E604 | This Week in European Tech with Dan, Mads, Lomax & Andrew

26:59And we've seen others do the same. Cohere has raised new money. Part of that is coming from AMD. Of course, they want to try and lock Cohere into part of their tech stack. And so it goes. We've seen Modula raise money to challenge NVIDIA, which just goes to show how big the prize is and how many people are wanting to try and get a piece of this pie. So are we in a bubble? Well, I mean, certainly there is froth, but I don't think this market is going to collapse in the next couple of months. I think it's got plenty more of runway to go. Yes, at some point there will be a correction. There'll be a major correction, right?

27:33It always happens. It happens every time. But that doesn't mean that a lot of the investments that are happening now aren't going to be productive, just as was the case 25 years ago. Well, there is a little bit of circularity going on. Amazon and Google buying and investing in Antropic, Microsoft with OpenAI. Microsoft original$1 billion in OpenAI is now$14 billion. Amazon investing$8 billion into Anthropic. Google investing to OpenAI spending$30 billion with Oracle, committing to another$300 billion over a five-year commit. And even Meta, who's building their own infrastructure, they've signed a deal, a$10 billion deal with Google Cloud, obviously while planning the$600 billion investment or whatever Mark Zuckerberg whispered under his breath.

28:17Is that what you wanted us to say, Mr. President, in the Oval Office? So there's a lot of circularity going on in there, but there is also a lot of fundamental activity. But it does feel a bit bubbly. Lomax, what would you focus on? Well, no, I was just thinking, look, I mean, you know, let's just look at some numbers. Let's look at price to earnings, right, in NASDAQ, for example. So now I think trailing 12 months, we're at roughly 32 times in NASDAQ 100 against a kind of historic average of around 25 26 so it's higher but it's not like bubble bubble higher you know as mads has touched on some and well and all the big tech guys have already admitted this like some of this some of this capex is going to not yield the return that people are expecting everyone is in this platform shift mindset and we use ai we invest in ai products we've used them every day we see the the power that they can um they can drive and we've seen the adoption and so this this is there is some there is substance to what's going on my big fear on a slightly longer term is that when people look back is the productivity gains that we get from ai at the at the kind of macro level aren't as big as everyone's expecting i wish you wouldn't be surprised if that's what happens yeah which means that spend will cool off a bit you know i'm looking at some of these vertical AI companies now, and they are going from 0 to 10 million of ARR in 10 months.

29:49That's relevant because there's a lot of buy-in at like the CTO level from this, from the board level, from the chief executive down to the people who are actually buying this stuff. There's a lot of budget for this now, but you know, at some point someone's going to be demanding productivity gains off the back of that. And if they're not seen, then there will be a cooling off of budgets, which will flow through to all of the stuff we just talked about, you know, less demand for ai less demand for compute you know how much do we need this this is this is what's on my mind is how much compute do we actually how many data centers how much energy provision it's it's um you know you know look i think this is look to history and actually someone to go on a tangent but it's just that it's illustrate a point i saw a tulips is that where you go no i'm going to paddle courts and i was reading an article an article a couple of weeks ago about the paddle boom i mean it's a paddle boom in stockholm where they've just built more paddle courses yeah you know and there's like photos of all like just like paddle courts all over the shop that are now standing empty right and so my point is is that it's kind of if you any look at you can talk about tulips you can talk about the internet and.com people are going to over over invest and be over exhumed because it's just like they want to miss the boat That's going to happen, I think.

31:08But the reason why I started what I just said at Fundamentals is at the fundamental level, we are not smoking too much dope at the moment. Yeah? We're a bit high, but we're not completely off reservation. Yes. Not super nuts. Well, because look, I mean, because these guys, look, I mean, NVIDIA has gone from$250 million of gross profit per quarter to$25 billion in two years. That's real money. That's cash. So, you know, people are buying this stuff. Yeah, of course. Absolutely. But so for every time somebody says that, right, somebody else will say, well, great. But for every time Cursor's got a million of revenue, they're spending$2 million with Anthropic, that's spending$3 million with AWS, that's spending$7 million with NVIDIA, right?

