Meta’s Muse just stole the spotlight from OpenAI and Anthropic

0:00This episode of Equity is brought to you by Schneider Electric. Schneider Electric. advancing energy tech. It's model drop week for Anthropic OpenAI and most surprisingly, Meta, whose Muse model is stealing the spotlight and reportedly outpacing ChatGPT's early mobile numbers. Also this week, Andreessen Horowitz is launching its own school for aspiring founders straight out of high school. And we're keeping our eye on a couple of deals this week, including the IPO of smart ring maker, Aura.

0:38Hello and welcome back to Equity TechCrunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. Today is Friday, September 25th, and I'm Kirsten Korosek, Transportation Editor here at TechCrunch, and I'm joined as always by our weekend editor, Anthony Ha and senior reporter special project Sean O 'Kane. Welcome you too. And I have a very important question, which is, did you catch Tilly Norwood and her flawless interviews that happened when she was on her big press tour? I was ignoring the press tour because I don't really have any interest in the idea of AI actors or I'm intellectually interested, but I have no interest in actually seeing them in a movie, which I think is how most normal people feel.

1:28But, you know, you can get some headlines that way. And Tilly didn't do so great from what I hear. She basically switched to speaking Mandarin during an interview with Piers Morgan. And it was a little disconcerting for Piers. There's a lot that's disconcerting for Piers Morgan. One of many things. Yeah. One of many things. Yeah, it was pretty cringe. And the only reason why I bring it up because like counter to that, President Trump said that, you know, AI has reached super intelligence. And I thought that that was a good counterpoint. Like you could just turn and point to Tilly and say Exhibit A.

2:06No. Yeah, I think it's fair to say that this is not a measured decision of him sitting and pondering the meaning of superintelligence, he being President Trump. But rather, it seems like he is very much caught in this sort of debate about AI safety. And he is very much taking the position of, no, like AI is great. Everyone should love AI. You know, unfortunately for him, a lot of the polling data suggests that certainly most Americans don't feel that AI is great. And so he's decided to do a little one man presidential rebranding campaign where he is just calling it super intelligence. And that's what we should all call it.

2:51And yeah, we'll see if it catches on. I don't know that I've seen it immediately take off, but anything's possible. Is it super intelligence, though? Is artificial intelligence super intelligence? Well, OK, great. This is what we're going to argue about for the next 40 minutes. Yeah. No, I don't think so. But we can see. I mean, there is definitely some news that maybe certain tech executives would argue that we're getting closer. I mean, they've been arguing that for years now. And we've seen that, you know, and this is kind of one of the big things that we're going to be talking about this week is all these new AI models.

3:26You know, we have new things, new models from Anthropic, new models from OpenAI. And then I think the one that got the most attention was Facebook slash Meta with a new version of Muse, which, Kirsten, you were keeping a close eye on. Yeah, absolutely. You know, to me, what's really interesting is just to back up a minute, we have a number of releases. So we've got, you know, Anthropic releasing, Opus 5.5, and then OpenAI is right there. Then, you know, Muse, we're going to get to that in a second. But I want to stop and just ask, I thought we were pacing the frontier and it doesn't seem like we're pacing the frontier, Sean.

4:04I mean, it's a it's a fast pace, right? That is a very careful choice of words, apparently, by our AI overlords to allow them some room. You know, I love language. So here we are. Well, but seriously, I mean, do you think that is it so vague that it can mean anything? And should we be tying model releases to what pacing the frontier means? Because, you know, these are probably releases that could just be small improvements. Certainly, they're talking about pretty big improvements, but not every model release is going to be groundbreaking. Of course, they want to keep up with the competition. So can you have both, I guess?

4:46Can you pace the frontier and also have a new model release every three months? Certainly, the argument that Sam Altman and Dario Amadei are making is that yes. And to be fair, I mean, I think these are probably model releases that have been in the works for a while now. Now, you know, they're not necessarily responding right away to, you know, debates that have been happening in the last few weeks. But the vision that they're trying to present is, hey, we can be careful. We can be deliberate. We can make these changes, like having these independent, you know, auditors, you know, working with us and making sure we're kind of holding to our commitments.

