#168 Miguel Pinho, Seedcamp - Part I

0:03Hi, and welcome back to the European VC, the go-to-podcast for everything European VC. If you love the show, share with your friends and join our newsletter at eu.vc. If you are an EUVC regular listener, you know we've had a few of Seedcamp's stars on the show. But this will be a whole new ride. This is the first of a two-part special episode. Today, we're happy to welcome Miguel, Head of Technology at Seedcamp. He works on internal and public-facing projects, ensuring they leverage the right tool suite to continue to identify, invest and support the most exciting companies out there. If you enjoy our content, do support us by hitting the follow button, giving us a review and following The European VC on LinkedIn.

1:00Welcome to The European VC. Today we are interviewing and welcoming Miguel because he's Portuguese and I only like Portuguese people. I'm kidding, because Miguel is an absolute master in tech, specifically the VC tech stack. And he's working with our good friends over at SeedCamp and helping them with their tech stack and their tech, generally speaking, for some time. Miguel, welcome to the show. Before we deep dive into the nerdy, geeky topics that us engineers love, and Andreas will have to deal with it because he's not one of us, give us a quick backstory of who's Miguel, how did you come to be?

1:35Hey guys, thank you very much for having me. So I'm Miguel. I've been at Seedcamp for a bit over eight years now, and I'm essentially responsible for the whole tech stack. And it's a very horizontal role, which is great and is exactly what I'm good at. It took me a long time to accept that essentially what I'm good at is being quite good at a lot of shit versus being amazing at this only one thing, right? I love that. But that is true, right? And that's very useful for the role and the size of the company we're at. because what that translates to is I can speak with everyone on the fund and understand them by now, especially after this long.

2:10So yeah, before Seedcamp, I was working on my own projects for about two years and a half, nearly three. One that I don't think you guys know about was a nail art community. So in the beauty industry, I had one of the largest nail art websites in the world, like 1.2, 1.3 million visitors a year. And another project was a mashup of... And to our audience, they can't see this, but Miguel is sitting here holding up his fingers, showing us his beautiful nail art. No, he's not. No, he's not. You know, as strange as I sound like I don't have my nails done, but I do notice nails much more than I used to before that.

2:47I can tell you that much. I am sure. That's cool. That is still fun. And the other project was a mashup of essentially, for you guys that have been around for a long time, very much like Mattermark used to do. So something that would aggregate information from multiple sources into a centralized repository database, all the information about companies. So you'd have AngelList, Crunchbase, website, blog, Twitter, Facebook, any socials you can think of would be just compiled into a centralized unique page, which is part of the reason why I think I got this job at SeedCamp. I think the guys liked that.

3:19One, I was a nerd, that I love this space, and that I was about optimizing things, right? It is about increasing efficiency substantially. I hated having to go to 50 places to just get a sense about a company. Was that, I need to ask you, was that then an acquihire and that's what you're using now? Or was that, okay, this guy got talent, but that product, maybe not? No, it was not an acquihire. We did use it, I think, in the beginning for a bit. Then it just ended up dying out, right? I didn't have time to manage it, to be fair, to keep it up to date. And some of the APIs that back then were very open have evolved to be more like wild gardens, let's put it that way.

3:56We've had quite a few of your colleagues from Seedcamp on the pods. And aside from the fact that Seedcamp is probably one of the best known brands in Europe, I guess all our listeners know a lot about it. But what would be cool is to hear like this, this parallel between the growth of Seedcamp, right? Seedcamp is a different beast today than it was when you joined, but also your role and kind of what your focus has been in facilitating that growth journey of Seedcamp. I'd love to hear kind of the broad strokes and then we can kind of deep dive in. But let's for sure start with your story, right?

4:27Just because I think that you have a pretty mesmerizing story that people would be... So feel free to dive deeper as well on that part. I think it's really cool. Yeah, so I joined Seedcamp, like I said, like eight years ago. And Seedcamp was very similar in many ways, but also very different in quite a few ways. I think when I joined, we had invested in 120, 130 companies. We're not 460 plus, which is pretty wild. The team size, I think we were probably around 12 people back then, something like that. And now we're 20. And my role, you know, is to enable us to scale without having to necessarily scale the team size as much as the portfolio grows.

