Michael Miller. Meditation: the Ultimate Post-Exit Medicine

33:04I love to know this. This is such a great conversation because we haven't seen each other for so long and I love getting this feedback loop. Update. Yes, it is. It does feel like an update. I think that's, this is very much something that people notice, that there's a little bit of spaciousness, that something happens and there's time for me to take that in and process it and then respond or maybe not respond just let it pass through as opposed to it being a little knee-jerk reactive that there's a little bit of a gap and you know i i we use a different term we would say non-attached because detached is active.

33:54Like for me to be detached, I'm kind of almost pushing away as opposed to non-attached. Like if I'm attached to someone, I'm holding onto their arm and I'm dripping them in. And if they, you know, are in motion, I'm getting dragged apart or dragged around. If I'm detached, I'm kind of pushing them away, which requires effort on my part. And still whatever they do affects me. Whereas if I'm non-attached, you know, I can actually stand right next to this person, be in shoulder to shoulder contact, but I'm not getting dragged. I'm not getting unnecessarily impacted. If they slam into me, you know, I have the ability to respond to that.

34:43But if they move away, I've got a choice. I can follow and remain in contact or I can let some space develop. And that metaphor plays out very much in business decisions. that if I'm attached to outcome, then I'm constantly going to be taking the temperature and struggling and worrying and all of that. If I go into action, and this again comes back to spontaneous right action, I get an idea, I move that direction, and then let's see. Let's see what happens. I'm not attached to outcome. Goes my way, fantastic, fantastic. Lovely. Turned out the way I thought. That's great. Didn't turn out the way I thought.

35:32Okay. Interesting. Well, here's information. And so life becomes a little bit more about instead of good news or bad news, it's simply information that I can respond to or, as you say, not respond to. Okay, so this is the direction that we're headed now, or this is the result of that action. All right, what do I do next? How do I take the next step as opposed to, oh, no, it didn't work out the way I wanted or the way I thought it would? That reminds me of another benefit I personally got from meditation, which is at some point I came across this idea that everything evil should stop with me. and I really loved the idea because I thought okay, I shouldn't allow anything bad or evil to escalate or I don't want to be the medium for anything that I consider evil but how do I do that?

36:31Meditation is what actually helped me a lot because of this non-attachment because if you can not get emotionally involved in things that are evil and respond in an evil way that's how you stop it with you without suffering necessarily because you don't want to be the one who absorbs all the negative energy and then blows up at the end, you don't want that so to me meditation is a tool to be that kind of person that I want to be that does not multiply evil in the world we don't like to entertain negativity in the sense of taking it in and thinking about it and dwelling upon it and magnifying it.

37:15I find myself saying to many students, you are changing history by being a meditator. You're changing your personal family history because all those things that you're mad at your parents about, they inherited from their parents and their parents and their parents and their parents. The generational trauma, bad behavior, poor relationship skills, all of that gets passed down on and on and on. And when you're a meditator, you rest the body very deeply. You clear out these stresses, these impressions that we've taken on because of parents, because of personal history, because of deals that went bad, because of relationships that came apart we've all got these impressions but meditation unwinds and clears that out and then you can be your own best self you you upgrade your personal experience and then that spreads you know everyone wants a peaceful world peaceful families peaceful neighborhood peaceful society no one can impose peace upon us you know we're not going to get a new government in the UK and suddenly have peace whoever gets elected in America it it's not going to be a peaceful experience that's not going to come from our political leaders it's not going to come you from your therapist it's not going to come from your marriage partner it's not going to come from your children it doesn't come from outside of you only from inside can peace be found and then you know everyone wants a peaceful society individuals have to be peaceful everyone wants a green forest you can't spray paint the forest and say okay it's green you need individual green trees individual peaceful people change their families and change their workplaces and change the world absolutely.

39:26So it's actually absolutely fascinating for me because how to have impact is probably the most common question we deal with in the post-exit community because most of my audience have sold their businesses and now are looking for how can we contribute in the most meaningful way. And of course we're trained to think about what's the biggest problem I can possibly solve for the biggest number of people. But what you are saying is that maybe that needs to be reversed and we should start with ourselves and just believe that that beautiful impact will happen naturally once we've found that peace inside.

40:13And also clarity of thought, I guess, is part of it. I think you're on to it, that if you create a business that is touching 100 million people, but at the core of that business is an unhappy person, some portion of that is being spread. You know, suffering will spread. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know this from the organizations you've worked in. And if somebody at the top is unhappy and stressy and a poor manager, that comes down really fast. If everybody at the bottom feels mistreated and unhappy, that's going to move the whole pyramid and everybody else is going to be impacted. It goes both directions.

41:11And so we want to work on all levels. Yes, if we can do something, if we can create a business or an organization that impacts a lot of people in a positive way, do it. Do it. Absolutely. Don't wait to find some miraculous moment of inner peace and then move into the world. simultaneity is what we're interested in do both at the same time work on yourself make sure that what you are spreading into the world into the people that you directly have contact with is the very best but that has to start with you then you lift other people up you know this is not the age of the monk this is not the age of withdrawal from society this is not about renunciation, renouncing the world and material things and turning inward and going to a cave up in the Himalayas somewhere.

