Pete Henderson. War Journalist Turned Exited Founder

0:28Welcome to the Exit Paradox Podcast. also a best-selling author on the mission to fight global hunger. Talking to Pete is like watching an action movie. Pete, thank you so much. It's extremely exciting to have you here. I'm delighted to be here as well. Thank you very much for inviting me. Pete, when we first met, you actually shocked me with a statement. And the statement was that you were on a mission to end the world hunger. How did that happen? How did you get there? I'll start a little bit earlier on in my life where I grew up in South Africa. I was born in South Africa during apartheid, a terrible time for the history of the country, which meant I also by law had to go to the South African army and put on a uniform and travel to Southern Angola and fight against the Russians and the Cubans as a 19-year-old young man.

1:23Coming out of the army, I got a job with CBS News as a cameraman. And one of my first assignments was to go back into Angola, but this time into the officer's mess of the enemy that we'd been fighting 18 months previously to interview them. So suddenly this was an incredible experience. I was witnessing history unfolding in front of me on a daily basis. One as a white privileged South African, as a member of the sort of diabolical regime. now suddenly talking to the enemy who were now liberating their country rather than us thinking we were being invaded and it gave me the sense of curiosity thinking you know what's right what's wrong is it your where you come from or where you're going to what sort of defines you as a human being and it was a fantastic time to do that because at 21 you basically are fearless you're inquisitive you've got adventure you've got so many the world's your oyster really so i i started working as a freelance news cameraman traveling around the world and because I was from Africa clearly the stories on my doorstep were places like Somalia, famines in Ethiopia, Eritrea and Ethiopia, wars and the unrest in my own country of course as well.

2:38So I came across some terrible tragedies really from famines to wars to disasters and there were three things that basically filled me every time I saw that. I saw people who were displaced. They were always scared. They were cold and definitely hungry. And it always bothered me that I never had enough way of helping them. I could make a film and I could tell the world about it and I could mobilize, you know, actually mobilize huge events. We were the first people into Rwanda, for example. I was in Johannesburg and we were filming the inauguration of President Mandela, who was becoming the first black president of South Africa.

3:20And this really polite gentleman walked into our edit suite with, in those days, a VHS tape. And he gave it to me and said, put this in your machine and have a look at it. And I did. And I was astounded because there were these bodies floating down a river and going over a weir. And I counted like 30, 40 bodies a minute just flowing down this river. And I could see the tape hadn't been edited. There were no jump cuts or anything. and I said to him, where is this and what's going on? He said, this is Rwanda. There's a massacre going on in Rwanda and this is a little border town called Goma. You guys need to get there.

3:55Nobody had heard about this at all and so the next day I got two guys to fly to Kinshasa. We picked up a French Alouette helicopter with the French Foreign Legion and we flew into this dusty town of Goma and it was stranger than witchcraft to most of the locals as we set our camera up and turned the film, the camera towards the border crossing, where literally tens of thousands of people were just falling down at our feet and dying because they had been massacred by the Hutsi and Tutsi war. I felt really guilty. I felt I couldn't really do anything. And then two days later, I saw the runway being extended, Hercules planes landing, the UN getting involved, blankets, water, food.

4:38we mobilized the world's attention really because of the fact that we were now witnessing this and broadcasting this event to the world so in a small way I started to give back through technology through exposure through our contacts you know I picked up the phone to Steve Cassidy in Atlanta on the CNN news desk and I'd say hey Steve it's Pete in Goma this is what's happening and I put the pictures up on the satellite and then CNN would broadcast it globally around the world and then everybody else would sort of follow suit. So in answer to your short question with a very long answer that was the first time that I recognized our ability through technology and access and understanding of the environment that we're in we could make a difference.

5:27So we were saving people's lives through sharing what was happening. Later on in life when I had sold the business and done And other things, I look back on that time and I thought, well, actually, if I could find a way to help feed people a better product, that would make a massive difference to many, many people's lives. And during those early days, if we were in South Sudan, in a place called Juba or NewSight, you'd look up in the sky and a Hercules would be flying over you. The back door would open and 25 kilogram bags of maize would be thrown out the back of the plane. Now, if one of those bags didn't hit you on the head and kill you, and you're lucky enough to pick it up, it was too heavy to pick up.

