Where is Austin Tice?: A meeting in Muskat

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0:32It's been three months now since an American freelance journalist went missing in Syria. His name is Austin Tice. He's 31 years old. Tonight, Austin's parents are in Lebanon, hoping to learn more about what happened to their son. By November 2012, it's been two months since anyone has seen Austin publicly. The last sighting was in a staged abduction video that appeared on YouTube. So his parents, Deborah and Mark, travel to Beirut. They know Austin is somewhere across the border in Syria, but this is as close as they can get to him. We're here to appeal for help from people in the region, and especially to whomever is holding our son Austin, that they treat him well, keep him safe, let us contact him, and most of all, return him to us as soon as possible.

1:32On a small stage, they peer through a sea of microphones placed there by the press. This is the beginning of a media campaign to bring global attention to Austin's case. Our main purpose is to try to make contact with our son and to bring him safely home. There's an exhaustion in their faces that comes from being parents who can't reach a missing son. And that's a feeling shared by many families. Throughout the Civil War, Syrians are disappearing in huge numbers. And Austin isn't the only American. At least 11 American citizens have been jailed, tortured or killed. James Foley was working for a French news outlet.

2:22A female American hostage. Another US reporter, Stephen Sotlov. Syrian-American aid worker, Leila Shwikani. Majid Kamal Maz, a 61-year-old American psychotherapist. I've had friends and colleagues go missing in Syria. And when you spend time around hostage cases, one criticism comes up again and again. America has a hostage problem. Not because it lacks power. It has highly effective intelligence agencies, diplomats, law enforcement, and a military that can seemingly go anywhere. But each part of that system has its own priorities. So they don't always work as one or share information effectively.

3:03So opportunities to help people can get lost inside that system. And this is what Deborah Tice has told me she feels happened to Austin's case for the first 18 months of his abduction.

3:19OK, I bought a really nice girl braille. I love Earl Grey. In her daughter's kitchen, over many cups of Earl Grey, I asked Deborah about February of 2014, when she decided to go to Syria to look for her son alone. How did you arrange to go to Damascus? Did you just get on a plane or what did you do? I made sure that nobody knew what I was doing and I flew to Beirut, got in a cab and went to Damascus. You got in a cab and drove all the way to Damascus? Yep. Weren't you scared? No. No, the only thing I was scared of was that my government would find out and prevent me from going. That was the only thing I was afraid of.

4:05How long did you plan to be there? I didn't have a plan. I ended up being there three and a half months. And what were you hoping to achieve? I had no idea. But at least I would be there. I had pictures of him that I gave out, flyers. I met with quite a few people in the Syrian government. Deborah, who has never been to the region before and doesn't speak Arabic, is now inside the Syrian regime's surveillance state. This guy told me that he had Austin and he wanted like$150 ,000. For Austin? And then he showed me a picture that I had. He showed you a picture of Austin? Yeah, but it was the one that McClatchy had printed.

4:56Oh, so he'd taken it off the internet? Yeah. And then when he showed me the picture and I got really angry, he said, OK,$20 ,000. And he's menacing me on my chair. He's trying to intimidate you. He had his guy come in and his guy had on an AK and a knife and a pistol. I'm praying like crazy. What do I say to this person? And then I ended up saying things that I would not think God would tell me to say. But I have my mother pointer finger right on his nose, and I'm just threatening him. Finally, the foreign minister invited me to meet him. But while I was walking there, I got a call from Mark that said, have you heard that the United States has closed the embassies in Washington, D.C.?

5:48We'd already closed them. Oh, they closed the Syrian embassy? Yes, and the two consulates. To try to stop the Assad regime committing more atrocities against civilians, America has sanctioned the regime and limits official communication with the Syrian government. For Deborah, this timing is terrible. It traps Austin's case in a diplomatic standoff. And so, moments before my meeting, the meeting was of course cancelled, I never had a chance to get it again. I did all I could in Syria, I did everything I could think of. Was it difficult to leave Syria? Yes. It felt like abandonment. It felt like I was failing and abandoning my son.

