In short
Austin Tice, an American journalist and former U.S. Marine, disappeared in Syria in 2012. This episode (BBC/NPR “Embedded” series) follows BBC investigative reporters Josh Baker and Sara Obidat as they investigate whether Tice is alive, including claims of secret documents, power struggles, and a specific alleged prison location. It also covers Deborah Tice’s public campaign and the timing around the Assad regime’s fall in December 2024, when hopes for Tice’s release surge.
Guest backgrounds
Deborah Tice is Austin’s mother and has led a long-running effort to bring him home. Josh Baker is a BBC investigative journalist (BBC Radio 4/NPR “Embedded”). Sara Obidat is a Jordanian investigative journalist who has researched Syria’s prison system. “Salam” is a Syrian defector/intelligence-network source who served in the Syrian army for ~19 years, defected in 2011, and claims sources inside Assad’s security services.
Key claims
A vetted source says Austin Tice is alive and treated well; a reported hunger-strike-related doctor visit occurred about eight months before the episode. Salam claims Austin may be held at “Branch 235 Palestine branch” and provides GPS coordinates to possible holding sites.
Notable examples
Deborah’s 12th-anniversary event at the National Press Club; her statement that she has “new evidence” without details; U.S. President Biden saying he believes Tice can be brought home but that there’s no direct evidence yet; the team’s post-regime travel into Damascus and receipt of a purple folder listing GPS coordinates.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOInvestigative Pursuit in Syria
1:20 to 3:54
Journalists Josh Baker and Sara Obidat search for answers about Austin Tice in a Syrian intelligence facility.
“We're literally racing from room to room.”
Deborah Tice's Fight for Her Son
3:54 to 7:41
Deborah Tice reflects on her son's disappearance and her ongoing quest for answers and justice.
“Let me just step back a few months, to the 14th of August 2024, the first time I met Austin's mother.”
The Journalist's Commitment
7:41 to 13:13
An investigative journalist shares their motivation to uncover the truth behind Austin Tice's case.
“whose expression seems caught between gratitude for those who've come to honour her son and the quiet, unrelenting weight of his absence.”
The Journalist's Commitment
13:20 to 14:19
An investigative journalist shares their motivation to uncover the truth behind Austin Tice's case.
“It's hosted by Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Colin Martin, head of fixed income research and strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research.”
Investigating Austin Tice's Case
14:50 to 20:10
Sara Obidat and the narrator investigate Austin Tice's mysterious disappearance.
“I feel like we're walking through a postcard.”
The Chaos in Syria
20:10 to 26:50
The narrative shifts to the chaos in Syria following the regime's fall and the implications for Austin Tice.
“I'm Josh Baker, and from BBC Radio 4 and NPR's Embedded, This is Where Is Austin Tice?”
Crossing into Syria
26:50 to 28:01
The narrator and Sara prepare to enter Syria amidst its current state.
“But in the same breath, he seems to suggest there's no proof Austin is alive, contradicting what Deborah told the press.”
Entering a Transformed Syria
28:01 to 30:58
Discover the dramatic changes and fears of entering post-revolution Syria.
“I feel like you're discounting a lot of places we work together.”
A Critical Lead on Austin Tice
30:59 to 33:19
Uncover details about the search for journalist Austin Tice and the urgent lead provided.
“But this kind of gave me a little bit of trepidation.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This message comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast On Investing. Each week you'll get thoughtful, in-depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe at schwab.com slash oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Kelly McEvers and this is Embedded from NPR. Today we're starting a new series. It's a partnership with the BBC. 14 years ago, an American journalist named Austin Tice disappeared in Syria. I was one of the many people who were reporting in Syria at the time, and I will never forget it. By now, it has become one of the biggest missing person cases of our time.
0:43Austin's mother, Deborah Tice, has never stopped looking for him. World leaders have called for his release, but still very little is known about what actually happened to him. For the past few years, BBC investigative journalists Josh Baker and Sara Obidat have followed Austin's trail. What they have uncovered is a story about power struggles, secret documents, and people who do not want the story to be told. Many of the discoveries in this investigation have never been made public before. And just so you know, we have been checking in with Austin's family as we have reported it. Okay, here's Josh and Sara.
