Rick Eigenbrod. “Post-Exit Death is Inevitable”

32:55Now, another hero's journey begins. Yeah, there is an interesting trap there, which is a financial trap. At some point, I got very interested to see what is the most financially dangerous pitfall post-exit, because I started meeting more and more people who wasted so much money in the few years after the exit. And I found that actually that is starting a new business without realizing that, as you said, there is no vitality to it. Then invest in your own money into it because we don't want to bring in investors, even though we know it's easier to raise money, but we have this sort of pride. We actually want to this time around use our own money for our new venture.

33:48And then what happens when this crisis hits you that you actually no longer want to do business, you already have invested so much that you cannot stop. So you start throwing good money after bad and you get really stuck in that. And I've seen these stories again and again. And what happens is that years later, people waste so much money. They feel so horrible about the whole experience. And they end up in a much worse place than where they started. And on top of it, this is when they really don't want to talk about it. Because then it's really embarrassing. Because they also have this idea that everybody expected them to keep being successful.

34:29And they failed. And this is the saddest situation ever for entrepreneurs. Well, and I think that you may know these statistics better than I, but I think I remember reading that the probability of success of a second business is actually quite small, quite low. But I think that that's a great example. If you don't know how to think about where you are, you try to solve the problem with what created it. And there's nobody to stop you or say, wait, slow down. Right. And and so there's a whole area, as you know, of this experience, the paradox of money. You know, what's the role of money when you get it?

35:23what do you want money to buy you?

35:29And, you know, we could probably have a whole conversation about that. You've seen it over and over. I mean, people with incredible wealth who every day get on a computer to see how their portfolio is doing. You know, I've noticed an interesting evolution in how we think about money in myself and many other exited founders who exited more than a decade ago. And the evolution goes like this. After we've gone through this initial excitement about wealth and shopping sprees and all of that, we discovered that the meaning of wealth is in giving us safety, so we don't need to worry about it. So wealth properly managed can be a beautiful liberating force, which allows us to stop worrying about money, achieve that financial contentment, and then go after things that are not necessarily about chasing money.

36:28This is the first step in the evolution. Then later people realize that the meaning of wealth is also in sustaining years of this life, which is stress-free, self-discovery. It actually enables us to explore without being rushed. And then the final ultimate meaning of wealth, which I found and other people discovered as well, when you find that real purpose in a very selfless, very spiritual sense of the word, when you find what it is you can contribute to the world and get fulfillment out of it. When this happens, then suddenly your wealth, not necessarily suddenly, but gradually, your wealth becomes leverage for that purpose.

37:16And then it's a completely different meaning of wealth, and it's a very different motivation in managing that wealth. It's no longer about just getting more, but it's actually about how I can enable giving more. Let me comment on a couple of things you said. I mean, that's so rich, what you're offering your experience. And it hits a couple of things I've run into over and over and over again. What does money buy? For me, I've known money buys safety. It doesn't always buy security. Because I've seen people who are completely safe by any objective standards and who are incredibly insecure. So money by safety can't be by security.

38:07So that's one thing. I noticed something that's really important I want to point out. Notice how, I noticed how, you tell me if I'm noticing correctly, how over time the questions you ask yourself changed. When you first exited, you had a certain set of questions. Yeah. And over time, they changed. They got refined. They got more, they came more out of not fear and anxiety and pressure and social pressure and expectations and the tyranny of the shoulds. They came out of this emerging woman. And a dear friend of mine who I quote regularly, his name is Pat Murray. He said, progress is measured by trading in your old questions for a set of better ones.

39:01And John O'Donohue, the Irish poet and writer, said, questions hold the lanterns that light the way. And I think what you just said is your questions, as they changed, they got better in some way. more about coming out of you and something authentic. And they lift the way for you into what's true for you now. And so I think that notion about sort of honoring the questions, letting the questions emerge is really important and you illustrated that. Thank you for that. You know, one thing that I think about a lot these days is on the one hand, I feel so grateful that I had a chance to go through that challenge and that personal growth.

40:04At the same time, I'm thinking our life on this planet is very limited. Is there a way for people to go through this amazing journey, but without getting unnecessarily stuck in wrong places. So this is my question for you because you've seen and studied so deeply. Okay. Where do you think people get stuck most often and why? And I'm going to refer, I think it's the refusal of the call. They just refused to go on a journey that they're being invited on.

