Damon Hill | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:12Daemon, thank you for joining me. Pleasure, John. I'm intrigued to see what you're going to ask me. I've been a fan of you all my life. You know, I'm 47, so I watched you racing, followed your career. And of course, you've been on Sky Sports F1 until literally, you know, end of last year. So like, I'm genuinely interested in this conversation. But tell me in your own words, who is Damon Hill? There's Damon Hill, who a perception you have and a perception that maybe people out there have. And then there's the person I know and the person that my family knows. And they'll all have their own take on who you are.

0:48And the only way you can relate to people is on the basis of their knowledge of you. I know about myself that I am a certain way in certain situations. And sometimes I'm happy with that. Sometimes I'm not happy with that. But I also recognize I have limitations. So I would like to be a much better guitarist. I know I can't. It's too late. You know, if I've started when I was three or something like that. But it's a passion. But it's a passion. So there are things that you realize you can't do. So if you're young and you're going into a situation, you probably, there's probably lots of situations where you're not sure of yourself, but you'll find certain situations where you're more comfortable and you're better at.

1:34And that is sort of your guide is to follow those directions because it will be an easier path. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try the things you're uncomfortable with. and then you build you do this thing called growing as a person where you're more capable in a variety of situations and that should be a goal i think for for people i'm not lecturing hopefully no no it's like an evolution actually what you're describing there and and the damon hill that i have only watched on if you like the tv screens as a formal one racing driver winning the 1996 World Championship, fighting Michael Schumacher many times through your career, but also fighting probably all sorts of thoughts, demons in your head, even into sort of battles within your own team, to then being, you know, 12 years, I think you said, as a Sky Sports F1 presenter, pundit, you know, that's the perception that I've got, but actually you've just ultimately filmed a documentary and so that's going to give so much more of an insight into yeah damon and and the the journey you went on um the life that you've led but then ultimately becoming to this conversation what's coming next and that's the bit i'm really interested in yeah what made you make the documentary what was the right why was it the right timing why did you choose the production companies with simon and bick so um simon lays me is the lead presenter on on sky along with Natalie Pinkham, who they basically, the people who link the guests like me to the audience and also get us through the ads and stuff like that.

3:14So I worked with Simon, got to know Simon. I had no experience of media and television and all this stuff before I went to Sky. I mean, apart from being the subject of an interview. Which I never felt you particularly liked. No, I did. It was quite an interesting transition to then join them, if you like. Yeah, I found it irritating would be the wrong way to put it, but I just felt like, you know, I don't like being put in the position where I'm being inquisition, you know, where I'm being the subject of an inquisition. And then you join them and you're doing it. Yeah, but that's why I also wasn't comfortable about being the inquisitor as well.

3:48So I like, I prefer this kind of free-flowing conversation where you've got a chance to explain what you really mean rather than the short punchy thing. But anyway, getting back to Simon. So I worked with Simon and he was looking at ways to expand his experience of sport. And so he went and produced some documentaries on other sporting people and put together so became a producer. And one of the early plans was to do one on myself. And then it kind of took ages to get going and put the pieces together. But we finally got there. And I must say, anybody who sits down and watches a documentary and it's, even if it's an hour and a half long, you have no idea the amount of work that goes into putting that together.

4:36Archives of... Unbelievable. Different ways you could do it as well. That's a really interesting perspective. It's through, you know, literally through your eyes, right? There's no other contributors. It's a very... Well, I want to make it clear. I did not direct this. I wasn't, it wasn't, it never got any instruction. I totally trusted... Trust is the word. I guess you built that relationship up through years of working and being very closely together, lots of traveling together, lots of time together. Yeah, so there's an element of knowing someone and knowing that I think that Simon wanted to give it the best shot, but he also then had to trust because he handed over to Alex Holmes, who was the director of the film, who had his own vision.

5:20So I think letting go of control something to do with you is extremely scary and a lot of people want to spend a lot of their time if they're famous controlling every aspect of their personality i'm actually interested to know i'm interested to know what other people are making me given that they've got free reign to go through my home videos um archive stuff of me in the sport and so what what conclusion would they come to and that's what i think we've got this film documentary is that it's a it's an aspect of me um is it completely me no it doesn't show me ranting on the golf course when i've done some stupid shot it doesn't show me frustrated and you know annoyed about everything to do with the world at the moment it doesn't show that but it's it's um it's got a it definitely got a ring truth to it.

6:11You know, it's got the kernel of me in that. And what I was doing during my career, I wasn't just trying to win a race. I was trying to, like everybody, build a home, create security for the family, all those other things that hopefully other people will relate to. Yeah. Whilst being away from your family on weeks at a time and a high, high, high intensity for focus and I guess competition if you like so that takes all your focus there's nothing else you can think about when you're behind the wheel of an f1 car you know other than just literally you know what's in front of you and then the good drivers are able to think well other things coming from a world champion and I think that that's that's a key thing there it's like how how important and how how much of a motivation was it for you when you came into Formula One with your father being a previous world champion, the history that goes with that, the pressure, and the fact that your father tragically was killed early in his life and in terms of your years, to then want to kind of almost have that hill legacy, I need to, I want to win.

