E645 | Seb Agertoft, Evolution & Mike Reiner, 432 Legacy: Venture beyond: Trauma vs Purpose

0:00We, of course, with the podcast are always trying to connect and champion the people that are building European venture. However, today we're zooming in on something often left unspoken in our world, the Inner Gamer Fenton. We're doing that with our good friend, Mike. And of course, also Sepp Agertoft, which I tried to pronounce as internationally as I could, because it is a very dangerous name. Our guest, Sepp, is a former product exec turned executive coach and partner at Evolution, Silicon Valley's go-to coaching firm. and SAP works with founders and VCs tackling some of the world's hardest problems, supporting them not just in scaling their companies, but in actually staying sane, grounded and fulfilled while doing it.

0:42But as I say always, we all need to recognize that we all carry a chip on our shoulder as people that are building in this venture industry. We are here to have impact. We're here to change things. But that ambition often comes with a ton of pressure and we really think that no one should go at that alone. And for that reason, we're trying to bring more of these episodes together with Mike Reiner from 432 Legacy. And one of these episodes is, of course, today's ones with Sepp, who is one of the premier coaches that we have active here in the European ecosystem. Before we start the show, a quick note.

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3:13Let's start acting. This show is not investment advice, and the hosts of this episode may be invested in the funds and companies featured. Gentlemen, Mike, maybe you'll say a few words why you thought SEP was the right guest for today's pod. What I love about SEP is that he brings significant product knowledge and helping founders with a deep coaching approach, where I really want to dive a bit deeper into. So we're going to touch his product background. We're going to touch the way he looks at coaching and hopefully going to touch a bit more about Seb as a person and why it really matters to him.

3:48So I'm very excited. It's also part of me getting to know him better and diving into it. So, yeah, I'm very excited. Firstly, thank you both for having me on and for the kind introduction. As mentioned, I'm Seb Eagatoft, if we're pronouncing it for a Danish audience or Agatoft if we want to go international. and yeah I work as a coach primarily to VC-backed founders, co-founding teams and leadership teams I'm also a partner at Evolution, so Evolution is a firm kind of co-op if you like of about 80 of us who are partners across the US and Europe, kind of like the Avengers of coaching and leadership development, so yeah a bunch of folks with deep expertise in that space and yeah a lot of our work is within the technology sphere primarily.

4:42And as Mike mentioned, I have a background prior to being a coach full-time. I had a background in products, which spanned a number of different industries and companies, but included the likes of eBay. So that big company experience, then landed at a company called GoCardless, now a multi-unicorn payments company. And then Telego Health, where I joined very early and led all things products as the company grew and scaled and raised a lot of venture money along the way. So, yeah, that's a little touch on where I come from. Why does one choose to go from a very successful product management career to suddenly do coaching?

5:29Yeah, it's a good question. one that I get asked plenty and one with like a few different threads. I would say the kind of the very honest take is, you know, I stumbled and fell into a product career. I studied economics and management at a university. There was some statistic at the time that said 98 % of grads who did my course at my university either became an investment banker or they became a strategy consultant. and both of those didn't feel like the right options to me at the time and I'd always been curious a bit of a builder a bit entrepreneurial so ultimately took a took a role in a startup as an analyst and the nature of startups as we all know is they're chaotic and in that chaos there's lots of opportunities so within within a few months they kind of said to me hey you're pretty good at this stuff do you want to take this on this as i later found out was basically product so stumbled and fell into that world had plenty of success and plenty of steps along that road that i really enjoyed but truthfully when it came to you know honestly reflect on like what motivates me the thing that really motivates me is people building teams coaching people seeing those people succeed more so than technology so you know that that was was definitely an important kind of thread there and then the you know the the deeper scoop here should we say is or a couple maybe one is just seeing the tech ecosystem seeing where things go wrong seeing the the volume of just like great ideas and great people that sort of get knocked off course along along the road for reasons that feel like they should be solvable and avoidable.

7:20I think there's just so much waste and so much opportunity to do a better job there. And something that maybe we'll come on and talk to a little bit more here, but for my own journey and part of my road in life, I grew up not spiritual, not religious. These things were not part of my kind of lexicon or part of my life, but various events in my life in my, in my kind of early twenties sort of set me on a bit of a path there. That path led me to first training in yoga and became an Ashtang the yoga teacher. From there I started learning and then eventually leading and sort of teaching meditation.

