Did a "difficult woman" upset Andy Burnham's cabinet plans?

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0:47Hello and welcome to Electoral Dysfunction with me, Beth Rigby. Me, Ruth Davidson. and me Harriet Harman. And me Jess Phillips. Yes that is right. In these monumental moments in our political lives we don't have threesomes around here we've got foursomes. With so much going on with this bloody Labour government that just keeps chopping and changing and Andy Burnham revealing his new cabinet in a drama that went on to near midnight last night. We have got the whole band back together. And we want to go over what sort of people are coming into Andy Burnham's cabinet. What does it tell us about his number 10s?

1:28What about the lack of lectern? What does that tell us about Andy Burnham's new, more relaxed style? And what about his first policies, a commitment to end rough sleeping? And his first policy announced this morning, he's going to cut 45 quid off everyone's energy bills from October by taking VAT off electricity bills. So I'm going to say to you all in just one sentence, what's the most promising thing and biggest niggle for you about Andy Burnham in his first 24 hours? I'm starting with Jess. I think it's promising that he came out with a policy about ending rough sleeping. It's tangible, it's measurable it's I mean it's a bit motherhood and apple pie isn't it who wouldn't want to end rough sleeping and my biggest niggle I'm still yet to feel like you know and this isn't their fault that there's going to be like big bold change I'm still waiting to see that come to together yeah so I think the most promising thing was actually the surprise pick a chancellor I think a symbol about the fact that they're serious about defence being funded.

2:43The fact that it wasn't Ed Miliband, I think actually has probably calmed a lot of places that were a bit feverish. In terms of niggles, it's still maddeningly vague, isn't it? I mean, in terms of that speech outside Downing Street, it was all a bit hopey-changey and not much in it. And also the lack of scrutiny, the idea that everything's happening over the summer, they're not letting Parliament be extended, he's not done a proper sit-down interview with any of the big political journalists, he's still not actually been tested on any of this stuff. Is he going to stick to the manifesto? Is he not going to stick to the manifesto because there wasn't enough change.

3:12You know, it's all just a bit confused at the moment. And also, there is a particular section of ladies of about my age with different sexual preferences that are very upset that Lectern Guy wasn't there yesterday. Actually, Lectern Guy was... I'm going to just... He's there earlier. No, right, this has annoyed me. First, the object... I'm going to say it now. The objectification of Hot Podium Guy, even calling him that, I actually think is, although I know him because I've been chatting with him in Downing Street, he's called Toby, he's lovely. Of course you have, Beth. And actually, I think he quite like, I mean, who wouldn't want to be called hot poach and guy in some ways?

3:51But in another way, if it was a woman and we were doing that, everyone would go nuts, right? So it's like... Not the same, Beth. It's not the same. And also, apart from anything... No, it's been called with years and years of control and being... Also, in my defence, I just called him lectern guy. I didn't call him hot podium guy. All right, I've taken the next step. Also, everyone who works in number 10 is called Kobe. Everyone. It's literally a legal requirement. But also, he was there anyway. So I'm just going to burst everyone's bubbles on this. He actually is the sound engineer. He's not employed just to bring out a lectern.

4:27They lay all the cables all around Downing Street. Just to lift a big heavy piece of wood and flex those muscles and then plop it down and then position it several ways. in front of all of the broadcasters. That's not his job, no, that he was just doing that as a side hustle, was he? It's too early for me for this. I think you've lost out here, Beth, because Ruth has made a cracking good joke and Jess has set out the ideological correct position. Anyway, the podium guy, whether he's hot or not, it's all in the eye of the beholder beauty. Anyway, where were we? Harriet. What are you like in your niggle, Harriet?

5:04I'm feeling ludicrously optimistic and positive. I don't know whether it's like, you know, apparently after you've had an operation, if you've been incredibly ill and you've had an operation and you wake up and you're so relieved you're not dead, you feel exuberant. That's how I feel. But I have got a niggle, which is, and I really, through this podcast, I need to speak to my colleagues who've been sacked from the cabinet and just say, nobody wants to hear bitterness and resentment and everybody wants this new regime to succeed. And that's for the good of the country and for the good of the party.

