Most brands only use 30% of what their marketing tools can actually do!!! SPECIAL GUEST!! Alex Conners from Wunderkind 🎯 It Was NEVER the Tools | Ep. 522

0:01Welcome to Do This, Not That, the podcast for marketers. We share quick tips, things you can do right now, and then we add a little bit of chaos at the end of every episode. We also keep it short, like this intro. Let's check it out. We are back for Do This, Not That. And we have an incredible human being guest here. Well, we always have humans, but she is incredible. Who is here? We have Alex Connors. She is the Senior Director of Product Marketing at Wonderkin. And she's literally done it all. In the last 15 or so years, she's worked in every aspect of everything. Now she's on the product side and she is crushing it.

0:37And if you don't know Wonderkin, you're a big loser because they are one of the biggest players in identity-driven performance marketing. Ooh, big words. But seriously, they work with Gucci and Samsung and Sonos and Verizon, all these companies. What do they do? They help brands identify anonymous website visitors. Who are these people coming to your site and how do we turn them into revenue? And the thing that we're going to be talking about today, okay, is, and this applies for every marketer everywhere, is this idea of MarTech consolidation. Every platform is buying other platforms. Every platform is trying to be all things to all people.

1:10and we're going to dig into what does this MarTech consolidation mean? We're going to dig into does it mean anything for you? I want to welcome Alex to the show. You are here. I'm excited. Thanks, Jay. Really excited to be here. Although I think that intro was a little exaggerated, but I'll take the compliment. Oh, no. You are very awesome. And so let me set the stage here, and I want your take on this. So we've seen a lot lately. Zeta has bought Marigold in the ESP world. BlueCore just got acquired today by InsiderOne. Klaviyo is trying to become a CRM. You know, Braze is trying to chase down CDPs.

1:45You name whatever platform you use out there. It's either acquiring something, trying to be acquired, so everyone could be this all-in-one thing. Is that where the industry is headed? Are we all going to be using a single platform for all of our MarTech needs? No. It's about leverage. I think that, you know, AI has given marketers so much leverage in terms of how they spend their time, how we can be smarter, how we can optimize and make decisions faster, that using platforms for what they're best at is going to be where we see the market going. Here's the thing. Statistically speaking, most brands only use about 30 % of every capability within their marketing tool.

2:27And I think that, you know, we I remember signing HubSpot contracts and using email and some nurture and some lead scoring. And that's really it. But the consolidation is great. But we forget that that also comes with bolt ons and that comes with, you know, lack of integration, lack of coherent data. You have to merge the teams. You have to merge the positioning. You have to merge the actual stack. How's it going to fit with the rest of the stack? And so I think that, yeah, choose your ESP, choose your CRM, choose whatever is going to be your foundation. But to expect a tool to do absolutely everything is just unrealistic and not the direction the market's going to continue growing.

3:13So when I'm out there and whatever platform I'm using and I say, oh, my platform just acquired X, Y, and Z thingamabob, some AI thing, some data thing, some whatever thing. And I'll say to myself, now I don't need this other thing that I'm paying for over here. Okay. And then what happens to me is I then reach out to my platform and say, hey, you bought blah, blah, blah, hook me up. Now what do I do? And they go, yeah, that's going to happen in like two years or whatever. Like, what do you do when your platform buys something? Does it matter to you as a marketer? Yes, it totally matters. It matters for a couple of reasons.

3:50It tells you what part of their tool was missing. It's negotiation leverage, right? It's a lot easier to have a conversation with your CFO and say, hey, we're going to get this at a discounted rate, this capability. And every marketer is being pushed on budget, left, right, and center. But what I would say is the first and this is the me that worked in infrastructure, right? When, when a tool you're invested in makes an acquisition, the first question you have to ask is, where is this acquisition duplicative in my stack? And the second is get on the phone with your CSM and get access to the architecture, because every marketer has limited, limited engineering resources, we have limited resources to build the integrations, we have limited resources to consolidate our data to make it make sense, figure out what the architecture looks like and how easy it's going to be to leverage that new tool that the existing brand that you're working with or the existing tech that you're working with has bought.

