What are Spam Traps? EXPERT GUEST: ZeroBounce COO Brian Minick | Ep. 323

0:08Welcome to Do This Not That, the podcast for marketers. You'll walk away from each episode with actionable tips you can test immediately. You'll hear from the best minds in marketing who will share tactics, quick wins, and pitfalls to avoid. We'll also dig into life, pop culture, and the chaos that is our everyday. I'm Jay Schwetelson. Let's do this, not that.

0:40We are back for Do This Not That podcast presented by Marigold, and we have a repeat guest. You know that the guest is awesome when we ask them to come back on, and that is the case here. Who do we got? We got Brian Minnick, who's the chief operating officer at Zero Bounce, which is the absolute leader in the marketplace as it relates to email validation, data improvement, and data hygiene. And we asked Brian to come back because one topic we've never talked about on this show, okay, is spam traps. What exactly are they? Does everybody have to deal with them? How do you get rid of them? Because people kind of talk about them vaguely, but we're going to break it down in real simple terms here.

1:18And Brian is the smartest guy I know on this topic. So Brian, welcome back to the show, man. Thanks, Jay. Pleasure to be back here. And thanks. It's a very sensitive topic, to be very honest with you. I mean, I hear people freak out about the term, like it's mysterious, right? Because as simple as the name actually is, it's very descriptive of what exactly it is. But how do they get created? Where do they come from? How do you get them off? What do you do with these things? What kind of problems do they cause? There's a lot of like, you know, ripple effects of these type of things. And they tend to haunt you because they can kind of just bury themselves in your list.

1:54It's kind of like the bugs in the wall, you know, like, Where the hell did that thing come from? You know, like, where'd that come from? No, not pet bugs. I don't have any experience with those ones, Jay. Don't do that. All right, let me ask you a question, though. So we're going to open this up. People listening might be a business-to-business marketer. They might be a consumer marketer. They might have a huge list. They might have a small list. They may be marketing people in the education space or in the health space. All of it. First question is, does spam traps and trying to deal with spam traps and possibly having them in your databases, Is this an everybody problem?

2:28Absolutely. So it's on business domains and it's all over, by the way, riddled throughout all these kind of consumer emails. And for me, a consumer email is these Yahoo's, AOLs, Gmail accounts, Outlooks, whatever it might be, just the generally free provided accounts out there. They're riddled. And so the way that they kind of work on the business side is generally they're created from scratch. That's called a pristine spam trap, if anyone wants to go look that up. and that is intended to be a trap that is it was built by day one this is a spam trap this is a email address if you send to it you're blacklisted immediately no questions let me jump in there though i need to understand what that means so yeah let's first define what is the word spam trap mean what does blacklist mean like what does it mean if you send an email to a quote-unquote spam trap so if you send an email to a spam trap you get thrown into this blacklist and imagine it as you're on the you're on the you hit the you hit the club right you hit the guard gate at the community you're trying to get in and they're like nah you're not coming in here but no matter what you do there's no approval you're going to go get you need to go call the president of the club that's the only way you're getting it it's the same exact thing as soon as you do anything of that nature and you hit this mailbox that's a spam trap you're going to be thrown into a blacklist which is going to basically kick you off their mailing platforms and no messages will get delivered because you shouldn't have ever emailed that email in the first place.

3:53So that's really what a spam trap is. It's really that quick gotcha, right? It's why did you mail this email? You should have never received it. It's not signed up. And to be fair, they're not malicious about it. They don't go hit your forms with these emails. They don't go submit them or sign up or make a payment. So there's no real natural way that you should be receiving these emails. But what happens is, is they're coming from any of these purchase data sources, scrapers on the web. So these emails are published on websites, and you could actually Google them and find them. But the point is, those sites are not made to be scraping data off of.

4:33They're set up as traps. It's a speed trap. Think of it that way, right? You're not supposed to be speeding, so the cop's waiting for you to speed and hit you with the laser. It's the same exact concept you shouldn't be scraping data you shouldn't be buying lists so guess where all the spam traps live or on those things so okay some people out there are like well i probably have no spam traps on my list because i never bought data but let me change everyone's perspective on that maybe you have sales people that is going out there and grabbing some data from who knows where putting into your system you don't even know they're doing it they're adding them onto forms maybe you have really horrible uh competition and people in your life and they're going on your forms purposely trying to put garbage into your database.