5:45And you're a great person and a great politician. Otherwise you'd never got to be an MP and got to be in the cabinet. So you can do good things now. So get on and do good things that you care about. Don't tweet disobliging stuff which undermines Labour government's new proposals. And so... Anyone in particular in your mind right now, Harriet Harman? Well, it's Darren tweeting this morning about the unfunded cut in VAT. It's like, you know, Darren is absolutely amazing. And, you know, for the moment, he's not in the cabinet. He's been in the cabinet, which is great. He's still an MP, which is great.

6:29So crack on and do good things. And I do remember, you know, just an anecdote here, going in to see Gordon Brown after I'd been absolutely sacked after 13 months into a Labour government, and I'd helped that Labour government get elected. 13 years I toiled in opposition to get the Labour government elected. 13 months after getting it elected, I was unceremoniously tossed out after loads of briefings at the front page in the newspapers to say harm and to face the axe. So I know what it's like to have a humiliating sacking. That was quite the spanking that Nanny just doled out to the backbenchers there.

7:08Sounds like you're sort of settling scores, Harriet. It sounds a little bit like, so Darren, don't get bitter now. Wait 20 years till you're on a podcast and then talk about the 13 years you spent getting bloody Labour, bloody elected. No, but I'm just trying to say, I know it's hard because I've been in that tough situation, but you don't make it better by being miserable. You've got to crack on with what you care about. Politics is a belief business. It's a cause being a Labour person. It's not a career. If you've been sacked and you act bitter, you do just look bitter and you look like it's the sacking, not the fundamental of the thing you care about being the thing that drives you.

7:51However, if you resign, there is a much more sort of like, it's perfectly fine to hold the current government to account on the basis of that. And they haven't, you know, it's been 12 hours. Give them give the loves a chance. if they don't do the things that you care about then it is perfectly reasonable to not snarkily but like although I like a bit of snark to hold them to account on that and actually if you're a cabinet if you've been a cabinet minister or a minister you know you know where the bones are and the bodies are buried so you know the right questions to ask and it's perfectly fine to do that on the basis of something you care about but if you come out bitter after you've been sacked It does just look like bitterness on your part that you didn't get the job.

8:43And if you had been given the job, you'd be buttoned up. The danger is you get used by the hostile media to undermine the government. And therefore, for the moment, there needs to be a bit of a self-denying ordinance of the sat cabinet ministers. They can't just be like everybody else holding the government to account. But I think you're absolutely right, Jess. You're in a completely different position. So you can crack on. Crack on and give them both barrels in this pod. So far, so far. I want to know, actually, Beth, from your view, from you being the nasty media that are getting all these leaks from Darren Jones and everybody else, in terms of not the characters that are now off to the side, but the main players, what have you thought has worked well in the last 24 hours and what do you think the niggles have been?

9:24If I had to boil it down into one sentence, I would say that my niggle is a new prime minister promising the biggest change in 40 years and in the same breath saying he's going to stick with the manifesto. I just don't know how he does that. That doesn't square up for me. And so now I cannot help but think, is he actually gearing up for an early election? I think on the positive, in Downing Street, there was genuine energy, enthusiasm, excitement. I have to say, as a sceptical journalist, I'm not cynical, but it's my job to be sceptical and ask questions. the way he delivered that initial speech no notes he stood in front of the cameras of the world he gave a really polished performance he was expansive he was expressive you know he seemed very sincere it was a different way of communicating it was definitely a change of style and I guess the question is for me whether that actually matches into a change in substance that wins voters back around for Labour.

10:33But my big gripe is, it's what you said about the vagueness of all the policy proposals. It just doesn't square up. He said to us yesterday, I'm going to fix social care. He said, a generation of politicians know it's a problem. We haven't fixed it. I'm not going to leave office without having fixed it. And I'm like, great, everyone agrees that it needs sorting out. But you haven't got a mandate to do that, Andy Burnham, if you're going to raise taxes, which you might have to do. I'm presuming if there's going to be the National Care Service, that when he was health minister, however many years ago, Andy Burnham had trailed and had talked about and then never came to fruition.

11:07That's going to cost a lot more even than the one that was talked about in 2019 under Boris Johnson. So there is this question too of where does the money come from? Because it's other people's money and it's the voters' money and it's businesses' money. And actually you do need a mandate for taking money off of people. You need their consent. You're not a highway robber. You don't just get to hold them at gunpoint because it's for nice things. I think that he should expend very early. I don't think we're here for, unlike Harriet Harman, I'm not here for a long time. I'm here for a good time. Take a risk.

