$100M-Net-Worth Retired Founder: Chasing Energy Instead of Money

29:46Maybe somebody didn't get treated right, or maybe somebody got too much or too little or something that happened. There's a lot of feelings that come along with it that end up, I think, haunting the post-exit founders. And some of them go back and do it again, even though they have all the money they need. Like, I'm going to go do it again, and this time I'm not going to have this part of the outcome that I didn't like. So, yeah, partially true. Uh, the, the financial, um, the financial aspect was solved and then, and then solved again times, uh, times a few. But the, you know, the feelings persist.

30:30I didn't get treated very well by the second private equity firm that, uh, that bought my company. So we exited in 17 and then again in 20. And that company, uh, said they were really excited to have the founder involved with the business. and then later asked me to not talk in the board meetings. So, and that's fine. It was their company and they did quite well with it. So, you know, using my wallet, which was my key metric, they did fine. But, you know, how hard is that for a founder to sit in a board meeting? Maths have hurt quite a bit. It's like, you know, seeing your baby abused by someone else in a way.

31:14Yeah. I use the analogy of like someone that's been on a particular battlefield for 13 years and a new person comes in and says, you know what we're going to do? We're going to go take that hill. And you say, you know what? That hill looks really good. I've seen that hill and we tried to take that hill five times. But here's what you don't know. There's a machine gun nest. There are snipers. There are landmines and tanks. And by the way, there's nothing up on top of the hill. and they say, be quiet. And that was just me. And look, that's just ego, right? I mean, I sold it. It wasn't mine anymore.

31:54That's just ego. But yeah, absolutely, absolutely hurt. It hurts when I go back to my old office building, which I own. And I was in last week and I'm watching people shuffle around kind of like, is it Friday yet? And it hurts my heart. It hurts my heart because it was a special place. It had great energy. And now it feels like - So Jeff, it wasn't just about money, it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah, as it turns out. Yeah. Good catch. If anything, it actually sounds like your closure hasn't quite happened. I'm getting closer. I'm closing in on closure. Closure is a big topic in my conversations. I'm sure in your post-exit founder community as well.

32:37And I found that there are two extremes. There are people who take this radical disengagement approach and they just completely disconnect from the old business. They don't want to hear about it. They block any communications. And then there are completely different people who are actually trying to keep the relationships and they make an effort to continue the relationships with employees and co-founders and all of that. Where do you fall on that spectrum in terms of social engagement with your previous company? In the first phase with the first private equity buyer who is outstanding, we'll recommend to anyone who's thinking about partnering with a private equity in tech, contact me, I'll tell you all about it.

33:29I had a good relationship. I did expect to probably be more involved or more needed or more called upon than I was. I was treated with great respect. I could walk into any meeting at any time and be and feel welcome. But I wasn't called in maybe quite as much. Maybe I wasn't as important as I'd hoped I would be. So in that case, I was kind of in the middle between radical disengagement and still being involved. And then by the end, I was completely removed. And today I'm completely removed from the operation. And I've also sold all of my stock as of 2022. too. So yeah, I guess I'm maybe just tethered emotionally some.

34:17So being important was important for you. How do you find satisfaction for that need these days? Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. One is just being useful feels good. Having a load to carry feels really good. spending yourself in worthy cause feels good.

34:40And the other thing, if I would have had, you know, like the ability to send a tweet to myself, right, you know, right before, right before I exited, just like, you know, or just had ability to, you know, send a 10 second message, it would be you, you will miss pursuing an important objective with people you like, respect and trust that's hard to replace absolutely yeah absolutely it's hard to replace so you didn't replace it yet i'm working on it the my retired founder bit has opened doors for me where i can find that comfortable place where i can do some good and hopefully do some good and feel useful while not getting so overwhelmed that I want to quit.

