Uber's electric bet on electric vehicles: What does the rise of EVs and autonomous vehicles mean for the future of mobility?

28:30And that also details a little bit about our recent announcements, you know, where in the Bay Area, in Dallas, etc., we have indeed taken control of our own sites to ensure we're ready for AVs. Right. So is that, from what you're saying, then, is that kind of a new thing that that is going to be what happens as AV adoption grows and you build out your network here is what you will actually be acquiring and owning your own sites, releasing your own sites, whatever it is, and having your own as you say you talked about two types of facilities so you have a you have a depot and you have a pit stop and what the pit stop is for the quick charge up and the depot is for as you say kind of turn over are those are those going to be um centrally located in cities typically or do you kind of put them on the outskirts and then drive you know and also i mean very basic question when do the vehicles go to these places then do they have an automatic trigger that says, oh, I'm down to 25 % charge, I better go to the pit stop now?

29:29Or do you need a human intervention to kind of look at the indicator and say, oh, hang on, this one is running low, it needs to go back in charge? How does all that work? Yeah, so many questions, Ed, one by one. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, no, all good, all good questions. So I think, you know, in your question about location, so think about the depot being in the more industrial area of town, right? Think about maybe 15, 20 miles away, or sorry, 15, 20 minutes away, you know, mileage can depend based on the city. Think about larger warehouses where we have higher ceilings, where we have maintenance lifts and so on.

30:08And what's very important there is a zoning, right? So we need zoning and we need high power, which usually means it's a bit further away. And that's where we do our time-based inspections. So the cars go back for any monthly inspections, that's where if you get into a fender bender, that's where the car is fixed. Right. So think about that as a depot. Think about it as a large warehouse. Pit stop, think about maybe in an open-air parking lot, very close to the lot. Right. So open-air parking lot, which we re-stripe, we put in, depending on the site size, anywhere from, let's say, 10 to 30 chargers.

30:41There's a lot of Wi-Fi. Right. All these cars need a lot of Wi-Fi infrastructure to make sure data is uploaded and offloaded. So that's a huge part and obviously security and so on. So that will be in the city center. And so the way to think about network design is we could have maybe one depot, which takes care of maintenance. And we could have a distributed set of pit stops, which is close to demand to reduce dead end miles. So that's like the general archetype we go after. And then at the second part of your question is how does all of it work? Depending on the partner, it's different. So, for example, if I take the Middle East to take a non-U.S.

31:18lens, Uber decides and Uber works with our tech partners such as WeRide, Baidu and so on to figure out when the car needs to be dispatched back to the depot. The lion's share of cases is charging related. Like you charge, you go to a pit stop, you go to the depot. However, there might be instances where, let's say, Ed was riding and he forgot his phone in the car. If Ed forgets his phone in the car, we will manually say, listen, car, there's a valuable device left behind. Come back to the depot so that we can secure it. We keep it so Ed can get his phone back. So it varies, but for the most part, coming back is largely charging related.

31:58And I'm afraid I have to confess that's not actually a hypothetical example. That is exactly something I have done in a looper in my time. So yeah, it's good to know there's a procedure for dealing with that. Got it. So something else then I wanted to ask then is given, as you say, the way you're now looking at putting this infrastructure in, both for the AVs and for the human-driven vehicles, how much of a constraint is it on you to get a grid connection and to find available power? I mean, just thinking about this. Oh man, I was thinking I was going to ask that question. So you took it right off Well, I'm sorry, but yeah, I mean, it is the obvious question.

32:37right? Because, I mean, just doing the math, right? So, I mean, a fast charger can be, what, up to 100 kilowatts or so, can it? I mean, it's kind of 30, 50, 100. So, if you're getting that much power through, as you say, you've got at one of your pit stops 10 to 30 vehicles maybe charging at one time. So, that's, you know, a megawatt to three megawatts on just that one location and try to proliferate those all over a city that seems feels like something that's going to be a very significant new challenge for the grid to manage and so we talked endlessly on this show about data centers and the issues that they create now the question is maybe you can't put your depot near a data center and exactly maybe yeah so and i guess maybe and we'll come on to that point in a moment i mean there's much smaller i mean the scale is much well yeah but then when you add them up, right?