42:12You know, I've spent a lot of time meditating with my eyes closed in northern India, and that's a great experience. But if someone asked me, well, why did you leave that peaceful, silent place? My answer would have to be, my intention was not to leave it. my intention was to bring it with me I want that to be brought back into the world and so again this is we keep coming back to ROI no one learns to meditate because they're absolutely happy in every way except they have 40 minutes in their day they're not sure what to do with and you know now learn to meditate now I'm sorted Now my life is perfection.

43:03Nobody learns to meditate like that. Everyone wants their life to be better as a result of meditating. So we meditate for those 20 minutes twice a day, not for the experience that happens while we're doing it, but for the impact it has on the other 23 hours of the day. I sleep better. Fantastic. My digestion feels more balanced. Wonderful. My skin clears up. Great. My cardiovascular system is a little stronger and more efficient. Fantastic. Oh, I'm a nicer person to be around. Oh, I'm thinking more. All of that stuff has this spillover effect. And so we're in the time not of the renunciate, but of the enlightened leader.

43:48This is desperately what the world needs, is people who are fulfilled in the sense that they know themselves. They have access to that inner wellspring of bliss and stability and clarity and flexibility. And then they're taking that into the world. They're not taking their stress and their irritation and their exhaustion and spreading that. They're actually spreading that which is valuable. Which is amazing and brings me to one of my favorite topics, the direction of our personal growth. Because we talked about it before. People in my audience and in the post-exit community become absolute masters of personal growth optimized for business success and our personal wealth accumulation.

44:50we become so good at it, and then when we're at the top, we sell our businesses. And suddenly that direction of personal growth, A, becomes irrelevant, and B, we face the fact that there is so much that we had to sacrifice in our personal growth from the holistic standpoint that we need to catch up, and we don't know how, because we don't have the skills, we don't have the knowledge. we're going to want to have a much more fulfilling content life but we don't know how and I would love to hear your thoughts on that our society tells us in acquisition getting stuff I'm five years old or if I get the new bike then I'll be happy I get the new bike I ride it for six months now I want a skateboard oh I got the skateboard Ooh, I'm happy for a little bit.

45:48Oh, now if I can get the PlayStation. And those things bring temporary happiness. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just what they don't bring is fulfillment, lasting fulfillment. And the great good fortune of someone who has exited is that it is clear that money did not bring happiness. Many people chase it their whole lives and never make enough to be able to say, oh shoot, this doesn't work. The great thing about selling your company for 15 or 150 and being unhappy is that you realize you're looking in the wrong place. Great. Great. Realizing this is not going to do it, that is half the battle right there.

46:52Okay, now where do I go next? I'm going to get in shape. I'm going to run a marathon. No, I'm going to run super marathon. I'm going to run five marathons in five days on five continents. And somehow this is going to make me happy. I'm going to climb the highest peak on six continents. And if I can just acquire those benchmarks, then I'm somehow going to be happy. And, you know, we know that the physical is not going to, but we chase after this for a while. what's one of the biggest in our society lovey-dovey feelings oh if i just find the right groovy partner now i'm going to be happy and i've got my 150 and i've got this person who i sacrificed to my job who's bitter from years of neglect and i'll offload that person and get somebody new and shoot that doesn't last for very long you know four or five years I realized oh darn it this wasn't it either every pop song told me that this was going to be my source of happiness and it turns out not to be and we know we all know it to be true we all know it to be true by the way I'm speaking from what I'm what I hear from our clients and I have you know three clients who are in the Forbes top 500 list who have families and stuff, homes, you know, like if I can just get the right architecture, I'm going to be happy.

48:35If I can have architecture here and in the country and maybe on the continent, then I'll be happy. And none of that works. None of that works. The jet and the yacht and all of that stuff having those things okay what comes next change my mental state how do I do it maybe I try alcohol you know really good wine and if I can have just the right amount with a good meal then I'm gonna be happy for a while that doesn't work out pretty quickly so you know i'll start with some some gummies and you know a little bit of thc applied medically you know this is going to bring me lasting out no that didn't work either it was psychedelics if i can microdose the right amount i'm just going to carefully work out what is just the right balance for me and none of this works it's closer actually yeah this is really interesting addiction is a spiritual search addiction is a spiritual search what am i trying to find my spirit my essence money didn't do it love didn't do it sex didn't do it being fit didn't do it having experiences and pushing myself physically didn't do it even altered consciousness didn't do it.

50:04What does it? Expanded consciousness. I don't want to alter my consciousness. I want to expand it. I want to be inclusive of all possibilities. I want to be in contact with the deepest, most stable, still settled place inside of me. And at the same time, be engaged and alert and interacting and prospective and in the world 200 percent not merely 100 spiritual happiness not only 100 material acquisition but 200 all of life all of life and that expansion that is the person who's found what they're looking for and then other people see it and they think how do i get some of that and then you people will do anything for someone like that that's how you become a real leader is by having wholeness and and people so look to that because the world is so clearly broken and so clearly far far far from this all these so-called leaders who are just followers of a broken collective so walk me through how you would help someone to get from the point when they have achieved material success they had that revelation that okay money doesn't bring happiness maybe also they did some marathons along the way so they kind of know by experience you should be fit by the way absolutely be fit I'm not saying don't take care of your body but let's just talk about material success they tick the box I got my financial freedom because that's number one motivator for people to try to get financial success through building a business in my experience So the person is there.