31:59So it's negative margins all the way up the stack. And where does that end? And, of course, the Cursor guys, they'll say, well, the cost of computers is going to come down because we're going to have much, much better inference models. Well, that's going to impact somebody somewhere. Of course. And, you know, I think, so the thing is, we're just, we're all looking at this and we all know there's going to be a huge pie. And I think it's just, it's obvious to me that nobody can say with certainty exactly who's going to capture the profit longer term. What we've seen from prior trends is that it usually starts in the hardware layer, right?

32:32So you had IBM capturing that you You couldn't even buy the machines, right? They captured all the profit with hardware, and then it shifted to software. You had around the dot-com boom. It was mostly hardware in the beginning. It's Sun Microsystems. You had EMC. You had Cisco. That's where the profit was captured, and then it moved up the stack, and it moved to software and applications. I think we're seeing some of the same thing again now. NVIDIA is capturing everything. They've got the chokehold, but there's going to be a lot more competition there, and you're going to see the value move up the stack, up to the application layer.

33:01So I think that's going to be history repeating itself. yeah and actually in a way so so so there's there's the productivity gains that i talked about people being um less happy with the results from that but i think there's also just like the commoditization of what happens at the level mad's just talked about everything gets cheaper and that that's where there's going to be a massive cooling off that's probably why i wouldn't be buying nvidia now for example i don't not investment advice but andrew are you are you gonna chime in something here upsidey i mean i think the the need for compute is going to be exponential for a while the unknown is when you get a step change in technology which will commoditize it um you know if if nvidia doesn't buy the company that comes up with something that's a step change different that uses 100 times less power or fusion power surprises us and comes online much sooner than we thought you know lots of things can happen and we we often think about technology and gradual changes, but it doesn't.

33:58Something becomes commercially scalable and that technology then turns everything upside down very, very quickly. And that's partly why the markets we work in are so exciting. So I don't think there's a data center bubble yet. I think there is probably a bubble in some of the application layer AIs, as we've talked about before. What's quite interesting when you look at the, going back to startup land, the US, I think about two thirds of all US VC dollars in the last year to have gone into AI, but only a quarter in Europe. So again, is that Europe and the UK not seeing just how big this opportunity is?

34:31Because sure, you'll be able to turn around and say, well, look at all those dollars that were wasted in those companies who went bust, but this is a power law game. So of course, from that two thirds of all US VC dollars, from those enormous rounds, all of which in the US are still about, you know, a half to two thirds larger and higher valuations than the valuations in the UK, there's still that valuation arbitrage, there will be some huge winners, which will pay for and create ongoing companies that we'll hear about for the next 20 years. So there is still this disconnect on comfort. There's a lack of comfort in throwing large amounts of money at what is the future that we all know the future is.

35:12And I think that's reflected back into where we see VC money going still in the UK and the US. Yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk about some of the more riskier issues around AI and the cyber attacks that have been going on. And JLR in the UK is obviously still closed. I think it's three weeks in. So AI is increasing risk and creating more issues around cyber attacks. There's creating better phishing, impersonation, social engineering, automating scanning and attack orchestration faster exploit discovery and obviously new techniques so ai is pushing the cyber issues across all of the large organizations that we need and know and many of the smaller ones we had co-op transunion marks and spencers and even the vc firm insight has been affected in the last year so i don't know if anyone's got any thoughts is it just a case that ai ai will solve itself and there's an there's an ai to solve the AI that's enabling more of these cyber attacks?

36:12I don't know if anyone's got any thoughts on what's happening with cyber? Yeah, the issues at JLR are very real. As you say, we're three weeks in. We have tens of thousands of vehicles that are being impacted and production is delayed. We have tens, if not hundreds of thousands of supply chain jobs at risk. We have suppliers laying off their workforce. We have companies that threaten bankruptcy. This is a big thing. This is a group of hackers that have brought a kind of 15 billion pound company to its knees and a massive supply chain and it's got systemic risks for for the for the country um and it sort of begs the question when does cyber damage spill over into something that that we would look more of as as a sort of a kinetic attack on our country right if you know if you know if a foreign power had flown in and bombed for billions of pounds worth of infrastructure we would consider that an act of war And so what's the correct response here?