33:31If you aggregate them, even if, you know, each individual one is much smaller than a data center, if you get enough of them, and if these vehicles, EVs and AVEVs really catch on, then it's not smaller, actually. It does, you know, it becomes certainly material. It's hard to get distribution line hookup as it is to do, you know, larger transmission lines. So you still have the problem of a distribution line and transformers. Is there a big enough transformer in that area. So, yeah, we're all ears. Yeah, so it's definitely a problem and it's something that's top of mind for us, right? So to add to your point, like many of these sites are three, four, five megawatts, and some of our sites were asking for even more, right?

34:15Like upwards of eight megawatts. And it does take time. So a lot of our time is actually spent working and developing close relationships with utilities all over the world, right? We're working hand-in-hand with these utilities to make sure that they are planning appropriately. And whenever we go through a site review, we're working hand-in-hand with them to make sure that, can we actually get the power we need? Because if we don't get the power, the site is somewhat rendered useless, at least from an EV standpoint. From an EV standpoint, we can use lower power sources. So that's a huge part and huge focus of the team.

34:49The other thing we're doing, by the way, is also working with the OEMs. We're trying to figure out how do we work with the OEMs to figure out charging throughput. Can we charge at 200 kilowatt per hour? And then will that mean faster throughput? Will that mean less charges per vehicles? Like the charge-to-vehicle ratio can go down. So we're also doing a bunch of work directly with the manufacturers to think about their battery competition, to think about how do we optimize vehicle performance there. So we're doing both those things. and then Amy, to your point, there are a few sites where, let's say when we started, we have about one to two megawatts, but then we've put in requests for additional power and that means adding transformers.

35:31And so we've had a few sites already where we had to add new transformers put in the site just to make sure that we're getting the energy that we require. And I will say that, in credit to all the utilities, they've been incredible, right? They've been fantastic partners. I think on their end, they're also seeing the change, right? They're seeing the advent or the oncoming of AVs. And they're just trying to manage all the requests that we have, along with all the data sent requests, right? Because it's many times like the same tech company is asking for more. Right. So, okay, because you've answered the question that I was just about to ask, but I just want to get to ask it anyway, which is you talk about the utilities being great partners.

36:14I have to say, this is my kind of journey on this one, is when I first heard about EVs really growing, I thought, wow, this is going to be fantastic for the utilities. I thought all the power companies will love this. This is a great new customer base for them. They're going to replace the oil companies and the gas stations as the new suppliers of transport fuel. It's going to be wonderful. Then they're going to embrace this with both hands. Turns out that's not always the case, right? And actually, very often, additional demand is a headache and a pain for utilities. It's another challenge, something that's difficult for them to manage.

36:50And so I was going to ask whether you do, in fact, get a kind of a welcoming and constructive response from those companies, or whether you find them trying to put barriers in your way and to kind of obstruct you and say, no, this can't be done. It's too difficult for the grid. Sorry, Amy, what's your question on this? So I'm going to leap in here because if I'm a data center and I'm talking about 24-7, then I'm really a burden, right? But if I'm some little group that might want to charge at noon when I have a surplus of solar energy or at night when I have a surplus, if I'm in Texas, a surplus of wind energy, you might actually be interesting to me.

37:31especially if you'd start making your algorithm come only at times that are not peak demand times then i might love you to death right so uh so i don't know like are you guys very time a day with these utilities or or they're not sophisticated enough time a day to have that conversation with you yeah i think i think two responses i think i think one add to your first question i think i I think it has been more welcoming than confrontational is the short answer. I think there have been some raised eyebrows. And what I mean by that is we're asking for what the equivalent of 4 ,000 or 5 ,000 households worth of power on one small square parking lot, right?

38:12So it does lead to like, what are you guys doing? Why are you asking for so much? But I think once we tell them, I think there's strong appreciation and they understand. And again, we're also giving them plenty of lead time, right? One of the reasons we're starting now at this small scale is we didn't want to go and make unreasonable asks. We're doing it very much in partnership with them, which I think is well respected and well appreciated. So they have the adequate time. They can ask all the questions. We can go through all the processes the right way. So I think that there's mutual appreciation on that.