52:08How would you guide him to get to that 200 % person you just described? So you learn to meditate, which is easy. You know, you came along for four days in a row, two hours each day, and boom, at the end of those four days, you know how to meditate. And then you're on a 20 minute twice a day program. So you get up in the morning, and you do a morning meditation. And then kind of late afternoon, early evening, and you sit down again, you do another 20 minutes. You turn inward, and you make contact with that place inside, and then to whatever degree that you stabilize it, you take it out into the world.

52:49So we have this beautiful image of dyeing cloth. So they still dye cloth. By the way, you keep trying to come along on one of our retreats. I know. And we have to order us. And I've heard this so amazing. You have to come. I will. So we'll go to India together and we'll see how they still dye cotton in the way that they have for thousands of years. You take a sheet of raw, pure white cotton, you dip it into a vat of vegetable dye. And when you bring it out, it's that amazing yellow, orange, saffron color. And then you take that cloth and you put it in the sun. and the sun dries the cloth. And as the cloth dries, the color starts to fade.

53:38So this is a vegetable dye, not chemical dyes. It dries and it fades and it dries and it fades. By the time the cloth is completely dry, there's almost no color left. So then you dip it in again. And then you bring it out and you put it in the sun and it dries and it fades. But this time there's a little more color. Dip it in just for a few minutes. let it fully get infused bring it out look for the sun put it in the hot sun don't hide it away in some cool dark place that just slows it down into the sun dry fade a little more color dip fade a little more dip fade a little more day comes you dip it in you bring it out the cloth doesn't fade it's stabilized so it's a very interesting thing that this alternation is important.

54:28This ability to turn inward, touch this pure state inside, and then engage in the world. So I don't say to people, you know, go away and sit in a cave for six months. That is just like soaking the cloth in the dye. You're going to bring it out and it's going to fade anyway. You need the alternation between depth and activity. So, you know, there's, there's lots of tools in, in the, the Vedic worldview that we can, we can access, you know, Ayurveda, uh, the ancient system of healthcare that comes from the same knowledge has so much should say so ayurveda literally means science of non-death which you know everybody loves because it's all about longevity but there's there's a little add-on relevant longevity because simply living a long time but doing nothing of worth is not going to be supported by nature you're just hanging around the earth consuming resources that need to go to the next generation the support of nature gets withdrawn relevant longevity is about how do i stay fluid and flexible and active and able to to give in in an appropriate way and so you know there's all kinds of things depending on your psychophysical type your mind body type when's best to get up in the morning what kind of exercise is actually best that will create that relevant longevity for most people many many people are over exercising when it comes to having their physiology their nervous system in really good good balance you want to be comfortable through the years not pound your joints to the point where you have to replace them all so you know there's something about that having the nervous system attuned so that you are available to the world?

56:35What is it that you're consuming? And this is something we put a lot of attention on with our clients. And that, you know, food comes to mind. And this is something that people care what's happening with my microbiome and all of this. But you, what are you consuming as far as media? What are you consuming as far as how you interact with your children? What is it you put your attention on? Because anything you put your attention on becomes you. You become what you see and what you see is uplifted and gets stronger. So am I thinking about and talking about the disastrous politics of most of the Western world right now?

57:16Or am I doing something to try and make that better? Am I thinking about these awful conflicts that are happening without actually doing something to try to help people or try to cast a new perspective on it for young people who need to see the world for what it is and take the energy they have and use that to the best purposes. What am I doing? This starts to create a sense of giving. And what you give, you get. if I go into the world in a stress state, in that hyperactive, hyperreactive state of how do I get, how do I take, how do I consume, then life is always going to feel like not enough.

58:13So you meditate and you engage in the world in the very best way. You get good rest. You don't do too much. you don't strain you know the world is so strained and you see it in people's face it's one of the things that happens when they learn to meditate i've had three by the way you are not one of these three women but i have three women who've come after learning to meditate and say someone accused me of getting botox because they relaxed because they relax you know we hold so much tension in the face and especially in the amount of time we spend on screens and you see people just open up and soften in such a gorgeous gorgeous way as a result of not straining so i've started to answer your question how are we done so far amazing as far as what to do I'm saying let's get even more practical.

59:11Okay. So if you were to design a toolbox for somebody who is going through that transition, who wants to be that 200 % ultimate leader that you described and actually contribute their very best to the world while being fulfilled and happy themselves, right? That balance we all want but find so hard to achieve. If you were to design a toolbox for somebody who already is very, you know, masterful in certain things, as I described before, things that are relevant for accumulating things. So what would be in that toolbox? Meditation for sure. Meditation for sure. Getting on a health and a diet program that is balanced.

59:57But in an Ayurvedic way. Ayurveda. You would say. I would say because it's been around for 5 ,000 years. it's you know it's it's can we talk a bit more about i'm a big fan as you know yes absolutely we've done panchakarma and then and all of those things but i'd love you to talk about it and why you think it's so important why is it better for example than uh following some of more popular biohackers uh protocols yeah i mean i think join us... Thank you. it is there's a history to it and it works at the level of consciousness instead of just from the level of the physical. There's this amazing particular recipe for a kind of medicated ghee.