40:43Secondly, thank you, I hadn't thought about it in these terms. What I've been aware of lately, of what gets them stuck, is using the mental models, mindsets, attitudes, and resources that got them here. Building a company requires certain attitudes, mindsets, et cetera, et cetera, expertise, et cetera. Facing the blank sheet of paper is a totally different task. And so you get this, what I'm going to call negative transfer of learning. They try and apply that expertise, those mindsets, to a completely different task. Can I give you some examples? Please.

41:36So I have a list here. I'm going to refer to it. And this is new for me to have come up with this. Brute force effort. Brute force effort is no good with the task of now what? In a blank sheet of paper. Impatience. It's not, it's not, it's going to be counterproductive. And what I loved about a part of what was my colleagues in the Yale article offered was a timetable. And often when I talk to people initially, they are so impatient. They want answers really fast. They want to solve this problem. They want to beat it into submission. You know, and it's like, if that's where you are, this is not going to be a good fit because I know what it's going to take.

42:31and so this impatience stands in contrast to the timetable in the Yale article which is two years and I think you said that was about right for you right next, next, next it's great when you're running a company productivity is the key metric I remember one of my early clients and he tells a story about this. He said, Rick, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and I'm doing the other, but I don't feel productive. And out of my mouth without realizing it came this response. If you try and measure by productivity, it will get in your way. So using these skill sets, the need for control, competitiveness, the need for speed, the need for dopamine, all those things.

43:28They will get in your way because the nature of this task is really different. And that's why I think people, it's one of the reasons people have such a difficult time. Rick, given that you're a clinical psychologist and I don't have those ever on my podcast, can I pick one of those issues you just highlighted? And that's the dopamine addiction. Can you please help me understand from your professional perspective how that works and why people get stuck? And most importantly, how to overcome that addiction, which serves us very well while we're building the business, but does not serve us in that post-exit stage.

44:17If you're an entrepreneur building a company, particularly a company that's growing quickly, there's so much juice, right? And the juice can keep you going through amazing fatigue and all kinds of stuff. And so I think it is, again, it may be helpful to say and think about it, is the need for a dopamine hit is the same as a need for a hit for anything else. And we have to deal with it like we would an alcohol addiction, a drug addiction or something else. You know, those models, I think, can help us. But I think it all begins with awareness. I don't think, you know, my experience in working with some of these folks or listening to some of these folks when I talk to groups, I don't think they're aware of the extent to which the juice has them.

45:18And so I think talking about this, beginning with awareness, what is the role? To have a conversation like, let's talk about dopamine. How do you know when you're getting a hit? How do you know when you need a hit? Where do you go for it? To have this conversation, this exploratory conversation, so that you, in a sense, fatten your awareness about it. And as a colleague of mine said, don't try and change what you don't understand. So I think it starts with an acknowledgment that it's no different dynamically, physiologically, from any other addiction. And the starting place is to just notice the role of dopamine and to search for it in my life.

46:14Now I can start making interventions in small places. So once you recognize the addiction, and I have to say, in my experience, lots of post-exit founders do, there is an interesting dynamic here, which I notice quite a bit. people feel it but then they don't want to let that addiction go even even rationally because they're very scared that once it's gone they'll be very they'll be incapable like one of my friends actually uh described it as as a fear of death he says i absolutely understand but if i let go of this addiction, I'll be dead. It's not me. I'm an entrepreneur. I should keep going.

47:00That's my essence. And I refuse to stop. What would you tell that person? This entrepreneurship has them. This life has them. They don't have this life. So it really touches your heart. I would say you're right. You, as you know, you is going to die. Now, let's talk about what that means, what the anxiety pulls up, where the fear comes from. I wouldn't try and say to them, no, no, you're not going to die. You're not going to physically die. You can feel that way as addicts do. But I think what they're saying in a most profound way, it is the death of the person as I know me. It is the death of my familiar desire.

47:51and where does that leave me? And now that's the next exploration. When I work with folks early on, I give them some homework. And one of the things I ask them to do is to keep a running kind of record of their response to this question. what's it like to be me now the second thing i ask them to do is to pay attention to the sense about it's the teacher it's two t charts it's differentiation and integration what used to be true and now it's not what's true now that didn't used to be and again it's it's an awareness exercise but i wouldn't try and talk them out of the notion that you're onto something there.