38:44And then Amy, to your question, I think if I think about the human driven and Andrew should chime in here, then we can do things like slow charging overnight. Then we can do things like between shifts the car can charge. On AVs, however, we are running the entire time. So it is quite steady. Similar to data center, it is quite steady. So if I give you a well-utilized public charging site and a really well-utilized public charging site, you will see maybe 20 % to 25 % utilization. In our AV sites, you're seeing upwards of 65 % every day. right if anything my current headache is we're getting congestion at the depots because there's not enough open chargers for the cars to charge when they come back so that's a bigger problem right now so maybe you know piggybacking off of what samarth said i think you know when we're self-performing timelines or everything and coordination with utilities is key when we're partnering with existing public charging companies what's more important is actually the financial commitment and the confidence that they can go spend a lot of money to build these urban locations.

39:55To use some Earth's point, I mean, if we're building, you know, three, four, five megawatts, these charging companies historically have been reticent to put that type of capital in the ground without having some backstop or essentially, you know, mitigation to merchant risk. And what we're doing and we're changing the dynamic in terms of how to actually gain confidence in building this type of asset class is we're coming in and providing that guarantee and that confidence. That's one on the cost component. Amy, to answer your question on time of use, the answer is yes. We are working very closely with our charging company partners, namely around providing very sophisticated time of use pricing, because exactly back to what we discussed before, our drivers are very price sensitive.

40:41So if we can influence when they charge throughout the day to help change the tariff or demand or cost profile of our charging partners by providing discounted or different rate structures, we will do so. And we're seeing meaningful change in behavior when we do it. But what you're saying, to make sure I'm understanding, what you're saying is on the AV side, you're like a mini data center in the sense that you want 24-7 for the AVs on these depots. For the moment, yes. I think as time goes on, as we have more capacity, I think then we can start getting into time of day and optimizing. I think right now, we need as much capacity as we can to make sure that we actually have enough charging for the cars.

41:29In a future state, I think we'll get into that and we'll get to the point where Andrew is, where we've optimized it for time of day and everything. So I'm the one who always takes us to science fiction, right? So and I've had other people tell me this will never happen. But Samarth, I have you right here in front of me. So I have to ask, like, could you imagine a time when is it that you make so much money optimizing this expensive vehicle on having a human being sitting in it that you'd never take 100 of them or 1000 of them or 10 ,000 of them and plug it in somewhere to help with a grid flex alert problem?

42:03I mean, can you foresee a time when the batteries and all these AVs could be a flex alert? A VPP, basically. I mean, that's what we're talking about. A VPP, yeah. Yeah, like an asset, like an electricity asset. Short answer is yes. I think, are we close to that? No, but eventually, do we see that happening? Absolutely. Right? In a world where we have thousands, you know, we definitely could make this work. And would it be something that you would, like, since we've all been talking about emergencies, right is it something that would just be like a community service that uber could provide we're bringing a bunch of avs over to a hospital to make sure that they have electricity in a in a flex alert crisis right or after a storm or something like that um or do you think there'd ever be a time when the amount of money you could make by having them sell back the electricity in their battery could be higher than the money you make having to move around interesting questions a few thoughts.

43:02I think one thing that Andrew and I have spoken about is, is there a world where we get to the scale and optimization where having control of infrastructure basically exposes us to a new asset class where we can basically give back to the grid? And does the value of that land become a lot bigger because of that capability? So that is something we're thinking about. Again, this is a few years, if not decades down the line. In your point, in emergencies, I think the thing that I keep in mind is, you know, in emergencies, we have to be very careful about autonomy capability, right? We want to make sure that we aren't coming in the way of first responders.

43:41We want to make sure that the AVs actually has the actual ability to maneuver past, you know, police over whatever it might be, right? So I think, again, even the point, even the AV capability set, I think we'll have to go a few ways before your situation, you know, comes to life. And then I think the third thing in terms of whether we can make more money, I don't know is the honest answer. I think we have enough questions to figure out, can we make money in a normal cost of situations? Yeah, just do the regular business. Yeah, just do the regular business. So I hope so, but I don't know. Well, I'll chime in and maybe contribute one or two things, because I think this is both an AV, but also a hybrid conversation, right?

44:20So if we're thinking about what the fleet looks like over the next five to 10 years, it will always be hybrid. It's what Dara has said consistently. And I think what is underpinning our charging strategy on both sides, AV and human, is our insights and data and our ability to essentially orchestrate demand. So Amy, I think it actually goes both ways. One of our core goals as an organization is to continue to provide multiple opportunities for our earners to earn, meaning that there could be opportunities for the human drivers as well in the future to do something else. And if that is to plug in their car to earn some money, I think we'll have to figure out whether or not, to Samarith's point, you know, the math maths, and it makes more sense to plug in versus go pick up a driver.