1:33Josh Baker:We're literally racing from room to room. We're going up another floor. Each room has kind of been ransacked. He's saying we need to look here. We just need to sweep this. Somebody tried to burn this and it didn't burn. I don't have a significant. Something about Lebanese intelligence. Just kidding. It's December 2024. I'm moving down the dark, narrow, windowless corridor of a Syrian intelligence facility with my colleague Sara. This is one of the most notorious and secretive buildings in Syria. And it's where we've come to get answers. I'm in Arab. that's been set on fire. It's so precarious.
2:30This has the Russian detainee, the German courts, confessions, the death of number 1002. I guess that's a permanent number.
2:43Josh Baker:We're searching for information about Austin Tice. He's an American journalist who disappeared in Syria more than a decade ago. Today, he's one of the most high-profile missing person cases in the world. If I lift this up, can you look underneath?
3:09Nothing here.
3:13Josh Baker:And this end? Oh, my God. Oh my god. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Let me go quickly and try. You try. Yeah, keep looking. The keys we've just found might unlock a safe that we've been told contains answers about what happened to Austin Tice. Now, I need to see if these are the right keys. Oh, that's amazing. One more now. Yes, this is it. Okay, hold on.
4:00Josh Baker:Let me just step back a few months, to the 14th of August 2024, the first time I met Austin's mother. I need 13, please. Thank you. Do you get nervous? No, I did persuasive speaking when I was in middle school. It was definitely good for mothering. You ready to go? Yeah. Hey, Debra. Hey! I'm so glad you're here. I thank you. Happy to be here. Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate it. This is Debra Tice. Today marks the 12th anniversary of Austin's disappearance. and following her down a corridor at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. We pass by a large poster of Austin. He's broad-shouldered, handsome, with thick, dark hair and a chiseled jaw.
4:56Josh Baker:Then we enter a grand ballroom. Everyone, we're about to get started. If you want to start getting to your seats, today we recognise a major and sobering step in the long journey home for Austin Tice. Twelve years ago today, Austin was taken in Syria, where he was working as a journalist. We are joining together with Austin's friends and his family in urging the US government to bring Austin home. This is no ordinary gathering. There are FBI agents, members of the intelligence community, and government officials. Because for more than a decade, Every American president has paid attention to Austin's case.
5:45Josh Baker:On a big screen, recorded messages start to play. There's the head of McClatchy, one of the news organisations that Austin worked for. Today marks yet another year without Austin Tice, an American journalist and veteran US Marine who has been missing in Syria for over a decade. He's followed by Donald Trump's former national security adviser. Austin was the type of man that every dad wants her son to grow up to be like. A US Marine, a photojournalist in combat zones, a Georgetown law student, a great son and a terrific brother. And then his mother Deborah is introduced. She has this long, striking silver hair and warm, gentle smile.
6:29Josh Baker:She's petite and quietly spoken, but exudes a strength that comes from years of refusing to give up on her son. She's a badass. She's a woman of faith. I know she's a huge inspiration to me and a huge inspiration to many. If we can welcome to the stage, Deborah Tice.
6:51Right now, I just want to speak to Austin publicly. Stay strong, Austin. Keep the faith. We have many good people working for you and praying for your release. You will walk free again. I love you. You hang in there.
7:17Josh Baker:The people here see Austin as an American hero who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, who put his life on the line to report on the civil war in Syria. As the applause dies down, I look around. Faces are still, eyes fixed on nothing. a thousand-yard stare shared by many, not least of all Deborah, whose expression seems caught between gratitude for those who've come to honour her son and the quiet, unrelenting weight of his absence.
7:56The next day, I meet back up with Deborah
7:59Josh Baker:at the National Press Club. She walks over to a grand wooden cabinet. It's got some of Austin's possessions on display. They have these shoes in it. His Converse All-Stars. That's all he ever wore. If you look really closely... Yeah, that's his reporter's name. Under his name, under his name, Austin Tice, where it says, if found, please contact, there's a phone number. Oh, that's your home phone number? And every now and then, someone noticed it and they would dare to call. And they would say, are you really his mother? I'm like, I'm really his mother. He wanted to be a journalist, international reporter for NPR.
