Alternate Realities: Double or Nothing

0:00Support for NPR and the following message come from IDTech. ID Tech is a summer camp for ages 7 to 17 with over 50 courses like BattleBots, AI, coding, game design, and more. Visit IDTech.com and use code IDTech to save$150. Hey, I'm Kelly McEvers, and this is Embedded from NPR. Earlier this year, we put out a series called Alternate Realities. And if you haven't listened, you will want to go back and do that before listening to this episode. Just to remind you what happened in the series, reporter Zach Mack was struggling with his father, who had gone deep into a rabbit hole of conspiracy theories.

0:42Zach's family was kind of falling apart because of his dad's beliefs. And then one day, his father gives him a list of 10 conspiracy theories that he said would come true by the end of 2024. and Zach took the bet, hoping it would be a way of understanding his father better and maybe getting him to change the way he thinks. But when his dad lost the bet, he refused to believe he was wrong in any way. Still, Zach has not given up on changing his father's mind and today Zach is here to update us with a one-episode follow-up. Zach will take the story from here. After Alternate Realities was out for the world to hear.

1:27Pretty much everyone I've ever met, and a lot of people I've never met, reached out to me to ask about the series. The question I got over and over, how's your family doing? And what did they think when they listened? It helped me make the break that I needed to make. I called my mom right away. Hearing it really confirmed that I was making the right decision for me. My sister was in town visiting me in Brooklyn, and she went on a long walk to listen. I remember feeling like, wow, this feels so New York to be just like crying in the street. It was like condensing down a couple of years of pain and situation into those three hours.

2:14But the person I was really nervous about hearing it, of course, was my dad. I waited and listened to the other one yesterday. How was that? What did you think? I mean, I'm impressed with some of my responses.

2:34I'm glad that was your takeaway. But yeah, I mean, it was hard. It was hard. It was sad. It was challenging. It was very emotional at times. But also, it was very real. Hearing this was such a relief. But that feeling didn't last very long because Dad didn't just want to discuss the series. Somehow, in the midst of our family coming apart, going 0 for 10 on the bet, and making zero progress on he and I convincing each other of anything, Dad thought it'd be a good idea to run it back. he wanted to make another bet for this year. I felt like we were stuck in the movie Groundhog Day where every year I wake up to the same nonsense.

3:19I can't believe you want to do this again. Hey, I got to win my money back, right? If you go 0 for 10 again, like what does that say? What does that mean? That's a great question. I feel very confident that will not happen. So I'll have to think about that. I'll have to think about that. That hold on. That is the exact, like verbatim, the exact thing you said to me last year. That's why I have to think about it. I have to come up with a new line, right? You do have to come up with a new line because we've already been here. I feel like I'm having a stroke right now. And this is like some crazy deja vu.

4:02Like we've done this. We know how this ends. I won't bother getting into all the details of Dad's predictions, but they were a smattering of conspiracy theory greatest hits, from stolen elections by the Democrats to some stuff about COVID and Fauci, even the truth behind the RFK and JFK assassinations. Just like last time, it looked like a very winnable bet. Last season, I saw one listener in the comments say, this was the easiest 10 grand I'll ever make. And I just got to say, no, no. Documenting my family falling apart in real time, hardest 10 grand I've ever made. I was exhausted just thinking about the prospect of another bet.

4:42At the same time, there was a part of me that just kept wondering. I already knew that dad being wrong or losing money and family wouldn't be enough to get him to reconsider his beliefs. But something would, right? I told him if we were going to do this again, I had one major stipulation. if you go 0 for 10 again I get to pick your media diet for the year I get to unsubscribe you from all the weird blogs you say goodbye to these profits I vet the information that you take in and I'll give you a wide range to choose from if I go 0 for 10 I will agree to that okay by the same token if i if you go 10 and 0 i'll let you run wild if i go 10 and 0 on this one i get to choose your media sources deal okay all right all right i'll do it i'll do it but i'm not gonna make a whole podcast about i cannot i cannot do what i just did because there's a part of me that i will never get back Well, I clearly caved on that one because here we are making another podcast.