6:37A few months after Deborah's visit to Damascus, the stark reality of the Syrian hostage crisis is laid bare. US officials are trying to verify the authenticity of a video that purportedly shows the violent killing of an American journalist. It shows a man in an orange jumpsuit kneeling in a desert area, and then he is executed by a man in black who is standing next to him. James Foley, an American journalist who'd once tried to help find Austin, is executed by ISIS on camera. The video is addressed to President Obama. ISIS say his death is a warning about America's intervention in the region. It's a moment of horror felt globally.

7:27Families of hostages have told us, and they've told me directly, about their frequent frustrations in dealing with their own government. It is true that there have been times where our government, regardless of good intentions, has let them down. In June 2015, almost three years after Austin's disappearance, President Obama overhauls the American hostage recovery system. Pressure has been building from the family members of hostages like Deborah Tice and Diane Foley, James' mother. As a government, we should always do everything in our power to bring these Americans home safe and to support their families.

8:13Despite the changes, Austin still hasn't been brought home. And Deborah has consistently told me that she feels let down. So, what has the American government been doing to find Austin Tice?

8:32I'm Josh Baker, and from BBC Radio 4 and NPR's Embedded, this is Where is Austin Tice? Series 3 of I'm Not a Monster Presents. Episode 6, A Meeting in Muscat.

8:52This message comes from Schwab. Self-directed investing, trading, full-service wealth management, automated investing, financial planning, thematic investing, retirement planning. And to think that's just a small taste of what Schwab offers. Because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances, choice matters. No matter your goals, investing style, life stage, or experience, Schwab has everything you need all in one place, so you can invest your way. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

9:53Hey, what's your problem? No, seriously. Are your grocery bills too high? Are you spending too much time on your phone? Maybe you're searching for a new job or you're trying to figure out how to set boundaries with your family. Whatever's on your mind, Life Kit has you covered with three episodes every week on health, money, mental health, and so much more. Listen to the Life Kit podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. There are typically three ways a government can get someone like Austin home. The first is money. Some governments pay. The United States doesn't. The second is the military option.

10:33Special forces going in to rescue him. But that's the Hollywood answer. In reality, it's incredibly dangerous. And it would only work if they know exactly where Austin is. And the United States doesn't. The third option is to talk to the captors. But the Syrian regime won't admit they have Austin and the Americans won't officially talk to them. I recognise that deep voice walking towards me. Good to see you. How are you? I'm doing all right. This is Roger Carstens, a former Special Forces soldier turned America's special presidential envoy for hostage affairs. I first interviewed him at the Four Seasons Hotel in Damascus, just after the regime fell.

11:24He was there with the US delegation searching for Austin. Roger, would you just give me some levels? Sure. One, two, three, four, five... I've come to see him in Washington DC, because back in 2020, Roger managed to begin secret conversations with the Syrians about Austin. How do you begin to set up a back channel with the Syrian regime? the American government had not really engaged with the Syrian government diplomatically in eight years. It's challenging to restart something because if you go into a meeting at the White House or the State Department and say, hey, I'd like to go talk to the Syrians about Austin ties.

12:06The knee jerk is to say, no, we've stopped talking to the Syrians. And in a way, what I tried to do is get permission to start reaching out to intermediaries. And I started talking to the head of Lebanese intelligence, shot him a note on WhatsApp and said, hey, I'd like to introduce myself, maybe have a broader conversation. I said, my goal, however, is to eventually meet the Syrians on the topic of Austin Tice and other Americans that have gone missing in Syria. How did he receive that? Very warmly. So this huge geopolitical global issue is essentially being orchestrated over WhatsApp. Yeah. I find, like, diplomacy, if you can remember what it was like to be five years old on a playground, all diplomacy is is that, except you wear suits and ties and everyone's gone to Harvard.

12:51It's the same stuff, you know, in terms of communicating, I think. So you get this text. What happens then? The head of Lebanese intelligence came back and said, look, they're willing to do this. But if you do this, you cannot bring up Austin Tice. So they said they'll meet you, but you're not allowed to talk about Austin. Correct. And I thought, well, that's really a strange request since I've made it clear that's why I want to go. But I said, sounds good. I hear what you're saying. If you would please pursue with the Syrians an opportunity to meet with them. Why do you think they were trying to shut that down so much?

