E353 | Dan Bowyer ⁠and  Mads Jensen⁠, ⁠SuperSeed: AlphaProteo’s AI breakthrough, EU Competitiveness, UK’s £1trn challenge, and Klarna's SaaS Shakeup

0:00Here we are. We have some fabulous people. we have an interesting docket one particular item that um excites me let me run from the top we've got we're gonna talk about events we're gonna we're gonna review the all-in conference with mads we are going to talk about the the new deep mind release the mario draggy commentary around um the eu effectively and productivity and the challenges ahead leading into what the uk needs to do, EU fines on big tech, planners move away from Salesforce, and that is it. And today we've got Andrew Scott, who's one of my favourite humans. He's a ridiculously charming, thoughtful and smart chap.

0:42He's a founder of ECLP, having invested in hundreds of startups via his main day job at 7 % Ventures. They focus on deep tech, frontier tech, and all of the cool stuff for founders building the future. He also runs several communities, including ICE, Dragon Chasers and Allocate. Allocate and Dragon Chasers is more for collecting VCs and LPs and ICE is a very founder-focused community. And one thing I did know about Andrew is he's a big creative head. He's into screen writing and producing and he's a bit of a history buff. He's a dad with an eight-week-old, we've just learned. He's a fabulous public speaker and an all-round good egg.

1:22Welcome, Andrew. Thank you. You set me up for the perfect fall. There you go. Thanks for joining us today. And Mads and myself, the usual cronies. So let's start at the top of the docket. Who's up first? So it's me, but really, I'm going to reflect straight back to you, Andrew, because this is events. So this is your jam. This is something I've seen you do for many years, fabulously well. And the question to the room is, for investors and founders, are events worth it? Andrew. depends what you want out of them i think you always need a plan going to an event and with my investor hat on seeing founders bouncing around at every event is definitely a red flag even ourselves we don't go to that many events we're quite strategic i don't think the best deal flow for a vc comes from events and actually meeting founders because you run into a lot of those founders that bounce around at events but also you see all the same founders or the other bcs who are at the events see so for us events are a brand reach opportunity um and what i mean about you know know what your outcome is to be obviously you should go with a plan it it's a great way of networking with a lot of people if you've planned if you can grab them if you've planned in advance and you could be efficient um and of course if you're some ai dev sas tool and the room is full of 2000 ai dev developers that's probably a great place to get on stage probably even a great place to be but i do think it's a bit like um announcements on tech crunch i think often it's vanity and the founders should be careful about how they spend that currency and so we always say like tech crunch article okay what why why now what what sort of plan is this part of what do you want to get out of it um is this the moment to do it etc etc i think that's fair i was at tech barbecue in copenhagen tuesday wednesday this week so investor day and then the first day of the main conference i would hazard a guess that it's it's it's not quite doubled in size from the last time that i went two years ago but it's it's you know add 50 it's grown substantially and my key learnings are aligned with yours it's preload meetings with the people that you want to meet before you go so set up everything around the event and then the event is almost just a little bit of gravy it's a little bit of like serendipity it's a little bit of of uh oh I listened to that speaker or I bumped into that person so there's a my key learning is just preload everything don't rely on the event for the event just preload all of the meetings around it there's two caveats i probably give which is it's probably biased by age like um being a bit longer in the tooth i went to a lot of events when i was younger that definitely helped build my network and i've made some amazing connections through serendipity um You know, be it in Swedish saunas or Finnish saunas or...

4:35It's the wrong pod, dude. This is European tech, sorry. Or early morning coffee in California, like whatever, right? One shouldn't underestimate serendipity for sure. And so having got a very established network, I suppose I then see less value from the serendipitous side. I completely forgot what my other point was. mad you are a new dad you've just traveled you are forgiven while you're pondering mad you've just come back from a mega conference you just come back from the all-in besties in la which i know that you love and i know the speaker lineup is phenomenal what tell us more tell us your highlights give us give us the lowdown yeah absolutely so it was an extraordinary conference and i'd say to andrew's point which i thought were all really well made and i agree with fully there's one more thing that i think you can get from a good conference just one more thing and that's inspiration and you know yeah many conferences they don't have it because actually it's just kind of the same folks regurgitating the same stuff you know already but uh the all-in summit had just an exceptional lineup uh so elon musk was there sergey bren Mark Benioff, Peter Thiel, Michael Ovitz, and many, many more.