4:50And then you know what that direction is going to look like. You know how long it's going to take for you to be able to use it. In some circumstances, like when HubSpot bought Clearbit, that was easy, right? But the Marigold Zeta acquisition, I mean, And anyone who's ever done an ESP migration or bought an ESP and stood it up or anyone who's ever done anything with Salesforce on the CRM side knows it takes time, it takes resources, and it takes a ton of technical due diligence to do testing and things like that. So I would say get access to the architecture so you can properly resource to actually use whatever is going to be integrated into your existing stack.

5:30I'm curious about something else. If I'm out there and I'll be, oh, I'm in financial services, I'm in direct-to-consumer, health and beauty, whatever the category is, and I'm thinking about a MarTech solution of some kind, how important is it to say, oh, I'm looking at this platform because they're big in my category? Or can you basically go to almost any platform out there and think that they're going to be good for the category that you are in specifically? I mean, are MarTech platforms better at some categories than others, or does that not matter? I think it's less about category and more about the skill set you have on your team.

6:09So, for instance, I went to the very first HubSpot user conference. It was called Hugs. It was in the Sheraton, Boston, Copley, Sheraton. HubSpot started as kind of where Klaviyo is today, down market, small business. We bought it because we were standing up a blog and we didn't want to put it on WordPress. We didn't have the resources to do it. We outgrew HubSpot very quickly and stayed on Marketo. For a direct-to-consumer business, Klaviyo does a ton, particularly with their Shopify integration and how they work in that ecosystem. But for some multi-brand retailers, it's not going to give them everything they need.

6:46They have more engineers. They have bigger marketing teams to make those decisions. So yes, to some degree, like you need couponing, you need decisioning, you need the right access to the data, you need the right ability to build flows and campaigns. But it ultimately comes down to what does your team look like and what are they capable of deploying easily and fast? Because ESPs essentially democratized mass communication for marketers, right, 10 to 15 years ago. But the truth is the customer journey has never been longer than it's ever been before. Customer acquisition costs as of 2022 were up 222%.

7:25And I've seen some estimates that they're up as much as 40 % on that just in the last four years. Marketers have to be in a position to pivot quickly, to deliver a campaign or a message or an experience that is happening based on something in real time, right? What are those viral social moments? Like, I hate to go back to this, but like astronomer hiring Gwyneth Paltrow to do that video when the whole backlash happened. You need to have the right tools, but you need to have the right teams to execute on those tools in real time versus, I kind of said this earlier when we were preparing for today's discussion, everyone thinks there's a silver bullet.

8:05There's no silver bullet. It's what tools are going to give your team the most leverage. So when you say that you have to have the right team, is it like, okay, let's say we're on HubSpot right now and we're deciding, oh, we're going to switch to Salesforce or whatever, but my team is all HubSpot certified. They know all that, that the team then needs to go and get, you know, Salesforce or Pardot certified or whatever. Like, does it have to be intentional or do you see, okay, I got smart people. They'll just learn as we go here. Like how intentional do you think a team needs to be when they're making that switch?

8:39Because to me, people, I think, rely on outside consultants to kind of band-aid. Well, it's a total band-aid, but I would say like what's the cost benefit of migrating to Salesforce? If you have a tool, if you have a team that knows HubSpot that works, figure out what you're missing in your data. Like what can you add to HubSpot to enhance it versus doing an entire migration? Most brands switch ESPs or CRMs every three to five years, and they think they're saving on the contract. But you just mentioned consultants. Like when it comes time to find the team to do the whole migration and then integrate it with the rest of your stack and your internal stack.

