Born Different, Never Held Back | Sir James Wates

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0:57Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist. YCDBSOYA. You can't do business seeing on your ass. And I've always lived by that. It doesn't come to you, you've got to go get it. If you wait for it to come, it won't happen. Tell me, who is Sir James Waits? Probably defined by a 43-year career in the family business. A very lucky guy who was born with one arm and it never held him back. To say the word I'm lucky in the same sentence, I find that really inspiring. It's probably only in more recent times that I can do notice I've got one arm. I never wanted to do anything else other than go into the family business.

1:30I always wanted to be a builder, like my daddy, like my grandfather. So when I started working for Waze during school holidays, age 15, I was starting to fill that dream. What would you say, being a proven leader yourself now as well, are the key values in leadership? How you turn up is critically important. Be judged by what you do, not what you say. We do have flexibility so people can do the school run in the morning, they can alternate and do the school run in the evening, all that sort of thing. I was talking to my younger son who's in the business and I said that occurs for everyone apart from you whose name is above the door because people will still expect you to be there at the beginning and at the end.

2:21Sorry to interrupt. I've never asked this before, but if you can subscribe and follow, that will allow me to keep bringing extraordinary guests onto the show. Now let's get back to it. Tell me, who is Sir James Waits? Probably defined by a 43-year career in the family business. And a very lucky guy who was born with one arm in 1960. And it never held him back. I always was able to get on and do things and encouraged to do things I was never wrapped in cotton wool never treated as anything different and you hear stories about people who go away to school and they're different and they get bullied and so on and I can honestly say that never happened to me so I think I was incredibly lucky and that luck I suppose gave me the confidence to just push on and do the things I've done over my 66 years.

3:23It's clearly never held you back, right, in the context of a disability that some people would play a victim mindset to, to say the word I'm lucky in the same sentence. I find that really inspiring. It's probably only in more recent times. I can't do that. I've got one arm. That's maybe because I'm getting old and not quite as strong as I used to be. But it's never occurred to me that I've got one arm. And I actually say that's out of my parents, who I remember when I was very young. You don't remember things when you're that young, but I do. My father used to take me to St. Mary's Hospital at Roehampton, which is where they did a lot of work with limous people from the Second World War, always looking for the latest technology and so on to try and help me.

4:09And I went there one day, and they fitted me with a prosthetic. I was 11 months old or something like that. and apparently I'd just started crawling and I got home and I just sat in the corner unable to move because of this thing that stuck on me. So my mother took it off and threw it in the bin and I've never had a prosthetic since. And I've always said if I'd been fitted with a prosthetic I probably wouldn't have done half of the things I've done because I wouldn't be able to play rugby with a prosthetic. I probably wouldn't have played cricket with a prosthetic. There's a lot of things I wouldn't have done.

4:42And it just, it was almost unnatural. And I recognize that people who are after prosthetics really benefit from them, but it wouldn't have benefited me. No, thank you for sharing that. You brought your mother up there and your father as well in context of early leadership values and building resilience and strength into you. And of course, that dovetails into the business conversation as well. There's a succession, if you like, in business. Did you feel a pressure coming into that to almost continue the success, but also to then perhaps define yourself in some way as well? I suppose I look at it and say, my luck continues because I never wanted to do anything else other than go into the family business.

5:28I always wanted to be a builder, like my daddy, like my grandfather. I always wanted to do that. So when I started working for Waze during school holidays at age 15, I was starting to fulfill that dream. And then when I finished college and went into the business full time, I was on that journey. And I think having that focus and then being able to do it, I think that was incredibly lucky. Because a lot of people fall into jobs, fall into things. A lot of people get very frustrated because they end up not doing what they want to do. I always did what I wanted to do and ended up having the dream job, which was chairing the family business.

6:12Do you think that was because of the inspiration through your father being that leader in the business? My point being that you were clearly watching from a young age. Sometimes the succession side of things can be bucked because the next generation wants to go and prove themselves doing something else. Whereas actually feels like you were inspired to want to do it because of what you saw. I think so. Yeah, my father and my grandfather and my uncles and all of the family who were involved in the business had a passion for the business. And we used to go around to my grandfather's. He had four sons, three of whom were in the business.