8:00So that kind of thread of, shall we say human development has been a kind of long run theme for me. And then, and then coaching felt like the next step along that journey in a way in which I could bring this sort of tech world version of me and the more spiritual and other parts of me together. What's also good to clarify a little bit as we dive into this is what is coaching for you? Because oftentimes coaching is confused as with mentoring and other activities. So yeah, what is coaching for you? It's worth saying, as you've said, that coaching is not a regulated term. So under the umbrella of coaching, we see this sort of like multitude of sins going on and uh it feels like in recent years coaching and coach became kind of sexy as a title and so lots of people who were maybe like called themselves a consultant three years ago maybe called themselves a coach now because it just feels a bit more off the time to me at the heart of like what coaching is is it's you know a kind of non-directive relationship built around the developmental needs of the coachee and you know there are coaches who focus in very narrow kind of areas maybe you know communication for example and you know coaches who have take that kind of deep and narrow slice the way i approach it is much broader so i think about like the human as a whole and and think about kind of three dimensions so uh what i sometimes call the i the we and the it so the i being the kind of the personal dimension what is it about you you know how you show up the you know the parts of you that you know well and also the the parts that are buried deep down and the things you might unknowingly be beholding to be true then there's kind of the we so what are the interpersonal dynamics at play within your life within your startup and then the it is more of the company specifics you know the the strategy the processes the structures you know and how do we bring all those things kind of into alignment so yeah i think at its core although there are lots of different areas of coaching and people who specialize in those different areas at its core essence it's sort of it's non-directive it's you know developmental and focused on the individual and usually with that it comes with this sort of balance and this is maybe more a stylistic thing but this balance of like support versus challenge so you know you have some coaches who are very you know create a space that's very nurturing and and and sort of soft and comfortable and then you have others that are real like they're going to light a fire under you um and uh you know i think i think part of the skill in being a being a great coach is sort of knowing knowing when to dial one up versus versus the other Yeah.

10:52It's pretty special that you come at coaching with an accomplished background in startup land. Could you maybe reflect a bit on the value of using a coach, working with a coach that has that background versus one that does not? And also a bit about how you utilize it versus think about not utilizing it? Because I imagine sometimes it's not that beneficial that you actually, you don't want to get into business. You actually want to focus on the founder here. Yeah, it's a good question. And I think coaching is ultimately about fit. So, you know, I wouldn't come into this conversation and say, you know, everyone should have a coach that looks like me or has my profile and, you know, be interested to hear your guys' experience here too and what's worked well for you.

11:45I think people have different needs and different energy needs at different sort of stages of the journey and different parts of their life. I think what my clients value in me is an ability to sort of go with them where they need to go so I tend to work I don't really work with anybody on really short-term basis like a minimum commitment is sort of six months many of my clients I've worked with for much longer time horizons years and part of what makes that successful is you know we build deep trust and have that depth of relationship. And that depth of relationship can kind of span into these different areas.

12:27So I have clients who maybe like one session, we might spend some time delving into something deep and personal and painful and something they've been holding on to that's really affecting the way they're leading. Maybe it affects the way they're showing up as a parent at home, all these other aspects of life. and being able to do that kind of deep individual work. But the next time we speak, we might be talking about preparing for a board meeting or we might be talking about the company strategy. And even those tactical topics have many layers of depth to them. But I guess I pride myself on being able to sort of go where they need to go and not having too much of just always one flavor.

13:14I think you touched an important point there, Andreas, which is even when we go into those tactical spaces or the more company specific spaces I do not see it as my role you know to tell them what their strategy should be or to be you know in that kind of mentoring advisory role it's much more you know helping them kind of get out of their own way you know they're often like my belief is that they have the answers within them they have that kind of inner wisdom they just need to sort of more effectively tap into it and so but i think the fact that i have some of those frames of reference that you know i kind of know how to speak their language and i know the language that might be used in those rooms is is helpful for that reflection and yeah it creates the trust and it sometimes becomes a you know a nice entry point to lead them into those like deeper spaces.

14:11So, you know, if I jump straight into talking about, I don't know, spirituality, for example, there are going to be a ton of people who run a mile, understandably. So yeah, it kind of builds that trust and it gives us that gateway into those conversations. Is it hard for you? Is it hard for you to, you know, with all the product background and when the founder struggles with it, not to jump into this mentor role? Because it is great for the matchmaking where it's great for the founders to relate to you. It's great for you to actually understand what's going on in the boardroom and the different dynamics in the company.