37:07It does seem to me that we have kind of, we've moved to a new DEFCON here. It's a new level of threat to our economy and to our national security. And it justifies a more serious response, perhaps also in the context of some of the more, perhaps not kinetic, but certainly very physical intrusions we've had from Russia in parts of Europe here over the last few weeks. Andrew anything from you on cyber and the AI connection and what we can do about it perhaps yeah I mean the the cyber attacks keep increasing I think uh Russia is responsible now for the for the most number of sort of proactive um cyber attacks internationally um it was North Korea and Russia wasn't it but when they like 80 80 percent of all attacks something crazy yeah I mean any any report any graph you look at always going sort of going up up to the right um there There are about a thousand companies and institutions reporting significant ransomware incidents in Germany just last year.

38:07And that's reflected across Europe and the UK and both on interstate and private crime. I think the activity from CrowdStrike reported last year, an increase of Chinese source activity across all sectors up by nearly 200%. So it's only going one way. Some of that is AI driven, some of it is geopolitical driven. But yeah, it's going to be a rough ride. What's the right response? I mean, Andrew, do you have any thoughts on that? I think make sure GCHQ is very well funded. Until recently, it wasn't. They have increased the funding. So that's something and an area actually where we do have superb skills and we should not under-resource that.

38:52We can be a global leader even versus the US. You know, my understanding is we were ahead on the US in some of that stuff until recently. So that's an area that I think we should triple down on both to protect our nation state, but that those skills and that knowledge obviously filter into the private sector as well. And yeah, make sure we're funding the businesses that are going to protect our other businesses. Opportunity for startups, do you think? Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent opportunity in cybersecurity. What's the biggest exit that happened this year? Whiz, 34 billion. What's the biggest exit that came out of the UK in the last couple of years?

39:30Darktrace, bought by Termo Bravo, 7 billion Where were they for JLR? Well, but yeah, you say that But the point is, cyber has always been Cyber's from an investment perspective And I don't know how much cyber you guys do It's been a very technical, quite difficult area Sometimes with funky business models A lot of this kind of managed service provider kind of model Like you need to It was generally reserved for the specialists And maybe it still should be But it's certainly, you know the proliferation of AI. And then you talk about physical AI, the proliferation of kind of robotics. We are being driven around by AVs, by robots, and we have more robots in our home, not just doing our hoovering, but doing everything.

40:10The more connected we become, the bigger a threat cyber becomes. So cyber is an investment. It's not like a new thing. We've already just seen it. The two of the biggest exits in the last 24 months in the UK and the US have been in cyber. So, you know, it's already there in front of us, but I think it's only going to go up and up as a concern. You know, just if you talk to a, you know, small to medium or even, you know, family business or business, you know, private equity backed, cyber is top of the risk register. Absolutely top of it. And I bet you they've underinvested in it because it's boring, it's technical, it's difficult, and it's constantly changing.

40:47It's not a discretionary spend anymore. And I think it was viewed as a discretionary spend. Yeah, but it's funny you say that though, Andrew, I bet you, you know, a lot of old economy companies is only starting to wake up to this now, right? Yeah. It's very complicated. But it's a huge market though as well. I mean, I think the cyber security market until recently was sort of a quarter of a trillion. I think it's projected to become half a trillion by 2030. So, I mean, that's a big market. Bigger than that, I would have thought. Exactly. And it's something that people cannot ignore. I just my sense is the cat and mouse is very much in the cat camp where I'm not sure for an organization the size of JLR what they could have done to have prevented the attack I don't know I don't know how it how it came in but there are so many smart ways and the human is always the weakest link that that crappy password or that thing left on the train that or that USB stick or whatever it might be so I'm just wondering what's the reality of being able to genuinely protect these massive behemoth companies when you have a not very smart human who has to interact with the machine that can be attacked in so many ways also also had no cyber security insurance in place oh jlr didn't no oh oh so all those listeners ceos out there ceos out there right now listening to this podcast recommend your you check your insurance policy has cyber coverage.