6:43And I'm in partnership with four of those cousins today. We used to go around to my grandparents every Sunday, because we all live quite close to each other, for drinks before we went back to our own homes on Sunday lunch. And the conversation was always around business. my three uncles or my two uncles who were in the business of my father they were talking with their father who had retired from the business about what was going on so you sort of you soak in it so it was always around and in sort of marinated into me I suspect I don't think deliberately but it certainly became very evident it's what I wanted to do yes you've got to be of a certain mindset to want to soak that up so my point being you had the privilege you'd be like of being around people that were proven leaders in business and then you had the mindset to want to absorb that so on that what would you say being a proven leader yourself now as well are the key values in leadership i think it's how you turn up um because people people observe people look at how you do things look at how you how you occur um and i think how you turn up is critically important.

7:52Be judged by what you do, not what you say. So it's all very well to be a leader who says, you must do this. But if you actually do it, then people follow. And I think that, again, having come up through the business, working on site, working with the salt of the earth guys in the construction sector, managing sites of my own, being a project manager. You actually get to work with people, to lead people in a different way. First in the morning, last out at night, absolutely. And it's an interesting one because the construction industry has a bit of a reputation for being hard in that context um and if you're not the first in you know you're judged as one of the losers um and we've tried to shift away from that and i think it's absolutely right because attracting talent to the industry if you're like that you won't get the best because people want to do more with their lives um you know one of the big challenges we have in construction is attracting female talent or we attract it but how do we retain it particularly when they start having families one way of doing that is being more flexible around your working practices and i think we're much better at that now.

9:11We do have flexibility so people can do the school run in the morning. They can alternate and do the school run in the evening, all that sort of thing. But I was talking to my younger son who's in the business and I said that occurs for everyone apart from you whose name is above the door because people will still expect you to be there at the beginning and at the end. Which is tough if your name's above the door. But I think that is a style of leadership. it. Others might say, well, actually, you should be leading, but you shouldn't be. You should be doing the school run. You should be doing that.

9:42I think it's hard if your name's weights. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Low energy? Unfocused? Foggy?

10:17You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist. I get that. But then I guess that's the pressure that you absorb and take on if you want to be in that position of a leader. I think so.

10:52You touched on something really interesting to me there and I've got my own construction background and there's some damning stats in the construction issue around mental health. and it's so male dominated. And one of the things I've talked to people about before is actually should there be more women in the construction industry where men don't particularly talk too well to each other, historically particularly, that sort of pride and man up and not wanting to reveal perhaps the vulnerability. So that's something you proactively promoted within weights, is it, to bring more women in? Because I've always felt that's kind of missing because men talk to women more and women ask more questions to draw perhaps the real thoughts out.

11:28Yeah, and it comes down to how you're seen. So, you know, having women on the board, for example, is important. That's an important signal that women are at the top of the business and you can get to the top of the business. Women on the executive committee, which absolutely we have. Women coming into the business and seeing they've got a career path that they can get to the very top, I think is very important. There is no doubt that the conversations with women in the room are different. They are better, they are more rounded, they're deeper. And exactly to the point around mental health, women are much better listeners.

12:06And they will actually tease things out of you. You don't realise quite what you're saying, but it's incredibly helpful. There's almost a catharsisism that comes from talking about these mental health issues. and you're absolutely right mental health in construction is a big big challenge because it is that macho man up and get on with the industry yeah but no you've got to be more sensitive than that these days it's great i think that will really resonate with a lot of people the size of the weights group and the fact that you are talking from that that position of the top leadership you like that that's a priority if you like as a dad to two teenage daughters where you know you want to feel that they can go into anything they want without feeling restricted a barrier i think that's really important you're not just uh ultimately wait scoop you're the chairman of the rfu so you've spread your business interests talk to me about how that came to be your smile yeah well yes i mean an ex-player who played a sort of modest level but loved the game um never involved in rugby administration um but always a passionate supporter of england rugby um and my own club talking i got a call 18 months ago from a headhunter who was doing a search for replacement chair of the RFU.