5:57And so, you know, what were my takeaways? There's just a lot of that. So the Californian can-do attitude, kind of the ambition to take some really big swings. There are lots of different views that were on stage. I'll give an example of some of those in a minute. But overall, I would say it's just very, very inspirational to me. And I think that's the way a good conference is meant to be. Because it also means every time you then funnel out of the conference hall, right? You've had another good talk. All those conversations that you then have with folks from all over the world, immediately there's something cool to talk about.

6:31And that is then such a good catalyst for making some of those serendipitous connections that Andrew spoke about. But what were some of the highlights? So, you know, seeing Sergey Brin come on stage, he wasn't pre-announced. It was sort of a last minute thing. It was a surprise for us. He talked about how he was back in the lab full time. So practically have come out of retirement, kind of one of the richest people in the world. He doesn't need to work a day in his life. He sees AI as the biggest shift, absolutely an opportunity in our lifetime. And it's interesting to hear him say that he felt that even kind of the Google engineers who are building this stuff, they're not using AI enough.

7:09He was just, he was so big on it and so bullish. And he's a fairly laid back guy as folks that know him will know. So it was really interesting to hear him kind of emphasize this. We also had Nikesh Arora from Palo Alto Networks, who was talking about kind of another side of what LLMs are disrupting. And he was talking about consumer phasing apps. So, you know, some of these apps we use every day, OpenTable, Booking.com, Hotels.com, all the stuff we use for travels. And he's like, look, LLMs can take this whole ecosystem entirely We're not far off. The LLM is just going straight to the API and creating the trip for you, booking the restaurants, booking the hotel, booking the flights.

7:49That's going to be disruptive in a major way. But what he also said was, look, there are huge security risks because in many ways, they're still quite easy to hack. So that was interesting. Clearly, new opportunities, new threats, and which again lead to new opportunities, of course, for everybody on the investor side. Contrasting that with Mark Benioff from Salesforce, you know, for him, AI is all about the enterprise and they are basically building agents into everything. So their new platform is called Agent Force and everything is an agent, not necessarily a customer service agent, but agents connecting to other agents operating autonomously.

8:28That's the whole new Salesforce architecture. It's very interesting to hear his vision and how that's unfolding there. kind of another one you know i was talking about some of the different perspectives you know different visions so elon musk was talking about robots and kind of he is betting on humanoid robots becoming kind of the dominant uh form of robots he said they'll be pervasive they'll be super easy to build uh and to be super easy to use because the world is already designed for humans right it's kind of so you make robots that look like us and they will work really well but then on the other hand, you had Jake Luzerarian from Gecko Robotics, and he showed how in our world of infrastructure, of roads, of bridges, of ships, of refineries, these are actually places where it's really hard for people to move around and assess and repair.

9:22And he just, he showed they've created dozens of specialized robots that can automate all of this often dangerous work, and they built an incredible business out of it. It's a really, really, you know, just an incredible founder. So that was fascinating. Just a final thing to lead on with kind of the EV, there was kind of a electrical vehicle aviation or electrical aviation panel with founders from Wisk, from Archer and from Joby. And they were basically talking about how they see some of these EV taxis take off in less than two years. and they basically said look the tech is there we're just waiting for the regulators and they say that that's the main barrier and therefore the first places where this will be put into production will probably be outside of the u.s it'll probably be in the gulf but again this was a little bit closer than than i think uh many of us realize and i just you know you know peter teal who was also there has been talking about flying cars well guys this is flying cars they're coming and they're they're probably a lot closer than we think so yeah when i was a kid i remember it was all eating silver pills and flying cars i mean that's that's what 1980 was supposed to look like now they're here did you andrew did you um did you remember what you wanted to wanted to catch up on i think the inspiration is also a great point i agree with ads um you know we we so often now working remotely we tend to work in a silo if you if you do work remotely a lot and there's nothing like mixing your room with people who share a fellow passion like to to spur you on and I think we need that that human contact there's no question no I agree I agree the only the only challenge I have with that piece is the kinds of people and the kinds of characters that are there to inspire you.

