We Keep Us Safe: Pocket’s World

0:00This week on Shorewave, working from home is popular. No commute. Sweatpants. People who do it say it makes them happier. And the data suggests they're probably wrong about that, on average at least. We unpack a new study about the social isolation of remote work and what it means for your health. This week on Shortwave, NPR Science Podcast. Listen daily on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Before we start, a note that this episode contains coarse and explicit language, as well as the sound of gun violence. Previously on We Keep Us Safe We keep us safe We keep us safe Do black lives matter to the SPD?

0:39We didn't kick them out, they abandoned this space CHOP existed for three weeks By the time Antonio Mays Jr. arrived the more dangerous side had prevailed Do not walk around in the dark, it is unsafe The whole space felt darker and angrier Two black teens had been shot One of them was dead It didn't matter. Enough is enough. Enough killing is enough. His name was Antonio Mays Jr. Protesters at CHOP said he was in the white jeep attacking them when he was killed. It's that white car that's been circling around, shooting more shots into tents. Antonio Sr. doesn't know what Antonio was doing during his days at CHOP.

1:19But he doesn't believe the protesters' narrative. He's telling me he's going to make me proud. He was going to accomplish something. I remember him saying something about, like, his friends and not wanting to seem like a pussy or whatever. And I told him, you have to not give a fuck about what other people think about you.

1:46On June 26th, 2020, three days before Antonio Mays Jr. was killed, A small crowd gathers on a street corner in CHOP. Hey, hey, okay, let them talk. Let them talk. We've got a video this moment. Yes, of course we understand that some of these changes will take time. But there are certain things that are on those demands that are immediately actionable. It shows David Lewis, one of the breakout leaders of the protests that summer, talking about the movement's goals. A part of this is proving to Seattle, to the world, really, that we can do these things ourselves. Right next to David, there is a tall kid wearing a black hoodie.

2:25He has a gray baseball cap, and he's wearing a medical mask around his mouth and nose. This kid is Antonio Mays Jr., and he taps David on the shoulder and indicates he wants to speak. I have a question. Are you guys trying to change the system as well? People in this crowd start pointing their phones and their recorders at him as he delivers a critique of policing. I would like to make it known that I wish that the police would have more supervision when it comes to their training. Make sure that they're actually following their training. And what he's saying is training is not enough to make real change.

3:03Because when they're on these streets, they disregard all of it. And that's where the veracity steps in. And I'm tired of this. And at some point, we're going to fight back. But you're pushing us to the edge. And the crowd really responds to this. They start applauding when he speaks.

3:23And for a few seconds, it seems like Antonio is speaking for the entire movement at CHOP.

3:33Our team discovered this video of Antonio by combing through dozens of hours of live streams recorded by Omari Salisbury, the journalist who covered the protests that summer. The Antonio we see on this video really matches the version of him that his dad told us about. This idealistic kid who wrote the letter explaining why he wanted to go join the protests when he left home. And this kid who wanted to make a better world.

4:05But we've also heard Antonio got into a fight the night he died. That he was angry. And later that night, protesters thought he was attacking Chop in a white Jeep. Aside from these brief glimpses, the last week of Antonio's life has been a mystery. People have filled in that missing week, or whatever we don't know about Antonio, with lots of rumors. I've heard accounts. A torrent of speculation. So many theories. They came up repeatedly in interviews. He was always starting fights with people left and right. He had gotten so aggressive. Rumors about his intentions, about his character. I heard a lot of rumors about there being gang involvement.

4:51Gang initiation. Doing donuts and waving guns. Shooting into the sky. Trying to be wild and have fun. Some of them have been used to excuse or justify his killing. On Facebook, right after the shooting, one protester posted, fuck around and find out. And then added, very quickly and cleanly dealt with by security. What a shot, someone else responded. Another said, couldn't have done it better myself.