5:02And what I do on a day-to-day is select the tools we use, design processes that we can then try to automate so that we can scale and become very effective and efficient. I like how you hit in there just saying how good you are because, you know, the portfolio grew by four, but the team grew by less than 50%. They just hit it in there. Thank you for that. but that was part of the challenge right it was straight up very objective like when i came in and that's one of the things i like about the team right now we have four partners when i joined with carlos and reshmo the two partners and they were both very straightforward with me there's like not much tolerance to bullshit which i kind of liked and if you're doing so great they will tell you if you're doing something that they don't agree they will also tell you straight up and i think that level of directness and transparency while being objective and you know being considerate like they're great human beings that's why i stick around as well for so long but they're very objective and pragmatic about things.

5:53And I love that. That helped us. And when I joined, it was like, look, the portfolio is going to 2x over the next three years. Team's not going to 2x or 3x. So your job is to essentially ensure we can scale without breaking. And in the beginning, when I joined, there was another person in my role for just a little bit that didn't work out so well, but the person was here for a bit. And I see my vision at SeedCamp in a way, in my story, in multiple phases. And the initial one was kind of, I call it fireworks. No, fireman. Fireworks sounds better though. Sounds like a Katy Perry song though. Dear God, you do not want me to sing.

6:29Trust me. One of the many things I know I'm not good at singing is in the list. So when I came in, there were lots of things that needed to be fixed, right? There's like, look, nobody had time to fix this. Nobody had time to fix that. These are the problems we already identified. Please come and address those. And that's what I did phase one. And then as SeedCamp kept growing, there's this phase that one of my colleagues back then, that he still calls me this, he calls me Gandalf. So there was a Gandalf phase. And the Gandalf phase was very interesting because I felt that I was expecting magical stuff out of me.

7:01So Miguel is here, and even I expected magical stuff out of me. This is my naive self way back then. I was like, all right, I'm an engineer. I'm going to come in. I'm going to structure all the data, all the processes, and automate everything. You know, by the end of one year, I don't know what my job will be. I'll have automated everything. You know, that's it. They'll fire me. And then I understood the industry we're in and that, yes, you can and you must structure and you must have a structured approach. But it's also a kind of not exception, but almost an exception industry in a way, because there will always be this one deal, this one person, this one ex that, you know, can't just follow the pipeline as you designed it.

7:38Why? Because that's it. Deal with it. And you need to build a process so that it can incorporate that. And in the beginning, I struggled with that. Well, not lie. It was like, but no, but we should just design a process. And that's it. You know, they just need to go through that. This is my engineering. And I grew up in Switzerland. So you can think like trying to be like, but this is process. So I went through that phase where I expected magical stuff to come out of me. And then I understood that, you know, I did some pretty good work, but you can't just automate everything. And you can't just build a process that will always be followed.

8:07You need to build those guidelines. So that was that phase. then seed camp you know kept on growing and um there was a kind of a macgyver phase which like and i quite like that phase because i like challenges and i like early stage building and i think macgyver phase never really went away fully which is look we we are a good fund we have money we have resources but we're not like a super large fund with an infinity amount of money so your resources are constrained but we still need to do some cool shit so you have like three toothpicks and two elastics and one box of matches. You need to build something that looks like a car, right?

8:42And that was one of the phases. And that was really fun and really exciting. And I think that is something that we never want to lose in a way. And I never want to lose because it does benefit us, right? Innovation is essentially being a MacGyver by default in many ways. It's like, look, oh, I have this idea. And then you build the first version on that. And then you make sure that that first version is more reliable and more robust and sure so that then you can scale and use it for real versus in your first little sandbox where you test it out. And now the latest name that was given to me by Carlos was the architect, which I kind of embrace, which has many...

9:18It sounds very ominous, though. Man, you know where it comes from. It's the architect from the Matrix. That's exactly what I thought. It's literally where it comes from that. That's a scary name, though. It is, it is. I don't know if I trust you, but I'm not right. No, but it was given like with the best of intentions and heart. And there is quite a bit of my current version and iteration of the role that is about that, right? It's about having this holistic view about all the systems we use, about where the data is stored, how the data flows, so that we can, one, ensure that we're safe and secure.

9:54We follow process at the same time while we scale and we grow up as an organization, right? We are definitely in a point now where we need to be like we're grownups. That's it. It's like it's not seed camp from the first year where you're just like, oh, just do a quick spreadsheet on Google Docs. It's fine. You need to think through things better and you need to be very careful about how you design those systems, how those systems are compliant, how they're safe and secure, how they connect to each other while still enabling you to grow. And that's kind of the latest nickname. Maybe in a couple of years, I'll get a new nickname to share with you guys.