6:11You know, two or three kids would have to carry it. They'd have to find water. They'd have to cut down a tree, make a fire, make a pot of food. They would then eat it. They'd get really full. They'd have a carbohydrate spike. And they would go to bed exhausted and wake up hungry. There was no nutrients at all in that. and when I invested a few years later in a protein production farm in Poland I saw that we were making spirulina, a microalgae and I thought wow that's a high form of protein if we could create a food bar that would be really nutritious and doesn't need water, doesn't need heating, cooking, refrigeration and we could put 7 ,500 of these on a pallet we could pop that out the back of a plane and these people would have instant food so having created now what i regard as most probably the healthiest thing on the planet that somebody who's displaced or in an emergency needs um the the food bar we now need to work with partners to have it um distributed around the world and you know obviously the best people to do that are united nation organizations world food program unicef undp iom all those different people.

7:25Getting into those programs is pretty tough. You have to go through an interview process, you have to send them your ingredients, it has to be verified, it has to be checked. And we've now got to a point where we've just been sent a request to register as a supplier for sending food into Gaza. So one of our challenges now is saying to the UN, guys, we've invented something that's really unique and different and new it's nutritious it's good for you it's great um let's find a way to work with you where you can take advantage of this opportunity rather than lose out while you wait for us for another two years to you know sell to other people so i'm looking for ways to work with the government bodies un agencies organizations i mean a perfect one would be Andrew Mitchell from the UK government.

8:15They've just sent a plane load of aid to the Middle East. We're a UK company producing UK food. There's no reason why we shouldn't be on that aid plane. And that to me would be a great way of the UK sitting forward, getting involved and making an impact together. It's perfect because actually it shows why you're doing what you're doing now. But now I want to go back and explore this a little bit in a greater detail. If you don't mind, I really want to know what your parents expected from you when you were a child. My father died when I was 10 years old. He was a prisoner of war during the Second World War.

8:57And the Red Cross very kindly gave him hundreds of cigarettes every day to sit and smoke. So he got lung cancer and died when I was 10. And I was furious. I really felt that life had been unkind to me. I didn't have a father to play in the football match or build go-karts or play cricket with. And I went to my grandmother and I said to her, you know, I'm really annoyed by this. And she said to me, I wouldn't be annoyed. This is a blessing. I said, how can losing your father be a blessing? She said, you have a guardian angel. And I said, what's that? And she said, look over your left shoulder. You may see him.

9:32I looked over and there was nothing there. And she said, he's an Irishman and he's going to allow you to do whatever you want to do in life and look after you. if your dad had been alive he most probably would have wanted you to go to Oxford University and become an engineer you now have the opportunity to invent whoever you want to be and go wherever you want in life and always feel secure that there's somebody looking after your best interests and then did you go to Oxford no in fact I had a I went straight from the army to becoming a cameraman seriously excited because I'd been accepted to go to the Los Angeles film school as a cameraman and on the last weekend that I was in South Africa I was visiting a primate game reserve and I went with the person I'd met the night before at a party and we went up to this game farm and the big highlight of the day was to go and film some baby lion cubs so we got out the Land Rover walked over to where these cubs were and there was an enclosure between us and the lions but i got my camera out and i was filming these baby cubs and next thing i got whacked like so hard and so violently that i thought that somebody had driven the land rover into me but as i turned around the lioness mother had basically come back and i was between her and her cubs and she felt threatened and she pounced to me i put my hand to protect myself and my hand went right in her jaw and her teeth went through my arm here bit this finger right off smashed this soul hound and now has been eaten alive by this lioness.

11:07Jill grabbed me by the arm, Vili Jbert had me around the waist, the lioness had me by the arm and there was this tug of war going on between us and I couldn't imagine this amazing noise. I didn't know where I was coming from until I realized it was me screaming and it was like so loud and there was a white flower with a yellow center on the floor that I was just looking at and this whole thing of oh my god I mean eaten alive by a lion and let go of my hand because I want to hit it on the nose and anyway the lioness luckily let go and it all fell over in a heap and I picked my finger up off the floor, stuck it back in the hole.