6:04So why do this? Because this is bigger than my dad. After I put out the show, hundreds of people started emailing me, people struggling in the same situation with family members wrapped up in conspiracy theories, many of them reaching out to ask, what do I do? How do I pull someone out of the rabbit hole? And honestly, I didn't really know what to say to them. I mean, I failed to pull my dad out, so I didn't exactly have the answers they were looking for. I wasn't convinced this new bet was going to change dad's mind either. But I decided I wanted to find something that would. And then, late into this year's bet, I stumbled upon an approach that actually worked.

6:46Just not in the way I was expecting. That's after the break.

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7:59All right, we're back. In the months that followed, I started looking for new ways to try to reach my dad. I tried to see if any listeners had had success. I talked to people who used to be conspiracy theorists themselves. And I kept getting the same answers over and over again. It felt like the only people freeing themselves of conspiracy theories had done so on their own because they wanted to. That didn't seem like the most likely path for my dad. And then there were other people saying, just put up some boundaries with your father. Call him on his birthday. Don't talk about anything seriously.

8:33Basically, give up and create some distance. Save yourself the trouble. Now, I understand why this position works for a lot of people, but it's not what I wanted. I pressed on.

9:13A mediator who spent over 40 years working with people on this. His name is Pat Ryan. He told me that in the last couple years, he started to get tons of messages from people just like me looking for answers. When QAnon took place, we were inundated by families calling because our loved ones had gotten down these QAnon rabbit holes. And in extreme ways, one family I was talking to, the mother was in her 50s and she was out at night. and burner phones and anybody with red shoes was connected to the Vatican and to an alien planet. She had spun out. Pat's gone on to help a lot of people like that with a specific method, a method he first used on himself.

9:57So I'm 68. When I was 17, I was writing for my high school newspaper. I'm from Florida and the Phillies were spring training in Clearwater and they were learning TM. Transcendental meditation. Something many people have a positive relationship with, but Pat went down a different path. He got really involved with a very culty part of the movement. Some members even believe they had supernatural powers, like being able to levitate. Pat was in deep with these super yogis, and he remained there until one day he got a call from his dad about his sister getting caught up in a completely separate cult and in need of Pat's help.

10:38And he asked me to talk to my sister. And I'm like, Dad, she's a crazy Christian nut. And your son is an outstanding Hindu. So this is a little conflict. But I created an intervention for my sister in my home. During the intervention, Pat found himself listening to a former member of his sister's cult. And while they're explaining all the methods of coercion and manipulation, it suddenly clicks. I was going, my head going, oh my God, that's what they did to me. And so as I went through these three days with my sister, I started questioning what had happened to me. Had this been focused on me, I wouldn't have budged.

11:19What it did was it allowed me to ask questions within myself. Because Pat wasn't the focus of the intervention, he had his guard down. And that's what allowed him to start seeing himself in the former cult member story. Pat eventually leaves his meditation community behind and starts helping other people in cults and this intervention with his sister becomes the basis for a lot of his practice taking people's belief systems on slowly and indirectly it's what he calls third-party processing it's all about not challenging people's beliefs head-on actually when we spoke he just finished an intervention and so this intervention I just came from I didn't talk to this person about anything about their group that they were involved in.

12:05We talked about all kinds of other things, but in those other stories, they could see themselves in them. So you want to leave the person with that information and not try to make a sale. It's very hard not to try to make a sale. You're not trying to convince, see, see, see, you want the person to be able to see themselves in it. The idea is to create a safe place for someone to come out to where there's no judgments, no arguments, no, I was right, you were wrong, where someone's dignity could be preserved. The entire setup with my father is based around a bet, which is literally boils down to who's right and who's wrong, right?

12:49And whoever wins that bet not only gets a bunch of money, but you You get the pride, the ego of being right. Clearly, I'd been going about this all wrong. But Dad and I were already in so deep with two years of betting and countless arguments, we'd left safe spaces behind a long time ago. But Pat said there was a way to move forward. I think that we have to acknowledge that we all hold beliefs that are not rational. And then the question is, how do you communicate that? so i would want in terms of technique is to get you to appreciate what your father appreciates find the common ground what is the common elements and i can come up with stuff you know your daughter your father wants to solve the world's problems he doesn't want people to be taken advantage of he's concerned about uh people not having food he's concerned about the economic condition these are motivators yeah if you're going to enjoy on those i'm struggling to think of what are ways to join him in a way that doesn't feel insincere on my part or going too deep down the rabbit hole myself.