35:30And I talk about spectrums a lot. There's a spectrum in retirement where on one end, I could just live this life of luxury and comfort and safety and accomplish nothing. And I think that would be thoroughly dissatisfying to me, but I could do it. Sounds pretty good when I say it out loud. And then on the other end of the spectrum is going and doing something really hard again, like starting another company or deciding I'm going to take on climate or homelessness or healthcare or education, something like that. And I'm pretty scared of that side, if I'm being honest. I've observed when failure is an option, it's probably going to happen.

36:16So I'm trying to find something that's closer to the middle where I can feel like I can be challenged and be useful, but also have success. And I don't mean to criticize, again, run your own race. I don't mean to criticize anyone. My friends that play golf every day, good for you. If you fall into that slot, count yourself, I think, as lucky. And for my friends who have retired with vast sums of money and they're going at it again or they're taking on some intractable problem, pat on the back. you know just happy for you that's just not me um do you ever do you ever think about your you know using my spectrum as an example like hey that's i want to do that and it's challenging but not so hard it's going to break my spirit you know i'm completely with you and uh what you just said now is very similar to what i tell people when they ask me the question so i'm exactly in that place but I also do see people who find who spend some time in the space where you and you and I are right now and this podcast is for me a way to be helpful and useful and get that satisfaction without making it as hard as it was building companies before but I also met people who spend some time in this space and then they do find usually very naturally something very difficult to do but they're so motivated by that time that it actually seems still quite comfortable and that's what fascinates me, I love meeting these people I love to understand why and how they got there and I'm kind of playing with my own reactions to emotional reactions to what they're saying to see, oh, maybe actually that's where I'm going to be.

38:09But if I learned anything in my 13 years since my first exit, is that letting go and giving things time is extremely important. And for me, for example, my lifestyle is much more about setting myself up for good things to come into my life, as opposed to chasing them like crazy, like I did before. But setting yourself up for good things to come is also quite a hard work. It's all about those habits you mentioned and making sure that you have the right habits, you have the right attitudes, you have the right mindset. It's a lot of work, a lot of internal work and then some external work as well because you have to be very discerning with respect to the people around you because they influence you without you fully realizing it.

38:57So for me, that's the whole... So that's work in a way, pleasant work, but it's work. But I'm very curious about the future and where it takes me as I'm getting better at creating the system to invite good things into my life. Yeah, that's an enlightened... Does it make sense? It makes perfect sense. It's a very enlightened view. And I wonder if you would have been able to record that and beam it back to your first exit if you would have listened or not. In some ways, it feels like you have to go through it to get that enlightenment that you have. When I talk about the post-exit blues, which is the world's smallest violin, I mean, it's a tough thing to talk about.

39:48It's embarrassing in some way. It's like this combination of braggy and embarrassing, which is, there's probably a German word for that, but it's right in there. And if anyone listening, speak directly to the audience, if anyone listening is thinking, this guy is the biggest moron I've ever heard in my life. And I don't mind sharing because I'm anonymous. I have$100 million. dollars. If someone were to tell me 10 years ago that there's a person out there, he's on a podcast for some reason today, he has a hundred million dollars and he hasn't found happiness. I can guarantee, guarantee a hundred percent, I would have said, idiot, get out of the way, hand me the money.

40:39Let me show you how this is done. And, and I just, I just think you got to go through it. And they would be very naive because once they get that$100 million, they'll realize that happiness is still a lot of work away. It is. Yeah. I was having a conversation yesterday. We kind of stumbled into this idea that maybe everyone has a comfortable amount of, let's call it expenses rather than assets, like a comfortable amount of expenses. I go back to the last four years or so running the company where things were going pretty well. I was getting paid well, and we were taking the kids on nice vacations, and, you know, we paid off our house, and it just felt pretty good, right?

41:30And so that was, like, the sweet spot. And when you're below that sweet spot and you're scrambling and, you know, you're not quite sure if, you know, am I going to have to sell the house? You know, can we afford the, you know, to go to the dentist, whatever that thing is, it's really uncomfortable. The part that is surprising is the discomfort that comes from the gap on the high side where, you know, so maybe I'm just using numbers as an example. So maybe my comfort zone was when I could spend$400 ,000 a year. That's a good amount of expense. And now if I use the portfolio Monte Carlo, I need to be spending$2 million a year or$3 million a year if I don't want that number to run away.