11:37All my tens had come out so I wound these tendons around and I looked at my head and thought oh that's pretty unlucky. Well it took six hours to drive me to the closest hospital and on this undulating dirt road all the way down towards Pretoria I was going in and out of consciousness. I was really really painful as you can imagine because all my tendons were exposed and anyway I got to the hospital eventually onto the operating table and he just put the drip up and the surgeon came along and he like looked at this and he said I'm going to amputate your hand I said what the whole hand he said yep six inches above the wrist I'm going to chop your hand off I said isn't that a bit severe do you think I could have a second opinion I went to the reception and I said can you give me an ambulance to take me to another hospital I said no the adult hospital You can't use it, I think.

12:24You'll have to call a private one down the hall, use the call box. I called my parents, and luckily my brother answered the phone. I said, Stuart, I've been eaten by a lion. He said, what? Anyway, he sent a private ambulance. He got me to a different hospital in another city in Johannesburg, took another hour to get there. And then when I woke up in the morning, I thought I'd made a terrible mistake. So you feel that? You're one of the few people in the world that's touched my groin. Because they're stuck behind, it's my leg. And my leg kept my hand alive. And my whole leg was basically keeping my arm alive because it was so badly mauled and eaten.

12:59It was called a full groin grab. And then they basically eventually, after a few weeks, they released it. And I was in hospital for about nearly nine months, basically recovering. But the interesting part of this whole story is during those nine months, I had no right hand that I could use. So I played table tennis left-handed, shaved left-handed, all that kind of stuff. And then when I eventually got out, I started kicking a football left-footed. and I'd gone from being dominant right to dominant left. And then I became creative from being technical before I was a cameraman. And then suddenly I was now creative.

13:31You're kidding. And I started producing and doing production and doing other stuff and writing that I'd never had before. And I'm now not good at giving directions if I say go that way. It's a bit confusing. But I survived being eaten by a lion and now I'm left-handed. That's incredible. I love this. Thank you so much for the story. this is so cool and then I built up my business and after 10 years I sold it and I always had a bit of a sort of inferiority complex I've never been to university so somebody said to me why don't you go to Harvard I said Harvard are you mad they'll never accept you at Harvard this will just try apply so I applied and I think I got in because I applied from Kenya and they probably hadn't had very many Kenyans apply.

14:18But I was accepted and I did a three-year executive OPM course at Harvard Business School. And frankly, that sort of changed my life. I did it at a time when I'd sold my company. I was 40 years old. I had had many years of adventure and fun and accumulation of wealth and purpose. And I'd got to a point where suddenly at 40 I thought, well, what now? You know, I've lived 10 lives, I guess, compared to most people. But yet I was married, still married happily, with three kids. It was six, eight, and ten. But I had accumulated enough money in the bank to pretty much do anything I wanted to do. And it was a big question.

15:02It was quite a tough question. What next? How do you actually go from having done so many things that other people couldn't imagine that you could do, To a point where now you're in a position where you could do whatever you want. Let's go back to the very first business you built. Why did you do that? My first business was, I was basically a DJ. Excellent. Why? At school, I don't know. I thought it would be quite cool to stand behind the turntables at the school dances and play records. And I realized that was quite a cool business because I got paid to have fun. and then I rented a little town hall in a seaside resort of Canton on Sea.

15:44I think it cost 30 rand for the whole thing and then we had like 200 people arrive each paying a rand to get in and I realized, wow, this is extraordinary, you know, getting like having fun and doing well. So I had my mum working for me in those days. So that was my discotheque that paid for my university and basically taught me that if you can imagine, you can do it. and then once I got into my television business after working as a freelance cameraman I realized that a camera earned more money than the cameraman now a camera in those days cost fifty thousand dollars that was a big amount of money it was more than a big house you know cost so I went to the bank and I said hey guys I want to borrow fifty thousand dollars and they said sure what house you're buying I said I'm buying a camera what are you gonna do with it I'm gonna take it into sweater into the township on your bike mate so after i went to three or four banks i was really disappointed and i went back to the nbc bureau chief a woman called heather allen i said hey heather i can't supply my own camera and be a cameraman for nbc she said have you got a passport i said yep and i said jump in a plane go to london go to tottenham court road meet rachel she's got my checkbook go to barclays i'll pay you fifty thousand dollars go to bazingstoke and speak to Peter Christmas, get a camera and be back in South Africa on the weekend, you're filming in a township.