11:37Take a gamble. Because the reason why everything is so short termist, why we have not solved this crisis, is because everybody screams dementia tax. So actually, he may only have three years in office and he should be absolutely bold and ruthless. Go down in a blaze of glory, Bab, would be my advice to him. I mean, I'll be honest. I stand on the manifesto and I've never read one. It's the idea that the people in the country are sat there pouring over the blinking manifesto. I don't know who you're hanging out with, but they're dumb. I read them. I read them. I'm glad that someone does, Beth. What I'm saying is I think that the more radical he is on the back of also saying that he's going to basically stick with the mandate from the 2024 election, the more difficult it's going to be for him politically, the more the pressure will build, the more there'll be questions about legitimacy.

12:33But I also hear what you're saying, Jess, which is that people are fed up of politics as usual. They are. Maybe he should just be really bold. And on something like social care, try and build a cross-party consensus where everyone comes together. Because that's actually what it needs. That is what it needs. That is unlikely, but I think he's trying to do that. In the interview that he did with Patrick Maguire in The Times, he praised both Nigel Farage and Kemi Badenoch. I mean, it was relatively lukewarm praise. He said Kemi Badenoch is much better than her predecessor, her predecessors, I think.

13:11But what you have to be really careful of is that Andy Burnham, like he does his no podium speech and he walks into Downing Street, that he doesn't get crushed by it. parliament crushes people and number 10 it has the potential to crush you but I hope he isn't because I think that he's just got to be brave we shall see shalt we I'm kind of with Jess if I was his team if I was advising him I would lean into the fact that you're new and that I would let all of the journalists and the opposition parties moan about no mandate and all the rest of it and I would I would do the big stuff or announce the big stuff early and if you like it vote for Oz when the election comes in 2029.

13:51But I think when you were interviewing him, Beth, the most interesting thing I thought about what he said is when you said, but the nerves must be kicking in, it's quite a big deal, suddenly you find yourself prime minister, how are you feeling? And he said, I feel ready. And I thought that that was tremendously confident. He wants to get on with it. And what you were saying, Jess, about the manifesto, I think is completely right, because there's a balance of risk. You know, if you've got the manifesto, you've got the mandate, you follow it, people have elected you on that basis. But actually, if it's not working out, then the balance of risk changes and it becomes less risky to stick with a manifesto that's not delivering rather than just saying, right, I'm ready, I'm in here, I know what the country needs me to do and I'm going to do it.

14:37And I would think that he's going to hopefully withstand the crushing pressure of the walls crowding in from number 10. I think he'll be able to do that. OK, I'm going to chiver you all along. It's going to be like herding cats today, isn't it? We have got to get to this cabinet because we're recording this pod a couple of hours before the first cabinet meeting. I'm going to hot foot it down to Downing Street for this moment. And we know who's taking what seat. So John Healy, who was Starmer's defence secretary, who resigned from that post over the defence investment plan, has become the chancellor.

15:11That was the big shocker of the afternoon. Ed Miliband is Foreign Secretary. Shabana Mahmood remains Home Secretary. So they're the big offices of state. I should note, it's gone from three women in the big offices of state to one woman in the big offices of state under Andy Burnham. But Ruth, why don't you run through the others that we've got in the Cabinet? Yes, let me go for that. Just while Harriet's taking a sharp intake of breath and realising that maybe the sun doesn't shine out of every orifice of Andy Burnham there. In terms of other big Burnham allies, Annalise Midgley becomes the chief whip.

15:45Yvette Cooper, who was the foreign secretary, she becomes the health secretary. Angela Rayner is back, former deputy prime minister. She's coming back as the housing secretary. That was the job that she had before with local government communities and lots of other things wrapped up into that. Jonathan Reynolds returns to his former role. He's the business and trade secretary. Lucy Powell becomes the education secretary. Wes Streeting goes to defence. That was an interesting one. And a very late announcement last night. Everyone was wondering, was Wes going to get anything? Had he negotiated anything as part of the deal not to run and not to have a leadership election?