13:20They said, James, we've got something that might be of interest to you. I said, really, what's that? They said what it is, and I said, you've got to be joking. I mean, A, why me, but B, are you sure? Because the RFU was going through a bit of turmoil at the time. And Paul took me through it and explained why he thought I was up for it. So we went in. I said, OK, I'll go into the process with support of my wife. ended up getting the job. And I have to say, it is incredibly, it's a great privilege, first off, but it's incredibly interesting, equally frustrating. Is that part of the challenge, though?

13:57And the other word is going to use challenging, because I like a challenge. And we are making significant progress, but progress in rugby is glacial. But we are making progress, and I'm really, really pleased with the way things are developing at the RFU. One thing I really discovered very early on was, A, how complex the rugby ecosystem is, and B, how committed the people who work in it are, be they employees or volunteers. And rugby is nothing without volunteers. The volunteers are critical to our game. And it's corralling all that passion and enthusiasm into the same direction. is that I think is a big role for the board to get everybody pulling together because we have got the professional game, the international game, we've got the women's game, you've got junior rugby, you've got community rugby.

14:51Everyone's their slice of the pie. And there's only so much to go around. So the role of the board is to make sure that the resources are pointed in the direction to get the best result against our strategy. And we've got a very clear strategy, which is good. Sure. and we're driving that strategy and performing against it, measure against it and I think that's going to really reap dividends in the future. Will it reap the dividends we want in Australia next year? We'll see. But we've certainly got the players to do it. Yeah, I mean I love rugby and that word passion which you said, it's the heart of it.

15:25What are the biggest challenges that you are ultimately facing and can you share any of the strategy? Well, a strategy I can. It's very simple. It's around four pillars. Play, perform, follow, and fund. So play is about consistently winning England sides. Play is growing the player base. So we've got 120 ,000-odd registered players. We need to grow that. Perform is consistently winning England sides. Follow is grow the committed, passionate followers of the game. And we do that through all of our data management and all that sort of thing, which is incredibly powerful now. and funding is investing significantly in the game over the cycle.

16:06The biggest challenge we have is raising the revenue. So every four years when there's a World Cup year, we have a big hole in our revenues because we missed three big games in the Autumn Internationals. And the Rugby World Cup, even if you win it, doesn't fill that gap. So how do we manage our funding over that cycle? because the community game still needs its money to survive. The professional game still needs its money to survive. So it's making sure that we get the resources in the right place at the right time to continue to deliver against the strategy that we have, which is ultimately a surround performance.

16:49Everybody measures English rugby on how we do on the field. And I have to say, winning and winning, it's great. So my first six months in the job, England were winning. The men were on that unbeaten run. We then had the Rugby World Cup, Women's World Cup. We won that. Oh, this is lovely. Yes. Then came the Six Nations. Yeah. Yes. I actually left the Ireland game. I never felt like that as an England fan before. I was like, gosh, this has gone really wrong. Yeah, that was very disappointing for everybody in England rugby. But interestingly, a wake-up call. it's a bit trite that you learn from the experiences and move on but I think we did and I think we started to see it a little bit in the summer South Africa was a tough game but I think we're moving forward on that and now we've obviously got the Nations Championship coming up in October or November when we've got three big games and then the finals weekend so we'll see how we come out of that but it's exciting I've been enjoying watching the progress of Henry Pollock probably the most talked about But yeah, he makes everyone smile.

17:54He does. I actually had the privilege of spending his 21st birthday in Zuma with Tommy Freeman and Finn Smith. And they're good lads. And just that whole, like, actually, there's a star in the game now. And I wonder how you feel about that because football's often had stars. And then that grows the awareness of the game and so on. I wonder how you're embracing that. I think very much. Personally, I think it's good to have stars like that in the game. It's good to have people who are slightly different. but more importantly people are playing with a smile on their face because they love what they do and you know as i say the old adage if you love what you do you don't work a day in your life goes back to the passion as well absolutely i think that comes through in the young guys they're they've got this enthusiasm and the energy to to have a go um i'm not not saying that you know the old guard don't have the energy and enthusiasm but you know you need young people coming in and challenging the old guard and saying well what about this and you know it's the old adage isn't that there was always in cricket, you know, unless you played on the county circuit for four or five years, there's nowhere you could possibly play for England.