48:44Natural, normal, predictable. How would you encourage people to go through this death and rebirth? Like what can help them be less scared to go through it? I think one has to just acknowledge they're not ready. They're not ready to go through this. You know, it's part of what I try and assess when I get a call from somebody is a sense of readiness. You know, and the truth is some people are not. And I can feel like crazy for them. I can want to give them a pep talk. I can want to do all kinds of things. But if it's not there, it's not there. And they have to feel worse. Is it possible to go through this transition in your experience and your professional opinion?

49:37without going through death? Can it be smoother? No. And should it be smoother? No, I think you cannot go through this without experiencing some death. The death of who I used to be. The death of the structures that gave my life a sense of stability. But part of what you need is companionship. Planionship, part of what you need is comfort, part of what you need is validation. And that's what these folks are starting to get in the groups. Oh, you're going through that too. Wow. Yeah. But I think it begins with acknowledging that's the nature of the challenge that comes with now what. and you are unprepared, generally in two ways.

50:35The focusing illusion didn't set you up to expect it. All of our narratives end with some version of they lived happily ever after. So we are ill-served. Secondly, yeah, you're going to leave some things behind. actually, here's an example. I think, I ran into this. I think you have to leave certain people behind. Absolutely. You have to. And that's one of the most painful parts of the exercise, isn't it?

51:18Yeah. They can't go with you. If they can't go with you, you got to leave them behind. And you will do anything because you're now, you know, this rich person. You will do anything to kind of reassure them that, you know, no, just because I'm rich and famous now, I'm not that, you know. And you'll try so hard and they can't go with you. You have to leave them behind. And so to experience sadness, loss, uncertainty, that's going into the woods. that's going Stephen Sondheim's play essentially says we go into the woods after we got the golden fleece we go into the woods where most of the fairy tales end that's where the real journey begins, into the dark wood and so I don't think you can take that away from people because they know what their experience is and we know what their experience is now.

52:24We've experienced this ourselves in many different ways. Do you find, Rick, in your experience, that this readiness has to do with age? I think age is a variable. The kind of map that we have historically takes us out in a striving mode to where we are, where we quote unquote retire. It was binary. It was pretty clear. It took a lifetime in Levinson's work, Seasons of a Man's Life. It took a lifetime to build the structures and then you retire. What about a 35-year-old entrepreneur who sold two businesses for a billion dollars each? It's much harder. That really is a dimension because you take the notion of this binary retirement out.

53:34And now you're looking at sequences, stages. right one of the things that folks I work with really wrestle with is answering the question what are you doing now

53:52and if you're 65 or so you can use the word retirement which by the way I think is a terrible term here's an example you're on a plane first class of course you're sitting next to somebody and this is a very American thing I've heard is Europeans don't do this. Americans. So what do you do? And you say, well, I'm building this company and we're doing this stuff. And all of a sudden you're in London because you had a fabulous conversation. Okay. He says, so what do you do? Oh, just about anything I want because I sold my company. Oh, good for you. Congratulations. Up goes the paper. Of course. And so, yes, the answer is, I think, for younger folks.

54:40And it's going to come more and more with what somebody called the democratization of success. And I think with AI helping us, it will be happening even faster, for sure. And the problems, you know, I think our philosophy, psychology, ethics are not keeping up with the speed at which science develops and technology develops. And for me, they really aren't. The biggest problems right now is actually to close that gap as soon as we can, because there will be even more of this kind of suffering we are talking about right now. And people are even less prepared for it, because with the help of AI, we'll have even younger folks having the problem of identity structure and meaning and not being prepared for it.

55:33Absolutely. But I'm very curious, Rick, from a practical standpoint. So you have a client, 35, sold two companies for over a billion age, sits on that plane in the first class. What do you tell them or recommend that they say to avoid feeling, you know, alienated and lonely in the society? I actually put together a checklist. if I could get to you before the sale. It's called checking in before you check out. I love it. Selling a business is so focused, right? But it would get far enough up, you know, back into before this event, which is all-encompassing, and begin the process of being aware of, you know, what really the complexity on the other side of, in a sense, trying to crash into the focusing illusion, reminding them of what this sale really is buying, helping them understand what life on the other side looks like.

56:50So if I had that, I'd do it.

56:57But in terms of afterwards, they're very different in terms of where they are and how much they're struggling and where they're struggling. So I just try and meet them there. One of the things that I certainly I try and bring to the table is a sense about what's getting in the way, what's getting them stuck. And can I reach into that dam and pull that one stick? They will be told by everybody around them, you need a new goal, and they don't mean a smaller one. You need a new hill to climb, and they don't mean a smaller one. I invite them to experiment with the notion of changing scale. So I give them two things in that area.