11:17And this is always a double-edged conversation and it's quite a difficult conversation to have. But when you've got Elon Musk backing characters like Trump and the way that he uses his megaphone of X to just be an unpleasant human being, I have a real personal challenge with the kinds of characters that are on stage inspiring you. And I know that obviously Teal invited J.D. Vance to come and do a talk at the All In Conference and some of the right-wing views or some of the extreme views, forget right-wing, left-wing. So the question I have for both of you is, does it matter? Should politics even be part of the conversation when it comes to this inspiration piece or the people that are leading and driving our world?

12:06Andrew, what do you think? I think in personal relationships, you want to be aligned with someone who's aligned with your values. but I think in business or indeed in politics, it's a bit naive to think you're going to be able to vote for someone or work with someone who agrees with everything you agree with. And when you look at the impact that Elon is having, long-term positive potential for the planet, I give him quite a lot of latitude on his political views. It doesn't mean I agree with him. doesn't mean I think he's made smart decisions on how he's using that the soapbox he has and sometimes I'm disappointed by him but what are we to do are we to try and discount the guy or put friction in the way of his greater mission, which is to decarbonize mobility and the wider industry or put friction in the way of making us a two planetary species.

13:14I think there's some pragmatism needed here and he's all for free speech, so let's argue him into a corner and undermine his arguments. That's the point of democracy, right? Yeah, fair comment. Mads, anything to add there? Yeah, absolutely. I think we should be careful we're not so sensitive that we can't be around folks that have other views than us. It's interesting. So I brought out a couple of people I mentioned, Elon Musk, Sergey Brin, Mark Benioff, and Peter Thiel. And immediately folks are saying, oh, right wing, right wing. Well, it turns out of those four names, two have been donating to Republicans and two have been donating to Democrats.

13:55But it's almost like if there's one person, one view in the mix that folks don't like, Like everybody gets so sensitive around it. Whereas actually, I think, isn't it much more about just getting a plurality of views and having a discussion and bringing it all in? And then, as Andrew says so correctly, addressing those arguments and those views we don't like head on, rather than sort of trying to cancel folks and just say, we don't want to hear what you have to say. I think one thing that's important for me is, and it's less so maybe in Europe, but certainly the US political discourse, there's just far too much money involved.

14:30I think that's maybe the bigger problem. I think you shouldn't have such a big megaphone just because you have money and some of these huge donations just seem odd, right? And you know how much in Congress, how dependent the whole system is on political donations. So in my view, that's a bigger problem. But yeah, people having views, I think, is fine. Let's discuss. Let's argue. And sometimes there can be folks that come from another corner or another pot and maybe have another starting point that we do, but they might have a point. And maybe that point isn't the right one to begin with, but it still inspires in some way.

15:04And in shaping our counter argument, we will harness our own and we will become smarter. And for me, as Andrew says, I think that's so much of what democracy is about. no i think it's fair i i'm offended by the extremities and i'm i'm offended by the by the tribal by the tribal nature this two-party tribalism it just doesn't it just doesn't work and when you have these extreme views espoused it's just it's it's so divisive anyway way too political let's get back into google and deep mind and alpha proteo is that how you say it alpha proteo alpha proteo i have no idea mads this is yours so this is their first ai system for designing novel high-strength protein binders to serve as building blocks for biological and health research.