16:17But he did. He got defence. Rumoured that Rachel Reeves had been offered it first and she turned it down because she couldn't take it as the Chancellor who had said to the Defence Department they weren't getting what they wanted. And Bridget Phillipson stays in Cabinet as the Minister for Women and Equalities, but she will no longer be Education Secretary. And the other really big name and big appointment into that cabinet was Louise Haig. Lou Haig, the former transport secretary, back in the cabinet. She's running the cabinet office for Andy Burnham. She ran his campaign. She is the mastermind about from his rise to power to his winning maker field, now to running government with him, really.

16:54And she is going to be his first secretary of state as well. Now, that title was last used by Dominic Raab. Interestingly, I thought Lucy Powell, the deputy Labour leader, was going to become deputy prime minister. I just assumed that that would happen because Angela Rayner was deputy prime minister when she was deputy Labour leader under Keir Starmer until she was forced into resigning from the government. But that didn't happen. And instead of making Lucy Powell a deputy PM, he's given Louise, not the deputy PM, but this first secretary of state role, which says to me that she is the most senior figure in his cabinet.

17:33And then before I ask you all about that, there were no jobs for, oh my God, it was an absolute. For Mr. I don't want factualism, I want to bring the party together, it was a ruthless cull of Starmer allies. I mean, they were pretty much all out. No jobs for Lammy, Rachel Reeves, we can come back to Steve Reid, Peter Carl, Liz Kendall, Darren Jones, Lord Hermer, Jenny Chapman. It was absolutely ruthless. The only ones that survived that I think hadn't called for Keir Starmer to resign, I think was Pat McFadden. I don't actually think anyone else survived it. Harriet and Jess, I was so in the zone of live broadcasting all day.

18:16Things happened that were strange to me, such as the John Healy appointment. Anything that you've got that can furnish me with the insider knowledge that I need to know just please spill your guts I think that the most interesting thing and actually the reason why I feel positive about Andy Burnham and this is no bad reflection on him necessarily is the power that Lou Haig will hold I think that the the cabinet office which I have to say as a government minister never quite sure what the cabinet office did but just hold meetings that that had endless minutes and then everyone argued about the minutes afterwards.

18:51But I think that the cabinet office will shrink a bit. And actually, Lou Haig will beef up the sort of first, the role of basically being the deputy prime minister. She is going to basically co-lead with Andy Burnham. That is the vibe that you get off them. They're always together. She was the person who everybody was talking to. And look, people never say this about women in politics and they always say it about sort of Spengali men. Lou Haig is an absolute, she is an operator, she is bright as a button, she is clever as hell, all hell and she's really hard-working. I think you're going to see actually Lou speaking for the government quite a lot.

19:37She is his right-hand woman. I have to say when you just said, oh, the big surprise was John Healy. It just naturally made me smile. And so it is a clever appointment by Andy Burnham because I don't know anyone who doesn't like John Healy. He is seen as being really honourable and decent. And I'm going to put this almost exclusively down, not just his own skills. His wife, Jackie, is one of the nicest people on earth and knows everybody in Parliament and they are a proper like team. I feel quite pleased by the John Healy thing and it's smart politics.

20:22Hi, producer Laura here. We'll get back to this episode of electoral dysfunction in a moment, but I'm just interrupting the podcast to remind you about our new members club. You will have heard Beth Ruth and Harriet talk about Sky News Insider a lot lately. It's$2.99 a month and you get an extra episode from us every Tuesday. You might have seen already that Jess Phillips is back. She's back on the podcast with some of those members-only episodes. As part of your subscription, you will also get these Friday episodes completely ad-free. And if you listen to our sister podcast, Trump 100, or if you're interested in our new Sky News podcast, Stuff Matters, with Ed Conway, you can get ad-free listening and bonus episodes to both of those shows too.

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21:27Can I ask you, Harriet, about Rachel and John Healy and Shabana and Ed Miliband? because we've discussed this on the pod about whether or not Ed Miliband was going to be Chancellor. Was it going to be Shabana Mahmood? The momentum seemed to ship last week away from Ed onto Shabana. I came back from Ukraine and I literally had to give my phone in. So I was really out of circulation. And I landed on Friday morning. I was like, sorry, when did it get decided in Westminster that Shabana Mahmood is the Chancellor? The pendulum slung so fast. But over the weekend when I made calls, what I was briefed was it was between Shabana Mahmood and Ed Miliband.