10:27I'd love to ask you the question, there are not that many funds in Europe that have a head of technology, especially not at the stage where Seatcamp decided to bring you on board. Of course, also correlates with the fact that Seatcamp runs a model that is very intense in terms of volume. So obviously there is another pressure on the tech stack than many funds might have. I'd be curious to ask you your reflections because I'm sure that you're being approached by many GPs and partners and you know from funds that don't have a head of technology and I'm thinking you must have that reflection sometimes well maybe you should hire a Miguel what are your reflections on that for others and I'm sure people also ask you you know should we hire a guy like you for our fund are we there is that what we need part of it is the model and the way we work required us to plan ahead and it's like look we're gonna grow we need this we need someone that just looks at tech if you're planning on growing quite substantially or you're serious about tech and none of the partners is deep into tech you know it's literally not an engineer slash data scientist slash experienced product manager if none of the partners is that you should probably have someone within the team that thinks about this a lot.

11:45I think what I've seen as a, maybe not as a pattern, but what I've seen a few times is people expecting like a magical silver bullet. And especially when they chat with me, it's like, okay, so which tools should we use? If I select which three ones will solve all my problems, like none, you're unique. You need to think through this. You need to think through which tool you're going to have and how they play well with each other and how your model works and who do you engage with and how do you structure your data? What data do you want to structure? How does it relate to each other? I think people don't deep think enough about this and they just want like FOMO or like, oh, but I've heard these guys use that.

12:24Should I? I mean, I don't know. Is it a good tool for you? I don't care what other people use. Like in the beginning, I was kind of nervous when someone would come to me and be like, oh, these guys use that. I was like, oh, maybe you should look into it. I was like, bye now. You know, maybe because I've been around for a while. I don't give a shit. I don't care what other people use. And especially when someone comes to me and says, oh, we should use this tool because X, Y, Z use them. I was like, that's not a reason. I don't care that X, Y, Z use that tool. I care if it fits us. Does it fit our needs?

12:51Does it fit our story? Does it fit our methods of operating? Does this speak with the tools that we already use and we're unwilling to move away, right? Does the data connect to each other or we're creating a new information silo? So what about these data that we have here? Then the new tool could potentially also host it. We're going to split it in half or does it speak to each other? How do we ensure that the tools we use connect and speak to each other so that we don't have data silos, which is, you know, part of the problem in a way that I came to solve initially at Seedcamp was like the methods we were using the early days worked really well for a very small scale.

13:26But then as you scale and in terms of portfolio size, in terms of everything you can think of, right, so team size, mentor size, whatever, Google Docs and spreadsheets won't work and they will not scale. And especially in the early days, when you invest in the early days of companies' lives, one of the problems we have that I think later stage funds don't have as much is rebrands, for example. Like our companies rebrand a lot. And rebrand, I'm using a very broad definition of what a rebrand is. Rebrand can be change of name, change of focus. It can be just a change of domain name. if you have five spreadsheets that aren't connected to each other and in five spreadsheets they all have a different company name and then you don't know you know what the feedback for one and who attended which event because in this they're called x if you're like two partners it's fine why because you know the names of all your companies and how they changed over time the new person joining will have no idea that def was previously called bcd and previously called ABC and they have no idea.

14:23So, you know, just that's why I'm very careful about the tools you use and whatever you add to your tech stack. Make sure it makes your life better. Make sure it makes you do a better job versus sounding cool, following the trend, using what the cool kids use. Don't care what the cool kids use. Really. I mean, don't care. Zero. Miguel, I'm going to go a tiny bit off script just because you made me think of something that I have no idea if you have an opinion or not. Maybe you don't. You did the 2021 VC tech stack website and medium and articles and all of that. And you even kind of mapped out the landscape.

14:55And I think one thing is obvious, right? And especially if we look back at 16, when you were in the early days of this journey and now, right? There's a lot of solutions out there, right? And that is great. And that is exciting. And it's really good. It helps the whole industry. That's for sure. Do you see any particularly underserved areas in terms of where there is kind of an untapped opportunity for tech solutions to help VC? I know what tools VCs don't use, and I would like them to use. I can tell you, that's one of the lessons I had from the VC tech stack report is like, too many funds don't use password managers.