15:48This is a big deal. What's cooking? Yeah, look, so, you know, take a step back. So, you know, proteins, what are they? I mean, they're complex cells that serve both as building blocks in our bodies, but also as tools for ourselves and as workers that can carry out certain functions. And, you know, when cells mutate, they can become cancerous, they can hijack the proteins and they can start using them to metastasize, which is what happens when cancer grows and spreads. And so one of the ways we can address cancer is to develop instruments that can stop these rogue proteins. And these are the protein binders.

16:24And so it's a protein binder is a molecule that binds to the original protein and that can stop it from doing something we don't want it to do, like enabling cancer to spread. And so because proteins are complex, it can be And it's really tricky to find the binders that fit these proteins correctly. And we know Google has been doing some incredible research at Google DeepMind in particular around alpha fold, which was a new way to figure out how these proteins fold. And they've then used and leveraged that insight and that research to help figure out how we can find and identify these protein binders.

16:59And that's exactly what it does. So it's still very early days. The white paper that's gone out now has reported experimental success rates of three to 300 times better binding affinities than the previous best methods. So it's potentially, as you say, could be a big deal. Now, it's only the beginning. Even if we find a protein binder, we still need to find ways to make sure that we can deliver the right dose at the right time. Medical research has so many complexities. But for me, the reason I thought this was so exciting is this is a real way in which AI is advancing our medical research capabilities right now, today.

17:38And so when we talk about when is AI really going to have an impact, well, right there in that white paper is AI having potentially a huge impact. So I thought that was a very exciting thing to share. Will this mean anything for the European ecosystem specifically? Will this open up any more startup opportunities, investment opportunities, or is this kind of a solo deep mind Google thing? Is there anything that we can bake around this, do you think? I don't know how this is going to work out. Well, lots of work now needs to go into figuring out how we can take these. But first of all, you have a new capability that can enable you to develop and identify these new protein binders.

18:19But then you then need to develop drugs from that. So it could potentially be a huge opportunity for European biotech. There could be something out of this. There could be some further startup investing, some other activity. Because, Andrew, you invest in founders building the future, to use your own vernacular. So can you see anything in this? Maybe give a quick kind of synopsis of the kind of stuff that you invest in, the kind of stuff that gets you out of it. Yeah, actually, life science is an area of expertise. and one of the things we do very little in, we've had to watch many of the AI drug discovery startups sort of go by the wayside just because we invest in health and digital health.

19:03And if it's majority digital driven, so it's AI driven, we can do it. But if a large part of it is pharma related, we just don't have the experience in the team to cover it. So I think it's a fascinating space. I think that as with anything that AI touches, it's an opportunity for a step change in outcomes and sort of democratizes to some degree the opportunities against the big pharma companies. So we've backed some of the stuff, which is the picks and shovels. if you look at chemastery who are using ai and robotics to mean that a chemist never has to do the same process again they do them once and it learns and it then reproduces that exact same compound over and over and over again um so it's super exciting like most areas that that are being impacted by the sort of cost reduction in hardware and the the increase in compute power yeah it's I mean, that leads us very nicely onto our next kind of that efficiency, productivity.

20:07And obviously, we're seeing it in health, pharma, and there's going to be some massive inroads into drug discoveries and vaccines and all of those health related products and services, which are massive. But Mario Draghi, the ex-Italian PM and ex-president of the ECB, was talking at the EU and he's just released the paper, The Future of European Competitiveness. now Mads and I talk about productivity and efficiency across Europe a lot we're a bit of a broken record on the topic but it's just a massive thing if we don't correct the change we cannot have the welfare health care roads infrastructure defense budget that we all need and want so this is a massive massive deal he's a really interesting character I loved hearing him The Bloomberg headline is the EU has reached a point where without action, it will have to compromise its welfare, the environment or its freedom.