42:20I need to spend it or give it away. And it creates a different kind of discomfort that I can hear myself talk. I can hear people like slamming their laptops closed. So if you're still here, if you haven't slammed your laptop closed, thank you. But it creates a different kind of, honestly, an unexpected discomfort. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think if anyone is still listening, it means that they can relate to that. I hope so. And as we talked about recall, I think this is a really important conversation. And I think you have a really important podcast here. And I would love for you to have five listeners that make it to the end of this or whatever it is.

43:07One listener that makes it to the end and says, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And we talked about it before that we, both of us, met so many people who have comparable amount of money to you and then they're still chasing more. And going back to that beautiful idea of addiction to money, so many people are not yet at the point where they can say, here I am, I am an addict to money. because the society actually considers it as a good thing that you keep running for it. I am so happy for you that you recognize this problem and that you're dealing with it. You're definitely not alone.

43:56Thank you. Yeah, I won't name the name of the organization. It sounds like you had a different experience with the organization of high net worth people. but I find it sad, disheartening. Maybe I'm projecting my own self but when you're in a room with someone who has so much resource and they're spending and giving away very little of it and they're putting their energy to just getting more that they can't like, you can't spend this much so I guess I better go back and get more for some reason. Not judging but I just don't understand it. Well, you know the explanation I have for myself, because I agree with you, it's not necessarily rational if you look at it from the outside.

44:44But I think it's actually avoidance because dealing with feelings and dealing with the problem and even accepting the problem is very hard. It's much easier to just follow the momentum to keep doing the same thing. In a way, it's so interesting for us founders, the comfort zone is the hard work of earning money. It is our comfort zone. Getting out of that comfort zone is letting go, relaxing, allowing yourself not having control and facing your feelings without judgment. That's extremely uncomfortable. Hard work. It is indeed. It might be analogous to the human's discomfort with mastering the food supply, which is possibly a reason for the obesity epidemic.

45:47Like as a species, we weren't designed to have like control our food and like have ample food. And, um, you know, the, the, there's this idea maybe that the same thing happens with money where we have a scarcity mindset. Another one of my habit loops, a scarcity mindset. And it's really, you know, that, that's not, that's not, um, that's like low on the brainstem, right? That's way down there that you, as humans, we have a desire to build more because as cave people or whatever, there was never any certainty beyond the day. But I would say, I'll borrow another one of my coach's quotes, you cannot fill a hole with the thing that created it.

46:38So if you're chasing that money and you think chasing more money is going to fill the hole, probably not going to work. And so I think you make a really good point. Again, we're in a no-judgment zone. If that's someone's purpose to make more money and they choose to use capitalism as their scorecard and their way of giving back, there's certainly a good that comes with it. I just didn't fall in that camp personally. So if tomorrow you stumbled upon an amazing purpose and you would realize that to be the most efficient in your contribution towards that purpose, you would need to build a business.

47:21Would that kill the idea for you? Or you would actually consider a business as a form of the most efficient way to achieve something really important, satisfying and fulfilling? That's a really good question. and I don't know. I don't know the answer. Like I said, I think I'm an alcoholic that can't have the booze in the house. So I think I would struggle with that because at my core, I'm so certain that I know chasing more money isn't the thing. But just to not get stuck on that point in a situation where that was the only way would be to invest or have an opportunity to make money, If that were the only way that I could pursue a purpose, then that would have to be considered, right?

48:11I mean, how would you not consider that? Yeah, because most of my guests, I like asking people this question, and most of my guests are saying that they think to realize their full potential and to give their very, very best to the world, they actually have to build another business. because this is where all their talents, all their experience, everything that's the best that they can offer to the world comes together. But it's interesting, when I listen to you, I wonder if you have a fear of money in a way because you know you're addicted, which may be restricting you in the future, or it's actually not that, it's not a fear.