1:00:44So ghee is refined butter, clarified butter. And medicated ghee, ghee as a delivery device takes herbs into your body in a way that they can be absorbed and processed and made use of. And so this is often a technique of using ghee with different herbs in order to deliver medicines to the body. And there's one particular recipe where you make up the medicine in a clay pot and you seal the pot and you bury it. The way I heard it was for 100 years in the roots of one particular tree. And after 100 years, then the medicine is ready. now this has not been scientifically tested a hundred year old butter a hundred year old butter something to get excited about how did this come about someone cognized this someone knew at the level of consciousness they knew what it was like to be those herbs sitting in ghee for that amount of time now this i'm stepping way out here but it's it's fascinating to think about.

1:02:01This knowledge is not at the level merely of the scientific process. This is at the level of, I know from some broader, greater, deeper level, what is going to happen. And as a result, I can change your body at the cellular level in a way that putting on some tracking ring and watching my heart rate variability is not giving me enough information. All of these tracking devices, people get obsessed with data and they don't actually listen to themselves. And they certainly don't have the consciousness of these great masters from 1 ,000 years ago or 3 ,000 years ago who really understood something.

1:02:48I was just in India doing some work with our Ayurvedic doctors. And amazingly, you know, pure vegetarians, and that's something that is culturally very appropriate to their family, and had just diagnosed a woman and prescribed to her goat stew. and so they were every day very carefully making this this stew with goat meat because it was this certain time of year and this was available and this was exactly what her body needed it was something that they're not interested in at all but it was something that was right for this person in this moment so it's so individualized what is right for you given what you're doing given your body type given your history and what you've eaten before and the current season of the year all of that stuff it's individualized and personalized to a level that's really really different it is let's be clear it's not easy to find a great practitioner and uh we'll talk about my my doctor's going to be here in london and you'll love you'll love meeting with I'd love to do that.

1:04:13You know, when I first encountered a deep dive into Ayurvedic science, I went to India for six weeks and stayed in one of those Ayurvedic centers. And I was shocked by a lot of things, including, for example, talking about individual advice. They told me I should actually eat late in the day before going to sleep. And I thought it was so against the common rules because they said for your particular body, and they studied me for six weeks, so I assume they understood how I work, and they studied me very carefully, and they said it's very important for you because otherwise you cannot sleep through the whole night because your metabolism is very fast.

1:04:56Yes. And you need, actually, to have food before going to bed. Yes. And I thought, okay, thank you. Great. Bowl of ice cream, please. Great advice. my doctor said i'm a i'm an ice cream fan and and i say you know our veda doesn't really like ice cream generally that much and he said no no it's okay for you to have ice cream in delhi in the summertime

1:05:28i still have it sometimes brilliant so so going back to our toolbox we have meditation we have lifestyle which is aligned with ayurvedic rules yes we have sustainable exercise so not beating up the body not working too hard but doing something that is good for the structure in the in the sense of posture or alignment and is good for keeping flexibility and and joints kind of free and juicy. You know, keeping the body moving is really important. And we want to do that. You know, this is part of being inspiring to others as well. You know, if we look like we're falling to pieces, it's hard actually in the society that we live in now to be a great leader.

1:06:20You know, these things are judged. And if we take some care around ourselves, it doesn't put a barrier between us and, and other, other people. And we want to, so meditation is expanding our consciousness and is bringing us into balance. It's like, it's polishing the tool or, or sharpening the blade, but then that needs to be applied. And so often we find ourselves, you know especially with real change makers doing doing more one-on-one work jillian was just having a call yesterday with a young woman who's started started a company in the uk and has moved it to silicon valley and you know doing really interesting work in in battery technology and is a regular meditator and comes away on retreats and is doing the work, but just wasn't feeling like it was translating into action.

1:07:30So there's a beautiful story, the Bhagavad Gita, the central chapters of the Mahabharata, the great story of ancient India. And there's this moment in Bhagavad Gita. There's about to be a great war. And there's two million people on one side and six million people on the other. And there's a mile of no man's land in between. And the general of the two million person army rides out in his chariot into the no man's land and looks out across at the opposing army, which include his cousins. And he doesn't yet know it, but his half brother. and his grandfather and his most valued teacher and friends.

1:08:25These are the people he has to fight against. This is what it has come to. And he has this real moment of crisis

1:08:37where he throws down his bow and he turns to his chariot driver, who is God incarnate, Krishna. he turns to him and he says you told me that killing is always a sin and you are now asking me to fight against the people that i love in the world most and i won't do it until you can resolve this for me explain how you can tell me both of these things and and krishna smiles because he always speaks smilingly and he says this beautiful sanskrit phrase yogasta kuru karmami which means established in being perform action and this is everything that we're talking about today. Find your enlightenment. Make that connection.