21:04And then Politico going into the EU is hampered by a badly designed financial market. Energy is too expensive. R &D is haphazard and split among too many countries. It's increasingly polarized politics, make an agreement or anything as frustrating and as painful as pulling teeth. So there's loads of headlines, loads of stories around around his talk and his paper. and his key themes are he wants to see a massive investment boost he's talking about 800 billion a year I think he wants to see better management of energy in the decarbonization efforts he wants to see us close the innovation gap reduce dependencies fully implement the single market and really work on their skills and social inclusion because if we don't pull society together rather than being divisive then we have a massive problem so Mads I know we talk about this this is a massive topic for you.

21:52What's on your mind around this for us? Look, as you say, Mario Draghi is really interesting to listen to. He's not mincing any words. I think it's refreshing to hear somebody outline the problem so eloquently and so clearly. I thought the report was well written and it's welcome. There are so many ways to look at this, but I keep coming back to kind of this balkanization of Europe. You know, to be the best Europe can be, we need to bring all of us together. You know, one of the things he highlighted is that, you know, by some measures, Europe doesn't have or the EU doesn't have any of the world's top science clusters.

22:34It turns out that Europe's top science clusters are outside the EU, in the UK and Switzerland. And it's just nuts, right? It's not good for us and it's not good for them. you know imagine the u.s economy without california right imagine that was a different country but the uk is not california but accepting the weather it is the most californian part of europe and so of course we'd be better off and they'd be better off if we were all together if we could you know use the uk for its strengths commercially and research wise if we can use the european market and we can collaborate in that way and so i think a lot of the things he talks about are they're well meant and and i but i think without getting more uk eu collaboration it's going to be hard to really go the the last mile it's it's like trying to fight with one arm tied behind your back andrew you i mean you live in portugal you're you do deals across europe you you have your i think your partners in in the bay so you are a well-traveled uh european global European traveling Wilbury what what do you hear down in Portugal what's the connective tissue across Europe that you kind of are plugged into do you know anything or have any insights into what's happening regarding shift in regulation or or changes in policy because I love how this guy's talking and he's what he's 77 now he's got no no extra grind he just wants to tell it like it is I think he did his talk on his 77th birthday so good for him and get out there but Andrew how do you see the European challenge converse opportunity?

24:13Wow how long have we got? Yeah sorry about that that was a big foot in the door that one sorry. Yeah I split my time in Lisbon London so sort of get to taste first hand I kind of both flavours I suppose to some degree. I thought the article was really interesting but nothing hasn't been said before I mean one of the one of the bullet points stood out particularly as great corporate speak, which was close the innovation gap. I mean, I must have heard that since I was in my teens. I've always had a healthy interest in current affairs and closing the innovation gap. I grew up in Cambridge in England and for years, they nicknamed themselves Silicon Fen, which I always thought was a bit of a joke.

24:59There are some fundamental structural reasons why Europe and the UK are struggling, both economically, I think, but to embrace this next wave of innovation around AI and robotics and everything else. Some of those are political, but some of those are cultural. And I think we do have a real scarcity mentality problem in Europe, but also in the UK. And you see that reflected day to day in how many investors invest, but certainly in how politicians make the rules and regulations we have to operate within. um you know he touches on a bunch of different areas including decarbonization um i think that's a great example like if you want a leading green tech industry you impose the tightest restrictions to force the market to respond to that demand you don't put the loosest restrictions in and so in the uk i'm still a uk national i'm very frustrated that we don't just impose the tightest constraints on the end of petrol cars because the politician's view is and of course all the incumbent lobby of anybody who cares about gasoline is that this will crush the economy and this will you know increase the cost of living and make doing business harder when in actual fact what will happen is you end up with you'll end up with the most advanced green tech industry and you'll build an industry because this is where the market demand will UK will be where the market demand is and suddenly you're in a position where in Europe anyway you have then a bunch of companies that will then be at the forefront of serving all the other economies when they catch up when they put in the same regulatory constraints so there's a lack of strategic understanding and strategic thinking at government level for sure and you know strategy by its definition is long term but politics these days act more and more like ceos responding to quarterly reports of public markets you know short termism they they wax and wane according to the to to what the polling says um so i always laugh when governments come out with a strategy because it lasts sort of six months and half of it doesn't get implemented and you see this with the new labor government in the UK they've just they're going on and on about how they want to be at the forefront of you know the UK is an AI superpower yet the first thing they do when they come to government is cancel the billion dollar budget for the new supercomputer which would be 50 times faster than any computer in the UK and which Edinburgh University has already spent 30 million pounds on a building floor and they've cancelled it and it's a political decision and if it's not a political decision then they're really they really are just stupid because even six months delay has an exponential knock-on effect of everything else that trickles down from access to that compute power so there's just as so often a complete disconnect between what the politicians in brussels or the politicians in that the government and the government and the government and the London say they want and the strategies and the, the, the regular, the regulatory frameworks that they implement.