13:29Our general thought is they wanted a chance to tell us what they wanted before we went in and started demanding information on what we wanted. So we finally get an invitation to go to Damascus. My counterpart at that time at the White House was Kash Patel. He's now head of the FBI. He's now head of the FBI. And so, you know, essentially I'm like, let's go together. And he said, yep, let's do it. So I land and we drove off to Damascus from Beirut. Went straight to the intelligence quarters there. So we were sitting there with the person who was at that time, we would have said is the number two or three in terms of power.

14:10within the country. Also Ali Mamluk? Indeed, Ali Mamluk. Who was the head of all intelligence. Correct. Smart, he's intelligent, well-dressed, super articulate, commands a room. But I have to think that he's probably the one that gave a lot of the orders that resulted in the deaths of well over 100 ,000 Syrians. And so I was sitting across from a person who was probably not the nicest guy. Ali Mamluk is one of President Assad's most trusted men, deep inside his inner circle and central to Syria's intelligence state. So a conversation with him is by extension a conversation with the president. First off, they wanted the United States to pull entirely out of Syria.

14:57So we want every U.S. soldier and all U.S. equipment out of Syria, number one. Number two, we want to reestablish diplomatic relations. But as a start, we'd like you to open up your embassy in Damascus. And number three, remove all sanctions. And if you do all that, and when you've done all that, then we might be willing to talk to you about your concerns. I.e. Austin Tice. And they did not say Austin Tice. They said about your concerns. What goes through your mind when they say that? Because those aren't small requests, right? Those are, you know, geopolitically shifting requests. Yeah. They're huge.

15:36Yeah. I mean, I think I probably didn't want to judge too much in my mind what was in the art of the possible at that time. Really? You weren't in your head going like, well, that's never going to happen. Well, you know, because I always wondered, like, what could we get away with? Why don't we cooperate on counterterrorism? So maybe the idea that we have to remove every soldier out, that could be transitioned into something else. In terms of sanctions, maybe I could talk them down a little bit on that. And on the embassy, maybe what I could offer there is to say to them, well, why don't we get a team out there and we'll take a look at it?

16:07So instead of just saying, no, no, no, impossible, ain't going to happen, I'm thinking to myself, I wonder what I could get away with that might result in me getting some information on Austin Tice. Sir Roger is considering whether the US government could make concessions to the Syrian regime. In effect, they're beginning to negotiate. You have obviously been told not to bring up Austin Tice. I brought it up. The one thing that could speed up this timeline is if we could get some information on Austin Tice. I threw that out there. And to their credit, he actually leaned back in his chair and he responded.

16:49We spent about 15 minutes or so talking about. What did he say? No one would ever really bring up Austin's name. But who are these people that you're talking about? Because we have other other Americans, too, that had gone missing. And I was able to actually slide a list over to them. And they were, you know, in a way playing a game of we don't know about these people. So tell us more. And what I tried to do was not to be too accusatory at that point. We'd like your help in determining what happened and, if possible, finding him and them. So in a way, you're kind of leaving the door open for like if they want to miraculously invent.

17:27We found this person. We found 100 percent. In a barn somewhere. 100%. That was absolutely conscious and say that if we could, we would like to work together and maybe you could help us in locating Austin Tice and these other Americans.

17:44Roger returns to America and debriefs with intelligence agencies, politicians and diplomats. He gives them every bit of information he can, what was said, who was there. He even draws a diagram of the room. As they start to consider what their next move might be, President Trump goes on Fox News and is asked about President Assad. Is it true that after Assad gassed children for the second time, that it was you that wanted to take out Assad, that you had a good sight on him, and it was General Mattis who talked you out of it? And if it is true, do you regret not taking him out? I would have rather taken him out.

18:23I had a ball set. Mattis didn't want to do it. Mattis was a highly overrated general. and I let him go. He worked for Obama. He says he wanted to kill Assad. His statement goes viral. The Syrians go quiet. And two and a half years go by before the Americans can get back in a room with them to discuss Austin Tice. This time, Roger sends his deputy and President Assad appoints a new envoy. This message comes from Schwab. Self-directed investing, trading, full-service wealth management, automated investing, financial planning, thematic investing, retirement planning. And to think, that's just a small taste of what Schwab offers.