57:51One is an image. The image is, instead of looking at one big thing to replace that structure, one structure, I give them the image of a mosaic. And that mosaic has these beautiful tiles. Each one is gorgeous. And if you look at it, there's some coherence to it. and I call it the mosaic life. You can keep constructing it. So I give them a different kind of image. The second thing is I invite them to think about, and that image does it, change scale. Can you find things that in the experience of them, in the moment, have amazing engagement, energy, vitality, satisfaction? And they begin to be able to see those things that they couldn't before.

58:49And any one of those smaller things can take them somewhere else. Here's one of my favorite stories, very quickly. A guy down here in Silicon Valley was in this situation and he was taking his kid to school and there was no crossing guard and everybody was saying, God, Jim, you got nothing to do. Why don't you become a crossing guard? So he did. And he said, this was so amazing. I met people. I had conversations. I felt like I was doing something. Fast forward, out of all that, he became the mayor of the town. True story. So I think those two things can be helpful initially. And the third one is follow vitality.

59:32I think it's brilliant. And I think it's definitely a great guidance to find, you know, how to think about life again. But if we go back to a much more superficial problem, but still very important, how do we best describe to others where we are in a way that is not alienating? One of my clients had a great word for it. He called it cover. He said we need cover. And it was brilliant. I said, what do you mean by cover? He said, you know, it's what you tell everybody else and yourself you're doing while you're trying to figure out what you're doing. And I think whatever it is you say to people has to fit the two criteria that you just said.

1:00:30It has to be authentic.

1:00:36And because people are going to, what's going to satisfy them is the sense about this is true. So if you start with what's true for them, you can work your way into the language you're going to use. The other thing I think here that I've discovered is what you say depends on who it is that's asking the question. For some people, you can just flat out tell them the truth. You know, I'm out here with the gift of a blank sheet of paper trying to figure out what I want to put on it. With some people, you can tell them that. With some people, you can be playful. I've done this myself. I say, well, I'm at the point in my life, they asked, are you retired now?

1:01:28Little gray, light gray. And I have this playful thing that I do cautiously, selectively, where I say, well, at the point in my life where I serve at my pleasure, then pause for effect, and I'll do some version of this. Honey, can you remind me what my pleasure is?

1:01:54And for the right person, they will laugh as you did, and they will get it.

1:02:03and so I think it's a process of beginning with what's your situation what's true about it how will you describe that in a couple of three ways depending on the audience and they can usually come up with something as a matter of fact I just did that with someone and they were really satisfied with it. It was just great to see him go, okay, I'm not afraid to walk the streets of New York now. And if you're in New York, you're going to get that question. Absolutely. So Rick, say somebody went through a rebirth, and they see this beautiful mosaic of life and they follow what feels right. They're in touch with their vitality.

1:02:54They overcome addiction to dopamine and adrenaline and they still feel they really want to start another business and go back in the game. What would you tell these people? Go ahead. But first you got to tell me why.

1:03:18okay tell me why where's that coming from where's that coming from um okay if the answer is because i i'm now ready to contribute and i think this will give me purpose and it's something that I love doing? In that case, go for it. What would you watch for to say, maybe not? What would be those red flags for you to think, oh no, that's not the right path? Yeah. Oh, Anastasia, that's a fabulous question. I look for what I call anklings.

1:04:10They're little pinholes of light that people get. And inklings have these three characteristics. And I'll try and say a bit about these. Truth, vitality, and fear. but as I sit with them, I listen like crazy to, is what they're telling me true? Oh, I really want to go back and do this. Does it feel like it's true? And if you listen carefully to them, not just with your ears but with your tummy, you can have a sense about this is true. and it's coming from and attached to something authentic. It's not a palliative. So is it true you really want to start a company? You can feel people's energy, can't you?

1:05:10You can do this for yourself. You talk to people and you notice it in yourself. People notice it in me. God, you're really fired up about that. Oh, right, I am. So I look at truth, vitality, and here's the real thing. I look at fear. I'll look for fear. Why fear? Because if there's no fear, it means that they're not, the fear generally, if it's true, it's got vitality and fear associated with it. In some way, this inkling, if it's followed, will push them up against some developmental frontier. And I used to think the fear, oh, yeah, you're right, you could lose this, that would happen. I used to think, well, in that case, don't do it.