18:58Well, frankly, if you're good enough, you're good enough. There's a ripple of success that comes through this conversation, your own success in the business side of things, the success you want to achieve as the chair of the RFU, England hopefully being successful. Just relating that to you personally, sitting here now, how do you define success? I think first and foremost, family. Obviously, we're a family business. I come from a very strong family background as I touched on earlier. I'm one of five children, six actually. My mother lost one of my younger brothers very young. We're a very close family.

19:33And having, rolling that into my own family, I think is the same. Having a wonderful wife, which I do have, two fantastic sons, one grandson, another one on the way. I don't know if it was a grandson or a granddaughter, but there's another one on the way. it all starts with family um i think everything then that gives you a base for on which to build funny about building that's what i do um and you can build anything if you've got a strong base um and you will find your success and i mean i'm lucky i found my success in our family business and now hopefully in england rugby and other things i've done um so yeah it's it's success is I think it's an internal thing how you feel about what you've done as well as how others perceive what success is I mean it's successful about money and fame, no it's important to some people actually success to me is the legacy that perhaps I'm putting in place for my sons and my grandchildren through what I'm doing and that creates them, hopefully makes them try and be better people themselves for their lives.

20:45And it perpetuates. That's beautiful. Very grounded and it's not a destination. It's not a specific thing. Family, first and foremost. I love the fact that you love building. Sitting here now, let alone the young kid that went into that and of course the family business. Building can be tough. I mean, I've got my own personal experience of agreeing an appraisal for a project and then going through, particularly in recent times, when the Suez Canal was blocked and suddenly the supplies and you'd agreed a steel price in your appraisal. When you come to order it, it's dramatically more. And all the stress and strains that can go with construction, how do you manage that as an individual and also as a business that's juggling all these different cash flows?

21:28The trite word is what we do and it's what we've always done. But actually, it's communication. Yes, you agree on appraisal, But I think if you have the good, solid relationships with your customers, you can have the conversations about this has happened. And, you know, people generally, if you talk to people and try and solve the problem together, people will be on side with that. What people don't like is, you know, scurrying away in the background and trying to sort things out. And, you know, and then a nasty surprise comes out. That doesn't work. I mean, take people on the journey with you.

22:03keep talking about it and try and find a way through because everybody wants to win. If there's a loser in the team, then nobody wins. So you've actually got to get everybody together to agree, okay, the goalposts have moved for whatever reason. What can we do to make it better for the client point of view, make it better from our point of view, make it better from the consultant's point of view, the supply chain point of view? How can we make it less painful for everybody rather than saying, well, we're all right and we've one. That's great to share. You've got four generations of, you know, 100 years plus of being in business.

22:37Is there a moment that really tested weights? Many and various. COVID swings to mind because, you know, connecting services and supplies, the self-employed kind of chippies and sparkies, bricklayers and so on were not protected in any furlough scheme and so on. And there must have been all sorts of stressful conversations there. There were. Over 128 years, we've had many challenges. A couple of world wars, Spanish flu, recessions, not quite pestilence, but COVID was a heck of a shock because it was the overnight shutdown. We worked really hard on that. Our CEO at the time was absolutely brilliant because he absolutely rolled his sleeves up and got stuck in to grinding out the detail on a day-to-day basis which is not necessarily a CEO job but he got down into the weeds and really really held them together and we managed our way through it we were lucky as a construction sector because we were one of the the few industries that was allowed to keep building but our productivity was down to about 35 percent of what it had been and it was a very challenging period the biggest challenge actually was then gearing up again afterwards when things started to release because we lost a lot of people in the industry.

23:56I wondered that. Yeah. A lot of the European Labour, who were very, very good, they thought, well, I don't want to be locked down in England. There's a skills shortage, isn't there? So they went home and they couldn't come back because of Brexit. Did you have to invest into training then to bring new people in? We've always invested in training. But training, you've got to invest for the long term. So one of the things I was, I used to be chairman of the construction industry training board, which put allocated the training levy into development people obviously we have the apprentice levy as well now so we've got we've got quite a lot of money as a as business that is steered towards training but training is not an overnight success you've got to be delivering on a consistent basis to create the long-term pipeline of talent people who have the skills it takes time to develop those skills a five-year apprenticeship or three-year apprenticeship doesn't give you the skills to go out and do some of the complex stuff that he's doing.