48:58I have two different viewpoints on that. it's a really interesting thread. One is when you're riffing on that person who's saying, well, this is my way of giving back to the world and maximizing my purpose or whatever, doesn't that sound a little bit like an alcoholic to you or an addict to you? Like, I just need this one. There's just this, I got to get through the day or I'm going to be more socially viable or whatever the thing is. It just sounds like an addict to me. So maybe a way to look at this is what's a scenario where I would not be able to pursue something because I didn't have an economic upside in it?

49:39I give money to things, you know, without any expectation. I'm working on a lot of things for founders that I believe is, you know, a big part of my purpose. What's a scenario where I would absolutely need to be a capitalist pig to pursue that purpose and passion? For example, to make something sustainable. say you're trying to solve an important problem but if you don't make it financially sustainable then it means that when you're gone the whole thing falls apart and you may say I have the responsibility to build it into an efficient mechanism which produces money to sustain itself which also supports people who are the best possible people for this cause, right?

50:29And then you realize that this is the best way to solve the problem. Would you stop at that point and say, no, no, no, I'm not going there because my addiction will come back? I would still, but I'd still say, let's say we came up with an idea to fix the healthcare system today, which would be great. would it not be possible to pursue it? Of course, it's going to require money, but it may not require me taking any money out, right? And say, well, here, let me write a check for a million dollars and I'll help raise more money and I'll help hire people and I'll help develop product and I'll help, you know, do all of the things to accomplish the objective, but I'll never, but I don't have any stock.

51:09I don't have any, I don't take a salary. Would that be, would that be the same? Because I'm not like a successful capitalist that's now declaring, you know, socialism is the right way. I get money, makes things happen. I think for me personally, it's just needing to detach from a financial outcome for myself, if that makes sense. Okay. So you're going to draw the line at the way you would take the money out personally. So it's more venture philanthropy, for example, would be a good structure for something like that. right? That it produces money, but only to feed itself, to become better and better and better in solving the problem until the problem is solved.

51:50In this hypothetical, that would be my first answer. I'd have to think through that more. But yeah, that sounds right to me. That's amazing. Okay. So your early motivation was money. Your motivation now is having a happy, fulfilling life? Or how would you define it? I would define it very simply as chasing energy. okay i am working on doing things that bring me energy and i'm working really hard to avoid things that take my energy from me you're turning into an energy addict yeah yeah and and sign me up sign me up i've been since i've been been working with founders and the beyond the finish line group i've been waking up really early with a bunch of energy and um i only have things on my calendar.

52:40I'm really looking forward to it. I mean, look, we've all got to go to the DMV. Sometimes we got to go to the dentist. Sometimes it's not like, you know, I found some parallel universe, uh, but, but I actively try to avoid things that, uh, are taking my energy. And if I find myself, I'm in a situation where my energy is being sucked from me, I leave. It turns out no one cares. I'm not that popular. Uh, so that's what I'm, that's the, that's the mindset that I have. It's not money that matters. It's energy. And what's better than energy? What's better? Yeah. Energy is everything, right? We're all made of energy.

53:19I'm with you. Absolutely. So let's talk about specifics. You mentioned that one energizing activity for you is spending time with other founders because we are on the same wavelength or whatever it is. What are other examples that you found for you personally that are energizing? I do like to a lot of recreational things. I do like to play golf. I do like to mountain bike. I do like to ski. I like to do things for fun and to be silly. I don't like to be overly serious about anything I do. As I've read some psychology books about reconnecting with the person you were at birth, and then society pulls you away from that particular individual and says, this is your job to go make money or to go solve crime or whatever the thing is you're called to do, to try to get back to that silly kid.