5:14Would you say it is more the norm or the exception for someone to have a spam trap on their file if they're not cleaning it and validating and doing these certain steps? If your salespeople are commingling the data, I can guarantee you it's pretty much there. Salespeople are kind of the biggest offenders in marketing for email, by the way. So they cause the most problems. They ingest the most amount of data that comes from God knows where and they're the ones that create all the problems and then it's the marketing team to really have to deal with it by the way they just keep oh that didn't work let's send more email and they just kind of explode the problem and so what i've found very interesting is when i work with marketing and they don't know what sales is doing and then i talk to sales teams like do your marketing team know what you're doing over here and they're always the answer is always no and it's it mind boggles me and it's if anything if you're listening you're in sales please talk to marketing because they're probably scratching their head trying to figure out what's going on and vice versa.

6:12If you're in marketing, you need to understand what sales is doing and is it on your domain and affecting it. So it's really important. So why do spam traps exist? What does it mean? So you email to a spam trap, uh-oh, and now what happens? You go on a blacklist. What does it mean to go on a blacklist? Why do they even exist? So they exist to catch those people that are kind of not following good practices. That is the that is the design. And so there's the secondary kind of spam trap is called a recycled spam trap that is generally found on the Yahoo's, Gmail's, AOL's, whatever. And they're taking those abandoned accounts.

6:52So Jay, I'm sure you have one an AOL account from, you know, whatever, let's not date ourselves here. But an AOL account from back in the day, let's call it that you haven't logged into in probably 30 years or 20 years, whatever it might be, they may have taken that account and flipped it into a spam trap because maybe you were using it then. Maybe you were submitting it, but now it's not active. You haven't been mailing from it. You don't log into it. You don't click. You don't do anything. And so when they turn it into recycled, what it's doing is catching the people that don't pay attention to good email practices, which is, sorry, guys, if someone hasn't opened your email in three years and you're still mailing them, what are you doing those can be turned into spam traps and so that's kind of the concept they want to keep senders on their toes and they want to make sure that content going through the ecosystem is relevant hitting active people and that people want it that's always what it comes down to and engagement and behavior is really the signals behind that so all right is it now it's no longer um you have a window of time i'm not going to email to anybody that hasn't engaged in something in 12 months, 18 months, two years, whatever.

8:00And I'm doing that because I want to improve my metrics and this, that, or whatever. Really, you want to be doing that. You want to have that window of time because if you let it just go as long as possible, you just always email to everybody in your database, you are rolling the dice that you're going to be hitting. Spam traps, is that fair? Absolutely. So it's not just about that quantity side, which always seems to be the top of mind item for a lot of people in marketing is quantity, quantity, quantity. You have to look at recency. Recency has to be a component to some of these things. And especially in consumer email, by the way, a lot of people just make these things up and then they abandon them.

8:37I mean, they're sick of the spam. Nope, I'm done. How many personal email accounts do you have, Jay? Outside of work, right? A lot. I have seven. Yeah. And they have a purpose, every single one of them. And I'm not scared to leave one behind when I'm like, well, this got out of control. See ya. You know, the Apple stuff as well, how they're kind of allowing you to kind of private label each one and do all that, have more control. So that's really what it's about. And consumers want that. They want to be able to have a little bit more control of the email that's coming to them. So you have to follow good practices and engagement is one of them.

9:11Why would you email them if they haven't done anything with you in a year, two years? All right. So we now know what a spam trap is. We know that they can appear on any business database. They can appear on any consumer database and if you it doesn't matter the size of your database either um i know look you're at zero balance you're on the show at zero balance great service no offense to you when i say this there's a lot of services out there that are not as good as you're at zero bounce of course as you are about doing all the validation and all that removal of all this stuff but there happens to be a lot of companies that do it the reason i say that is um in order to play the email game right, is it table stakes now that you should be using a service like a zero bounce, if not zero bounce, another one?

10:00And how often at the bare minimum should you be using a service like this to remove and eliminate spam traps as best you can? Yeah. So on the spam traps specifically, it's really going to all depend upon your data sources, where you get that from and how you acquire it but if if you are on the sales side or you have sales teams that are affecting you and that's blending into your data as a marketer you need to be that needs to be happening every time that data data ingestion process comes in that's immediate uh you want to catch that stuff now if it's just hey i've had an email list and i'm i'm doing all the right things i'm i'm checking all the right boxes right and i'm conscious of all this if you're sending to businesses i would be checking every six months.

10:45It may be to a year. Now, if we're only talking about spam traps, but there's so many other issues, that's a different topic. Spam traps specifically, they're not exactly popping up here on business domains kind of all the time on recycling in a sense. Now, the consumer emails, those are turning and turning into recycled spam traps quite often. I would do no less than six months there as well because of that recency factor. There's a trigger. I believe that trigger with Google is two years. They've made those emails. I don't know if you have any of those abandoned accounts, Jay, but I've gotten them.