42:14What about the world where we use more agentic workflows in our businesses? Right? How immune are they to cyber? Probably not. What could go wrong, Lomax?

42:26Yeah, my AI disabling your AI. We have a startup doing exactly that called Gatling X. Get in the plug, my man. Get in the plug. You go for it. Well, listen, let's stay in defense and then we're going to roll back to H1B because I do want to touch on the the talent flow if there is, but let's stay in defense. So again, there is a lot of noise, not only about AI, but also about defense. Russia has buzzed the tower now in Poland, Estonia, Denmark, and Romania, allegedly. Maybe I need to use the word allegedly, but it looks like there is some Russian naughty NATO poking going on. Then we had Trump's UN comments about Ukraine, which has obviously excited defense stocks in Europe.

43:07And on top of that, there's lots of US cash still pouring in. Analysts suggesting that Europe will see an annual average growth rate of 7 % in defence across the next 10 years, which would be nice. I think there's some crossover and some blurring and blending of that defence spend that will go into the broader economy. European Aerospace and Defence Index has tripled since Russia invaded Ukraine. So maybe to Mads' point, maybe we are already in World War III. We just don't know it yet. I guess the broader question is how will this kind of come down to startups and investing in our world? But Mads, to start with, can you give us a little bit of a backstory or just fill some gaps for us?

43:47I think you've touched on some of it already, Dan. On September 9th, 23 Russian drones entered Poland. Some Dutch F-16s shut down some of them. And these were, to my knowledge, the first NATO shots fired in this conflict. and probably also the first time many of the countries here, Poland, Estonia and others have been invoking the Article 4 of the NATO treaty. So we've had issues in Copenhagen over the last few days. We've had Copenhagen airports shut down. We've had Alborg airports shut down and others with sort of multiple drone sightings. And the defense minister of Denmark came out earlier today and sort of said, look, this is not a prank by some kids.

44:32This looks like a very sort of a well-planned, well-coordinated operation. And so it seems that there's a clear pattern here. Russia is violating these airspaces. And the question is, what are we going to do about it? Trump has been very hawkish. He said, you know, NATO should just shoot down whatever Russian aircraft comes close. And we saw that that was what the Turks did. I think in 2015, a Russian jet made its way into Turkish airspace and was promptly shut down within 17 seconds. It's raising the question whether we should just take a similar approach. But it's clear that we have to have a response.

45:08We can't just pretend as if nothing is happening. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Lomax, what would you add? No, I think, I mean, I was going to go to the Turkish example. I think it's a great example. I mean, Erdogan is not one to mess about. I mean, the Turks and the Russians, I mean, there really is no love lost between them, right? So I think, you know, maybe it was a clear cut case. But in that case, it was incursion for a few seconds, as Matt said, and they shot it down and a Russian pilot actually died in that. Right. He actually got shot. He got shot down when he was parachuting when he was parachuting down.

45:37Yeah. So I mean, so like it was pretty it was dealt with with a firm hand by the by the Turks. And well, what have you seen since then? I mean, you haven't seen any more incursions in Turkish airspace, at least that I know of. So, you know, these this sort of firm approach. And actually, it's good to see. I mean, Donald Trump, as we know, changes like the wind. But at least this week in New York, he's been on the kind of firmer, firmer side of the Ukraine-Russia dispute. So that's good to see. And ultimately, as my old headmaster used to say, I bully the bully. Yeah, well, you've got to stand up.