1:06:03No, that's what they think. So I'm looking for those three things as I'm listening to them. um i'm listening for the sense of this is the thing to do versus i don't know what else to do rick can we dig into the fear a little bit more because i'm trying to understand i'm not sure i fully understand it so for example when i when i started a business then i closed it and then And I looked back and I thought that that decision to start the business was largely driven by fears. And it was a whole cocktail of fears. One of them was FOMO because I saw all these other people, you know, running, doing great next big thing.

1:06:52There was a fear of failure and also, you know, public failure. People seeing that I was a one trick pony and I couldn't do another business. there was also, you know, there were lots of fears there, right? And now you're telling me that actually you want to have a fear when you are starting a business for the right reason. So can you help me understand that? Right. I mean, if you start a new business, there's risk, et cetera, et cetera. But if they say, I want to start a new business and it's really scary, then I want to talk about the nature of the fear. If the nature of the fear comes up with things like, I'm doing it because I, you know, something along the lines of what you said.

1:07:44I'm doing it for fear of living in shame. I'm doing it for fear of other people's, what do you call it, evaluation. I'm doing it for fear that I have these things that I should do and I'm fearful if I don't do it. Those are the things you really look for. To start a business and have fear that's legitimate, but to have fear that comes out of some undeveloped part of you, that's kind of what I'm looking at. That's the fear I'm looking at. If I go and do this, I'm really afraid that I won't get, you know, I'm doing it because if I don't do it, I won't get other people's approval. That's the developmental piece.

1:08:37So discerning what's connected to some realistic risk and what's connected to some psychological barrier or limiter is a part of the conversation. What about a fear that I'll be not capable? I don't have the skills. I won't be good enough at this. Which bucket would you put that fear in? If you say, well, this is really new territory and it's a new industry, I'll go, well, hell, you should be scared. So that would be a good fear. You would want that fear. Yeah. Right. All right. And if it's a fear of being left out while the rest of the ecosystem is developing, then it's a different kind of fear.

1:09:29So you're left out of the ecosystem. So what? So you're not in a gang anymore. So what? You can kind of bet where you're going to track that back to. In that brilliant paper of yours for Yale School of Management, you were talking about the challenge of transitioning in the mindset from being an entrepreneur to becoming an investor. But you highlight the risk of a completely different mindset that an investor would need comparing to entrepreneur. So I would love you to share a bit more of your experience, how you saw people struggle with it and what you found helpful in that transition. It's one of the paths people go down, right?

1:10:20You make a bunch of money. What are you going to do with it? Well, you can watch it. You can make it bigger for reasons you don't know, but bigger is better. That's what you've always heard. So it gives you something to do in the morning and blah, blah, blah. And the other, another path, you know, starting another business and another path is to become an investor. Private equity, private investing, et cetera. That's, that's not unusual at all. The question is, that's a structure. What purpose does it serve? tell me why you would think about doing that right it's a structure it's okay it's not illegitimate but tell me why you would want to do that okay and that's really important because it leads to this One of the things that I think people get confused is what's the purview of ownership and what's the purview of management?

1:11:33Those are very different. The roles are different. The responsibilities are different. The activities are different. The nature of the engagement is different. And people who are used to having their hand on the wheel are tempted as investors, owners, to get involved in management. Their role is in the purview of governance. So you say, what's the purview of governance? What's the role? What's the duties? What's the responsibility? What's the territory for, I'm going to call it governance, ownership, right? Governance represents owners. And watch for where they want to move into management, to the purview of management.

1:12:25Now, it's done all the time. I get it. But, you know, it's like, again, why are you getting involved over there? you know is it because they need you or is it because you you can see how they could do it better and so keeping that boundary between you know your sort of nose in and your your thumb out is a real challenge I think for people who are doers the most common thing post-exit founders crave in my experience is the sense of purpose and most people I talk to actually admit that they didn't think about business as something that gives them a sense of purpose until they lost it they only realized it was this the the source of the sense of purpose so my question to you is what do you think generally for humans is the source of this sense of purpose and why we crave it so badly after we sell the business?

1:13:33And of course, the most important bit is how do we recreate it outside of a business structure? I use the word meaning. I use the word matter. purpose is purpose is big purpose is um has this encompassing quality to it but a search for purpose becomes really hard um it's kind of elusive etc but i realize in my conversations with people i'm using the term matters what matters to you now that they can answer and and that mattering certainly has some element of purpose to it doesn't it what matters to me now is to make a difference with people who make a difference was that a purpose oh okay so i think in some way if we changed what i've done without being conscious of it till these conversations, conversations of fertile ground for emergence, including awareness, thanks to you.