17:03So I couldn't believe my luck. I hardly even knew this bureau chief. Anyway, nine months later, I paid her back every cent for lending me the money. And I said, how much interest do I have to pay? And she said, No, there's no interest, you just have to pay forward, help somebody else one day. And I was overwhelmed. I mean, you know, she had really taken a chance on me. But suddenly, I had a camera that was earning$500 a day. I was earning$250 a day. And I saved up for another camera. And now I was getting$1 ,000 a day. And then another camera. And then suddenly, I started having like eight or nine or 10 cameramen working for me.

17:39And then by this stage, I'd left South Africa and moved to London and really like it. So moved to Cyprus in the Middle East. And I had a media company based in Cyprus, providing camera crews and equipment to CNN and BBC and German TV and all these different people. And the one thing we did is we then bought a satellite, and we were doing live television. So when you saw Peter Arnett on the roof of the Orashid Hotel in Baghdad, we were broadcasting live television back to CNN. And suddenly, we were selling our television by by the minute and so um you know from five hundred dollars a day for a camera we were now you know maybe you know five hundred thousand dollars a day for all our services after that so very quickly the company by the time i sold it was generating over 380 million a year so it was a very big business and um that that was how it grew from nothing and no debt just from a camera been lent to me by Heather Allen.

18:37Incredible. How long did it take? 10 years. It took 10 years and it was an incredible adventure and it didn't really even feel like work. It was just like, you know, there was a group of people who went from covering the Olympics in Seoul to covering a riot in Rio to a war in Afghanistan. And we were all mates basically having fun, traveling around the world, doing extraordinary things, you know, from Chechnya to Russia to, you know everywhere Bucharest I mean it was an incredible journey amazing fun so when it was over can we go back to that moment you sold the company you got your big fat check how did you feel so I walked out of my office with a cardboard box with a couple of photographs and got into my then convertible Mercedes sports drove home to my big house in Surrey that you know had horses and indoor swimming pools and tennis courts and I felt on top of the world but I also felt oh my goodness what what happens now and I think any advice is just take a rest don't don't rush don't think you have to reinvent yourself don't think you have to go and do it all again too quickly I think just looking up looking out looking around taking a deep breath of oxygen and actually looking at the other quadrants of your life which is your health your well-being your mental health your family your kids the environment other people all of those things you tend to ignore in your first business because it's all about accumulation of me me me me and us more more more but when you get to that other point think wow actually you know what i've missed out on quite a few things and i remember walking down the beach once and i met an old friend of mine who was a farmer and i said hey trevor how are you doing he said oh i'm really cross and i said why and he said well, my rugby team just lost the rugby.

20:31And I was like, I wanted to tell him everything I'd done for the last 10 years and where I'd been and who I'd seen and all the presidents I'd met. But yet his life was just a farmer on a beach and his simplicity of being annoyed because his rugby team had lost made me actually realize that life is not all about being 100 miles an hour accumulating all the stuff. It's about actually being in the moment. And I'd been so busy coming from and going to, I'd forgotten to just be. And so when I sat and thought for a second, I'm just going to be, it was an incredible feeling of enjoyment, really. You just think, okay, I deserve to be here.

21:11And I've got a lot of people around me that are important to me that I'm going to take care of. And I'm going to just, I'm going to think for a while, because if you don't think, you make mistakes. You don't remember where you've come from. You can't imagine where you're going, but most of all we don't really appreciate where you are. How long that healing, that just being lost, before you started feeling that you actually wanted to do something else? I don't think I felt anxious to do anything else since then. It's basically just been I do what I enjoy doing now. And I enjoy spending time with people that I like being with, people who are positive, people who don't drag you down, people who aren't negative.

21:49so I surround myself with positive people who have a reason for being and it doesn't have to be selfish being it's just giving more than anything else people who slightly enlightened to lateral thinking I mean one of the happiest somebody said to me Pete what makes you happy and I thought that's a really tough question and after a while I actually figured it out and and it's it's recognizing happy moments that makes me happy so if I see a kid running across a park and hugging their mother and I acknowledge it as a happy moment or the sun shining or something beautiful is happening around you or somebody says something that's nice basically acknowledging happy moments enough times during the day makes you feel happy when you go to sleep at night because life's not like a bank account you can't just take take take and expect it to be there forever you need to give back a little bit you need to give in a way that can be as simple as writing a letter to somebody who you haven't written to for a long time or donating some money to somebody or driving an old person to the store but just actually being considerate to others and giving back is a really important part how long did it take you from the sale of the first business to start a new business I think it took six months.