54:25and so those are those are things that give me energy as well i have friends that i play golf with that um we just have a great time because we could care really care less about the golf we're we're goofing and making fun of each other and that that gives me great energy too having having interesting conversations with smart people like now is is really is very energetic uh for me um and then and then i like the little things too i'm not i'm not that complicated of a person my wife and I eat lunch and dinner together almost every day we play backgammon and if you're listening my wife who I will not name I'm going to beat you at our lunch game which is going to start here in an hour so that gives me good energy as well you know sometimes it's the simple thing sometimes it's reading a book sitting quietly listening to music I'm not You don't need to make it too complicated.

55:21Did you find that you questioned some of the most foundational concepts in your life, like freedom or meaning, success as part of this process? And if so, how did you change your view on those concepts? The concept that turned out to be bunk for me was the happily ever after paradox. And they rode off into the sunset and lived happily ever after. And when you're a founder and you're in the grind, you're like, yeah, that's awesome. Riding off into the sunset. What could be better than that? But no one ever asks, but then what happened, let's say, three years later on a Thursday afternoon? them.

56:10Like what, what happened? What happened then? What happened when someone sprained their ankle? What happens when the smoke detector starts beeping at two in the morning? Is it still happily ever after? And this is embarrassing as well, but in a way I had this foggy vision that somehow the universe would treat me differently or I would be, I don't even know how to describe it, but it just felt like, well, certainly when I have all the money, the problems will, will be gone as well. And I guarantee my smoke detectors still go off at two in the morning. They never go off at 2 in the afternoon. My smoke detectors and the person at the DMV could care less if I have a nickel or all the money in the world.

56:49So that was one that I'm not proud to say that, but it just, like, who knew? You didn't just ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after every day for the rest of your life. So I'm sure that changed your definition of success because it sounds like it was tied to money before. And then it's tied to energy. So your day is successful if you got more energy than you actually spent, right? Would that be? Yeah, if I had to pick one, I would pick energy. I run this model I call the rewind day check, which is when my head hits the pillow at night, I just ask myself, is today a day I would want to relive at some point in the future in my life?

57:33Would I rewind this day? Or is this a day I would just as soon skip? and I had a lot of skip days in the middle where just like I felt like I was preparing to be happy. I was trying to figure something out and I haven't had anything but rewind days of late and I would suggest to anyone if you wanted to try that experiment, if you have too many skip days in a row, change gears, change gears, do something different. So let's talk about freedom. I assume you felt that you achieved freedom after your complete exit, after you finally left the company. What are your thoughts on freedom today? Freedom is the thing we all seek, financial freedom and independence and FU money or whatever you want to call it.

58:23And we're so fortunate. Gosh, I should just take a curve out here. Feel free to edit. But how fortunate we are, how fortunate I've been. I stood on the shoulders of my grandparents who were farmers and factory workers. And my dad was a middle-class office white-collar worker. My mom stayed home, and my wife is loving, and all that. I'm just so lucky to have an opportunity to be in a capitalist free society. It's not a perfect world, but how lucky we were to have the fundamental freedom to pursue that ultimate freedom of, I'm going to wake up and do whatever I want to do today. When you get to the back half of that, where you have close to infinite options, there can be some drawback as well.

59:10Maybe you've experienced this when you can have anything, you can do, you know, within reason, you kind of do whatever you want with your time and with your resources. resources can also be a little vexing. You've probably read the paradox of choice, which will say, ideally, you just have one or two choices and you pick that one. And when you have a thousand, you're more likely to be unhappy than if you just had the two. So it's a beautiful double-edged sword. I found it took me years to master freedom management. I never expected it would even be an issue, that it even existed, because I really was so motivated by freedom my whole life.

59:54And then I was overwhelmed and had no idea what to do with it and couldn't find direction and wasted a lot of energy chasing many goals all at the same time. And that's actually how I learned to appreciate energy. It was through struggling with too much freedom. And then I figured, okay, how about I take all this energy, I channel it somewhere. And this is when the question, what is it I actually want, becomes very important. Because then you think, okay, where do I channel it? Say I can pull it all together. I can say no to many things. But where do I go? What is it I really want? I found that quite complicated.