1:09:49Become fulfilled and then do something. And in the case of this woman that Jillian is working with, she needs to take some hard decisions in her business and make a move. Somebody else needs to start a new company that's going to be much smaller than they were in before, but actually is in alignment with where they are now and will be doing something important. Someone else needs to take two years off and travel and not stay in five-star resorts because that's not traveling. That's flying bubble to bubble. Now it's not the kind of travel that this person needs. What this person needs is to have their feet on the ground and engage with people that they would never have contact with otherwise and actually experience the world and step into the unknown.

1:10:44There is stuff to do for everyone. And most people need a little bit of guidance. And sometimes that's a great business coach. and sometimes that's a therapist and we as teachers find ourselves playing that role especially with people who are high performers who are in positions like your exit community who either have done the great thing or are on the cusp of about to do another great thing. And it's worth listening. There's a great, you probably know this TED Talk by Elizabeth Gilbert who wrote Eat, Pray, Love. And she does a talk about what do you do when you know your best work is behind you?

1:11:32You know, she wrote this massive blockbuster and she says, I know nothing I ever do will be that big again. So how do I find meaning now? And it doesn't have to be big to be meaningful. But it might be. And what you need to do is learn to tune into this and follow it and take action established in being without being established you know we're just firing off every direction and we're out of touch we're engaged in that addiction of acquisition if we have fulfillment then we can take that fulfillment to the marketplace. We can take it on a journey. We can take it on an adventure and, and deliver it to others.

1:12:25And that most often requires some coaching. So basically going back to my community, yes, um, or that avatar, I described a person who sold the business, achieved material success, now dreams about that fulfilled, impactful person. He can be in the future, or she. So you would say they need to meditate, they need to align their lifestyle with, in your case, Ayurvedic wisdom. Achieve that fulfillment for themselves by going in and out, in a way, doing enough introspection, than exploring the world, learning from the world, bringing it back, up until the moment when they are established, as you said, which is basically they know that they are fulfilled, they know who they are, they know what they want, right?

1:13:22Not necessarily what the rest of the world thinks they should want. Yes. And then from that place, they can go and make that amazing impact in the world. Yes. But not before, because if they do it before, that's not going to be as powerful. It's not going to bring them fulfillment. I would say there's some simultaneity again going on that we start to move. We start to take steps and that creates a feedback loop. Oh, I did this. Oh, that seems to be interesting. I'm going to continue. Oh, actually, that's not interesting at all. I'm not just waiting around for some moment to happen when now I feel ready to step out.

1:14:05And as you ascend, you can always see further. So you're never going to feel like you're in the right place. You know, always you're going to see that there's something more. And that's a positive, positive thing. You know, we want to have that sense of greater expansion and there always being something, something more. But you absolutely, I think you defined that really, really well. And then where are we in our life stage? In the Vedic knowledge, they call this the ashramas, the four ashramas. So first is brahmachari, being a student. And it goes up to age 30, actually. that you are learning and exploring and figuring out who you are and what you want to do in the world.

1:15:08And then at the age of 30 or so, you cross over into Guri Hasta. And this is the householder stage. This is the society builder. This is the culture expander. This is the one who's creating wealth for themselves and for others. And that lasts from 30 to 60 that I'm expanding and really very much engaged. Then at 60, we move to Vanaprasta, which literally means forest dweller. Now, the forest dweller has not completely withdrawn. on, they've just taken a step back into an advisory position. So you are the matriarch or you're the patriarch of the family and people come to you for wise and trusted counsel.

1:16:02And you sit on a board and you're a non-exec member of that board and you really are engaged and mentoring in that sense, but you have this body of knowledge that it's more important now to be passing on to others instead of just using for yourself. Now, many people who exit will enter this stage a little bit earlier, but there's something about a bit of gray, you know, a bit of miles on the clock a few years that people are receptive to wisdom in in a different way and so as as as uh someone who's exited moves into their 50s and 60s to start to orient themselves to how do i mentor how do i become a leader in the field how do i offer up what i've learned to others then at age 90 sannyasi then you just bail out now it's all about you and you get to rest up until about the age of 120 so it's better to take a very good care of your health if you want to ever experience that this is this is the ideal this is this is kind of how we aim ourselves and then we adapt we adapt to what the world delivers to us because you know that's what the stability of inner fulfillment delivers is infinite adaptability when i'm stable in here then anything that comes out comes toward me i can adjust i can't be made i can't be broken by what happens out there, I can absolutely adjust and adapt to it.

1:17:57In a non-attached way. Right. Well done.

1:18:05So one of the problems I see in the post-exit community is that when people sell the business and then they suddenly face the necessity to understand themselves and to do introspection and to learn new skills. Often, without realizing it, they get very scared and they just run back into a more familiar situation, which becomes a comfort zone over the years, which is just building another business or getting involved with a business and kind of doing the same thing, because otherwise it's just too confusing and scary. And there's not enough guidance out there. And there's a lot of guidance which seems too much religious or there's too much mysticism around it.

1:18:54So what's your view on how that person should be guided to not get scared and run back, but to start that very different journey, and how that person could be encouraged to believe that they will achieve an even better success may be defined differently if they dare to search for that different kind of expansion or growth it's very important to be uncomfortable with a little discomfort to be comfortable with some discomfort that if what i'm trying is to just feel okay i'll say this about meditation sometimes Oh, my meditation was really uncomfortable. I had some feelings bubbling up. I had thoughts that I didn't like.