5:21But at the same time, we can continue developing new technology. So and I think that's like a fair argument to make. The question then is from the outside, what does pacing look like? Does it just look exactly the same as what it did before? And if so, then what has actually changed? I mean, I think that's a fair question. I mean, now I'm pretty sure the audience follows pretty closely the different models. But I will note that Anthropic, they have Opus 5.5. And I think it is notable that this is their most expensive tier. So they are releasing more capable models that are not the cheapest. These are clearly geared more for the enterprise clients.

6:07So I mean, I don't know if that is going to continue that sort of theme, but they are very interested in growing the enterprise side of things just as open AI. Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this dynamic a few times now over the last month or two of, you know, I was making the case a couple weeks ago, they're just not structurally built in a way that slow down a real slowdown, like makes a lot of sense. I think another piece of that that is worth pointing out, you know, that you just basically highlighted, but to say it even sharper, like, they have found opportunity, I wouldn't want I wouldn't go so far as to say, like, they've struck gold, but like, enterprise applications for this technology is something that they are all trying to get as much as they can.

6:55And so there's just, you know, that part of it is not going to slow down anytime soon. That's for sure. So how do you counter that or how do you put Muse, which is this new personal AI agent that's just been released by Meta and clearly a bet on consumer? Like, how does that fit into what you just described, which is at least with other frontier AI model companies is seeing opportunity and business within enterprise because Meta Connect, which is their big annual event just happened, and they are like, you know, all in on news. That is very clear. That was definitely like very head spinning for me because it certainly feels like what we've seen, what we've been talking about has been this shift towards enterprise, not exclusively, but certainly that's where it seems like the money, the attention is going.

7:46And, you know, maybe some of that is also like because of the relative position of these different companies, OpenAI and Anthropic, obviously they are very kind of in the lead in a lot of ways, but also they're hoping, planning to go public in the next, either this year or next year in the case of OpenAI. And so there's this feeling of, oh, I think we got to actually make money now. And not to say that they're not making money now, but because the costs are so high, and the valuations are so high, they have to make money on this scale that's essentially unprecedented. And I think they're seeing enterprise as the way to do that.

8:23And potentially, I wonder if, you know, meta, for a variety of reasons, sees a different opportunity. And so you could, there's a part of me that's like, yeah, wait, did they sort of not get the memo? But I think more charitably, you could say, well, if that's where OpenAI and Anthropic are going, then maybe there is more of an opportunity for meta to make the kind of much more consumer-friendly, and they continue advancing AI on the consumer side? We can complain about or criticize or critique meta all day long, but they're very good and have established track record of embedding themselves in everyday people's lives.

9:02I mean, there's a reason why Facebook has so many users, Instagram, WhatsApp, and I've never really thought of them as an enterprise product anyway. So I think it's smart for them to continue to push on the consumer piece. You know, Sean, you just tried you've already tried Muse, which has already been out for a couple of weeks. And I'm wondering if you see it being successful in the bid to become part of every part of your life. Not really. No, OK. Not not really. I totally thought you were going to say something very different. No, you know, I understand why some people think that is going to be the case.

9:47You know, we should say I'm sure a lot of people understand this, but this is like roughly meta's kind of like ground up version of like a an on your iPhone or on your Android app of OpenClaw, which we talked about a couple of months ago, which meta went out and basically bought and integrated those folks work where they were basically taking like Mac minis and running, you know, their own sort of like, it was the first big explosion of like, holy smokes, these agents can do all this stuff for me while I'm out and about. And I can just text with it and let it control my whole computer. And so there's a lot of the same kinds of elements of that at play and having it in your hand on an app that works with like a relatively good chat bot, you know, as the interface, it does seem pretty like powerful.

10:37If I wanted to keep blinders on, I would say, you know, one of the first things that I did with it was, you know, cause it makes a suggestion for you. Um, it makes a bunch of suggestions for you as to like things that it can do. And one of them was like, you know, I'll scan to see if you have any like unclaimed funds, right? Like this thing that like, I think no one ever really thinks about and often is going to completely miss because there's just not a lot of unclaimed property funds out there in your name. Surprise, surprise. There were some for me. And so, like, it helped me make some money on my first day.