5:22Watching that video of Antonio, it's hard to reconcile the kid being cheered on by the crowd with the person who'd be shot and killed days later. How did he go from fighting for the cause to being viewed as a threat to the camp. So what happened to Antonio at CHOP? We spent months retracing Antonio's steps because we realized understanding his life leading up to CHOP is key to unlocking what took place the night he died. From NPR's Embedded with KUOW and The Seattle Times, this is We Keep Us Safe. I'm Sydney Brownstone. I'm Will James. This is Episode 4.

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6:49BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2 ,000 Americans and found that 85 % believe getting support is wise, yet 74 % say society discourages people from doing so. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash NPR. This message comes from WISE, the smart way to manage your money around the world. With WISE, you can send, spend, and receive money in over 40 currencies at the mid-market rate. Learn more at WISE.com. T's and C's apply. There's been one interview that has played an outsized role in defining who Antonia was at CHOP.

7:34It's with a homeless protester named Sierra Walker, and it was recorded on a Seattle street just days after the shooting. I'm Antonio and Robert's street sister. Sierra tells a journalist from the Daily Mail that she was part of a street family that included Antonio and his best friend at CHOP, Robert West. Sierra says she spent a lot of time with them. And she calls Antonio by his nickname at CHOP, Pocket. I just want to say it's forever Pocket's world. In this interview, Sierra brings up a rumor. So about CHOP saying that my little brothers was in a gang? That Antonio had a gang affiliation.

8:14We'd heard this same rumor on social media. People were posting online right after the shooting that the boys were doing a gang drive-by, that they were part of the Bloods, and that self-appointed shop security had prevented a mass shooting by firing back. We wanted to learn more about this. So I found Sierra on Facebook in 2025, and I called her up. So Sierra, can you tell me how you met Antonio? There was four young boys that was protesting, and I just got attached to Antonio. She confirmed Antonio arrived in Seattle as a protester. He told me he was just in Seattle protesting because his dad wouldn't let him protest in California.

9:04Sierra is now in her 30s. But from talking to her, it seems like she developed an attachment to Antonio that was almost like they were the same age. You see pocket, you see me. What about him stood out to you? Like how he was a ride or die. He didn't play about who he called family. What does that mean? Like, I got into it with some females and he deaded it. He's like, look, you guys are not going to joke my sister. And he deaded the argument. This is someone who stuck up for her in fights. He didn't want me to get into it with nobody. And not only that, she said that he could pick fights too.

9:48My brother was doing dumb shit, trying to fight with everybody, trying to, he was kind of a bully. I'm not gonna lie. It was kind of weird to hear that from someone who really seems to care about Antonio. It did remind me, though, of the story we heard of Antonio getting into a fight on the night he was killed. I asked Sierra about that night. What do you think of the story that it was just like chop security at the barriers who got scared and shot up the car trying to like defend the tents around the precinct? They don't sit right with me. Like you don't believe it? Nope. So you think it was targeted?

10:31Yeah. Why would someone want to get Antonio? Because the type of person he was. starting fights, trying to be a gang member, and he wasn't. What gang was he trying to join? Blood. How did you find out about that? Because the people that he was kicking it with was blood. Like, he put in work for the streets, I guess. That's what they were saying. That's why he got killed. What is Sierra implying here? Is she saying Antonio was trying to be in a gang or that he was trying to front, like he was trying to act like he was in a gang? You know, I still really don't know, and I'm not sure Sierra knows either.

11:22When she talks about people saying he put in work for the streets, it seems like she's just repeating a rumor she's heard. So what do you make of Sierra? Well, she said something that is definitely not true. She said she knew Antonio for months when in reality she could have only known him for a matter of days because that's how long he was in Seattle. But we have talked to other people who seem to be confused about how long CHOP lasted. Yeah. We got to say, Antonio's dad has told us he's really mad that someone who knew Antonio for just a brief period of time is claiming to be his family and talking like some kind of authority on his son.

12:12The lies that those people up there told about my son, you know, anger me so much. People get hungry for fame and they want some spotlight. They want to try to get whatever kind of shine they can. So they'll make up lies. I'm so proud of my son. And he's none of what any of those people say. That just really makes me boil over the top because to say that you're my family, Come on, man. But I don't want to dismiss everything Sierra is saying out of hand. Police believed that gangs were a big problem at CHOP, and they talked about this in internal emails at the time. On the same day that Antonio was killed, a police intelligence report said CHOP, quote, has become a center of lawlessness, unquote, for gang members.