28:32There are some most basic of changes, which, you know, us as VCs run into every day. And I'm talking about like, you know, just compliance around raising a VC fund. For example, if you're in the US, up to I think it's a$250 million fund. I'm sure someone will correct me. You can go out and raise money from anybody and you have to KYC them. You have to find a professional investor at the point at which they give you money, at the point at which they're going to go, hey, I'm going to give you a hundred grand or I'm going to give you$10 million or$50 million. Then you have to check that they are sane and they are a professional investor who is appropriately equipped to make a decision to invest in your fund.

29:12What do you have to do in the UK? In the UK, you're supposed is to get someone to sign a bit of paper and to KYC them before you even talk about your fund to them, which is the equivalent of saying to someone, you know, you walk into a kitchen, you've got a kitchen shop selling sharp knives and before the person walks through the door, you go, right, can you fill in this form in order to confirm that you're sane enough to come into my shop, not pick up a knife and stab yourself in the heart with it. And that is the regulatory framework under which tech in the EU and the UK is operating. like every person who walks into the kitchen shop to buy kitchen knife has to fill a long form and the shopkeeper has to stand at the door and interrogate everybody before they even get inside the shop to even decide they might want to buy a knife or even pick one out of the display cabinet let alone hold it in their hand or walk out the door with it that i mean and there is no rationale with this because you can't charm someone by sending them a powerpoint presentation of course the regulations are there for a reason, to protect the public, to protect bad actors, but that should be done at the point in which somebody invests.

30:18And this is one very small thing, but imagine the friction that is involved for anybody raising a fund and the cost, you know, compared to the market that everyone is competing against, which is the US, where I can just send, you know, as a US fund, you can send the deck to anyone. Don't be gay. And this regulatory approach trickles down across every industry. And I'm actually quite big on regulation. My problem is that governments are naive that regulation is set by the winners in this industry. And, you know, there's nothing Google or Facebook likes more than regulatory capture, right, to protect their industry, firstly.

31:04The second thing is that when the government does have an opportunity to regulate, they don't do it. And I'm thinking easiest example in the UK would be water companies, water companies have a monopoly, they're private companies. Why are they paying dividends and profits out when they're poisoning our waterways every single day? They are poisoning the public commons, yet they are allowed to pay dividends. Why doesn't the government just say no dividends until you stop polluting, until you pollute to one hundredth of what you pollute today and you can start paying dividends again? They're really simple decisions that could be made.

31:40And it's a lack of leadership. Yeah, I'm with you. And I can think of at least another 10 examples. But I was reading the IMF paper. So they do a monthly paper on, I think it's core. or let me find it. It's the finance and development paper. And I was really intrigued as to what they think would be the answers to some of these regulatory and productivity pushes and efficiency gains pushes and kind of setting the scene for how policy can be set. And they came up with some really just like kind of, a bit like the aspects that you mentioned, Angie, some really loose things that don't really make sense or how do you action that thing?