45:03I think that's still a long way out to figure out. But to play into your sci-fi scenario, we are working on the core competencies to have that type of discussion productively. And what about being a power supplier yourself? Is that something, I mean, would you put your own solar panels in these depots, have stationary storage, build a little gas-fired plant? You know, there's obviously a lot of things you could do. And if you look again over at the data center world, all the things that those companies are thinking about very actively at the moment because of their challenges in getting a grid connection, they're being pushed.

45:42Probably actually having a grid connection is the optimal solution for them. But because they're finding it hard to get connected on the timetables, they want to get connected. They're looking at bringing their own generation. Is that something do you think you might get pushed towards as well? So short answer is yes. I think you'll see a lot of similarities between what the data collect companies have gone through and what we will go through. I think particularly given the long lead times on getting these two, three megawatts that we are using on a temporary basis, liquid natural gas, just to make sure for the first six months while we have the connection to come through.

46:20Our goal is to make sure it's grid tied, It's clean energy, but we will be taking steps in the interim just to close those gaps. But again, we work very closely with the utility and our tech partners to make sure that if we're doing shorter measures like that, we're appropriately buying the credits or anything else we need to do to make sure we're offsetting those emissions to make sure they get in the right way. Right. But as you say, then, that's a very straight analogy with what's often happening with data centers, which, as you say, they have their local power initially just so they can get online quickly.

46:53And then they progress to a grid connection after that as soon as they can. Just wanted to go back, Samath, something that I mentioned earlier a while back, and you were talking about OEMs. This Rivian announcement that hit the headlines a couple of weeks ago, what's the significance of that? Yeah. So again, if I go back to my value chain, where we have the vehicle manufacturer, the software provider, fleet management, and distribution, which is Uber. In some ways, Tesla is going left to right. They started the vehicle platform, then they built on the self-driving, then they're doing some of their fleet management, and then they have an app.

47:31In many ways, we are going right to left. We started the consumer app, and now we're trying to figure out how do we take control of our destiny on the other bridges. right so we are doing a bunch of work with OEMs you mentioned Rivian we did a similar deal with Lucid and where we combined Lucid and Neuro which is a self driving stack and working with companies like Lucid and Rivian enable us to get that supply where we can get thousands of cars who are totally enabled who can work with multiple software providers and we can deploy them on Uber right so for us it's you know supply like Uber's always been a supply-led business, right?

48:09Like, you know, from the very get-go, supply is what makes Uber possible. Like, you need a strong supply base to make sure that Ed and Amy get good ETAs, to make sure that it's a high-quality car. And similarly, we're thinking about securing supply in the AV world as well. And the only way we secure supply is by doing deals like the one we did with Rubio. Right, and this brings me to, Andrew, something you were saying earlier about markets around the world where you operate. Obviously, Uber, a global business. And you said something about EVs make sense in the markets where they make sense. And my immediate assumption based on that, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that is in particular markets where drivers have access to low-cost EVs.

48:53And in particular, I guess that means therefore Chinese EVs, not just BYD, but the other very high quality, very low cost Chinese EVs that are now available, increasingly being exported to the world, except to those countries where there are massive trade barriers and they aren't really allowed in, such as the United States. Yes. Am I right to think that? Is that a crucial factor then in terms of where EV adoption is really progressing the fastest, that it's those countries that are allowing imports and in particular imports of Chinese technology that are really seeing the greatest competitive advantage for EVs?

49:35And as you say, just in terms of total cost of ownership, are those the places where that TCO is lowest? You know, internally, we have a scorecard where we look at essentially TCO today and then TCO through Uber's interventions and where we can move the needle. Today in Europe is where essentially the scorecard is green. If you look at London, Paris, some of our markets in Portugal, I mean, we have upwards, as I said before, 40 percent EV miles on the road, some other big cities, 30 percent. But across Europe, 20 percent of our miles are EV miles. In the US as a comparison, it's closer to about 10%.

50:13Obviously, California is much higher, but a lot of that, as you said, Ed, is vehicle supply or vehicle mix. We are looking at markets where we can get low cost vehicles, both through intervention. So I mentioned some of our OEM partnerships. We are striking deals with companies like Kia to bring discounted vehicles to our drivers, especially in the US markets. But I will tell you, and I'm actually headed down there in a couple of weeks, Latin America is a big growth opportunity for us. Brazil is one of our largest markets by ride volume at the whole company. When I looked at our list of top 20 cities by ride volumes, I was surprised to see a fair number of them were all in Brazil.