1:19:54I said, well, good. Stuff is being processed. Put clothes in the laundry. It's not all pretty. During the process, don't confuse the process with the outcome. Meditation, there might be some scrubbing that needs to go on. Some old stress needs to clear out before I have the experience of feeling better after meditation. Sometimes exercise is a little bit uncomfortable, but afterwards I'm always glad that I spent that time in the Pilates studio. It might be uncomfortable to engage in something new. That doesn't mean it's not good because always the very best things have come from stepping into the unknown.

1:20:44every, every person who's built a business didn't know if it was going to work. Even if you believed in it, absolutely. At some very basic, very profound level, we don't know if this is going to work. Who knows? And it was that who knows, but I'm going to leap anyway, that really brings the excitement. But then we get a little bit lazy, emotionally and intellectually oh but i like it when it's going well yeah you know it's why you go to the same restaurant every week because i know i can order this it's going to be fine and you know i'll always default to this because at least i know what's happening it's why people love a chain store because they know what they're getting and for most people being comfortable not stepping into the unknown is what they desire.

1:21:43And what do I say to, to the person who's made and sold a company and now expresses that they're looking for comfort? I say, really, really, come on, come on. Like you're smarter than that. You know that that's not actually, that's going to be uncomfortable that's going to be uncomfortable really fast because comfort the word for this in sanskrit is santosha which means contentedness and we would say the enemy of enlightenment is premature contentedness you know i'm all i feel i feel all okay i've kind of arranged my life to be really comfortable and easy and you're going to get bored. You're going to blow up your marriage.

1:22:36You're going to do something stupid financially. You're going to just do something to feel interested and engaged and alive. So instead, be uncomfortable. And being uncomfortable might mean doing nothing for a while. Just collecting information. And if I'm used to doing and achieving and all I'm doing is exploring, it's hard that's hard that's hard but it's always the good work requires some effort you know it's there's nothing wrong with it being hard and you know your audience knows that yeah if if you really stop and think about it hard is going to be good yeah comfortable look out look out because if you're comfortable that's when that's when the vultures move in yeah i guess it uh i like seeing when people take some time to heal after the whole marathon of running the business i think it's also very important but then they get bored and then exactly as you say uh sometimes very destructive forces show up in their lives and yeah and because lead to tragedy we get we get addicted to adrenaline absolutely and you know many of the people you work with will have been running on caffeine and adrenaline for decades and and we do become adrenaline junkie and also dopamine junkie in in in some senses but one neurotransmitter i'm interested in is actually serotonin because serotonin helps us to understand that we have enough yes and i think before moving into a spiritual journey it's extremely important to also feel that you have enough in terms of the success you chased before you have money have enough respect from others you've proved yourself yes and that's going to serotonin territory isn't it isn't it absolutely we're talking about the endocannabinoids, all of the, you know, cannabis is a poor imitation of anandamide and dopamine and serotonin, these endogenously internally produced bliss chemistry.

1:24:57That is what we see when we measure a meditator, no matter what they're thinking about or feeling, you know, even the person who's, you know, thinking about that stupid zoom call and that thing that person said and how could they and that's so terrible what we see is their body flush with bliss chemistry with all three of them yeah absolutely oh interesting absolutely and you know that's natural chemistry of the body it's not natural to be stressed and to be anxious it's usual it's the average for a long time right so yeah short short short stress it is it is biologically correct to respond to a demand.

1:25:41And that might mean elevated adrenaline for a short time, but it's not for a week and it's not for a day and it's not even for an hour, you know, because you can't run a bear can run at about 35 miles an hour for evidently an unlimited amount of time like you know they can just do it and do it and do it Usain Bolt can run about 23 24 miles an hour for about a minute we can't get away from anything we're terrible runners our fight flight is not designed to be long-term it's designed to be short-term and if some demand comes we want to respond to it but then come back to normality and normal is the neurochemistry of a toddler they're happy they fall down they scrape their knee they cry for a minute and then they're happy and they toddle off and this is the emotional and neurochemical flexibility that a meditator starts to develop and this baseline that we return to what becomes our new normal of that basically happy state not excitery you know not like woohoo high five kind of happiness but serenity and inner contentedness yeah yeah this is really really important and then my social status and my postal code and my bank balance and all those things are all interesting and enjoyable and I like all of those things you know I'm and I want the my message to be really clear here that I'm not anti-material like I enjoy some nice things and it is right to enjoy those things but they don't tell me anything about who I am I know who I am as a meditator you know who you are it's why you can sit in that chair and talk with the insightfulness that you do with the people in the way that you do because you've done the work over time and you have created that stability and you've been in the world and engaged you've got the combination you've got the experience you've got the you've been on the journey you haven't just you know sat in a cave it's easy to be the buddha on the mountaintop take the buddha off the mountaintop, then it gets hard.