8:45That was his dream. And then when he turned 18, he really was like, if I'm going to go to college, I'm going to Georgetown. And then he called them and said, well, if you don't accept me this semester, I'm going to apply again next semester. and if you don't accept me, I'm going to apply in the semester after that and I'm not going to any other college. I really think he only got in so that they could use their own phone occasionally.
9:12Josh Baker:So he's a pretty determined guy then. He has a pretty strong will, I would say. Deborah glances at the cabinet. A soft smile emerges on her face. It makes me wonder if for a moment she feels near Austin again. When was the last time you heard from Austin? In 2012. On his birthday, August 11th, we had the best FaceTime. He must have already been in Damascus when we had that call. Austin had taken a break from his studies at Georgetown, one of the top law schools in the country. He wanted to pursue a dream of becoming a war correspondent. So he spends his summer reporting in Syria. And on his 31st birthday, he calls home to speak to Deborah.
10:07Josh Baker:After the call, Deborah leaves for a camping trip with friends and she has no phone signal. So when she emerges a week later, she calls her husband Mark to check in. Mark said, I need to talk to you. Go somewhere that you'll feel strong and that's quiet. So I found a place and I called him back and I said, so what is it? And he says, well, Austin is missing. And he's been missing for almost a week. What was going on in your head? What do we do and how do we navigate this? and then I was in the car and then I heard Austin's interview aired. There's a very real security concern. You know, the Syrian government is notorious for exerting pressure on people by going after their families in really quite violent and atrocious ways.
11:07Josh Baker:So just so I understand, you've just been told your son is missing and then he comes on the radio. Yeah, we're all listening to that and kind of, I mean, talk about dystopia.
11:23I haven't seen my son since 2012. That's the last time I hugged him. I know that my son is somewhere alive.
11:36Josh Baker:Since the day Austin vanished in war-torn Syria, it's been Deborah's mission to get him home. And that means making sure he's not forgotten. And joining me now is Deborah Theiss. With me now is Deborah Theiss. That's his mom, Deborah Theiss. His mother, Deborah Theiss, joins us now. Deborah's campaign has been so effective. She's attracted the attention of everyone, from popes to presidents. We are not CeCe, our effort to get him. Leave no stone unturned in finding Austin and bringing him home. He's disappeared off the face of the earth.
12:13Josh Baker:Despite all the resources and political power of the American government, nobody has been able to work out what really happened to Austin Tice. I started looking into Austin's case after I saw his mother Deborah on TV. She was making this heartfelt plea for his return and she looked exhausted. It made me think about my own mom and how she'd feel if I disappeared. So I started digging. I'm an investigative journalist who's spent almost a decade working in Syria. I've also worked to help evacuate people from conflict zones when they're in danger. And I have some experience looking for missing people.
13:02So I opened my contact book and spoke to everyone from senior officials
13:07Josh Baker:to people gathering information on the ground inside Syria. And eventually, I get a meeting with someone who might be able to help. This message comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on investing. It's hosted by Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Colin Martin, head of fixed income research and strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research. Each week, Lizanne, Colin, and their guests analyze economic developments and bring context to conversations around stocks, fixed income, the economy, and more. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com slash oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.
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14:50Josh Baker:I feel like we're walking through a postcard. Little fences, pretty flowers, great English. Yeah, it's adorable. Can you tell that I have a cold? I mean, the voice is a little bit huskier than normal. It's all right. It's a strong look. Yeah. Makes you edgy. Edgiest girl in the English countryside. It's the late summer of 2024. This is Sara Obidat. She's a Jordanian investigative journalist. We're good friends and we've worked together for a long time. And she just happens to have spent years researching the Syrian prison system. So I've asked for her help in looking into Austin's case. Together, we've come to a small village in southern England to meet a Syrian contact.
15:44Hello. Hello.