14:43But yet as a coach, right, it's always like staying on the side of really guiding the founder and asking questions and not jumping into advice. I'm just curious. Yeah, you're right. It can be hard. It can be hard for sure. I think this is where I, you know, hold this term coaching. I think people get very bogged down in like let's draw the lines between what's coaching what's advisory what's this what's that like what i want to do is really like tune into the needs of the moment and the individual and think very deeply about like what is it they really want from me here and what's going to best serve them in this moment so i rarely get into you know full advisory mode as such but i might get into moments of like challenge with them and kind of hold the mirror up and say you know are Are you sure?

15:34And I also might, you know, if it feels right and relevant and if they're sort of calling into the space, I also might introduce stories from my own experience that have similar themes, not as a means of saying, hey, here's what I think you should do. but just as a kind of oh let's bring something else in here a new perspective as a bit of a like catalyst for more thought and maybe if you hear my story and you start speaking about my story it gives you a way of reflecting in an objective manner where you can't kind of bring that same objectivity to your own situation so it is hard I do bring some of it in you know you know deliberate but careful manner but yeah there are definitely moments right where you you sort of want to jump the other side of the seat in in all walks of life right i'm sure you guys have been the same maybe it's a loved one maybe it's a colleague and you're just like it's like just yeah let me get in there and sort of fix it for you but i think that's quite a human quite a human impulse we've had my description of coaching you know mike i know you've uh come back from an amazing retreat recently.

16:47I know this topic that you guys are passionate about. So what's been your guys' experience with coaching and how does that line up with what I've described? That's why I love coaches of the background as founders or like specific in the domain because it really, really helps to relate to the founder. But I do see the role of coaching to really help the founder guide them with questions and not to jump too much into advice. And increasingly, you mentioned the retreat as well that Andreas and me talked quite a bit about as well, which is then adding a different dimensions to also on top of it, really get people, in this case, founders and investors into their body and not stay here all the time on this story level where we can explain everything, but to really go more through the experiential part and also go through emotions.

17:33But that's, I think, on a way deeper level for people to process certain things, which I think is fundamental and very little addressed, which is with the somatic system. You know, Mike, I remember the first time we spoke on the phone and I'm like, okay, I've got this Dutch VC guy who's going to call me. Kind of, he's been given my name by somebody else. Not quite sure what to expect. And I think, you know, within the first minute you started talking about somatics and being in the body. I was like, who is, who is this guy? Like, this is, this is cool. This is not what I was necessarily expecting or like the stereotypes in my mind, you know, with a bunch of VCs.

18:12not many of them play in that space and and and talk in those terms i was immediately curious then and i've never really had the opportunity to fully ask you the question but what kind of lit your fire around this topic and and also related to that you know what do you see as your role as a vc in promoting this message or or helping the growth of founders that you might invest in? I think that it's a role more and more VC to help the founder with their personal journey and not just the business stuff. And I feel that in our industry, it's way too much pushing for growth and for metrics and for deliveries.

18:57And thereby actually pushing the individuals, the founders into positions where they maybe get close to the burnout, where like a whole bunch of areas and lives are not acknowledged and where it feels very transactional. So I feel very deeply that that relationship of the founder and investor dynamic needs to change and needs to change to the point where it's really a supportive role because that's at the end of the day what investors are doing. They give money to support, but it's also supporting a founder to grow their business. And in terms of growing their business, that comes the whole leadership part and who they are as a person.

19:34and that's such a big big part of it that is not addressed much like how do i empower people you know who am i as a person what does it mean for my dynamic not just with my co-founders with my employees but also with all the other stakeholders around how do i grow as a person because if you continue to think about how to grow the business and neglect and like how do i grow as a person you lack behind you know so the most important thing i find myself and investing in people is always around that drive for growth, personal growth, and supporting the people. And to answer your question, what really got me deeper into this is as I dive deeper, I realized that that growth needs to take into account the holistic approach of everything.

20:16So that's why we talk about the somatic system as well, because that's a huge part of what it is, how we function, how we express. And there's so much stored here in the body, right? So it's a big component of it. and also when talked to the founders just to be there with full presence to really really listen ask the right questions not just go in the board meeting right into metrics but go like hey how do you feel what's going on with you to really relate and resonate before you right away go to the business matters so I think that's massively important. We all as I said in the beginning we all have a tip on our shoulder that's why we ended up building something in a space where we can have huge impact on the world.