13:10This report mentions a couple of local Seattle gangs, but not the Bloods.

13:17And there's one more thing Sierra told me, and it's about the Jeep that Antonio and Robert were later shot in. The streets are saying that he beat somebody up and robbed them, and that's how he got the Jeep. She heard the boys ended up inside the white Jeep because they stole it.

13:46from the very beginning we've known that the white jeep antonio and his friend were riding in when they were shot had been stolen the question that's been unresolved for years is were antonio and robert the ones who stole it and if so how did that play into the shooting we tried to talk to the guy whose car was stolen. He declined to speak with us, but through court records, we were able to get our hands on a video of an interview he did with an investigator. So why don't we just start with what happened tonight with regards to the stolen car, wouldn't it? Sure, I'll just give you the story in a minute.

14:22In the video, the victim tells police he was walking home to his apartment around 2.30 in the morning, not long before the shooting happened. As I was walking along, two guys just ran across the street and started accosting me. He says that two teenagers emerge from the park with two weapons, a knife and a pickaxe. And all I hear is like, where the fuck is the money? And they start like shoving me around. And so I hand them my wallet and they grab my phone and they smash it with what looks to be a pickaxe. I managed to run away, but they managed to get me in the leg with the pickaxe. And as they start roughing him up, he says.

15:03Guys, my Jeep is right there. Just take my fucking Jeep. It's parked just like a block away from the park. You know, they would grab my keys in my bag and ran off with it. I fell to the ground. At that point, it's a little bit of a blur. Once his attackers run off, the victim yells for help. And CHOP medics start treating him for his wounds. And so they put a tourniquet on my leg. And while they were doing that, I heard Jeep roll off.

15:32In this interview with police, he says one of his attackers was wearing a mask. They appear to be not white, but not quite black. And he says one of them had an accent. Accents like southern accents? I don't think it was Ethiopian or something like that. Antonio has dark skin, and Robert is lighter skinned, but they're both black. And also, neither of them had Ethiopian accents or anything like an Ethiopian accent. So did he mishear them? Were the boys using fake accents during the robbery? Or was it not them at all?

16:10The most obvious person to ask about all this is Robert West, who was 14 years old when he survived the shooting later that night. But Robert suffered a brain injury in that shooting. And when we first reached out, his lawyer told us he wasn't in any shape to talk with us. But then we finally got our chance to hear from Robert. Last year, after Antonio's dad filed his wrongful death lawsuit against the city of Seattle, an attorney for the city interviewed him. We are on the record. The time is approximately 10.13 a.m. This is the beginning of the deposition of Mr. Robert West. And we got our hands on the video.

16:48Counsel, will you please introduce yourselves? Who are you representing today? My name is Alexander Neekin. I'm representing the city of Seattle. Evan Ocean. I represent Robert West today. In the video, the camera's pointed squarely at Robert. He's about 20 years old now. And you can see the permanent damage left behind by the bullet that he took to the head. Do you have any hobbies? Like working on cars. I wanted to be a mechanic. Are you working to be a mechanic? I mean, I can't no more. My career is done for. I wanted to. It was my biggest dream. Robert struggles with seizures. I mean, if I get too nervous, it's possible I have a seizure.

17:29He says he has significant memory loss and still lives at home with his mother, who helps him with his medical needs. The deposition drags on for almost three hours, and it takes a long time to get to the night of the shooting. Robert's lawyer keeps interrupting to object to the city attorney's questions. He objects almost 200 times. Objection badgering. Objection. Relevance. Objection. Objection. Objection. Harassing. You're harassing my client. I'm harassing you at this point, Mr. Ocean, because you constantly are making the same objections. Let the record reflect that counsel is attempting to harass me.