15:46Josh Baker:How are you? Hi. How are you? Good to see you. This is Salam. He's smartly dressed with thick, dark hair, and he has this restless energy. He's asked us not to use his full name because the work he does carries real risks. If he's identified, it could put him and others in danger. When were you in Syria? It was January 2013 when I left Syria. I served in the Syrian army for around 19 years. During the revolution, I defected from the army. In 2011, protests had swept across North Africa and the Middle East. Dictators fell in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya. people wanted their freedom and demanded fairer societies.
16:36Josh Baker:When the movement reached Syria, President Bashar al-Assad responded with mass imprisonment and murder, plunging the country into civil war. That's what drove Salam to defect from the Syrian army and join rebel fighters. He went on to build a network that gathers intelligence on the Syrian regime. He even has sources inside Assad's security services. And for years, he's been searching for Austin Tice. I suppose there's this big question at the moment. So Austin has now been missing for 12 years. Some people believe he's alive. Others think that there's no way he could possibly survive this long.
17:25It's not going to be surprising that he's still alive after 12 years. And the Assad security regime, they are smart enough to know that he's a golden egg. They are very aware of how much the Western community cares about their citizens and how big pressure they can put on the Western governments. The instructions will be to keep him alive, to protect him, to treat him better than other prisoners. I've been told that around eight months ago, an American journalist, he looks like Austin, A doctor visited him because he was on a hunger strike.
18:01Josh Baker:Hold on, you heard that Austin might be alive eight months ago. That's what I heard. That's what I heard. They think that he was in a very good situation, like treated differently from the other prisoners and not in the normal prisons. So if this is true, that would be the most recent time someone has seen him alive. Can you walk me through where he might be? So he was moved to branch 235 Palestine branch, known as Palestine branch. So Salam has information that Austin might be alive and even a location where he could be held. An intelligence base known as 235 Palestine branch. But we can't get inside Syria, so it's hard to verify if this is true.
18:54Josh Baker:Hearing this made me determined to get to the truth. Because there are many stories about Austin Tice. In some, he's held in a cell, waiting to be rescued. In others, he was smuggled out of Syria and hidden away. And in the most tragic, he died long ago. But the truth is, this isn't just a missing person story. Austin's fate has become entangled in a world of covert talk, secret deals and power struggles that are still playing out. All while his mother Deborah is left searching for answers. Following Austin's trail has taken me from the corridors of power in Washington DC to the depths of Syria's most secret intelligence facilities.
19:43Josh Baker:Along the way, I've spoken to spies, tracked down war criminals and uncovered evidence that has never been made public. And I've learnt that there are people who know what happened to Austin Tice. And some of them don't want the truth to come out. So, what really happened to Austin Tice? I'm Josh Baker, and from BBC Radio 4 and NPR's Embedded, This is Where Is Austin Tice? Series 3 of I'm Not a Monster Presents Episode 1 We Believe He's Alive
20:44obsessing over and shoes that make you feel like you head to a dsw store or dsw.com today for shoes that get you at prices that get your budget dsw let us surprise you this week on wait wait don't tell me we talk with our panel joyelle nicole johnson peter gross and kig notaro about the new trade war with canada i can't imagine maple syrup being any more expensive like it costs as much as a car. It's true. What kind of car are you buying? Don't miss our full conversation and the rest of our games. Listen to the Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
21:22Billionaire Mark Cuban has stared into the belly of the beast of America's health care system. I mean, it's so bad you can go through a long list of really quality hospitals and they don't know their costs. So can Medicare for All be a solution? we take a hard look at the cost of the program along with U.S. healthcare itself.
21:40Josh Baker:Find this and hear more stories from the indicator from Planet Money on the NPR app.
21:55Hi, how are you?
21:58Josh Baker:I'm very tired. I'm sure you're feeling the same. I've just been looking at everything. I can't quite actually believe it, to be honest with you. Yeah, it was very hard to sleep, to be honest. And it's kind of surreal. It's the middle of a cold December night in 2024. It's been a few months since I was at the anniversary of Austin's disappearance in Washington, D.C. Now, I'm on the phone with Sarah. We've been glued to our screens all night. People don't know what's going to happen yet. I haven't been able to get in contact with Deborah. but I imagine she's going through every motion on the planet right now.