11:16And they're like, hey, because you put your recovery email in there. So they send to the recovery, hey, you haven't logged in. We're going to deactivate this account. Once that deactivation period happens, they have two choices. Release it out to the public, make it available for someone to acquire again, or create the trap. And so what do they do with it? Of course, no one's going to know here in front of the house. But back of the house, they're definitely paying attention to this stuff. All right. So if I'm listening to this thing, what I got out of that is if I don't have a window of time that I stop saying to people, the bare minimum has got to be two years.

11:49I mean, probably should be one year. But if it's longer than 24 months, you're playing with fire, business and consumer. And you should be using some sort of a service every six months to really make sure not just for spam traps. That's only one of many things you should be removing. But be looking for that. and um that way oh the other big one is let's say you're considering switching platforms you're moving from one crm one esp one email sending platform to another is it a good idea when you are pulling your data out of one system and then putting it into another that in that moment in time is that a good idea to run it through a service a validation service to give yourself the best possible chance to start out of the gate strong yeah that is the critical time to do it because think about this and and ask you'd have to ask yourself if you haven't done this for yourself already why am i moving esps generally speaking it's platform or sorry you know features or it's going to be results right there's really not great reason price sure it might be another one but but features and results and results are also dictated by your list and dictated by your behaviors and so if you're looking to now go all right i'm on esp a i'm going to espb and you want a different result you also should clean that data up and make sure you start fresh because you're getting a new ip address by the way which could be good or bad hopefully good if you know your research you go dig into that one see what's going on there but that's the time where you have the opportunity to kind of hit a little bit of a reset button and make sure you're starting out of the gate properly.

13:26Also, that's when the ESPs are really paying attention to you to determine what type of sender you are and what they want to do with you. So there's a lot of people behind the scenes on these big platforms, by the way, big or small. The smaller ones sometimes care even more. They have switches and do not let anyone fool you. They will pull that switch on you. And what that switch means is that is this a great sender are they going to help my whole company yes put them into a category of an ip address or sending infrastructure that's powerful that's strong that creates good signals and it's helping the whole company by the way so this is why they would do it and then you know inversely is this a sender that causes lots of problems on my infrastructure they get a lot of spam complaints they hit spam traps i have to deal with these isps that's the switch, they'll pull down on you and they'll put you into a lower quality pool of infrastructure.

14:20And by the way, you have no clue this is all happening. It's happening though. Just be aware of this. And they're judging you because they don't want to turn your money away. In some cases, they will and they'll kick you off if it's that bad. But they also, if you're kind of bad, you're not great. They'll put you into that lower tier because they don't want to lose the revenue, but they also kind of don't care about your results anymore. They kind of give up on you and they say, well, let's put them with everyone else like this. It's really important. You don't want to fall into that kind of bottom bucket.

14:49And every ESP is going to do this. That's amazing. That's super valuable. And I think people are sleeping on all of this. And they're just hoping for the best. So they think they put the word free in the subject line. And that's all of their problems. I mean, it's ridiculous. All right. So before we wrap up here, now everybody's got to hear about why Zero Bounce is awesome, how to follow you, how to get involved with Zero Bounce. Tell everybody everything. Let's hear it. Let's do it. So firstly, please connect with me on LinkedIn. Brian Minnick. I'm the CEO of Zero Bounce. Very accessible. And I love the conversations.

15:19I get the most amazing conversations through LinkedIn. Please message me there. Secondly, if you want to come to Zero Bounce, check it out. Don't drop your mic on you and go ahead and you can sign up for a free account. You get free credits. You can test everything out and get a good idea of what the service will do. If you have any of these major tools, integrate with them, breathe with your systems. So as things are churning, we'll churn them out with you. That's something you definitely want to do and hook up to sign up forms. Intake forms are huge. We're catching typos like I've never seen before.

15:48And the amount of data and traffic that's coming with bad data should be caught and you can catch it with these users in real time. So let's get that stuff cleaned up for you. We want to make your email succeed. That is the point. Listen, everybody should really go and connect with Brian on LinkedIn. He's one of the few normal people that I've met in the world of email that understands all the technical stuff. He's not like this giant nerd that can't have a conversation. So like straight up, you want to connect with him. And I'm a huge fan of Zero Bounce. Brian, thanks for being here, man. Appreciate it.

16:21Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Good to see you again. All right, man. Take it easy. You did it. You made it to the end. Nice. But the party's not over. Subscribe to make sure you get the latest episode each week for more actionable tips and a little chaos from today's top marketers. And hook us up with a five-star review if this wasn't the worst podcast of all time. Lastly, if you want access to the best virtual marketing events that are also 100 % free, visit guruevents.com so you can hear from the world's top marketers like Damon John, Martha Stewart, and me. Guruevents.com. Check it out.

17:02Thank you.