18:10Before the deposition turns to the shooting, the city attorney asks Robert about his actions in the year before CHOP, whether he had stolen two different cars, whether he was involved in a gas station robbery. I'm instructing him not to answer criminal questions of when he was 13 years old. You have no basis for doing that. He was a minor when he was 13 years old. And are you his guardian, sir? We couldn't find any records to confirm these allegations. But in any case, Robert says he doesn't recall what the city attorney is talking about. I do not remember.

18:52Then the questions turned a chop. When did you meet Antonio Mays? I couldn't tell you, ma 'am. Okay. And how often did you hang out with Antonio Mays? Objection. Vague. From what I remember, I was with that dude every day. Robert says he doesn't remember much from the night of the shooting because of that brain injury. I got shot. It went straight to my face. This is the frontal lobe. It's the most important part of your brain. How would you like me to remember anything? But earlier in his recovery, Robert did seem to remember something. The city attorney refers to a piece of paperwork from a brain rehab facility Robert was at a few years ago.

19:39It says Robert told rehab staff he stole a vehicle with a friend who died. Do you recall telling your doctors that you got shot at after stealing a car with your friends? Objection. Seems fast for us. You want me to tell you? Is that what you're looking for? Do you recall telling that to your doctors? No, ma 'am. I don't recall. Robert says someone else handed him the keys to the white sheep. And he says the man who gave him those keys was Ethiopian. An Ethiopian? Yes, ma 'am. What was the Ethiopian's name? I could not tell you that. How do you know he was Ethiopian? I mean, his appearance, his accent.

20:25But who knows? He could be something else. The city attorney then asks Robert if he looked at what the car theft victim told the police, that one of his muggers had an Ethiopian accent. She seems to be implying that Robert is making his story match the victim's. Did you review the police statement in preparation for your deposition today? No, no. Then just as this interview gets deeper into the night of the shooting... Do you have an answer, Mr. West?

20:59I need some water for that procedure. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta... Hold on. You gotta... You need to... You need to go off the record. Yep. You okay, Robert? I need these. Off the record. And that ends the deposition.

21:26So did Antonio and Robert steal the Jeep? Well, when Antonio Sr.'s wrongful death lawsuit went to trial, we learned a little more. Police presented evidence they found in and around the Jeep the morning after the shooting. This evidence suggested Antonio and Robert may have stolen it. Police found a knife like the one the car theft victim described and some items that were stolen from him. But the judge noted this evidence was inconclusive, and he dismissed it because he didn't see how the car theft was connected to Antonio's death. In the end, the trial never resolved the question of who stole the Jeep.

22:07We weren't able to either. This question of who Antonio was and what he was doing the night he was killed has been used to justify or excuse his death. People have said he was trying to join a gang, that he stole a car, that he was trying to attack people with that car. We wanted to know, was Antonio the type of person who could be a threat to chop, or did protesters have it all wrong? So we went looking for people who knew Antonio before CHOP. He didn't want to be no gangster or nothing like that. He just wanted to be artists. That's after a break.

22:54This message comes from Granger. This is the story of The One. As a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility, he knows keeping the line up and running is a top priority. That's why he chooses Grainger. Because when a drive belt gets damaged, Grainger makes it easy to find the exact specs for the replacement product he needs. And next day delivery helps ensure he'll have everything in place and running like clockwork. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. Hi, it's Terry Gross, host of Fresh Air. Hey, take a break from the 24-hour news cycle with us and listen to long-form interviews with your favorite authors, actors, filmmakers, comedians, and musicians, the people making the art that nourishes us and speaks to our times.

23:42So listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY. You know, every day on Up First, NPR's Golden Globe-nominated morning news podcast, we bring you three essential stories. At the heart of each story are questions. What really happened? What really mattered? What happens next? At NPR, we stand for your right to be curious and to follow the facts. Follow Up First wherever you get your podcasts and start your day knowing what matters and why.

24:13When we first started investigating Antonio's death, we discovered a whole other part of his life that changed our understanding of who he was. We went looking for his digital footprint, And that led us to a profile on this website where people post their original songs. It's called BandLab.

24:39If Pocket was one of Antonio's identities, this website introduced us to another one, Rico, which was the name he went by in BandLab.