Jackson. I actually, I wish because I literally spent seven months of my life playing his best friend Grover, who is a satyr. And so literally probably for a combined total of like 300 odd hours, I've spent my life inside of these extremely heavy, extremely hot, sweaty goat pants. But it was great. After I graduated with my BFA for musical theater, I've loved storytelling. So it's a huge full circle moment for me in my career to still work with storytellers and work in a creative capacity, even if I'm not the conduit, let's say, of said story.

19:57But I love working in this field because it's truly where my passion lies. And so I was extremely fortunate to book the national tour, Percy Jackson, The Lightning Thief, out of college. the thing that's interesting about it is it's actually what kind of kicked me off in the direction that I took in my career. I met Rick during our final dress and I don't want to get in too much of the weeds but a lot of shows do a lot of previewing and a lot of you know smaller one-act versions as they try to get popularity to go to Broadway and this is all pre-COVID so it's a totally different world especially in theater and so Rick came for a preview we were doing a one-act version through a company called TheaterWorks that we essentially took to schools.

20:39We performed for a lot of field trips, a lot of 9 a.m. performances. So that's why I'm really used to waking up here in LA bright and early and being on. So it was really fun. But when I met Rick, I was like, how did this go from book to movie to musical? And he was like, a lot of my team really helped set that up. And so that's what sparked my whole next passion and wave of life is how can a lot of these great IPs that already exist and have these built-in fan bases continue to evolve and change? So it truly was one of those greatest career moments for me of booking the national tour, getting to perform all day, every day, and do something that as a child, I was like, this is a dream of mine.

21:17I loved Jim Carrey growing up. So being able to be an actor for me was a dream come true. But then once I was in the musical, I all of a sudden figured out that I had this new dream of like, how can all these great IPs continue to be recycled, repurposed, you know, restood up back, you know, later on. And I always felt that there's so many great ways to musical theater is I would say very polarizing. You either love it, you like it, or you're kind of indifferent and you get dragged to wicked and you walk out and say, that wasn't that bad. So I truly think that there's a lot of opportunities for people to be experienced in theater.

21:51So that was my whole kind of like intro into it but it was great played the role of grover um i have yet i basically after that was the last time i've done any performance so as i like to say i hung up my goat legs um but i hope you never never knows you know hopefully maybe there'll be another resurgence later on but um yeah it was a really fun experience you know 23 years old traveling around the the united states with your best friends i always tell people i was on tour and they're like oh are you in a band i was like no i played a i played a goat in a kid's musical kind of similar but it was, it was still fun.

22:21I would never trade it for anything. Great life experience and truly kind of created just my, I really honestly think the work ethic that I've kind of carried with me throughout my career from those times. That is so cool. Cause now your friends can even message you, you're the goat, you know, they can send you an emoji cause you're a goat, you know, there's so many benefits to that. And it's actually very cool that, you know, you come to your job now as an actual like creative type and create yourself and, and all that. That's just, you know you're not just some random you know boring guy like me you actually you know got like creative juices flowing to help people out so uh that's um and i just got tickets i'm going to see glengarry glenn ross which is opening up which i'm very excited yes yes and it's it's a great show always be closing you know i um we we we did it i went to western michigan university shout out um and they they did a production when i was there um love that show great show so enjoy Very excited.

23:17Yes, super fired up. Listen, I can't thank you enough for being here. We're going to put Todd's LinkedIn, everything in the show notes and all the other stuff. Todd, how else should people find you, connect with you, whatever? Yeah, LinkedIn is the go-to spot. And I always put this caveat out there. My LinkedIn DMs can become a little bit of the Wild West. So if it takes me a second to get back to you, it's not personal. It's just the way things work. But LinkedIn is the way to do it. And of course, I'm on all other socials, but strictly for business related stuff, LinkedIn's the spot to do it.

23:48And honestly, if you have any questions about like Apple, like your podcast, you know, if you have a podcast and it's not an Apple podcast, definitely put it on Apple podcasts. But I'm sure if you have one, it's there. But if you have any questions or if you're looking for go-to resources, again, podcasters.apple.com is the go-to resource. And it's basically the Bible. So go there. If you have any questions, click around the support articles. And then if you do have more questions, you can always scroll all the way down to the bottom and click contact us. And that'll basically put you in directly with our support team.

24:21So those are those like really quick, fast things. If there's any timely, that's the best spot to go for any issues surrounding the podcast. But anything personal, if you want to talk about creators, AI, anything, you know, hit me a DM in my LinkedIn. This is awesome. You are literally the goat for doing this. I appreciate you being here. And, you know, thanks again for joining the show. Yeah, appreciate it. Thank you for having me on. This is great. You did it. You made it to the end. Nice. But the party's not over. Subscribe to make sure you get the latest episode each week for more actionable tips and a little chaos from today's top marketers.