15:28And that's scary in many ways. I don't understand nor accept their answer to what password manager do you use? Their answer was none. I got really confused by that. There's some level of seriousness that tied to it, right? You want to look, LPs, please give me all this large amount of money. I'll be great at selecting companies. I'll be great at managing this money and having processes to ensure we don't lose it. But also my passwords are kept in my notepad. What? That doesn't match the story. I'm sorry. It's just not okay. So I know that was one of the lessons from the VCTeck stack report in many ways.

16:03I think in terms of what tool is lacking, I have a cheeky answer. It's like, if I would know exactly what tool would be lacking, I'd be building it up. So that's one. Yeah, it's not easy to spot. I think that the industry itself is being much better served now than it was way back then. And that's obvious. So from, you know, CRM solutions that help you that have not been designed for VCs or for the industry, but like kind of, even though they're then expanding because they realize industry is not large enough to become a multi-billion dollar business. Then they strategically expand to PE or to other things later on because, well, we need money.

16:39So they start with VC and they build a product with VC and they get VC money and VC customers first. And then they expand to the big pockets of money. So I think the industry is definitely being much better served. And that's like, again, CRMs or talent. We use Sompani, which was acquired by Getro, which I think is very interesting, by the way. I think not only you have tools that were built and designed for this industry, you have now, to some extent, seen some level of industry and market consolidation already, you know, in some of the parts of it. And I think that's really cool. And that shows that the industry is evolving.

17:10Before you didn't have tools. Now you have tools and now they're consolidating because they have too many. And that's usually probably, I mean, I'm not an economist, but I would say it's probably a good sign to see this evolution. I'd love to ask you before we go into common misconceptions around the VC tech stack. You know, there are so many offerings, as you just said, for different parts of the VC tech stack. Are there any places where you'd say, this is where I am using X, which people don't think about at all? One of these places where if, for an example, you use Salesforce instead of Affinity to do your CRM or something like that, where you're doing something where people would be like, that is interesting.

17:50I'd never thought about that. Or as you just said with the password manager, you're actually right. We should add a password manager to our business. Could you bring something in that would be a bit surprising to people? Now, not so much. But I can tell you that in the past, using Airtable as the main database, which we use, Airtable is like one of our main core tools, was not necessarily seen as a good thing for a while. And people were like, oh, why are you using that? Why don't you use all these other cool tools that everybody uses, like, doesn't suit us? And then, you know, people like that would be the end of the conversation was a really short conversation.

18:25and they were like but why not and then i would expand and explain because airtable as a relational database that it is allows you to essentially have all your data connected to each other and in sync all the time and that for us was something that we as we're scaling was very very useful and everyone was like but why don't you use x for crm and why don't you use that it's like because this works so well for us we have an holistic view about how we engage with our companies that would be really hard to replicate anywhere else outside our table unless we would have much more resources much more money essentially to build a custom tech solution why because having it connected there allows us to understand how we interacted with that company for years like how did we help them out how did we come to be then we didn't engage did we contact them who do we know there which events did they show up and that's all like literally having that generalistic view is much more valuable and building that data set building that proprietary data set that we have that shows us how we engage how we operate how we support the founders the things that work the things that didn't work and all our little pilots and everything having that structured allows us to evolve and building that data set is kind of the base layer step probably not one but like one point something of becoming data driven you know the whole data driven vce I think is used very magically.

19:56Like all startups have AI, right? There's like, everyone is a data-driven VC now. Us building that data set and building that database of proprietary information about how we help our founders and about what went well and what didn't for years, that data set is worth like a lot of money. And this is not things you can get externally, right? This is not, oh, but you cannot connect to other amazing data sources. I will not name any because there are amazing external data sources, but you cannot get that from anything external. It's only internal. And we use it a lot. We have so many automations.

20:32I can't even remember. We have 150 plus automations running in multiple systems. I will not become very nerdy and drill down onto systems we use for which types of automations and why this one is better than that. That could in itself be an entire podcast episode of me. To our audience who are interested in that, we are hosting a paid session with Miguel where he'll teach you to build his tech stack. Join us for the next episode for misconceptions about the VC tech stack and Miguel's top tips for emerging VCs building their tech stack. Thank you for listening to this episode of the European VC, the go-to podcast for everything European VC.

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