46:12That's what strongmen allegedly listen to. And yeah, I mean, Trump has done a very good job of just going, well, there you go. I think you can win all your territory back. Over to you. Off you go. NATO low-ups? I'd say any big conflict that involves NATO or other European countries will likely start small unless it's an all-out attack, sort of nuclear-esque. I think Russia, if it is Russia, is testing, probing, annoying, irritating to see what our response would be. We saw that on a larger scale testing with Crimea before invading Ukraine. Don't forget Estonia, I think it was in 2007. uh there was a wasn't there a russia-backed attack on a cyber attack that shut down sort of banks and media and government etc um that which invoked article 4 of nato but it ended up in consultations which translates into a you know non-military response and so the response was very much political and defensive so you know if there's an immediate threat obviously there'll be there'll be a military response to that but i think almost what's more interesting is to we can argue whether it's you know a false flag exercise or conspiracy theorists whether it's russia or not but what it does highlight is just how vulnerable europe is and i think that's what we need to focus on we need to focus on how we ensure that europe has greater resilience and what we do about that and that's more important almost than you know attributing who's these drones were in my head well mad you you've got some of the the defense stocks figures haven't you what's going on in reality.

47:45So Ryan Metall, the German defense armaments manufacturer, they're up like 175 % or so this year. So they're worth about the same as Volkswagen. And I think you've been saying before the defense is Germany's new auto industry, and they do need a replacement because the automotive makers have been struggling. And we know the BAE systems, they're at record highs, they've got a 28 billion pound order book. We know that kind of with NATO adopting a sort of three and a half percent GDP core defense spending, plus another percentage point and a half for cyber and infrastructure. There is, you know, hundreds of billions of euros and pounds being spent over the next few years.

48:23It's a generational rearmament. And we need that because we have been behind. We've sort of been sleeping under this security blanket provided by the United States for decades. And so it is time to invest and to wake up. No, I think to be fair, like that investment is happening, right? The governments have made the announcements. I mean, even Boris Pistorius today was at the space conference in Germany talking about the huge investments that Germany's going to be making in defense and space in the coming years. So we've seen these budgets already. We had the Strategic Defense Review in the UK earlier this year.

48:55The numbers will trickle through. I mean, we all know these things do take time to trickle through. But even if you look at the private markets, unlike the public ones that Matt just talked about, you know there's been two and two and a half billion euros have been raised since the start of 2022 in early state or private markets european defense techs that's one and a half billion in the first seven months of this year that is up from just 30 million in 2020 and 150 million in 2021 so these numbers are up big time and we now have three unicorns helsing quantum systems and tekiba that have been minted in the last you know 12 to 18 months and you know helsing has raised over 1 billion valued at 12 billion today.

49:34In fact, today they just announced their new unmanned fighter, which looks hugely exciting. It will be coming online, you know, in the next two years. So we're looking at kind of iteration cycles that are a little bit more akin to traditional tech. You know, if you look at the kind of, I think it's F-CAS, the current, you know, next generation fighter jet being developed by the Germans, the French and the Spanish. I mean, they're constantly fighting. They're trying to kick the French out, I think, because the French want to, you know, they're not getting a big enough share of the pie. So these things, you know, when you talk about next generation fighter jets, you're talking about decades.

50:06You know, I think you still need fighter jets and drones or potentially, or maybe they'll be obsolete by the time they come out. But if you look at what's happened with Andura in the US, but you're seeing now with quantum systems, with Tekeva, with Helsing in Europe, we're moving to a more iterative, kind of faster paced development cycle. A bit like what we're seeing at the micro level in Ukraine with drones, for example. And so that can only be a good thing. So the money's flowing in, the speed is there, and actually it's happening. But unfortunately, the buyers here are governments. So this stuff, necessarily, it takes time.

50:41They're keen. They're keen. They're keen. But you're still selling to governments. You still have procurement cycles. Sometimes you have, and there are, and you talk to founders, each government does have little pots of money that can move incredibly quickly, almost overnight, and jump normal procurement cycles. but most of it goes through the traditional procurement channels. And, you know, as Mads just said, as we've been sleeping under the security blanket of the US, there is a lot of basic stuff, you know, barracks, lighter ladders, like really basic stuff that they haven't even got. HR platforms.

51:17Yes. All kinds of weird and wonderful infrastructure. Well, as we talked about before, because of GDPR, the Germans can't even find their reservists because they've redacted the names or the addresses or something. So, you know, there's a lot of basic stuff. So, you know, this is all great. The numbers I just talked about are creating. It's gone from 30 million in a year to, you know, one and a half billion this year. I mean, this is like exponential. Obviously, the other ingredient here is talent. We're seeing smart tech founders. Let's not forget, you know, eight, nine years ago, or not even like seven, eight years ago, all of the tech talent in the US was resigning when Amazon and Microsoft were doing these defense deals.