23:05Oh. And the reason was we sold the business. We moved to Kenya. We had a beautiful house on the Nairobi National Park. I was going to watch kids play sport. And I came home one day in the middle of the afternoon. My wife said, Pete, I married you for better, for worse, but not for lunch. I said, what do you mean? She said, well, I'm going to do something. I'm actually going to do something with your day. Like, are you going to get a job? and I said I was quite enjoying this not having to work she had too much of you by then so she said you know surely you must be doing something so a friend of mine called me and said he was going to South Sudan to interview John Garang the rebel leader of South Sudan would I like to go I thought that'd be fun I used to be a cameraman for the BBC once a long time ago so I took my camera and I flew into South Sudan and met with John Garang the rebel leader and I was interviewing him thinking I'd sell the video to the BBC and that would be my job while we were talking I was intrigued because here was a man running an entire war in South Sudan with virtually no communications and I said how do you communicate he said on the radio and I said you don't have an email he said no I said you have a phone he said no I said that's nuts you should have a 20-foot container here you should have german high-speed broadband us dial tone and you should have a command center and he said well how do i do that i said well i can do that and he said okay how much would that cost i said i'll give you one i'll give it to you for free and he said how long will that take i said a couple of weeks well i must let him because it took me four weeks i went back to nairobi i got a 20-foot container filled it up with all the equipment and we drove it back into south sudan across the bush and when we got there we didn't quite know how to unload it because it It was a big container on the back of a lorry.

24:56So we took everything out and we tied a big steel cable to the back of it and tied it to a tree and we drove the track out and collapsed in the dust and we put all the equipment in. And John Garang and I sat in this happy box and I got JohnGarang at Yahoo.com. Got him in his first email. And they loved it. This thing just changed their lives. He was calling his sister in Australia. They were calling America. They were having the most amazing time. And he said, I now want one of these happy boxes in all the villages. and I don't want to walk into the box. I want to walk and talk. I said, well, that means you need a GSM mobile phone network.

25:29He said, okay, well, let's do that. I said, okay, we'll be partners. Done. I said, how much are you putting in? He said, what do you mean? I'm the rebel leader. I don't put money into these businesses. I said, well, if you want to be a partner, you have to put money in. I think I'm the first person ever to get a million U.S. dollars out of the South Sudanese Liberation Army, the SPLA, because they put a million dollars in. I put some money in and we formed this network called Network of the World Now. So I flew back to Nairobi and said, hey, JJ, I'm now in the mobile phone business. I said, good.

26:00So I set up the first mobile phone network in South Sudan, and it was during the Comprehensive Peace Agreement talk. So I was under a huge amount of pressure to actually get a signal out of the South before the peace treaty was signed because they needed to have their own mobile phone network operational before that. So we opened in this little town called Gay, and we had the first phone ever ring in this village. And this old man was given the task of opening the event, and he was the elder of the village. And he came in with his big sort of feathers, and he blessed the occasion and was screaming at all the demons in the bushes and picked up the phone, and we gave it to him and said, do you want to call your son who is in Canada?

26:39And he hadn't spoken to his son for 12 years because of the war. And his other son who lived there dialed his brother's number, and this guy looked, and the son answered, and he was inside this plastic box. It was like, wow. And he said, this is your father, over. He kept saying over. And the tears were just pouring down his face. And I said, just keep the phone, you can have it. But that was the impact we had. Suddenly from having no phones, within two or three days, we had kids running around selling scratch cards, we had shops opening, we had bicycles going around selling stuff, we had things coming in from Sudan.

27:11In six months, that little dusty village was now a town just because we had put a mobile phone network into it. So we created this incredible impact from nothing. In six months, we had a GSM network in place. What happened next? So the Chinese came in. And they looked at South Sudan, they looked at oil, they looked at telecoms. And they came to the government and said, we'll give you all this money and you can build a Chinese network and you don't need PEAT anymore. So it's been quite a roller coaster up to that point. So you're back with your family. What happens next? So, I mean, I still had some other good businesses.