1:00:39Yeah. Well, you've proven beyond a reasonable doubt you're the more interesting guest here. So tell me all about it. Is this a system? Have you written about this? Is this something that you could help describe your process for me and others? Well, I'm a big believer in what you're saying, picking our activities based on their effect on our energy. And I'm religious about analyzing all the time. Is it energizing me or am I draining energy? And it became so much of a habit that decisions became very easy over time. But in terms of channeling my energy, I think this brings us to purpose and the sense of purpose.

1:01:26because I only feel really fulfilled and deeply energized if I feel that I am contributing. So this is when I think there was a big growth for me. So, for example, this podcast gives me a lot of fulfillment because I feel I'm contributing. I can be helpful. I can bring people like you and give you a platform to share your wisdom. And every time I'm done with an interview, I'm so energized. It's like, you know, it's early morning. So there's no question about that. And then growth, the sense of personal growth, becoming a better person as a direction really energizes me. And understanding that I'm a better person than I was before.

1:02:17So all these things I didn't understand earlier in my life, like working on virtues very intentionally just to become a better person is actually extremely energizing. That's great. Thank you. Would you say that's become ingrained in you now or do you still have to launch that mental process when you're maybe you're making a decision? Someone invites you to lunch or to, I don't know, to do something. is it natural to you now or do you have to stop yourself sometimes like well that's chasing something that doesn't bring me energy it's becoming easier and easier it's the power of a habit our brain also has this habit

1:03:03sometimes I like to make exceptions because sometimes it's very nice to just go with the flow and the field I'm generally a very spontaneous person so if anything I actually need to restrict my spontaneity. But sometimes I feel, okay, I don't know this person, but I don't know what I don't know. I'm curious enough. I'll go, I'll spend some time with the person and then we'll see. And by now, more often than not, I'm pleasantly surprised. Oh, great. Are you good at walking out? Can you walk out? Well, if it's a big group, it's very easy for me. I just disappear. Yeah. I'm very good at that. My husband always laughs at me.

1:03:42I'm a master of disappear, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a gift. It's a gift. It's harder to do. Yeah. The minute I'm not energized, I just disappear into the thing. Good for you. It sounds so simple, but it can be difficult to do. In a one-on-one, it's much harder, obviously, for all of us, right? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sticking around. I appreciate it. You're wanting to leave right now as your energy draining from your body as we're speaking. But can I become the host again? Can I keep asking you questions? Yeah, sorry. I find it much more fascinating. I'm a teacher. I'm a student. And the only reason I know anything is having conversations.

1:04:16But yes, please, I'll get back on the therapist's sofa here. There are a couple of... I'll let you go soon because I know I've been abusing you for too long. But there are a couple of questions I have to ask. How do you think about legacy? Well, it's fine that we're running short on time because I don't. Uh-huh. I thought you would say that. I like to think, and again, that's important to someone. I don't need my name on a building. I don't need to be remembered across generations. I would like to think that the people that are in my life while I'm living would say, I gave more than I took. I was honest.

1:05:00I was fair. And hopefully, you know, taught as much as I learned. and that's fine for me. I'd like to provide for my family within reason, not too much, not too little, and have a positive effect on the universe, and I'm happy with that if I can achieve that. So you have three adult children. Yes, three adult children. How do you think of them and inheritance and giving the wealth to them? Yeah, well, step one is I hope they don't find this podcast. So if you guys did, I was lying about the hundred million. Okay. That was, that was all a fraud. We were struggling with this. I think like everyone, like everyone else, because the choice is, is really two.

1:05:48You can give your kids too much and ruin them, or you can give them nothing and they'll hate you. I think that's a Charlie Munger line. So he chooses to ruin them. Charlie passed away recently, but a wise man. And I think if I were to come up with a structure today, I think that makes sense would be to have some type of a facility that would provide absolute safety for them in the event when we're gone, but not so much that they're living a flush lifestyle. We also subscribe to the idea that once our kids show they have financial responsibility, we help them now. Because if all goes well, my wife and I are going to live to be 90 or 100 probably.