19:12Because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances, choice matters. No matter your goals, investing style, life stage, or experience,

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20:28There we go.

20:33Hi. Hi. I was stuck with the traffic now. The number of cars in Damascus may be tripled since the fall of the regime. Yeah. This is Imad Mustafa. He led the Syrian delegation. He's thin with a shaven head, smartly dressed as you'd expect from a diplomat. I've been told he's shrewd, even a brilliant negotiator. Would it be possible to put a microphone on you? In downtown Damascus, my colleague Sara and I are shown into his living room. Syrian art adorns the walls alongside ornate furniture from China, his last diplomatic posting. We sit and begin to discuss the secret talks that this time took place on neutral territory, in Muscat, Oman.

21:21We arrived to the guest house and then the American delegation came, exuberant, happy, started shaking hands with everyone, the Syrian delegation, and asking me about if I slept well and in which hotel I was staying. I am sure they already knew in which hotel I was staying. How was my trip? Was it comfortable? You know, the American style. So the ice melted immediately and we engaged in a very, very long discussion that lasted five hours, 20 minutes. So we discussed almost everything, the Syrian crisis, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, everything. What sort of things were they saying to you about Austin?

22:08They would say and repeat time and again non-stop. If you engage with us trying to find where is Austin ties, we promise you it will be a game changer and things will change between us and you. They are willing to withdraw from the oil fields and gas fields that they are occupying in northeast Syria. So they were willing to physically move their troops in Syria. Did it surprise you that they were willing to offer something that big? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So Imad says the Americans came to the table with a big offer. If this is true, it's hard to overstate its significance. Today, the White House announced the first deployment of US forces to Syria.

22:58Dozens of special operations troops will be sent... American boots will now be on the ground in Syria. In 2015, American troops officially enter Syria to fight the militant group ISIS. Over the next few years, the group is crushed into an insurgency. But the Americans don't leave. Around 2 ,000 troops remain in Syria, many in strategic areas. US military convoy is helping secure oil fields, not only from ISIS, but from Syria and Russia as well. Keeping the oil, we have the oil, the oil is secure. We left troops behind only for the oil. The troops give the American government influence over vast oil reserves, potentially worth tens of billions of dollars.

23:45Reserves President Assad wants. And Imad Mustafa says he's being told that they might give that up for Austin Tice. This could reshape alliances on the ground and redraw the map of who controls what in Syria, all for one man.

24:05Let me pause my conversation with Imad for a moment. I need to take you back to Roger in Washington DC. Because when you hear Roger and Imad side by side, the truth of what happened in these talks becomes much clearer. him that has said to me that uh it was put on the table that america would withdraw its troops from syrian oil and gas fields for the return of austin tice i've always wanted to say this and i don't think i've ever said it in seven years of doing this work and that is i can neither confirm nor deny that you're not denying it i just i couldn't talk about it even if i wanted to i'm aware there's a limitation on how specific you can be.

24:53But theoretically, that would be a huge offer for Austin. Yeah, it would be. It would be huge vis-a-vis ISIS, the Kurds, the Turks, the Syrians, oil fields. I mean, it would have been huge. Some people will look at that as you are willing to essentially potentially make a concession for one American citizen that would in some ways prop up Assad if that was to go through, and this is a mass murderer. Are you conscious of that disparity between the value of one American life and a concession that might be given that could influence the lives of countless Syrians? Yeah. I mean, obviously, I mean, we really are.

25:34And how do you weigh that? Yeah, gosh, I have so many ways I could answer that. And by the way, there might be ways that I would feel about it personally. But whether I felt that one objective was better than the other, my job at a certain point was to lay out all the objectives and represent Deborah Tice's views as well, to lay everything out there so that the national security advisor and the president could render the best decision that they wanted. And then my job is to execute. I understand Deborah Tice spent a lot of time with her. But there are also, you know, countless Syrian mothers. You're talking about more than 100 ,000 Syrians disappeared in that same situation.