21:00It's partly because we want to affect change, partly because we are self-absorbed, narcissistic guys and girls that want to be applauded by everyone, either because we watched too many action movies or because we had trauma in our childhood or wherever it comes from. We all carry something with us that has put us on this journey to try and build something incredible. I personally have experienced how life changes in life circumstances can make you have to adapt your own route. And for that reason, I see it on myself, the importance of figuring out this journey. If you're a founder for yourself or if you're an investor, making sure that the people you bet on are people that have what it takes.

21:55And it's one thing to have what it takes, but also be able to navigate changes in life in a way that allows you to stay on the path. And also with the people that do stay on the path and do try and continue to build incredible things at incredible cost to everyone around them typically, because that is the fact of the matter. just also try and make sure that they end up at a point at the end of their life or at the end of their successful career that they're happy about because I have so many mentors from earlier in my life that were incredibly successful that achieved everything I ever wanted but who's that Andreas I don't know if I would have done it again because they had to make they made micro choices through their life that ended up in real life circumstances that has now put them in a position where they're wealthy and successful, but where they have definitely lost things along the way that they're sorry that they lost and they are not sure they would make that trade again.

23:03My mission with these episodes where we're talking about this is trying to equip our VC audience with the tools to help founders navigate through this. also test founders beforehand know how to diligence if these are the people to put your money with so you don't put too much pressure on people that shouldn't have that pressure so you don't bet on people put them on the rails on a route that they shouldn't be on because they don't want to make those choices and I think it's so this is where a good VC is so different from a bad VC or an inexperienced angel because it's not just about what the startup and the product and so on is.

23:43It's also about whether it is something that can be unified that works with who the founder is and where the founder wants to go in their life. Because if the founders are 22 years old or whatever, are saying they want to go on the path, but you can see that this is probably not true, but they're saying it because they want your seed money or they want your pre-seed money, whatever. It's so goddamn important that you don't give them that money because it's going to be a failure for you. It's going to be a failure for the founders. You really have to make sure that there's alignment around this.

24:18And some people might think I'm wrong and being a sissy for this. But I think it's so important that we really make sure that we're aligned around the journey we're going on together. And when we're on it, that we then also help each other navigate it. And it's both as co-founders of VC firms. I've seen it there as well. There's also a big misconception in general around speed. Because our industry is all around growth, hyper growth, speed, faster, acceleration. And the reality is that when it comes to certain elements that we want to do, such as thinking strategically and create like in a creative manner, yeah, we need to slow down.

24:59So what we don't discuss much at all is actually balance between acceleration and slowing down. Yeah, it is continuous pushup faster, faster. So if you listen to, like, let's say, interviews with Daniel Eck, as an example, on Spotify, he'll say he spends the first half of the day, he gets up really early in the morning, but, like, I think by now he only gets into the office at 11 a.m., as we said in the recent podcast, and he spends the morning just, like, he goes on long walks, thinks strategically about the company, creates space, slows down so he can think strategically about the company. And I think this part of slowing down is really, really important.

25:34And I find myself also more and more in work to kind of aggressively accelerate when I need to and just have like back-to-back meetings and then hit the brakes really hard. You know, just by like really taking the time to eat, taste the food, you know, take the time to make a tea. Yeah, even just close your eyes and breathe. Pay attention to a breath, you know, and in the weekend, go to nature. These elements matter. Yeah. And I'm not, not discussed much. I think are crucial. Yeah. As you were describing that, I almost had this image in my head of kind of like an orchestra, you know, playing a great piece of music and it's sort of all played at a certain tempo.

26:12There's no light, there's no shade. There's, there's kind of, you start to tune it out. And I, yeah, I almost think that we, you know, there's a, there's a kind of hustle culture that kind of creates this like tempo of just all outpace all of the time. but I think on many levels we're starting to see whether you should think of it through a spiritual lens through a neurological lens you know we're starting to see more and more evidence around why that is just not an optimal way to get the best from yourself you know kind of sucks you know it doesn't feel great and I think a lot of us kind of know that to be true on a kind of deep level, but, but also, you know, align, not making this a kind of soft conversation about spirituality and these, these like, no, no, this is about like, this can be about performance.