1:14:46I don't even use the word purpose. Yeah, it sounds like you would replace the question with another question. It's always, always very helpful. You would basically, somebody asks you, how do I find my purpose? And you would say, what matters to you today? Can we just put that aside? That's a biggie. Talk to me about what matters to you now, now being an important thing. And it comes out of who they are now, right? Right. Mattering really is a is a is something that the identity, the sense of self selects. So I can have a much more I can invite them and me into a much more manageable arena by talking about tell me what matters to you now.

1:15:39And how do you know what what tells you it matters? and what do you do with the mattering? It just makes things, it seems to me to make things more navigable. I think it's very helpful. I really like it. But Rick, just to clarify, does that mean that you prefer that people don't think about the direction in which they should develop? You've raised another issue that I think is maybe in the Yale article. this notion about two ways of knowing and two ways of going, which I stole from Robert Irwin, the artist. How you know is how you go. And what I think in general, there are two ways of knowing and two ways of going.

1:16:30One way is what I call destination. And that's what we're used to. I'm going to get a degree. I'm going to get a PhD. I'm going to go work here. I'm going to build a company. Destination. And that's when you set another big goal. I'm going to start another company, for example. That's destination. There's another way of going, which is you use the term direction. I'm headed off in a direction of. And it's this. Yeah, it may be that thing out there that says that we might call purpose. Or I'm going to move in a direction of living according to what matters. to me um i'm gonna i'm gonna move in a direction of following the vitality and as it pops up in my life even if it surprises me uh and there's sort of two metrics for those in in generally in direction i mean sorry in destination um it's the metric is closer further In direction, the metric is more of or less of.

1:17:40How would you connect that to the sense of fulfillment? Like if I tell you, why don't I feel this deep, lasting satisfaction with my life? Like where should it be coming from? What am I missing? Help me isolate the problem. The person who is the entrepreneur in everything they build, everything that got them there, they suck at fulfillment. So true. They suck. My line to one of my clients is, you suck at savoring. They literally don't know what fulfillment feels like. They don't slow down enough to savor. One of my clients, we were talking, he said, well, I got to go. Okay, fine. I'm getting bored and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1:18:35And by the way, he's wonderful. I love this guy. He said, blah, blah, blah. I'm getting bored. So I guess I'll go walk the dog. And before I could stop myself, I said, don't go walk the dog. Go walk like the dog. The dog's never bored. You can take the dog down the same street, and they are incredibly happy. They are incredibly fulfilled. They haven't a grand time. So go walk like the dog. We have to learn to walk like the dog. And I said, what's the name of your dog? And he goes, Mojo. And I said, oh, okay, I get it, like juice. And he said, no, it stands for more joy. go walk with more joy and that's a developmental learning yeah to be satisfied to um savor um to um to feel uh you know we're so we it's back to dopamine happiness forget those things you know it's like can you feel a sense of peacefulness contentment satisfaction and it doesn't take great big things to give it to you if you are capable of taking it then i guess instead of dopamine we get serotonin and that at that point right Because nature in its infinite wisdom gave us the right biochemistry to have that feeling.

1:20:18It's just that we are not given it a chance oftentimes to let us experience the beauty of contentment and this serotonin instead of dopamine feeling. Brilliant. Brilliantly said. and I think it fits with this notion of change in scale to some extent. I have two wonderful stories. I'll tell you real quickly. One is I was in this group of CEOs, and one of the guys was complaining about selling his company, and before they threw him out, you know, blah, blah, blah. I don't know what to do. And one of the guys said, and I don't think you can do this anymore, but one of the guys said, well, you need to come with me.

1:21:02And the guy goes, do what? And he said, come with me. I'm going to the hospital and I'm going to go hold a baby. You go, what? Yeah, this hospital has, you know, lots of babies that have mothers that can't care for them. The staff can't. We know how important it is in brain development and et cetera, et cetera, for these babies to be held. So they have people like me who volunteer to come in and hold a baby. And the guy so looked at me, he said, he said, if you want to experience pure being, hold a baby.

1:21:38we can almost feel in ourselves being in the present, slowing down, sinking in when we hold a baby.