24:54You actually learn that over the next 5-10 years before you become a master craftsman for want of a better description. So it's not an overnight thing. It takes time. And we are starting now to see perhaps some future pipeline coming through. But the challenge we've had is people don't necessarily want to wear construction because it's hard work. It's hard graft. It's outside in the muck and bullets. I think the key thing to get across to people is construction is not all about muck and bullets because there's so much more stuff that goes on in construction. Off-site, be it accountancy, be it finance, be it IT, be it design.

25:34There's so much stuff that doesn't mean you've got to roll your sleeves up and get down in the trenches. But you still need to do that. AI has yet to be able to build a building. So for anybody who's out there thinking, what career I should have, I would say building is probably one that's resilient to AI. We can make it better through AI. but it's not going to replace boots on the ground. So we still need people that we still need to train and develop people to move forward into construction. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more.

26:11Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Low energy, unfocused, foggy. You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going.

26:47Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade, hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist. Powerful share of that. And I was going to ask you how AI in any way is affecting your business. And a key thing that also dovetails that is the apprenticeship side of things. With the crisis in young men right now, highlighted by the Gareth Southgate-Dimbleby talk and the kind of the manosphere that's happened, that lack of purpose, that lack of agency in young men that actually you can get a lot of fulfillment from, you know, a good body from the actual physical construction side of things and camaraderie.

27:25There's so much that's positive about that, but it feels like it's not explained like you just did. So we don't see it as an option. And there's so much now on social media about trying to be an influencer or, you know, in any way working in tech. But that construction industry gives a lot of people a brilliant career. and that master craftsman must be so satisfying you achieve that status you can earn good money out of it as well you can absolutely i've always been a great believer in in an apprenticeship route because you earn and learn um rather than racking up student debt now don't get me wrong i think university education is very important but it's not for everybody and i think the maybe perhaps too much emphasis on university education has been to the detriment of industries like construction earn and learn build a skill base build well if you've got those skills you can actually build up your own business in the world of time.

28:13I really like that, earn and learn. And there's a quarter of a trillion of student debt out there with no guarantee of more than ever before. Again, related to AI taking a lot of those roles that might have been a given just five, ten years ago. So I'm really glad we've championed that entrepreneurship. The sort of the apprentice side of things, if you like. Legacy. So the business itself had a legacy you came into. How would you like to leave your legacy? I'd like it to be he left things better than they were. He's created opportunity. He's given people confidence they can do what they want to do.

28:56From my family's point of view, the legacy of my sons and grandchildren in the future, being able to continue having successful and fulfilling lives, not necessarily in the business. Well, I hope they are. But the most important thing is actually people, family members, having the ability to live a fulfilled, happy, successful life. That's a great legacy. Is there any pressure without even meaning to or not on your sons to come into the business in that sort of succession element? Well, one of them is in. Yes, you mentioned that. But did you in any way shape or guide or did you actively encourage to have that worldly kind of and then see if they came back in?

29:43Well, I wonder if they were marinated in it like I was. Passion is infectious, right? The answer is almost certainly, because I remember talking to, particularly my younger son. He was always interested in, so what do you do today, Dad? And he wanted to know, well, how do you make money? I've got a farm and we were talking about that when I first started farming he says how do you make money that was before Clarkson came on I brought him straight to Clarkson and said well you can't but it's a passion and you love it but actually you go through if you buy a cow for this and you feed it with this and you put these costs on it at the end of the day you sell it for that and you sell it for less than it's cost you to get there then you lose money you can sell it for more then you make money So he was always interested in business.

30:31And I think number one son, Piers, not my favourite son, my eldest son. People say, what do you mean number one son? No, my eldest son. Sure. He is very keen on the business, but he's taken a different route because when he left university, he followed his heart and moved out to the States to his childhood sweetheart, who he's now married to. And he works in property out there for CBR, and he's doing incredibly well. I think his ambition is to come back in the fullness of time. Fully transferable skills there, working in property CBRE. Yeah. I guess that's not lost on you. No. So I suppose that I didn't put any pressure on them at all, but I was always hopeful, and I expect my father was with me, that I'd come into the industry.