9:17And, you know, Snowflake has made a ton of inroads in the marketing cohort. Right. In terms of data warehouses. Like, is it really worth it? What are you where when do you hit diminishing returns? I think that is so important for people to hear because I don't know why everyone thinks the grass is greener when it comes to anything in their market. It's half dead everywhere. You're locked into some stack. There's yellow grass everywhere. Yeah, you're like, it's crazy. Like, it's not the tools, it's the people. And I think if there's one thing AI's taught us, it's that it's really not the tools anymore.

9:54Right. Maybe you have tools on your team, but it's not the actual tools. It's the data. It's the data. You said something earlier that is like sticking with me, which is that everybody with the different MarTech tools that they're using, they use about 30 % of the capabilities. That freaks me out because I sign checks to all these garbage vendors I use. And now I'm sitting here saying, are we not even using what I'm paying for? Is that like a thing? Is this crazy? Like what's going on? It's totally a thing in marketing. It's been a thing in IT forever. We used to talk about this word shadow IT.

10:30The average enterprise, which I would categorize as like a fortune 5000 company has upwards of 91 marketing tools, which means how many of them are swiping on a credit card, buying something sideways. You know what I mean? Like, and then what's the security risk? I do think we're going to see those numbers go down. We're seeing a ton of innovation, particularly with cloud code and how like marketers are able to build. Um, but yeah, like brands are not, because here's the thing. One, a lot of these products have grown by acquisition, right? ESPs have grown by acquisition. So the integration process isn't as great.

11:09I was talking to a friend who leads analyst relations yesterday, who was a part of a big acquisition. And she said, it's 24 months before we're fully embedded into, um, into any tech stack. And that's on the enterprise side. But the truth is, unless you have like a hundred person marketing team, you're probably never going to have time to deploy those things because they take time. And that's why, like I said earlier, like everyone's looking for a silver bullet. I don't think the silver bullet is the stack. I think the silver bullet is the data that you have access to, how it integrates with your tools and the team that knows how to leverage that data.

11:49so i don't want to do a big commercial here but i'm a big fan of of wonderkin and i always have a hard time explaining what the hell it is that you all exactly do and so can you just make it like stupid proof because that's my level of understanding what do you guys actually do yeah so i'll i'll go back to wonderkin was founded on performance and identity we have an identity graph that's the largest in the world that has 9 billion about 9 billion devices and we have access to identity data that we can use for identity resolution for our clients on top of that wonderkin is the absolute best at marketing performance right we know conversions we know what drives performance when and we work with some of the biggest brands in the world on helping them drive performance.

12:40In the last two years, and this is why I joined, we have invested heavily in taking everything we know and productizing it into the autonomous marketing platform, which it runs on top of decisioning, behavioral, and intent data. We have some lightweight AI that sits on top of it. And then we do cross-channel decisioning. So we don't replace ESPs. We don't replace CRMs. We don't replace CDPs. We sit in between them and add more decisioning to drive better conversions, enrich with identity data. So you're spending all this money on driving traffic to your website. But if you don't know who the person is, you can't message them and you can't send any personalized texts to them.

13:25You can't do any of that. We know who they are and we can help you send more messages to the data or to the traffic you're already paying for the audience you're already paying for yeah and i think that your platform is a great example of something that just can't be like uh oh our our tool is going to do that too i mean this is like a massive undertaking to do what wonderkind is doing um all right we're going to shift gears really hard here because before the before we started you were giving me some hot hot takes on on some of your your sports teams you're an Eagles fan you're a Sixers fan so but you live in you live in New York so when you meet somebody and they're like hey I'm a Jets fan because the Jets are horrible they've been horrible forever no offense to any Jets fans out there but do you judge them or like wow yeah loser no that's not true I don't judge them I was born in the late 80s so I know what it's like to be a struggling sports fan um I judge them when they become Jets fans willingly as adults it's like becoming a Browns fan in midlife right so if you meet somebody like you know what I had to pick a team and I picked the Jets you're like oh you make bad life choices it's almost like they're ironic in making that decision like they don't know maybe they're like but I really like the logo you're like okay well that's also yeah like i don't yeah i don't get it like i can understand like if you like the jets like when when they were on hard knocks and rex ryan was the head coach maybe you like sanchez before he blew it fine but like unless it was like the nameth years the rex ryan years and you're like willingly becoming a jets fan i kind of don't understand new york sports and like be the be the person that's rooting against them so everyone like throws stuff at you no I just don't go I just don't go well here's why uh I had tickets to the Eagles Jets game at the Meadowland well MetLife now last year and it was like the Thursday night game and everyone was like why aren't you going and I was like because New York has done I love New York City I'm a seven-year New Yorker I think it's one of the greatest cities on earth but New York did two really bad things you can't get to the airport easily and you can't get to MetLife Stadium easily.