11:09And that was pretty cool. Like, I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't been prompted by this thing to do it. And there's a check on its way to me in the mail. Fantastic. That ends pretty quickly, right? You just killed your own argument. I don't see how that wouldn't become widely, wildly popular. But it's not a thing. So it's but it's not a thing that's like repeatable. That's like a it's a kind of that's more like a party trick type thing and also something that like I should have just been looking out for that by myself I get that that's partially what agents are there for because the the ability to constantly be operating and doing it sort of tenfold 100 fold compared to what work you have to put in there's some power in that but you know the more sustainable version of that the thing that met has talked up a lot over the last couple days is you know taking that idea and applying it to your real true everyday financials like giving it your your information for your credit card your gmail account like all this other stuff like do things that we've seen other companies do like rocket money or whatever where it'll go cancel subscriptions that you're not using or identify double charges you know things that frankly the credit card companies should be doing already and at that point you just run into that trust wall with meta right like i think one of the reasons that i was willing to explore this and was kind of curious to stick with it a little bit, even through to today, is that somewhat shockingly, when I downloaded it, I just assumed that it would like really instantly prompt me and like plug me right into threads, Instagram, Facebook, which I don't really use ever and and pull up that context immediately.

12:41But it didn't. And it was like working with me like I was a stranger at first, which made me more willing to use it because I didn't feel like meta had everything on me already. But you can see as you start to use it, it really tries to grab you and pull those things into the system so that it can learn all this stuff about you. And, you know, at that point, it's just like, I don't know that I will ever trust meta the same way. I think it's an interesting timing for me, having just upgraded my iPhone and getting onto the new iOS with the new Siri that actually works and can do some controls on your phone in a way that is surprising and helpful that it's never been able to do.

13:17you know thinking about how much i've been using that over the last week and how much more how much more willing i would be to have the siri version of amuse take that information because i just trust apple more with that really sensitive information and not only trust it with the information from a cybersecurity perspective but from the fact that it's not its business is not to sell me a bunch of crappy ads, right? Like Meta's business is to sell you ads. And yes, they'll make the argument that the more they know about you, the more accurate and like interesting the ads will be. Wake me up when we get to that fever dream.

13:56But like, that's just been the thing that's in my head. And I haven't, you know, beyond the one time money lever that I got, which was great. I don't feel like I found anything else that's really all that useful other than the fact that it is, you know, to Anthony's point, really tailored at keeping it sort of consumery in your interactions with it, which I do think helps it and is why people are talking about it so much. And I have to say, Sean, despite your negativity, I think you did just convince me that I should try it out if only to try to pull the one time money lever. Yeah. And then maybe never again.

14:27I mean, it's worth the shot. Yeah. You might have money sitting out there, you know, I mean, I will say this, like I get your point but i will push back a little bit because yes there are reasons to not trust meta but people continue to use their products and love their products and uh use them all the time to the point where it's like an addiction which is a social media component and i think that if they do those one-off tasks like find money for you that is a way to build trust i think the bigger question is, if given a choice, the consumer has to pick a Muse type of personal agent and Siri, and Siri is already in their phone, which is sitting in their hand all the time, you know, you can kind of see where it will go to Apple's favor.

15:14But Meta has a response for that, which is two things. They're all in on glasses, which they revealed this week at Connect, including, by the way, a solution to their perv glasses, as people call them. But they're putting Muse within those glasses. And they also kind of as like a one more thing type of announcement showed off this little Tamagotchi style. I don't know if I would call it a wearable, but you can put it on a key chain. You can wear it around your neck. You can hold it in your hand, your pocket. And Muse is in that too. And that one is the most interesting because I thought about this morning and I'm like, it's so cute.

15:51I feel like it's meant for kids. And I'm kind of wondering if that's the market they're going to push, which is a whole new group of users that might not have phones. That may be the case. One thing I definitely want to say as someone who's used Muse a bunch and is now looking at those products, I think there's a big gap that they need to close between what the software can do right now and when those products come out and how it gets used. because like when I say this is kind of like and meta has admitted this week that it basically is like built to be like open claw it really is like open claw like there are times in the muse app where it's like popping up like an overlaid browser window in the app being like you're showing you or maybe even handing you over control to like click like tap click a cursor into a box so that you can fill out information in that web browser.

16:44And like, how is that going to work on glasses? How is that going to work on a little, you know, two inch by two inch piece of tech? Like, it's not there yet. And so like those are those are definitely things that hold promise for them. But I don't know how that's going to work with the current version of the software. I'm sure they'll iterate. They'll find ways around it. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, that Tamagotchi device that you talked about, Kirsten, was definitely one of the most striking things to me, which also tied into their sort of demonstration of this kind of avatar for the AI as well.