27:01This can be, you know, in the land of VC, this can be about ROI. It can be about money. It can be about all of those important business metrics, but that these are paths to get to that outcome, that this is not things, you know, these are things that are working to, to Andreas's point about in alignment rather than against each other. Seb, I know I might have triggered you. I hope I did. When I talked a bit about trauma and the fact that our commitment to doing big and great things in this world oftentimes come from trauma. I know that you think that just as important as trauma as a motivator is purpose.

27:37So being in servitude. Could you talk a bit about that and where you think that there's truth and non-truth in what I just said? And for me, growing up, I would say not spiritual, not religious, very kind of A-type, analytical, born to a Scandinavian management consultant. So very kind of that way of viewing the world. Basically, when I was in my early 20s, my mum ended up in an abusive relationship for a few years on and off. pretty dark time of my life and a time when I went searching for answers to important questions in new places. So that for me, whether we put the label of trauma or whatever you want to call it, these big, significant, negative life experiences can be a driver for positive outcomes, of course.

28:33I think there's some pretty interesting studies, in fact, into Olympians. And there was some paper I read a while back about what they call the super Olympians, the ones who are winning not just a gold medal, but five, ten gold medals. And there is a pretty significant proportion of those who have experienced some major trauma of some description. So trauma can propel people forward. but it can be something that people latch onto and use as a driver for good. And I think that's great. However, I think there's a risk that we glamorize that message. And to go back to my last company, my last company was focused on substance addiction.

29:18I spent hundreds of hours interviewing people with heroin addiction, all sorts of addictions, many of them not the kind of stereotypes in your mind of who you might think of as an addict like i remember speaking to someone who was an exec at a very well-known tech company who told me early in the conversation oh yeah i'm i'm a heroin addict i've overdosed seven times in the last seven years and put myself in hospital and for him you know that that was born out of a place of trauma So, you know, trauma can have these big catalyzing effects and yeah, it can drive success. It can also drive, you know, more counterproductive, catastrophic type of behaviors like addiction and, you know, those kinds of complications.

30:07Can both of you talk a bit about living in servitude or building in servitude in this case, maybe? Because Mike, I know it's super important to you as well. I think that the journey and you talk now trauma versus purpose, that trauma and again, trauma doesn't have to be a crazy event in life. Yeah, we all have trauma. So and oftentimes it's something that we want to prove to our father. This can be light. This can be big. This can be related to being bullied at school, whatever it is. trauma can be a massive driver and can be extremely beneficial for motivation and growth. However, I do think, and Seb, to zoom into this, I do think that it's eventually unsustainable.

30:55And also, obviously, on a personal note, it takes a big toll on us and our lives, whether we realize it or not. That's another dimension to this. You mentioned servitude, Andreas, and I think the natural progression of, I would say, dealing with trauma and transforming this drive that we have, like I definitely started there. I have a very complicated relationship with my father, didn't see him for a long time. Much of what I did for sure is related to somehow on some level proving it to my father. I was also an entrepreneur. So there's definitely a big part of that drive in there. what I noticed is in the journey of really working yourself yeah um work with different coaches go to retreats like just really going through the process that it naturally changes to very different energy which I think is way more powerful and that energy as you call Andreas like being more in service is where you feel such a strong purpose to what you do and such a strong energy behind it that the reason why you do it changes completely.

32:03And attachment to success also changes. Because it becomes more around, like in this case, and what I do around empowering founders, around helping founders, then it becomes about like building a big company about accumulating more money. Yeah, that is a very, very different energy. And in the context of a leader, whether that is a CEO and a founder or someone else, at the end of the day, that people who follow that leader will notice that energy. And when it comes to hiring the best talent, when it comes to convincing investors to give them money, when it comes to, again, in general, attracting the best resources, the purpose-driven attitude is like an energy people will feel because they feel the authenticity city behind it you know they will feel that you deeply care that it's not just you that wants to be successful and accumulate as much power and wealth but that it's around us and like together building can i ask you both about the multiplicity or the two-sidedness of personal goals because what i struggle with sometimes is that yes i 100 am building euvc and everything we do for the community in European venture.

33:22However, I'm definitely also doing it because I'm trying to put my family in a better spot. How does one best grapple with this double-sidedness of everything I do? Because I think most of us are partly doing it for vanity reasons or personal reasons. Part of it is because we're in servitude of our customers who are trying to democratize access to the financial system or whatever is the mission of the bigger mission of the company we're at. For you, Mike, it's getting founders the right guidance and good path through their life in tech. What do you say, Sap, to a founder that has this, on the one hand, I feel like I'm just being super ecocentric and I'm doing this just for myself.