14:01I started to tell Pat, look, this is what he believes. He thinks that behind the Elon Musks of the world, there's a shadowy cabal of even more powerful people pulling the strings. And he's like, oh, those guys are just pawns. And I'm like, They're the most powerful and richest people in the world. You think they're low level? Come on, man. Pat was just sitting there smiling like, yeah, I get it. But if you want to change his mind, not only do you need to understand his worldview, you have to try to inhabit it. Then you can maybe help him find a way out within the logic of his own beliefs. That's the sacrifice you have to make.

14:40When you try to get someone to change, you have to make effort. Now, do you want to put up with that? I don't know. But if you're trying to facilitate someone else to make a change, there's a cost for that. And sometimes there's a cost for swallowing your own ego. You're talking about my ego. Yeah, yeah. And it may take a lot of effort on your side. Swallowing my ego, setting aside my own beliefs, that's hard. Pat was questioning why I was still doing this. He said, if I wanted to keep going, I was going to have to change. Because he's not asking for you to change it. He's not asking for this.

15:21Intervention by its nature is interfering with someone's life without their permission. He's not asking for you to interfere with his life. Right. People are interfering with it. So when you interfere with someone's life, you need to have good reasons for doing it. It's not like he's a drug addict living in the streets of Philadelphia on fentanyl. You know, the cost of this may be he loses money. He loses assets. The cost of this. He's lost a lot of his family. He's lost his family. That's the cost for him. Right. Pat was questioning the very premise of what I was doing in the first place. Why was I still trying to change my father's mind at all?

16:04This brought me back to something I've kind of worried about for a while. You know, it's funny. I sort of think at this point to bring my father into reality might be incredibly destabilizing for him because he might start to realize all that he's lost because of his beliefs. And I don't know. I could see it causing a chain reaction of existential crisis. Yeah. We want to make sure that the intervening in his life is not going to make the situation worse. And we have to be careful when you step into that.

16:51When dad and I originally started this strange little experiment, I did it because I thought it could help the family heal. But that didn't happen. And now mom and dad are not getting back together. In fact, they're well into divorce proceedings. So I wonder, am I being helpful? But then I kept thinking about all the people who wrote me going through similar heartache with their own family members. And how detrimental it's been for our country when people can't come to any consensus on what the truth is. I understand that trying to take on my dad's entire worldview was not in the cards for me anymore.

17:26But I would like to be able to have a conversation with him over dinner that doesn't end in the same circular argument. After that conversation with Pat, I tried a new approach.

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18:33Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. This message comes from BritBox, presenting On the Box, a new podcast taking listeners inside the world of BritBox and British TV, with talent interviews and behind-the-scenes stories, hosted by Edith Bowman and Michelle Collins. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. I think you're in a kind of echo chamber. Echo chamber? Right now? In the fall, I saw this movie, and it reminded me a lot of the conversations I've had with Dad over the years. You're consuming content on the internet that is reinforcing this sort of warped, subjective idea of reality.

19:19This is your best shot at me? Some rabbit hole bullshit you read in the Times? Come on, come on. The movie's called Begonia, and it's about this conspiracy theorist who kidnaps a big-time corporate CEO because he's convinced that she's an alien trying to destroy the planet, and is also killing all the bees. In the movie, the two lead characters, played by Jesse Plemons and Emma Stone, just cannot seem to agree on a shared reality, forcing them to continuously argue and talk past each other. Can we have a dialogue, please? Don't call it dialogue. This isn't death of a salesman. I thought maybe it would be cool to have dad go see this movie and talk about it.

19:58Maybe, per Pat's advice about third-party processing, we could just have a conversation about these views without dad feeling attacked. We could just discuss a movie. Truthfully, I had no idea how this was going to go and was a little nervous he'd hate the movie. Our taste in film is very different, and I'm not going to lie, this one's pretty out there. Where is my hair? Your hair has been destroyed. You shaved off my hair? To prevent you from contacting your ship. Your mother ship? Yeah, I thought the whole hair thing was hilarious and ridiculous. Totally. It's definitely a movie that's not taking itself too seriously.