51:55You know, we were in the kind of peak woke kind of tech employee kind of era. Now, with Enduro, with Sironic, bring it on. And so actually smart, the smart founders and smart employees and engineers are wanting to work on these problems because they can see the big grizzly bear on our doorstep. So, well, let's talk about talent. I'm very conscious of time. But before we sign off, I do want to talk about talent and H-1B visas. Now, if you don't know what an H-1B visa is, it's effectively, it's a way for American companies to hire foreign talent. And from what I can see, it's a lot of Indian and Chinese talent, mainly and mainly tech.

52:33I also wondered how many of the existing CEOs in tech started their careers on an H-1B visa. And it's all of them. It's Google, Tesla, IBM, Microsoft, Adobe, all started their careers on H-1B. So it's a big deal. And there's about 85 ,000 issued each year. Now, here's what's happened. On September the 19th, Trump signed an order imposing a$100 ,000 fee for H-1B visa holders. And it wasn't quite sure how that was going to be applied. So there were lots of people abroad who were on an H-1B trying to panic get in before Sunday so they didn't have to pay$100 ,000. However, that's whether that was backtracked as policy or whether that was not intended in the first place.

53:14That wasn't how it was going to be rolled out. And it is for new visas, non-existing visas. But it's a bit of a shot in the foot, we think, especially since the previous cost or the prior cost for an H-1B was about$1 ,500. It's like it's gone up massively. So obviously Trump is aiming to protect local jobs and American jobs, but it feels like a shot in the foot and it feels like an opportunity for Europe. Mads, is that true or nonsense? I think you're spot on. I mean, it's clear that there were corporates that abused the H-1B visa system and some reform was probably overdue. But this seems to be a massive own goal.

53:53And it's a gift to the United States competitors everywhere. And I think London is probably in prime position to take advantage of this. You know, it's a perfect fit for, we didn't really get to cover this 29th regime idea earlier. But the idea of 24-hour visa for all roles above 100K, I think, is an obvious thing for us. You could put a small fee on it, kind of administrative. But great to say to all these tech companies, whether it's our own startups or startups from elsewhere, yet you want to build up your AI labs, you want to build up your tech labs, come to London, easy access for top talent.

54:30Let's do it. I wonder how that will play with the populist anti-immigration chat. chat but and Lomax what do you reckon I'm less I'm less optimistic um than than Mads I would say what this probably plays into the hands of is the big tech companies in the US because they don't care right big big tech it doesn't matter but medium and small hundred thousand dollars is a big check yeah yeah but if you're hiring you know engineers you're paying 300 400 500 grand a year too and you've put all the effort into finding them and recruiting them and whatever and they really are the best it's an absolute rounding error so yeah sadly it does there is an opportunity for for sure for europe but you know you know sadly what's happening in the uk at the moment is that um you know net migration is up but skilled migration is down is this a real issue with it yeah and so yeah it's an opportunity for sure but i'm just like i'm just less optimistic that it will actually flow through because you know don't forget the wage comparison yeah like Like the US, even the startups in the US are going to be paying a lot more, right?

55:33So yeah, there is the 100 grand issue, but UK still needs, it's not as attractive on a wage perspective, yeah? So I think that is, it's not an overnight, this is not an overnight sudden influx that we're going to see. I think we're overdoing it, Lomax. I think we're overdoing it. I don't think the majority of these roles are 400 grand a year roles. Yes, of course, they're in the mix, but there will be lots of roles that are in the 80 to 150K range. I'm not so sure, man. I think that's the sweet spot. Over 50 % of these are taken by the FAANGs, right? They're taken by 10 big tech companies, basically, and 50 % of the H1Bs.