22:06Yeah. I also, when I asked Andy Burnham at that interview on the morning before we became prime minister about the briefings against Ed Miliband, the bad blood, the negativity around who was going to be chancellor, the infighting around it, the stuff that it had spun out within the Labour Party. He genuinely looked uncomfortable and unhappy. And I wonder whether, and this is my speculation, I haven't had this source, whether actually he was leaning towards Shabana Mahmood. But when it came to it, he realised that both appointments, be it Ed or Shabana, would have been really controversial. It was causing divisions in the party.

22:50It was creating an atmosphere of exactly what he wanted to avoid. So that is my little theory. but I haven't had time, to be honest, to go and ferret around and work out if I'm right or wrong. But Harriet, I really want to know what you think. And, you know, did you find out what Rachel was offered? Because her team wouldn't say what job she was offered, but other people in Cabinet told me they thought it was defence. Well, I think she would have liked to have stayed on, but in something that seemed like, you know, a big and important job. But the trouble is that nothing seems like a big and important job if you've been chancellor.

23:33And I mean, either you want to buy on the bullet and get over that and just stay in government and get on with doing a new job, or you feel you can't really make that move. And clearly she didn't really feel she could make that move. I completely agree with what Jess said about John Healy. And it was a very astute move because he's a non-ego as well as a non-factional politician and dates back to the era of when ministers knew they had to speak to the parliamentary Labour Party rather than just be locked up in their offices, being very grand. And of course, he was hiding in plain sight because he has, as you said, Beth, had five years experience in the Treasury.

24:14So I think that is a very successful move. And I think that quite early on, actually, they decided that it wasn't going to be Ed Miliband. But I think when Andy Burnham said he hadn't made up his mind, it was probably true. He made up his mind that it wasn't going to be Ed Miliband, but he hadn't made up his mind about who it was going to be. The thing about Shabana Mahmood is that it was reported that she wanted to stay in the Home Office, that she wanted to complete the job that she was doing on a whole range of issues. And also she was going to get attacked for having very little treasury experience.

24:50And I think with Ed Miliband, I can see actually, although Ed Miliband really wanted to be chancellor, I can see him making a great foreign secretary. He reminds me, he gives me a bit of the Robin Cook vibes, where he really put at the heart of Labour's government. And of course, climate change is a global issue. You can't sort climate change as a domestic thing. And he is massively committed to climate change. So I think he's going to really make climate change and Britain's role in saving the planet. Can I slightly press you, Harriet, on the grounds that for a few weeks there, you were telling us that only Ed Miliband would be credible enough and revolutionary enough to be the Chancellor, that anybody else, the Treasury, would control them rather than they would control the Treasury.

25:44I think, well, thank you for pointing that out, Ruth. I'm here to help. I'd just forgotten about John Healy. And so I was wrong on that. I just wonder whether or not I've got one, a sort of weird personality trait of being terribly enthusiastic with things or whether it's justified or whether I'm just mad. But I really do feel enthusiastic about John. It's a good thing. I have the exact opposite. He knows about, he's deeply embedded in all the defence stuff, obviously. So all the generals and NATO will be incredibly happy about him being there. But he also had a longstanding engagement with housing and all that regionalisation.

26:22So I just think that I was looking through a narrow lens along with everybody else. And, you know, I still think Ed would have been a great chancellor, but instead he's going to be a great foreign secretary. I'm a bit Pollyanna-ish. I've got to get a bit more cynical. Can I just say something about big jobs? Because you were talking about big jobs there. I think what's really interesting is we've once again seen the difference between the four big jobs and then what the individual parties think the next big job is. Because when you're saying that Rachel Reeves couldn't take defence because it wasn't a big job, to the Tories, that is the biggest of the jobs outside of the four great offices of state.

27:00We think that it's got strategic importance. You do lots of working with other countries. It is the defence of the realm is the most important thing. So in terms of Labour, I always think it seems like you think that health is the biggest job outside of the great offices of state. So sending somebody like Yvette Cooper, who's been a Home Secretary and a Foreign Secretary, to health isn't so much of a slight to her in Labour terms. Whereas for us to actually offer a former chancellor, if you don't want them to be your chancellor because you want to have lockstep with your chancellor, you can offer them foreign, yes.