17:17And this feeling that, I mean, one, that they're trying to like, again, I don't think they said this explicitly, but it did feel like it was kind of like a kiddie version of it, or at least kid friendly, which I have a lot of reservations about because I think as much as there are sort of questions about mental health and how people relate to these like chatbots and things like that, I think that then, generally speaking, the last people who should be spending a lot of time talking to chatbots as kids. In fact, you know, I live in New York City, that now that is essentially not allowed in New York City schools up to eighth grade.

17:48I mean, I understand why, given the sort of atmosphere around AI right now, that it makes sense to try to put a kind of friendlier face on AI. But I also don't know if that's really a good thing in the long term. But I imagine we could probably go back and forth on this for a while. And there's a lot else that we want to get to, including this announcement from Andresen Horowitz about actually speaking of of, you know, younger people, a new education. And in this case, not kid kids, but it's I mean, right on the right on the cusp. What moves our world forward? Energy. History has been shaped by it.

18:24Revolutions won with it and progress dependent on it. For 190 years, Schneider Electric has been a leading force in this story, creating the technologies that harness energy and transform the competitive landscape. And today, in the dawning era of energy and industrial intelligence, Schneider is helping customers build more efficient, resilient, and sustainable operations across every sector. From data centers to homes, from buildings to industry. Schneider Electric, your energy technology partner. Discover more at se.com. yeah right on the cusp so this announcement is a new academy and you know for anyone who's followed tech for a really long time i just want to remind everyone that like every few years there's like a new idea which is actually an old idea and it promises all sorts of things in this case the horowitz and recent academy is aimed at aspiring founders it is very expensive and has some absolutely amazing classes.

19:27I don't know if you've checked this out at all, but there's some pretty fun ones in there. And I'm just wondering who is going to be paying for this? Because the counterpoint is the Teal Fellowship, which has been around for a long time and encourages people to drop out of college if they have a great idea and they get money. They don't actually have to pay for money. So is there a world in which they get money from the Teal Fellowship and then spend money to go to the academy so they can become really good founders? I don't know. That does seem like a really great sort of one hand washing the other kind of situation.

20:02It's a circular economy, Anthony. You know, it goes through all the founder stuff too. That's how they do things in Silicon Valley. I think one nuance to it is that they are saying the first class, which I believe will be 50 students, is going to be free. And then the subsequent classes after that, they will charge what they're saying is the equivalent of an elite university tuition. And I think that, I mean, for a relatively small group of students that it's not hard for me to imagine at all that just as there's a lot of interest in the Teal Fellowships and in these kinds of sort of entrepreneurship programs, that there will be an audience for this.

20:42I don't know how large or how transformative it will actually be. I mean, let's just take a step back big week for teens, right? Like meta is going to give you a new device that you can talk to while you ride in a Waymo in certain cities all the way to your how to accomplish regulatory capture at the horse. It's Andreessen University. You know, I yeah, I mean, I think you're right. Like, I think this is something that is going to be pretty focused and there won't be you know, this is not something that is going to be competing with the Ivy Leagues anytime soon. And I don't think it's meant to be that.

21:16you know this is a situation where not to just default to the cynical read like i tend to do sometimes but uh you're not cynical come on no you know i'll put it this way broadly speaking there has been you know a pushback against expertise uh to put it lightly over the last decade uh and that goes into the government that goes into universities you know that goes into the media to a certain extent and so this is to me a natural outgrowth of that where you know the idea that you are going to be better suited hearing from guest lecturers like you know Travis Kalanick or even the CEO of perplexity is is going to better prepare you for life as a Silicon Valley founder like there's an element of that that that is true But this is just to me like the sort of embodiment and and making more material that idea that like, you know, the people who have been trained to teach you at the universities are charlatans and fraudsters and don't have that lived experience.

22:27And therefore, you should come give us the money to educate you. It definitely skews a little bit cynical. I will say that I can see how they might be thinking in the very early days, which is there are these institutions that have sprung up out of like more traditional academics that have sort of a cult following. And it is a very specific group of people. I think of like the Rhodes Scholar, for example. and and if you are that and if you have that designation you're in this special group and it's secretive but has a lot of power and influence and I could see them wanting to create something like that and I don't think there's anything wrong with creating like very specific hands-on experience and you know maybe hopefully teaching them lessons of what not to do as much as of what to do there's some pretty funny classes in here like the geometry of luck which is a life philosophy class.