22:40Yeah, yeah. It must be so hard for her. Rebel forces have launched an offensive in northwestern Syria taking territory from government forces for the first time in years. This hour, the second biggest city in Syria is now in the hands of rebels for the first time since the war began a decade ago.
Read the full transcript
22:58Josh Baker:In Syria, rebel fighters are seizing government strongholds. They're taking city after city. Nobody saw this coming. Not even the country's president, Bashar al-Assad. He's losing his grip on power. Another significant gain driving government forces from the city of Hama. Rebels taking the city and freeing hundreds of those that they say were wrongfully detained in the central prison. It's the second major city the rebels have seized in their lightning offensive. As the rebels advance, prison doors are being forced open and people are walking free. There's hope that Austin will be one of them.
23:41Josh Baker:While this is unfolding, Deborah Tice brings her family together in Washington, D.C. Austin's six siblings are there, his father Mark and even his young niece. They stand on a stage looking out to a room full of reporters. Each of them is wearing a green T-shirt with Austin's face printed on it. Then there are the messages, simple and personal. Free my brother. Free my uncle. Deborah's T-shirt says, free my son. Today is a day full of emotions. the news that we're hearing from the Middle East is the kind of thing can unsettle a mom. And I'm just so very glad that you're here. I'm so very glad that you're interested.
24:36You know, there are all kinds of ways this could go, but the best thing that we want to share with you is that we have from a significant source that has already been vetted all over our government Austin Types is alive, Austin type is treated well. And there is no doubt about that. And I would sincerely appreciate your most faithful prayers that we will see Austin walk free. And I just thank you so much.
25:12Josh Baker:Deborah steps away from the podium with tears in her eyes. She says she has new evidence that Austin is alive although she doesn't explain what that evidence is. As Syria descends into chaos all she can do is wait for information about her son. Then rebels achieve what many felt was impossible. This is CNN breaking news. Breaking news coming out of Syria. Rebels appear to have entered the capital. Statues toppling. People jumping on top of them. as Assad's opponents declare that his regime is over. The country's now former leader, Bashar al-Assad, believed to have escaped to Russia. President Biden is getting ready to speak any moment now, we're told, from the White House on the fall of the Bashar al-Assad regime in Syria.
26:06Oh, we see the president right now. We're going to go to the White House. At long last, the Assad regime has fallen. This regime brutalized and tortured and killed literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Syrians. We are mindful that there are Americans in Syria, including those who reside there, as well as Austin Tice, who was taken captive more than 12 years ago. We remain committed to returning him to his family. What does the U.S. know about where Austin Tice might be and if he's safe? We believe he's alive. We think we can get him back, but we have no direct evidence for that yet.
26:48Josh Baker:The President of the United States thinks he can bring Austin home. But in the same breath, he seems to suggest there's no proof Austin is alive, contradicting what Deborah told the press. It's hard to know what information about Austin is based on fact and what's based on hope. Whatever the case, the answers are in Syria.
27:25Josh Baker:How long do you think to the border? Like two hours maybe? Hour and a half? I think like another hour. Just 48 hours after the fall of the regime, Syria is in chaos. airports have been abandoned, so the only way in is by road from neighbouring Lebanon. And that's where I meet up with Sarah. How's your shawarma? It's delicious. Really? Yeah. It didn't hit the spot for me. I mean, let's wait till you get to Damascus. Sorry, Lebanon. But it's true. Syria does the best show we want. I feel like you're discounting a lot of places we work together. As an Arab. Okay, you're playing that card. No, no, I'm admitting, as a non-Syrian, I am admitting that Syrians make the best show ever.
28:15Welcome. Just enjoy the beautiful traffic.