27:29But if that's going to somebody else, actually offering them to defence is not a slight. I mean, somebody like Wes, going from somebody like Dan Jarvis to somebody like Wes as defence secretary seems like a slight to the army, the navy and the air force. So he's going to have to do a lot to reassure the service chiefs that he's got the heft for that job. Can I just ask, can I jump in here because it did not go according to plan yesterday. If you're appointing your cabinet at 11pm at night, that's because things have gone a bit, yeah, I wanted to go to bed. It's because things have gone a bit tits up, right?

28:08And the first clue of that was when I'm standing outside Downing Street and a couple of people did message me and say I've been sacked. So I did that. And then Rachel Reeves put out her letter. And as I'm reading the letter on air, trying to work out if she's been sacked or resigned and you're literally reading it blind. So you that you're one of her team messaged me and said, Rachel was offered another big job, but turned it down. So as soon as you know that Rachel Reeves was offered something and turned it down, that then knocks out all the other dominoes. And so I think that there was quite a lot of movement in that cabinet reshuffle.

28:44I don't think it went according to plan. Jess and Harriet, you would have been involved in cabinet reshuffles and walking up the street. Do you think things went a bit awry? Yeah, they must have done because of the time. Although there was definitely a view when I was talking to Andy Camp people last week that they wanted to take their time. You know, by virtue of the fact that you don't have to go and do an urgent question or, you know, like it's cabinet office questions at 11 o 'clock the next day. So you have to get everybody and all the ministers in role. There was a sense that they were going to take a little bit of time.

29:22However, something definitely went awry, I think, in people like refusing things that they'd been offered. or I've heard both that Rachel was offered defence and that absolutely denied that she wasn't offered defence. I think on the Yvette Cooper thing, whereas to Ruth's point that she would, I know for a fact, even when she was Home Secretary, Yvette was always really, really keen on the health brief, actually. So I imagine she went in with that in mind and negotiated. Do you think that she was offered something else? because I heard that Yvette was quite difficult in that she went in and was offered something and she was like, I don't think so.

30:08So do you think that she was tricky? She should be. She's been the home section, the foreign section. She's going to boss it in there. It's like, don't boss me around, Andy Burnham. No, thank you. Look, I don't know whether she was difficult particularly. You did smile when Bess said that. I absolutely love the idea of any woman going in and being difficult. It's not a vet keeper based. I really like the idea of a bloody difficult woman. That will always make me smile. And look, Andy Burnham has put a bloody difficult woman as his right hand woman. So, you know, I feel like bloody difficult women are going to rise to the top.

30:47But I think that that is probably what happened. I think that the big problem that they were facing was nobody wanted justice. because justice is a bit of a bin fire at the moment. Was it Alex Norris? Alex Norris, who let me tell you, he's gone from the immigration brief to justice. And genuinely, I am delighted. I love Alex Norris. He is one of the nicest people. Honestly, he's so lovely. But he has got Harriet Harmonism in that he is so enthusiastic in a crisis. You cannot, he is unflappable. Lammy would have stayed, I'm sure. I mean, I love David Lammy, but the Ministry of Justice, I have to say, I really love David Lamey.

31:27And I think he, you know, he inherited a basket case, as we, as we inherited from the last government, it was a basket case then. I have to say, I think you have to really, really grip that department and really and be bold in it. But Harriet, how was it for you? Because you were watching this reshuffle, two of your favourite people, I think it's fair to say in that cabinet, Rachel Reeves and Yvette Cooper, two of the most powerful women in the Labour administration, two of the biggest officers of state, both shuffled out of those jobs. And, you know, there are now, there's one woman that remains in the big officers of state.

32:06I mean, obviously, I was really sad how it all ended up with Rachel, but I think she can think to herself that she was critical to Labour getting elected, she helped build the economic credibility, which saw Keir Starmer elected with such a huge majority. And Rachel was a real partner in that. So the fact that we're in government, that Labour has such a big majority, she can feel satisfied that she was a huge part in that. And obviously, I'm very disappointed at how it ended for her and for Keir Starmer. But in relation to Yvette and health. I'm generally speaking, not in favour of lots of changes around all the time, because it takes you ages to get your feet under the desk and become competent in your department.