27:47I had a mobile phone business, which was satellite phones. And that was a good business because our clients were the UN. And with all those businesses, the phone doesn't work unless you pay up front for your airtime. So we would sell the phone to UNDP or UHDR or whatever, and they'd buy the phone. And then they'd pay us for the airtime. And then we'd make like 20 % profit on every call that they made. So that kind of business was good because every morning when you woke up, you're slightly wealthier. than when he went to sleep because there was an accumulating revenue constantly going on. So there was a bit of stability on that.

28:22Is it something you started? Yeah, I started it. So mostly because I had no internet in my house in Nairobi. So I went and got a satellite dish and I stuck it up in the garden. All my friends said, how did you do that? So I set up a company called Indigo Telecom and I gave all my mates the internet. And then the UN said we're going off into southern Somalia. and I said well I went to Dubai and I got satellite phones and I basically set up this satellite telecoms company. I think the best part about that time was I lived in Kenya with my kids and I watched them grow up so they were from you know six to 18 so I went to all their football matches and their swimming lessons went on safari we climbed mountains we worked in orphanages And that 10 years was most probably from a family point of view, the most valuable and enjoyable.

29:16But when we came back to live in England, because now all the kids were boarding school in England, and my wife and I were feeling sort of isolated in Africa with the rest of the family here, coming back to England was tough because it wasn't an entrepreneurial environment with the ability to take helicopters into South Sudan and build mobile phone networks. It was far more sophisticated and less entrepreneurial. And that's when I think I started to look globally rather than locally at what I could do next. I met a Polish man, Leszek Sibek, who was staying at one of our hotels in Africa. and he said to me what do you know about solar energy renewable energy and I said nothing but it's a great idea and he said Poland is one of the filthiest countries in the world it's got black coal energy there's virtually no solar energy and he would like to start investing in that and would I be interested and I'd sort of learned going along the lines that I didn't really want to invest in other people's companies any longer because I didn't have control over it and I wasn't guaranteed it would be successful.

30:29So I went out of interest more than anything just to have a look. And when I got to Poland, I recognized there was a really, you know, sort of young market that was about to take off. If I looked at all the other markets around Poland, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, everybody was full of solar panels, but there was nothing in Poland. And that was mostly because of the strong mining unions, etc. But things were changing. So we started to build together a solar farm business and we built up around 128 megawatts of solar, which is like two or three football fields for solar, which we built up and sold to the Portuguese.

31:09And we carried on developing more projects. And along that journey, we came across a Polish-German professor who was growing microalgae. And I looked at this and what the hell is that stuff? And I realized that he was not growing spirulina that was the highest form of non-animal-based protein. So he needed some investment. My partner and I invested in his factory to create this green powder. And then when I looked at it, I thought, well, there must be something better to do than put it into yogurt or sell it into pharmaceutical or animal or fish feed. And I went back to my roots as a cameraman thinking this is the ingredients that I need for my food bar because it's like really super healthy and really good high protein.

31:52So I basically set up another company called SITE, which stands for Sustainable Impact Trading Ecosystems. So it's SITE. And SITE's ambition really is to feed people around the world very nutritious food in the best possible way, as large as we can possibly get around the world, making an impact. This company is very young. It's only been going nine months. So nine months ago, somebody said to me, what are you going to call this protein bar? So I got no idea. And they said, well, why didn't you ask your Harvard mates? I thought, wow, that's great. They're far more intelligent than I am. So I put out a short message, sort of slightly apprehensively, saying, guys, I'm making a protein bar.

32:35What should I call it? And then one very bright woman in Australia, Anna Shepard, she sent back a short message saying, mate, just call it food. So I said, you can't call it food. I mean, like, how do you trademark the word food? She said, it's no bullshit. but it's just food, mate. And I thought, well, actually, every time I've been in a truck going into a refugee camp or somewhere, the kids are all putting out their hands and their five words that they all basically say. They say good, okay, food, water, and blankets. Those are the five things that are important to them. And as a result, it's been phenomenal.

33:06We're getting huge branding awareness. I'm getting messages from the World Food Programme saying we want to send food to Gaza. And I say, yeah, our food. So it's like got a bigger personality the idea of what it was originally established for. I love that story. Yeah, it's cool. It's amazing. Okay, so what's the plan now for food? So I've seen too many philanthropic projects around the world fail because there's no business model attached to them. I mean, there are lots of really, really good causes. Don't get me wrong. And there's a lot of people who do real impact and do well. But if you want to do well for a long time and be successful, then have a business model around it at the same time.