23:25I don't know what we're going to actually see as a society as a result of these groups of people. We're going to have to wait and see, I think. We do see evidence of what's happened with the Thiel Fellowship people. And I would say it's a mixed bag, right? Like you can see some people have gone on to be very successful and we've seen people who have gone on to be successful and then totally implode and make really bad choices. So maybe they would benefit from learning what not to do at an early stage in their founding career? I think you can sort of compare this to a lot of different things. Definitely the Teal Fellowship is one and particularly that kind of celebrating of the kind of like dropout, you know, ethos of like, hey, like school is a waste of time.

24:07Go do what you want to do, which I think is sort of admirable in a lot of ways less so in others. And I think you can also compare this to just sort of this, yeah, this broader trend of Silicon Valley or, you know, other kind of like Silicon Valley adjacent people kind of being frustrated with the education system and trying to come up with their own alternatives. And I don't think there's been a great track record for that, that, you know, the Teal Fellowship has, you know, continued. But I think there've been a lot of kind of failed attempts, things that haven't gone anywhere. And I think part of the question I would be asking if I were thinking about applying, which I'm many, many years past doing, is also that there was this sort of period where, there was also just a million different sort of like learn to code kind of schools.

24:51And I think for a period that probably was a great thing to invest in. And then now I think that there's more questions about whether or not those are actually the most marketable skills. And so I think there's also a question of like, if you're just sort of focused, like molding yourself for this one very specific role, is that actually, are you then going to be well suited to, you know, what the job market looks 10 years from now, 20 years from now? I mean, you could argue that somebody who got a standard liberal arts education is also in, you know, has has some worries about that. So it's not like there's anything that exempts you from that stress.

25:23But, you know, especially if this is actually going to be charging like serious, serious tuition fees. Like I can imagine somebody thinking that they are like about to go like crush it and then, you know, hitting some hard realities of what the job market looks like. But the connections, I will push back on that. I think that the connections that they're going to get, if it's a small cohort, as they suggest, 50 people, and they have these speakers coming in, and then certainly there's going to be other VCs they're going to be interacting with. I think the networking alone is what people are going to be paying for as much as the knowledge.

25:56And that is very important in this day, I will say, of there's plenty of accounts of AI slop hitting the job seeker market and trying to cut through the noise and trying to reach a human being to get a job. If you don't become a founder, you have a lot of connections suddenly. And that can be incredibly valuable. Yeah, I mean, the connections are for sure the primary thing here, I think, even though it's dressed up and all this other stuff. but to anthony's point like this is a thing that repeats across silicon valley where there are things that we should probably be collectively as a society trying to figure out like what does education look like in the future in a world with artificial intelligence as capable as it is already and probably getting more capable by the day and before we're even able to have that conversation stuff like this pops up and it's just going to break the way it's going to break Like the other thing is like to your point, Kirsten, you know, I, I struggle to imagine that there's going to be a lot of conversations that this thing about, you know, people learning from what they got wrong.

26:57When one of the names on the academy is the guy who says that introspection is for losers and that he doesn't think back on anything at all. You know, like, you know, so that's the thing that makes me wonder, like, what are you actually getting here? You know, from the actual courses or whatever you want to call them, if you're if your ultimate philosophy sitting from the top looking down is that, you know, you can't learn from your mistakes. Are you setting people up in any way to succeed beyond those connections that you're making by only focusing on like how they were wronged and what they got right?

27:32I mean, Kirsten and Sean, I mean, fair point about the connections. And I'm sure that's definitely the big benefit. it. You know, I think, frankly, that's also the big benefit of most elite universities. And so in that sense, and especially again, if that price tag is going to be the same, it's just like, great, cool. You've like reinvented like parts of like the elite university. Nice job. But yeah, we'll see how it turns out. Source call. Call us if you end up going to this school or if your kid goes to this school. Let us know how it goes. Including if it's a great experience, maybe, you know, Sean and I will look like idiots for being cynical.