20:36It's trying to have fun. It's trying to make jokes. I mean, but it also really speaks to the two mindsets that are very prevalent today. I agree. Luckily, Dad liked the movie. Do you feel like you understood why I was excited for you to see that movie? I mean, clearly, you know I'm on the side of the two guys, and I believe a lot of the same things that they believed. I just don't believe aliens are behind it and all the rest of that. It quickly launched us into a larger conversation. Yeah, I mean, the majority of what they said and what they believed is going on in the world, I would agree with.

21:21Like, was there anything specific? Like, what do you mean? The globalists, they are trying to control the planet. I mean, they're poisoning the environment. And I certainly believe they're killing the bees, too. Instead of picking at all the disagreements, I tried to find the common ground. Do you believe we're destroying the planet? I think human beings have done a lousy job of taking care of the planet. Of course, at other points, he'd say something I couldn't get on board with, but I mostly just let that stuff slide. I believe Obama had an illegitimate third term. I'm not going to take the bait on that one.

22:01That's not something I agree with you on. No, I know. No bait. I'm not throwing out bait. It felt like Dad and I were flowing again, building rapport. Pat said it also might be helpful if I shared a conspiracy that I believe in. Maybe showing dad that I can also have irrational beliefs would make it easier to talk about his. And luckily, there is a conspiracy theory I like to dabble in. We've all got one, right? The one I like is about how a certain professional sports league is maybe pulling the strings to maintain a balance throughout its league. Especially when it comes to the draft. yeah yeah i would agree with that i would agree with that in fact you know this is a great example yeah i'm glad we can talk about this of course dad immediately took it even further so for me see i would say that stronger i think all of professional sports is rigged in some way shape or form.

23:01Okay. I, in my heart, I believe that a hundred percent. But then, okay. So in that, how, how do you know that's true? Because I, you know, I, I follow this stuff. I'm, I'm invested in this stuff and, but I don't know for sure. Okay, exactly. That's why I said, this is a great example. I know because I believe in my spirit that it's confirmed by the Holy Spirit. And you're going to look at that and go, oh, you know, that's just a spiritual cop-out. But that's my best answer. Yeah. I guess, do you never worry about misreading or misinterpreting that Spirit of God? Oh, absolutely. I do misinterpret it at times.

23:56I do misread it. I don't always hear accurately. I am not infallible at misreading, misinterpreting God's voice and ascertaining truth from fiction. This felt like we were entering new territory I was doing my best to poke at my dad's worldview But from within his own belief system Because dad believes he's tapped into God and prophecy And that there's a battle between good and evil playing out It can make everything feel very high stakes Personally, I've always struggled to wrap my head around this That a conspiracy theory could somehow impact his relationship with God I think it has eternal consequences.

24:42Eternal consequences? You mean like what happens to you after you die? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, do you think there's life after death? I guess the best metaphor for what I believe is like lights on, lights off. Yeah. I mean, if I had your worldview, then yeah, none of it really matters. yeah but that doesn't make me a nihilist yeah I still believe like you know we should all be kind to each other I don't think it's all for nothing good I'm glad to hear that um but yeah I guess yeah for you there's larger stakes but I would say whether or not you believe in the globalists I don't think that impacts your you know you're not going to get stopped at the gates of heaven for that one you know you're not going to get tossed out for that Yeah, exactly.

25:40So then maybe the stakes aren't that high for that particular belief or for you believing that Joe Biden has a bunch of body doubles. That's a relatively... Yeah. That's low stakes, right? Does it matter if he does it? No, no. I wouldn't lose any sleep over being wrong about that. He wouldn't lose any sleep over being wrong about that? we have literally thought about these exact ideas for years and now suddenly he wasn't clinging to them as tightly anymore and i actually felt hopeful dad was leaving room for the possibility of being wrong which i know is tough for him do you think part of your interest in in religion and also i mean in i don't i don't mean this in a demeaning way it like interest in some of the conspiracy theories and stuff.

26:36Do you, do you feel like it might be because you don't like to deal with an ambiguity? I find that a lot of times what's, what can be comforting is, is having an answer. Yeah. Well, so yeah, I understand where you're going with this question.

27:05and wow I just I love the fact that we're even having this conversation and I'm gonna get emotional

27:23wow

27:28just brings tears to my eyes in a good way, in a very good way. Yeah, yeah. Can you articulate why? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, you know, I mean, I understand sometimes you just get hit with a wave of emotion. Yeah, exactly. I get it. Oh, man.