28:24Josh Baker:Several hours later, we finally make it to the border of Syria. 13, almost 14 years ago, this place started its revolution. Yeah. Look at this on your right. Welcome to Syria. Oh look, there's still a picture of Assad. See, one side is ripped up. Yeah. There's a checkpoint I think. Look, Assad. But it's abandoned. And it's got a smashed out window. Wow, there's an old Syrian tank right there. All of the old checkpoints have been smashed up. You notice there are no street lamps. They're not lit throughout the entire highway. As I look out into the darkness from our minivan, the aftermath of fighting is everywhere.
29:20Josh Baker:A little fear creeps in. This is now a lawless country. There's no government, no police. And we don't know who controls the road we're on. Then a man steps into the beam of our headlights. He's carrying a gun. Watching some fighters, I guess, search cars in front of me.
29:49Josh Baker:I hide my microphone and look carefully around the vehicle. Flickers of light catch the edge of rifles. There are several men, some with faces covered, all armed. Every glance from them feels like a calculation. They approach our minivan. As they shine their lights on my face, their gaze softens.
30:26Josh Baker:The men are part of the group that has just toppled Syrian president Assad. This is crazy. It's essentially not even, I mean, is anyone keeping track of entry into the country? Seamless. I've never entered this country so quickly. I've never entered any country so quickly. No one knows that I'm here. No one's checked my passport. Welcome to the new Syria. But this kind of gave me a little bit of trepidation. Things are still very new.
31:19Josh Baker:An hour later, we're in Damascus. Here we are, OK. We're near the hotel. Despite the chaos and the lack of an actual government, hotels are thankfully still operating.
31:39Josh Baker:I unzip my bag and feel for a folder, triple-checking it's still hidden where I left it. So much of my reporting has been about national security and intelligence. And before I came to Damascus, a source of mine with intimate knowledge of Austin's case reached out. I'd spent months gaining their trust, and now they had something to give me, something important. I can't say what country this happened in in order to protect their identity, but we met outside a coffee shop, and they handed me a purple folder, which came with a simple request. Find Austin. Now that we have a moment to catch our breath, I take the folder to Sara's hotel room.
32:34Hi.
32:35Josh Baker:Can I come in? Yep. You're gonna want to look at this. So I met with somebody. And here are a list with GPS coordinates. of every location that Austin is possibly known to have been held at. Whoa. This is insane.
33:04Josh Baker:For years, Western intelligence agencies have been identifying sites where Austin might be held. But they couldn't go to them because they were tightly guarded by Syrian forces. Now that the regime is gone, we can search them. If Austin's being held in a Syrian prison, this might be the best chance in more than a decade that anyone has had to find him.
33:41Josh Baker:You've been listening to Where Is Austin Tice? Series 3 of I'm Not A Monster presents. please share, rate and review the show it really does help if you have any information on Austin Tice you can email me directly on josh at bbc.co.uk or message me on social media at joshbakerstory the series is written and showrun by me Josh Baker the investigative producer is Sarah Obidat The series producer is Simon Maben. Field producing by Uday Al-Hussein. Additional producing by Lucy Burns. Open source intelligence by Thomas Bordeaux and Gabor Friesen. Our production coordinator is Gemma Ashman. The series editor is Claire Fordham.
34:35Josh Baker:The head of BBC News Long Form Audio is Emma Rippon. And at BBC Radio 4, the commissioning editor is Dan Clark. At NPR, our producer is Monica Evstavtieva. Editors are Robert Little and Katie Simon. The composer is Firas Abufeka. Additional music by Karim Shahouri. Theme music by Sam Slater. And it was mixed by Tom Brignall. Fact-checking by Nicolette Khan and Mary Gland-Inning. Our managing editor of Standards and Practices is Tony Cavett. Editorial review is by Christian Munro. Johannes Dergi provided legal support. The showrunner and senior supervising editor of Embedded is Katie Simon. Liana Simstrom is a senior supervising producer.
35:29Josh Baker:Irene Noguchi is executive producer. Yolanda Sanguene is NPR's vice president for content. And Tommy Evans is NPR's editor-in-chief. And a big thanks to our NPR Plus supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long-form journalism at NPR. And NPR Plus help keeps that work going. If you'd like to email the show, you can reach out at embedded at npr.org.
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