32:54So generally speaking, I'm not in favour of changes. But obviously, a new prime minister has got to set their own cabinet, and that's what he's done. But I do think that this idea of what job is more senior in the pecking order and demotions is a load of old nonsense. And I would give an example of that relating to myself, as I so often do, here I go, is that I was given the job of Solicitor General having been fired from being Secretary of State in the Cabinet. I was given this job Solicitor General and everybody was like, that isn't even a job. What is Solicitor General? That is humiliating.

33:29And actually, I thought that is a job in government. It's being one of the government's law officers. And I took that job and I did an amazing job on getting new legislation through on domestic violence, improving, increasing sentences for rapes and sexual offences. And actually, it's not the pecking order of the job, but it's what you do in it that matters. Also, if you have talent and you are in a lower job, whether in the cabinet or not, if you're talented, you'll make your thing the thing. Okay. So on that then, on that then, and another one of your babies that came up through your office, Harriet, that you gave your first job in politics too.

34:12Yeah, exactly. And you know that I love Liz Kendall. You know that I have a really strong piece of my chamber of my heart for Liz Kendall. The idea that that is not a woman who can perform in a governmental role somewhere, who is not talented enough, capable enough, gets stuff done, is low ego, is a great communicator about what she's doing, that there's no space for her in government, I think is a tragedy. But actually, I'm going to pivot away from that and put you on the spot, Jess, because you are one of Wes Streeting's biggest outriders. You resigned before he did. You were very upfront about the fact that would there be an election for the leadership, you would back him.

34:49I cannot believe for one second that when he had a conversation with Andy Burnham's team or Andy Burnham about whether he would stand against him or not after Makerfield, that he asked for defence. There is not a pig that flies in front of the moon that that happened. So tell me what you know. What happened? What I actually know from actual fact is that they didn't discuss actual positions. And literally that from the horse's mouth. Well, that was naive and stupid. But anyway, carry on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe it is stupid, but, you know, actually you have to go in, you know, like from the position of power that you hold.

35:24And if he wasn't going to stand, actually, he checked his chitty in quite early is the reality. Can I just say the pair of you are sitting there on this pod, basically telling me that everybody's happy and I'm going to call bullshit on that. Oh God, not everybody's happy. Because I don't think everybody can be happy. Oh, Jesus Christ, in a reason, you piss off way more people than you please. You leave many more enemies on the field. And let me tell you, my WhatsApp was lighting up yesterday with people unhappy. Harriet. Well, spill the tea. Come on. Harriet, are you happy that women inequalities, does it become its own thing?

35:56I'm a little bit shady on it. It is. It is its own thing. And Bridget Philipson, who was the education secretary, is now the standalone Women Inequalities. And I think that Women Inequalities had just become too fragmented. Nobody knew who was doing what. There was lots of good women with different bits and pieces of it. But I think she's now got a real, can I use the M word, a real mandate to pull it all together. And I hope Bridget will be tough and spiky and really demanding in that role because there are 180 women in the Parliamentary Labour Party, 180 women Labour MPs who really want the government to deliver for women and not be a manosphere.

36:39And she is their kind of bridge into the cabinet. But having said that, she'll get loads of backing from Lou Haig, who's a proper feminist.

36:51that's it from us today I got a leg it to down the street now I did want to discuss with you my Sunday text whatsapp exchange with Harriet in which she told me she'd walked out of Odyssey after 90 minutes got home to watch the world cup final instead and then said and I am directly quoting Harriet Harman here I've realized football is an amazing game Ruth our work here is done my friend it is i mean you know you know there's more happiness in a sheep that has returned to the flock that has been wayward than one that stayed the whole time now our task now though is to convince jess phillips come on jess look it's not gonna happen it's not i don't actually think it's happening basically inject jude bellingham memes into my veins but otherwise well i know but he's a he's a local lab but harriet that gave me that gave me a lot of joy Harriet.

37:44It gave me a lot of joy. Please do send us all your thoughts and questions over on our members forum. There's going to be a link to that in the show notes. And you can always message us on the burner phone. That's 07934 200 444 or email us on electoral dysfunction at sky.uk. Goodbye.