32:21Like shift resources from less productive terms, less productive firms to more productive ones. How the heck do you do that? Economic policy should focus on smaller, younger firms. Larger incumbents focus on protecting market share rather than fostering innovation. Fine. What's the answer to that? Provide tax credits and grants for early stage innovation. Great. What? What does that look like? Reduce barriers to entry for new players. So I kept reading these lists in this report again. And what do you think? You're a bunch of smart people. and we never quite got there. It's all corporate speak, isn't it?

32:56And I mean... Yeah, it's almost like it's just like, let me just write down the most obvious thing that I can think of that's been hackneyed around for the last 10 years and complete the report. It's like, just give me something, man, woman. I think grants is another great example, right? Why do governments give out grants? Grants should be the purview of, you know, universities and genuinely solving unknowns in science. Small companies should not be given grants, they should be given contracts to deliver something. The government should give up contracts to companies to deliver X, Y, Z by a certain date.

33:37And that forces the company to behave commercially. It forces them to build a product and not become just an R &D shop, which is not what startups should be. so it's exceptionally frustrating and you just it's hard it's hard to unpick how much of it is just people who aren't smart enough and how much of it is inertia and sort of incumbent behavior and how much of it is outside lobby pressure that prevents these decisions there's two other things I'd love to touch on very quickly one is the UK just the The NHS in the UK just rejected a contract for an AI product, which is proven because it's been tested in the NHS to reduce breast cancer deaths by up to 15 % by working as a companion to radiologists.

34:34And the government's just not rolled, decided not to roll that out, not because they're choosing a different company to do it, but because they're under pressure from clinicians not to roll out AI, which actually goes against the hypocritical. You've got an opportunity to save up 15 % of people. And because you're scared about your job, you're lobbying not to roll out AI. Yet Starmer just did a speech yesterday about how he's going to revolutionize the NHS. So, you know, one hand saying one thing on the other hand, and literally that was his office, the assistant that made that decision. So, I mean, that's one.

35:10And the second thing is just the most basic sort of commercial sense. Another one would be a great one would be spaceports in the UK. Instead of, we don't have any spaceports, actually, the proper vertical launch spaceports. We have Cornwall spaceports. And instead of kind of focusing on, well, should we get one working first? Let's get one working and maybe we should actually build one which could capture some of the cash that's going into space launch. because the UK is brilliantly positioned for polar orbit, but actually all the money, like 99 % of the money, is in medium to heavy launch, not this light, like sub 400 kilogram launch.

35:49So what does the UK do? The UK spends like 10 years saying, oh, we're going to have multiple spaceports and rolls out licenses very slowly, it's like four or five places, and the tiny bit of money, the literally few million pounds, it spreads out across all these sites because there's a political agenda to do that, to like say, oh, Cornwall's got a bit, and Scotland's got a bit and this has got a bit instead of actually going what is the goal and what's the shortest path to get there maybe we need one space board that actually works to start with so let's put all the money there pick the best site and when we've got one we can think about a second one it is process focused not outcome focused and any entrepreneur I'm very conscious that we are sounding like three grumpy old men we are don't give the game away the all in guys it's worked really well for them except we yeah we need to get we need to get a bit more political um i'm very conscious of time there's there's one thing that i was really intrigued by and i'd love your thoughts on so the ceo of klarna has just sacked off salesforce and workday two of their big sas provisions in the business citing ai as the solution to boost revenue i think by per employee by 75 % and they're looking at a 25 % reduction in marketing spend.

37:11And Sebastian, I am never going to pronounce his surname, is looking at AI to solve these challenges within the organization. So my question to you both is, are we going to see more large organizations sack off their SaaS products, whatever they may be, to bring in-house, to build agentic workflows, to use AI to replace the services that they're paying as SaaS solutions. Mads, do you want to kick this one off? Yes, I think the short answer is yes, we will. I think the main reason is that the market is in flux. Many of the things we used SaaS to do, quite a standardized way to process a workflow, they're going to be completely upended by AI, by LLMs, by what's happening today.