50:57So Latin America, where we can get Chinese vehicles, both in cities like Sao Paulo, but also Mexico City will be a core focus for us as we think about interventions and ways to move the needle. So I always say that this sort of fallacy of trying to block Chinese cars from coming to the U.S. is not really what's going to affect the fate of Detroit, because it's not about the couple million, 10 million, whatever plus cars that get sold every year in the U.S. Now that one in four cars sold in California is an EV, right, and that's the biggest car market in the U.S., it's about what international markets.

51:37You know, Mexico was a primary destination for the sale of American-made cars and even American-used cars. So I just want to share for our listeners, but also for you, Samartha and Andrew, a quote I saw in the media yesterday from Paul Jacobson, who is the CFO of GM. And he was asked this question about whether they were going to change their strategy of canceling their plans for EVs because, you know, look what's happening. You know, I have some statistic from Octopus Energy saying that their EV charging unit sales are up 20 percent already. Right. We've got, you know, numbers coming out of, like you say, out of Europe and Asia, quite significant already.

52:27In fact, it's a funny, you know, trivia point. There's an electric rickshaw maker out of India called Tesmo. And they said that they already sold their March inventory of electrified rickshaws. So anyway, to the point, here's his quote. Quote, it takes four to six months of sustained high gasoline prices before people start to change their car buying preferences, he says. I don't think we're seeing that. And so he's saying the GM is not going to make any adjustments in light of the war. That seems super short sighted to me. I thought the original canceling of the strategy was short-sighted because are they just saying they're not going to try to compete to sell cars globally?

53:12Like, what are they saying exactly? And I was keynoting a conference in Houston. So I made this point, you know, on stage. And then you could hear a pin drop. And at the coffee break, everyone was coming up to me and say that was an astounding thing to say. Because I talked about when I lived in Houston, I had a Suburban. Because, you know, you have to drive 50 kids around. You're going to soccer. It's flooding. you need like a really tall car. And so I did. I mean, I also had a hybrid vehicle, but I had a truck for when I really needed to have a truck. And that truck, which was very affordable at that time, I think I might have paid$27 ,000 for that truck.

53:50That same truck is like $80 ,000 to$110 ,000 today, depending on loading it with leather or, you know, features. And, you know, you could buy a Chinese EV for that same$27 ,000 that I bought my old truck with. So I said, if you're some person in Mexico, and you have a choice between this snappy$27 ,000 Chinese EV with all kinds of bells and whistles, including like maybe a refrigerator or TV in the back for your children, right? Or a$100 ,000 American made passenger truck. What are you going to buy? What dream are you having that people in Mexico or Brazil or other places are going to buy these giant cars that we use here in the United States for big money when they can get a really cheap Chinese EV?

54:48And you could hear a pin drop in there because that was, you know, clearly like perspective. You know, I don't know, you want to comment, because I know you are working with some OEMs, but what do you think? Yeah, and just while you're thinking about it, and as a subsidiary thought on that, I wonder if you see that particularly sharply at Uber, because what you say is people who are driving for a business, they're not driving for ego gratification, or to look flash or for pleasure, the economics really matter to them. And the way that stacks up in terms of costs and revenues is important to them more than anything else.

55:27But Igor, what do you think? Yeah, I think, Amy, you kind of hit the nail on the head. I mean, I do think that trade restrictions have prevented, obviously, some of these vehicles from being available in US markets or other markets. I think some of these foreign markets have access to these lower cost vehicles. There's been a perception, I think, issue in the past around these. I think that's changing, especially with younger demographics. For our drivers, the vehicle is a tool, and they're looking for a high-quality, low-cost tool that they can use for a long period of time. So what we're seeing in some of these markets where these low cost, high quality tools are available is that they're great options for our earners.

56:09And they're meaningfully moving the needle on some of our other corporate goals like EV adoption and pushing that forward. So we'll continue to lean into that. So we ought to wrap up very soon. But before we do, then, I want to go back to Amy's point about the science fiction aspect of things and imagining where this is going to be. I mean, if we talk to you, we'll have you back on the show in 10 years' time, hopefully we'll see you again before then. But if you were back here in 10 years' time, where would EVs and AVs have got to by then, do you think? I mean, I don't necessarily need you to put numbers on it in terms of percentage of rides, but just in terms of the position they will have in Uber's strategy.