15:40So like a$200 Uber to watch the Eagles win by 20 on a Thursday night when I have to work on Friday, like didn't sound interesting to me. Whereas most other cities, you can very easily get to the stadium. Now MSG, I would have gone, but I wasn't going to pay$700 to see the Sixers lose by 30 last week. Well, the state that gets no love is New Jersey, because literally of the New York Giants, the football team, you have the New York Jets football team. They're New York teams, and they both play in New Jersey. That is so embarrassing for the state of New Jersey. So this is such a hot take, and I'm probably going to get heat for this.

16:15Before I was living in New York, I lived in Europe, and I was in Switzerland skiing, and we're out, and I hear a bunch of guys talking about their exits. And I turned, and I was like, you guys are from Jersey. And they were like, how could you tell? We don't have accents. I said, I know, but you're talking about your exit on the parkway. And they were like, where are you from? and growing up outside Philly, there's a big South Jersey contingent of Philly fans. And I said, the thing with Jersey that like doesn't get any credit, South Jersey people outside of the US say that they're from the Philly area, North Jersey people say that they're from New York, and Central Jersey people say that they're from Princeton.

16:50So like for a city with the highest property taxes, some of the most beautiful real estate in the world that has like a prime location other than the Real Housewives of New Jersey, no one publicly ever says they're from New Jersey. It's such a shame. Wow. You just did a PSA for New Jersey. I don't think, by the way, I don't think the Real Housewives helped New Jersey. No, they absolutely do not. But I still watch. Yeah, no. The same thing's happened with Rhode Island now. Rhode Island's getting crushed because of it. It's getting crushed. But I have to say the first episode, I was like, this is not for me.

17:21And now I'm kind of all in on Rhode Island. That's the best. The accent's tough, but I'm all in. what i will say new jersey did get credit in is i don't know if anyone's seen the world cup swag but it does say new york new jersey that's the first time i've ever seen any sporting event acknowledge new jersey in the gear so no one's gonna buy it their sales are gonna go in the toilet um i mean i didn't yeah i'm buying the philly gear if i'm honest listen obviously alex is very very cool you want to follow her you want to connect with her her name is alexandra connor C-O-N-N-E-R-S. We're going to put in the show notes.

17:58She is the Senior Director of Product Marketing at Wunderkin. You need to check out Wunderkin. It is wunderkin.co, wunderkin.co. Awesome company, great people, all the things. Alex, thanks for being here. Thank you. This was great. Wait, the party is not over. Go to jayschwedelson.com because I want to do stuff with you. I want to partner with you. When you click on the button, partner with Jay, you let me know what you got going on. work with my agency, work with me directly, get access to all of my free resources at jschwedelson.com. And I got a book coming out this April. It's called Stupider People Have Done It.

18:36And all of the net proceeds are going to the Bee Foundation for Cancer Research. Go on Amazon, buy Stupider People Have Done It. That way you can help kick cancer's butt with me. And if this podcast wasn't the worst podcast you've ever listened to, it might've been, leave a review, Follow the show. You are awesome. Go out there and crush it.