28:10And we're, as good journalists, we're always willing to hear that. Absolutely. But yeah, let's talk about a couple of deals. The first one is Aura's IPO. It's going to be a$2.2 billion IPO that values the company at up to$14.1 billion. dollars. And it looks like essentially, I mean, this is not going to be a big fundraising event for itself, but really more about sort of providing that payday to all their existing investors. Are you guys tracking this closely? Do you think this is going to be an important IPO? I mean, I'm not tracking it super closely as I am some of the others, but I do find it interesting because this is, you know, a hardware meets software company.

28:49And I think that the components of the IPO filing are interesting because the shareholders or any shareholders are together offering 50 million shares at a price range of like 40 to 44. But most of the proceeds are going to go to the shareholders. So to your point earlier, it's going to be a big payday for them. So then what happens afterwards when they're, you know, openly trading on the marketplace is what will there be folks who jump in on that? And, you know, I think the hard thing for any company that does hardware is to show and appease and get shareholders excited about what is coming ahead.

29:29And it's not enough to just have a good product that exists. You always have to be showing more. And so I'll be really watching or more for the long term, like over the next year or two more closely than I will be on their like first day debut. So would you say you'll be tracking their health as a company. Have you been sitting on that for a while? Nice. I like it. No, it just came to me. I asked Muse for a good pun and it gave me one. Yeah. See, you're using Muse even now in the middle of this show. I know. I didn't actually ask Muse. I came up with that with my own brain. Can you imagine? I mean, I think you guys hit most of this here.

30:06The only thing I'll add to it is I think we've seen some very big IPOs this year. We've seen a lot of VCs get very rich off of IPOs this year and more power to them. That's certainly going to have lasting effects for the startup scene going forward. This one feels to me like one of the weirder IPOs. It just I mean, I understand that they're they're a popular product. Is there more to that? Is there a higher ceiling that they can reach? I don't know about that, especially as other big companies keep pushing into this space. Apple's working on a competitor to this. So I guess we'll see. And then the other thing that I always watch with stuff like this, especially with consumer products, is you're public now.

30:48You're sort of accountable to shareholders. You have all these new pressures on you. How does that distort the product? Does Aura, as a product, start to get a little bit worse as the company feels pressure to squeeze a little bit more out of its customers? Hopefully not, but we'll see. Yeah, it is a we will see moment. I want to squeeze in one other deal because we started the show kind of talking about the idea of like AI and enterprise. And, you know, even though there are these giant companies going after that, there are also small companies going after that. And there's a company called Emma, E-M-A, that raised$77 million.

31:25And their whole deal is that they sell teams of AI agents that automate workflows across HR, IT, and finance rather than doing one task at a time. And the only other thing I'll note, because I want to hear from you two, is that this is an India, a company based in India. So you're seeing definitely some AI startups coming out of that country and getting backed from funds based in that country, which I think is super interesting as well. Yeah, to me, this is one of those deals that I mean, part of it because of like the scale of some of the, you know, the potential IPOs and later stage rounds that we talk about here.

32:04like it, you know, 77 million doesn't sort of like excite quite the same way, but it is like, that's a significant early stage deal. And it's one of the ones you're just like, yep, everything about this makes sense. Like this is, you know, an area where I think a lot of startups are interested. Of course, then you start to ask, well, why is this the one that seems to be getting, you know, at least some early investment? One thing that jumped out at me is that, you know, Google and Microsoft are both early enterprise customers. I imagine that it's not necessarily something that's super widespread adoption across either company yet.

32:38I could be wrong, but I suspect not. It's probably like a more closer to like an early pilot. But that suggests, right, that even companies that have their own, you know, AI technology and models see an opportunity to be using these agents from this startup. As always, the durability, you know, that's what I'm looking for is this something that will be on the roster of tools that those big companies for a long time or not really you know you would have to imagine that they have versions of this that they can probably make work uh on their own and so you know i guess that's always been the question with sas companies and big tech companies right like you certainly can we've seen the sales forces of the world show that you can build massive businesses out of that and do the software for these tech companies instead of it coming from in-house.

33:28So if they can get out ahead of it and really prove the worth, like it is a really interesting trend that I think we're going to be following for a while over the next few years. Yeah, I think this is definitely a space that we're going to be seeing some big companies emerging. Maybe it'll be Emma, maybe it'll be something else. But in the meantime, equity will be back next week. And of course, we're also going to have Disrupt in October. So you should come to that. We're going to have a live taping of equity there. Kirsten, Sean, and I will get to do this face to face. And in the meantime, to get updates about that, you can follow us at equity pod on X and Fred's.