56:51Andrew, what do you think? I think EVs will continue to be a focus point. And what you'll see is that a majority of our markets will flip from this being a minority or small segment to just the market. If you look at London as an example, a big focus for me is figuring out how we create incrementality around a relatively smaller product portfolio. But when you look at London where 40 % plus of the miles or EV, it just becomes our core business. So that's the goal is how do we lean into EVs being part of our core business, building economically durable models and market opportunities for us. And really, as I said before, driving the dollar per mile down so that you can increase surplus value for Uber.

57:40I think actually that's a good segue probably to Samarth as well, because honestly, the same strategy across both platforms, EV as well as human. Yeah, Samarth, what do you think? Where are AVs going to be? I think Andrew said it very well. I think our North Star is how do we reduce the cost per mile to give back that surplus value to earners, to consumers? And in 10 years, what you'll see, or what we hope we will see and what our strategy is, is an expansion of the overall category size because we've reduced that cost per mile and you'll see a lot more human drivers, but you'll also see a lot more AVs on the road.

58:14And ideally, we're doing it in a way where we're causing less congestion, We're enabling further access to charging deserts. And we're overall increasing mobility, you know, more than just the urban downtown geos. So that's sort of been Uber's story and vision since day one. And I don't think that'll change. Amy, where do you think it's going to be? You know, I have to say, I think urbanly, AVs are going to wind up becoming more and more popular. um you know some of the thing with new technology you know people say people got microwave ovens and nobody had a problem with them so they were adopted very fast whereas nuclear power when it started out the second there was three mile island it slowed everything down so you know what's your climate resilience plan for avs i think is going to be very critical to the business success of them um but if you overcome that uh anxiety that you know people might have I think it's going to be a compelling technology and I think its versatility in terms of what you can do with it is going to be like huge.

59:27And so therefore, I just think all the people who are, you know, going out with baseball bats and all the things that people do today because they want human drivers to have an earnings, I just think the utility of it is going to become so huge that I imagine them real, I feel Jetsons. I just think they're going to take off big time over time. What we're seeing actually is like in markets where we have AVs, earnings for drivers have actually increased. And in markets where we have AVs, the overall growth rate for those markets have also increased. So if I just think about the US, Austin and Atlanta, right, where we partnered with Waymo, like those two markets are growing almost twice the average growth rate of our other markets in the US, right?

1:00:12And we're seeing much better trends in driver earnings as well. So I hope those people at baseball bats are hearing because the drivers are doing well, too. Actually, that makes sense, Samarth, and I'll tell you why. If I can reliably rely on, I hit my app on my phone and I get a driver, whether that's a human driver or a robot driver, right? the more reliable it is and the more available it is, the more people will say, I don't need a car. And the more people say, I don't need the car, the more opportunity there is for both human drivers and robotic drivers. Yeah, very interesting. That is a fascinating thought.

1:00:55And I have, just my final thought on this is that having been sceptical about both EVs in general and AVs in particular, as you know, Amy, and we have discussed this a lot. We caught every show. On every show, on every show we disagree about this. But I do think I have come round to your position, Amy. I think you have persuaded me that, although it's clearly a bumpy road and there are delays and setbacks, and we're very much in a setback in terms of the EV market in the United States right now, for instance, or certainly we were a couple of months ago, but I think depending on how the Iran war and the energy crisis related to that plays out, it's still going to be a tough market for EVs, I think, whatever happens.

1:01:43But as you say, globally, in terms of the direction of travel and the arguments that people are thinking about in terms of where they want to place their bets on technology and how they want to manage their exposure to energy price risk, EVs are just going to be increasingly compelling. And EVs along with that. Yeah, I do think that's right. So unfortunately, we do have to leave it there, but it has been fantastic talking to you. Thanks very much, Andrew. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Samarth. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Amy. Look forward to talking again very soon. Many thanks to our producers, Molly Mowen and Toby Biggins-Gilchrist.

1:02:31And above all, as ever, many thanks to all of you for listening. We really value your feedback, so please do keep that coming. And we'll be back soon with all the latest news and views on the future of energy. Until then, goodbye.