1:21:55Entrepreneurs who are looking at the next, the next, the next, the juice, the juice, the juice. That's such a different experience for us. And the other quick story is, somebody said what are you going to do this for vacation he said you know I'm into photography I think I'm going to and I have this incredible backyard I think I'm going to photograph my backyard I said oh that's well that's interesting okay so fast forward to the end of the summer and he said so how'd your summer go he said it was amazing oh my god I took so many photographs I just saw things I never saw it was I just my wife had to call me in and come to dinner and he goes oh well that's fantastic so what are you going to do next summer he said the other hey that's brilliant i love it isn't that a great story it's so beautiful um rick i am afraid we do have to wrap up even though i absolutely hate doing it and i hope maybe we can have another interview soon so I can get a bit more of your wisdom.

1:23:01But there is one question I always ask everyone at the end of an interview, and I want to ask you as well. How do you want to be remembered?

1:23:14Oh, as a man for others. That's so beautiful. Thank you so much. Jesuit High School, New Orleans. Here's where my mind's taking me now in this work, which is, it's been a gift, this work, because it's layers and layers and layers. I think we're providing now for this very unique subpopulation. the question coming to my mind is we understand the dynamics now of arrival excuse me in ways we never have i'm beginning to see this dynamic expressed all over the place i can't not see it remember i said your awareness fattens. Just to give you an example, in the same month, I got a call from an ex-Navy SEAL and an ex-British Special Forces guy, both of whom were coming out and both of whom were experiencing exactly these dynamics.

1:24:35yeah where else is there where where else in the world do we see this and what could be offered that's where my curiosity is taking me yeah i i know exactly what you're talking about because i see these parallels all the time as well i talk to people for example who are athletes and their career has peaked in their 20s, and then they wonder what to do next, and they've arrived and they're exploring their options. It's not that different from what Exeter founders experienced in its essence. We do have very particular, very different kind of fears and issues, but overall, it's also part of the arrival fallacy for sure.

1:25:24It certainly has the complexity of age as you raise. So, oh, that's interesting. What do we know about that? What can we learn about that? If we went out and talked to people, which is what I did early on. I mean, in companies, company goes public. Does that end life as they knew it? You better believe it. what's disrupted structure meaning identity um if you read the if you read the book um by the gentleman who uh ed cadmall about what happened at pixar after they they made their their first they proved you could make a first a full-length uh animated uh uh movie and he's saying what am I'm going to do, make cartoons for the rest of my life?

1:26:15And he found something, a direction to move in. What was that? He said, I realized my role and what excites me is how to enhance, protect,

1:26:34create, enhance, protect, et cetera, creativity, which is at the heart of our business. So he puts all his attention on that. That's a direction. Making movies is the destination. I love that you use the word intention because I think it's our intention that actually gives us feelings. So, for example, if our intent is to serve others rather than grab more resource for ourselves, then we do get a different kind of satisfaction than we get from the sense of achievement. Right. And if our intention is to walk like a dog, as you described, or to slow down and look at the flower, then we get yet another feeling, which is that feeling of being calm and happy and content.

1:27:23So for me, the discovery of the power in a way of intent, because this is something we can control, is probably the biggest help that I got in my journey. Because it gives this beautiful sense of, you know, autonomy and control in a very good way, in a very good sense, right? Yeah, in a good and best way. but controlling my own energy, right? Yeah. Because intent allows you to change your focus and that allows you to direct your energy where you want it to go. You've just given me a sequence I have never thought about. Inkling, intention, action. I can't wait for us to continue the conversation when you give me your feedback on that with all your professional and personal wisdom.

1:28:17I would very much love that, Rick. It was such a fantastic conversation. And again, I just hope we can continue. I can keep going for hours and days talking to you. Anastasia, selfishly, I would be delighted. And I thank you again for this incredible conversation. Thank you so much, Rick. I have this thing. I grew up in New Orleans. and I use this often, which is if you grew up in New Orleans, speaking of what matters, we have this kind of worldview, this screen, and it's like, well, if we're not going to have a good time, why would we do that? So this is a wonderful time. Thank you. Thank you, Rick.

1:29:08And again, I don't want to let you go, but I have to. so let's do it again already we made i made lots of exceptions with this interview first of all you're my first person who is not an exited founder on my podcast ever it's my longest interview ever and it's the first time when i'm absolutely determined to have a sequel

1:29:33well so it's nice to join it's nice to join you on the frontier thanks we'll be talking