1:06:40And what good does it do a 65-year-old kid who's not a kid at 65 to get a big pile of money? So we do believe in - Always for you. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it. I don't have a, I'm desperately wanting to turn the microphone around on you and ask if you've solved this. But that's my best answer is it does vary by kid, right? There are people who receive an awful lot and thrive and live beautiful lives. And then there are people that just have like, you know, enough sustenance income that they fail to thrive at all. So I wish I had the answer. Have you had mental health diagnosis? Since you're being very honest and vulnerable, I figured I'd ask.

1:07:28Yeah, the only therapy I've ever done was Rick Eigenbrod, who I hired in 2022. And I'm not sure if that was therapy or coaching or psychoanalysis or whatever it was, but he certainly helped me unpack those things that were jamming me up. But I don't currently go, Rick and I have become friends, so we do talk, but I don't have a therapist that I go to on a regular basis, if that's what you're asking. Is it because you ignored mental health for your whole life? Or is it because you genuinely believe that you are healthy mentally and have always been? I've never thought about that. It's a good question.

1:08:10There's a voice I hear in my head sometimes that says, stop studying and analyzing and just go activate what you've already learned. Because I've come a long way. I've got a pretty clear view of what's in front of me. do I really need to go on an ayahuasca voyage or to a spiritual retreat or sit in silence for a week? Maybe. I mean, maybe I would pick something new up, but I feel like I've got enough tools right now to go forward, and I feel like I'm on a good path. So part of me thinks maybe don't get confused with a new mantra or a new observation about who you are, what went wrong, what you should be doing, what's your purpose, what's your identity.

1:08:56so I don't know did that did that sound like I was avoiding something when when you ask that that feels right to me but no no it's a beautiful answer so does it mean that you haven't done any of these things silent retreats or psychedelics I have not done a silent retreat I have done like every founder I know I've done psilocybin twice and was it was it was great it was great it was time we have. But it was very useful to me. You'd recommend it? I wouldn't recommend it because it's illegal most places, including the place I did it. I had, just for what it's worth, I had my wife was present, but not in the room.

1:09:43I said, hey, look, if I come down and tell you I'm going to fly the helicopter across town, would you remind me I don't have a helicopter? Because I didn't know what would happen. And so the first one was more of an experiment. And the The second one was much more telling, revealing, I think, for me. And the short story of it, if you want to hear it, is I had a vision of what's called the four false gods. Are you familiar with this? It's a Thomas Aquinas concept recently surfaced by Arthur Brooks, where as humans, we're drawn to money, pleasure, power, and fame. And so I wasn't thinking about this.

1:10:23I wasn't even aware that I had read about this. It just manifested, and I felt these four dark forces that were pulling me and a light force above. Yeah, I was on magic mushrooms, so take this for what it's worth. But the light that was above the waterline was people and purpose. And get away from these things that are, you don't need more money, pleasure. I don't care at all about power or fame. Don't care. what I'm striving for is people and purpose I think this is such a beautiful moment for us to finish this conversation to wrap things up I just want to ask you is there any other piece of advice or idea that we haven't mentioned that you think would be helpful for fellow Exeter founders I think we covered a lot of it I think if you wind up in a weird spot, you're probably not alone.

1:11:27It's a small community, but if any of this made any sense or some version of it, there's a good chance you're not alone. That's the advice I would say. You're not alone. And don't be afraid. I mean, I'm putting myself out there, and I think that's why we're talking. Maybe people are drawn to the retired founder Twitter account or website or whatever it is, it's just I'm authentic. And I was scared to death to put myself out there. Maybe I still am and remaining anonymous. But the response I got was so great. It was just so great. Don't be, you know, your mileage may vary, but if there's something out there, put yourself out there.

1:12:06And there's a good chance you're not alone. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Jeff. I really deeply enjoyed this conversation. It was great. Thanks for having me. And thanks for doing this work. Yeah, I really enjoyed the podcast. Thank you. Thank you so much. Have a good day. You too.