1:28:16You know, take the monk out of the mountains and put him in central London and get three kids to school on time and make sure that then you're on your Zoom call at the right time and manage to get yourself some lunch and deal with the workers downstairs and the neighbor who's being a bit of a pain. And then, you know, try and have a romantic moment somewhere along the way and you know the monk can't handle that actually it's easy to be enlightened in a vacuum but get in the world that's where the real that's where the real test from comes from and that's where that that ability to return biologists call it the return to homeostasis homeostasis balance it is correct to respond when we get knocked off center but then what we want is to come back quickly to let let go and move on let go let go let go meditation it's a practice of letting go like something goes great let go something goes terrible let go just move on what's next what's next beautiful so we have meditation we have ayurveda we have sustainable exercise sustainable exercise we have wise and trusted counsel yeah we have someone that we can turn to as a mentor and we have giving back in you know in whatever way that manifests for you you know some people that's volunteering some people that's making monetary contributions though those can be kind of easy you know and people with you know we know that the numbers are really clear that people with more wealth give a significantly less smaller percentage they don't feel it and people with less actually give a bigger percentage and feel it and feel connected to a community in a different way and we want to feel connected to a community so developing community is a really good thing you know we want to be careful and as diverse of a community as we can create for ourselves.

1:30:37It's the stratification of our society and the bubbles. We mentioned this before, the bubbles that we live in. You know, it creates a distorted view of the world. And I think especially a responsibility for those who have more resources to recognize and really have the experience of people who don't have that because that's the greatest proportion of the world. That's the way most people are experiencing the world. And it's very easy for life to get organized in a way that I feel a little distance from people who are experiencing life differently. Yeah. Yeah. And that, again, is something that develops really easily and really naturally and really joyfully when we're connected to ourselves and when we're looking for the opportunity, you know, to have a chat with the postie is revealing of the world in a way that creates threads of connection.

1:31:52and that community you and i were talking about this before we started recording about you know giving back more than just to your family you know because the it's so easy to be for family to be an extension of me yeah you know oh i'm going to take care of something other than me i'm going to spend a lot of time on my nails you know i'm going to get beautiful manicures it's good to take care of something other than me these nails aren't me right there's something else i'm taking care of myself if I you know I my my daughter is 10 and like it is all about how can I how can I help her figure out a great life for herself yeah and that's a little bit of an extension of myself and I want I'm it is something I challenge myself to do is find ways to give to something broader than just what I feel connected to.

1:32:54It's interesting when we go to India, I, you know, there, there are a lot of people who live on, on the street there in very, you know, very extreme circumstances. And, and I say to the retreat participants, you know, if you feel moved to offer a little bit, you know, I think that's a, that's a great thing. you know we we stay in one particular area and there are a few characters there who who you know i've become friendly with over the years you know i say it's you know you feel connected to to one of these people give them a little bit and then give a little bit to somebody you don't feel connected to at all you know like actually stretch yourself emotionally outside of what feels most, again, most comfortable?

1:33:46Most comfortable. How can I get a little bit uncomfortable? Yeah. So talking about traveling and the importance of exploring the world, what kind of traveling you think would be the most beneficial for someone who is on this path of becoming that better, more impactful person? Yeah. Yeah. The things that I've seen people do often have to do with giving back. You know, there's so many amazing organizations that will put together a combination of, you know, how can you give monetarily, but how can you also be on the ground and see what's happening as a result instead of being a little bit distant.

1:34:39And so to contribute to an organization and then go and build the library with them is a really different thing because you meet people who are there. You see the work. You get to do something. And there's something about physically being involved and engaged. I love going to a place and seeing the sites. but I think it's easy to sort of have a list of the sites that you want to see and you know kind of taking them off and okay I have the satisfaction of having done everything in this city that I was supposed to but I didn't go and sit in a cafe and actually strike up a conversation with the barista and get a little or go to the little local market and negotiate for a pair of, you know, flip-flops.

1:35:38That you don't want. Yeah. Why does my daughter want these? Okay, fine, fine. Let's get the flip-flops. And, you know, deliberately overpay a little bit because it's always good to pay your tourist tax.

1:35:52You know, to actually be in the world that you are in and settle in for a little bit. One of my, we took about six months and traveled around India. It was a real moment of things were going well. It would have been just a couple of years after you and I met. Things were going really well in both London and in New York. And to Jillian's credit, she said it all feels a little bit uncomfortable. Or a little too comfortable. Too comfortable, I think. Too comfortable, and that is uncomfortable. We need to shake things up a bit. And so we just stopped. We stopped and we said, we're going away. we need to do what we're telling other people to do and and we went and traveled around india for about six months and it was the places where we stopped and you know there's so many amazing things to see but when we stopped and spent three days in a town it became a little bit local to whatever degree that you can when you don't speak the language and all and you look completely different all that you're not going to become a local but you get to witness with a little bit more more depth yeah and maybe experience also rather than just observe yes yes i think you're absolutely right to to live in instead of just skate over is a really really different different thing i know that you like to combine meditation breath work but you haven't mentioned breath work today?