56:05And the rest is a long-term of the Deloitte, Accenture, Indian IT, large Indian IT outsourcing companies. I think universities and academic institutions, especially those tight on budget, might think twice before now doing it. But what about the cultural side, Andrew? Do you think there's any issue around it being kind of a, like a two finger salute to anyone that wants to come. I don't think people care. People go, people are selfish. They're not going to make their career decisions based upon whether, you know, Trump's sentiment, they're going to make it based upon where they want to live for their kids, their future, what they're going to say.

56:43So I'm with Lomax. I think it will have a marginal impact, frankly. Not as if, sorry, reform, 35 % in the polls, 100 ,000 people marching with Tommy, whatever he's frigging called, you know, with Stephen Yax. You know what, Lomax, they're not going to care about 10 ,000 AI developers. And you know that. That's not the people that are the target of this demonstration. No, those people are mad, but it's sentiment. It's that sentiment of like, is the UK open for business? And is it welcoming to people from around the world? Yeah, maybe slightly more than America. Your view is people are not going to want to come here.

57:15Is that the idea? No, Dan asked the question. is like, is there a perception that, you know, this gives to people that, you know, the US is not such a friendly place to migrate to. And I think he's totally right. But I'm not, I'm suggesting that if you look at where Europe is at the moment, and I'm sitting in a country which is traditionally very like left of center and it's just passing their new law against, not against foreigners, but their foreigners law now, which is tightening up a lot of - Like you. And I'd be careful. Take the foreigners out. But my point is that you look across Europe with AFD, with Kiko, with Orban, across everywhere, with Front National, whatever, in France, and where reform is in the polls.

58:00I'm just suggesting that to the outside, Europe is not the most welcoming place, maybe a little bit more welcoming than the US. But if you're a top engineer out of India, it's like, I don't think it's going to... you know i've got something to finish on actually dan which uh because i didn't get my word in earlier like max is talking about talking about the fcas uh the floor is yours my dear man he was talking about the the the european yeah exactly which is your domain so i should i should not well i should not encroach on that andrew well being an aerofile geek i was just going to say that it's fascinating to watch it play out and us not we have to deal with that because obviously with the Eurofighter Typhoon, we were part of that program.

58:42But basically it's the Dassault, which is a family-run company, kick up a fuss and trying to get more in charge and stipulate, you know, what the Germans should or should not build. The Germans said, well, maybe we'll eject from this coalition of the willing. And Dassault said, fine, go away, we'll build ourselves, we don't need you. And of course they have with the, now I can't remember the name of the jet because I'm not going to advertise it, but the French, the Dassault Mirage, is it? I can't remember But there's a wonderful quote There's a wonderful quote We have a long tradition in the UK Of aircraft building And Sir Sidney Cam Who built the Hurricane Which is the sister aircraft Of the Spitfire Had a wonderful quote He said all in the 60s He said all modern aircraft Have four dimensions Span, length, height and politics Ah, I love it We are running out of time Lovely people We're going to pick one deal of the week Lomax, I'm going to pick yours N-scale, tell us So N-Scale has just announced today, so this is a UK AI data center startup only founded in 2023, have raised a massive 1.1 billion round at a 3 billion valuation, becoming Europe's newest unicorn.

59:55Recently signed deals with OpenAI and Microsoft to grant access to their facility in Norway. It's now raised over a billion dollars. The round is led by Aker, A-K-E-R, not a household name in tech investing. No, I was expecting an American. Well, as always in Europe, it's a corporate effectively, as far as I can tell. It's a Norwegian energy and industrial group. Come on, N-Scale. Let's do more. I also saw the data center push, the broader data center push that I think Jensen was talking about into the UK. And obviously the 120 ,000 black cord chips coming in. So they're good. We should give a shout out to Aura as well, Dan.

1:00:34I mean, you wanted to talk about that. Surely we should talk about that. I've got an aura ring and I've always loved them. I just never realized the scale of the business. So they have just raised$875 million Series E, bringing their valuation to$11 billion. Five and a half million rings sold. What? It's like, it's just a health ring. I was like, what the frick? Anyway, we have run out of time. We are going to move on. Thank you so much, gentlemen, and I will catch you all next week. I'd love to see you all. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

1:01:12Upside!