1:37:29Yeah, I think, you know, breath work works at the level of the physical. And so it's a good way to get in for some people. So pranayama, prana means breath or life energy and yama means administration. So pranayama is the administration of the breath to prepare for meditation. So we use that very specifically prior to meditating. When, when people have been meditating for a while, they can learn this additional, additional technique. Breath work on its own, I think is, you know, until someone learns to meditate, it's a good, it's a good entryway. It's something, you know, you can watch some YouTube videos and get a little bit and even better to work with somebody a little more closely it is using the body to impact consciousness it's more powerful to go the other way consciousness is the source consciousness consciousness creates the body consciousness becomes the body consciousness conceives the body so it's coming from there you can go the other way so if I squeeze my fist really tight and I let go I actually feel a little bit more relaxed inside if I'm creating the circumstances by which I'm always relaxed inside then I don't find myself tight like that and so I'm a fan of breath work and uh and it would be second on the list for me after meditation in the sense that it's a supporting mechanism and it's accessible and i think people should do it if they're drawn by it how do you define consciousness uh that this topic is discussed a lot now in connection with the ai developments because we suspect that's all we'll have left and people are trying to figure out what is it exactly we're gonna have because we want to hold on to it as tight as we can how do we keep in mind yeah but what is it it's already not ours consciousness is awareness consciousness exists i'm conscious you're conscious our pets have some consciousness you know a sunflower demonstrates some of the aspects of consciousness it responds to stimuli in the environment it follows the sun across the sky consciousness exists modern physics tells us that there is one thing in the universe there's one whole indivisible thing the unified field if we break down all of this stuff it's not stuff it's not individual things it is a field of energy and a potentiality that when you put your attention on it, rises up and forms what seems to be stuff.

1:40:43But actually, all of this is just a wave on that underlying field. You're a very elegantly complex wave on an underlying field of energy and intelligence, and that field is conscious. It is consciousness, because consciousness exists, and there's only one thing. So a quality of that one thing must be consciousness. It's not is something conscious or unconscious. It's how conscious is it. And so far, the human nervous system has the greatest complexity and therefore is the most developed expression of consciousness that exists in everything. You know, this chair has consciousness, but it's pretty sticky, you know, heavy, not very adaptive consciousness.

1:41:43AI is starting to be more expressive, but it's still mechanical. It's still mechanical. Let's see. Let's see. it's a it's an exciting moment in the evolution of consciousness because what it asks of us is to be more creative and more generative and more perspective and less merely reactive it's going to ask more of humanity and that's you know that's an exciting time to live in as opposed to just kind of cruising along, consuming stuff. We get to be more.

1:42:33Do you have a sense of purpose, and how do you define it? Purpose. Me personally. Me personally. Yeah, it turns out that I never wanted to be a teacher. Both my parents were teachers, And so, you know, maybe one way of responding to that is to try to not be that.

1:43:01It kind of came to me. You know, I've done a lot of different things in my life. And if you looked at my CV or you looked at my, if I had everything that I've done on my LinkedIn profile, you'd think, what is this guy doing? Like all over the place. Until I became a meditation teacher. And then suddenly it made sense. You know, I was an actor for a little while. And, you know, I can stand in front of a group of 600 people and give a 20-minute talk. And I feel comfortable enough to do that because of those skills that I developed. And I worked in PR. And I know how to deal with press. And that turned out to be a useful skill.

1:43:44And I created big educational events for thousands of people. and you know now i can put together a retreat with 80 people in some far-flung place i've got this weird amalgamated skill set that came together and it was like oh this is what i'm meant to do you know what's what's my purpose

1:44:13you thank you in in the sense that it's a compliment absolutely and and and i i take it reflectively as that in that you're doing what i hope meditation brings to every meditator to whatever degree it does which is makes them better and happier and more able to give and here you are doing this thing like this is this refractive moment of oh my gosh this is exactly why i do this so that to whatever degree i can help someone on their journey trigger those changes then they can they can pass that on to to others and so i'm a facilitator and how would you define purpose for everyone universally what is it it's about creating connection it's about experiencing unity the oneness of everything and nature the universe is evolving it's getting better even though there's bumpiness along the way doesn't seem that way yeah i know sometimes you look at the front page of the paper and it does not look that way look at the front page of the paper versus the theoretical front page of the paper from a thousand years ago you know the dark ages today's front page looks a lot better actually a whole lot better if we draw back enough the world is evolving it is getting better our purpose is to contribute to that evolution in the very best way that we can you know to lift up others to make things a little smoother to create expansion of happiness for ourselves and everyone around us because of the feeling of happiness the feeling of bliss that is the experience of unity of oneness, of wholeness.

1:46:32And if we're experiencing that, then we know we're on the right track. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Beautifully said. What an amazing conversation. I'm not done with you yet.

1:46:53Excellent. But I do know that you need to be somewhere. Oh gosh, I sure do. Yes. Then I'm wrapping up, even though I wouldn't. Yes. But I'm wrapping up. So how do you want to be remembered? Well, none of us get remembered for very long. I hope that the people that I come in contact with remember a positive experience, It's remember a feeling of uplift and a feeling of connection and positivity. And, you know, if there's more detail to that, then that's great. But really it's at that feeling level of I hope that people. It's the campsite rule. You know, if you go camping, leave the campsite nicer than when you found it.

1:47:49Yeah. Okay. and I hope that's everyone's experience when they encounter me Absolutely but I'm personally so grateful for you for making me a better person Well thank you for that it means so much to know it