7:24How much did that drive you? Well, I think that's partly an inquiry in the film, is to what is the motivation? What would make you want to push yourself through these trials and challenges? What was the influence of having a father that then tragically died, as you said, so he wasn't around to help me? And the issues to do with what is that a father-son relationship is, you know, stuff like that. You've got no guidance. And there are times, and this is probably a reflection of how we had this chat when I first was talking to you then outside watching you at times um on the screen and then having had the pleasure to watch the documentary myself there's a there's an element of you being alone you know and we know uh from the documentary let alone as history you know says it you were very alone in that Williams team and you still managed to win the world championship I'd love to know what was going on in your head and how you how you dealt with the fact that there were so many people against you.

8:26You didn't have a father to talk to. Yes, Georgie, the family were there, but sometimes you were on your own. Did you, you know, that mental strength is huge and you won the world championship in 1990. Part of the test with something like sport is that you are going to be put to the test. You're going to be challenged. It's a bit like being a politician. We, they are, they're supposed to be public servants and they're supposed to be challenged on everything and increased on everything. And one thing that kind of slightly surprised me was that with the British press at the time was that they weren't supportive.

8:59And I thought that was their job, but of course their job is to write a story. And so one of the things that I could have had explained to me if I'd had someone like my dad around is that that's not how it is, son. That's not how the world really works. So I had to learn on the hoof as I went and I sought advice from various people and they did those people did help so but I wasn't really ready for it and it was also quite quite late on in my career so it was you think you know you think you can you'd be able to do that but once you're in that situation and you haven't got time to do the research you know it's happening all around you straight away And I fell into a few potholes, a few traps, man traps along the way.

9:46But I had to learn from that experience. I think that's a good example of how, you know, a painful experience is a good opportunity. Resilience, which makes you a better version of yourself. But in the time, especially when you're learning on the hoof and in full view, you know, huge media coverage and high, high profile, because you're always ultimately at the sharp end and fighting for a championship, you know. So one example I give is that when I was driving, I thought the journalists and the TV coverage and the fans and everyone could see right through me. You felt transparent. I'm very exposed.

10:18I felt transparent. And the questions you get from journalists and so forth, I just thought, they seem to know. I thought I was getting paranoid. I thought I was actually over-concerned about their insights and stuff. But you read a small line about yourself and how you behaved and everything by a piece in the newspaper. Over-analyze it. And you kind of go, they spotted me. Do you know what I mean? They spotted something that I also feel uncomfortable about. And I felt very exposed. And I thought that I was exaggerating. And then I started working with Sky. And I realized they really are analyzing everything you say and everything.

10:55There's a proper science to it. There's a science to it. And there's what travels he got on and how is he walking and all these kind of really intrusive observations. You know, what did he really mean by that? Did you notice that when he said that he stopped himself and then he changed his mind and then covered up? You know, so that degree of scrutiny is real. And I, after a few years of doing it with Sky or maybe the first year, I realized if I'd had this training before I went in, I would have been much better prepared for my career. And I would say advise anybody going into any public activity to understand the level of scrutiny you will be under, because you need to have a wall not to hide behind, but to protect you from literally the feeling that you're being stripped apart.

11:44And every little tiny molecule is being analysed because it's extremely unsettling. They're trying to find a weakness as well. Of course, you're in a competitive environment. And so I'm interested to know your thoughts on fast-forwarding to the 2025 season, if you like, where there are drivers all competing against each other. But there's so much that's out there with Drive to Survive and social media. They're showing their emotions. They're giving information away to competitors. Whereas in this instance, you probably realized you were being everything extracted from you. You're feeling vulnerable.

12:19So you close off. So that puts it all in here, which we know now with the whole mental health journey, that's the voices in your head and how you came through that. Because that could have crushed many, many people. But not only did you come through that and be successful winning multiple races and, again, the 96th championship, but you sort of never let it get you down. Have I got that right? Or did you have moments where you went into the trail and you put your head in your hands and you let it out? Or did you just keep it? No, no, completely. I mean, you have to, when you've got a lot of attention on yourself, and then you have to walk into the paddock knowing that the moment you go through get out of your car in the car park you're going to have cameras people following you and watching everything you do and say is um is a trial so you you you do have to have a strategy for dealing with that um and in those days we didn't have social media now there's there's pros and cons of social media one of the pros is if you have nowadays, if you have a point you want to make, you can put it out there in social media.

13:19You can control that narrative a little bit. You have a way of responding. So in those days, I didn't have, you know, unless I wanted to do an interview, the only way would be to do an interview with a journalist, a written, you know, piece. That was literally the only vehicle, wasn't it? That was the only vehicle. And then it was mediated by the editor and the journalist. And so what you, you're constantly frustrated because you're going, they've not got the what i really meant across so now you've got that that little bit of a string to your bow as a as a personality so lewis for example will um will manage his communications um and can do so on his on his own so that you they are learned they're adept now they have to be because they have to be adept the power they have to communicate is huge and possibly you know even greater the drivers have even greater power now through that medium than than anyone else in the sport it feels like it yeah so they've now got a huge responsibility because they have to think carefully before they they open their mouths on social that makes you think of some of the stuff that's in the press right now for context filming very much the end of january 25 of a season coming up and reflecting on 24 a lot of radio messages particularly from Max Verstappen where he's openly swearing and criticizing the team and everything.

14:43Yeah. Is there a bit of a lack of respect that's crept into the sport with sort of decisions being made that are more entertainment based? Yes. Well, you mentioned Netflix. I mean, Netflix is a drama and it's revealing as well because you said it shows behind the scenes and I think that is valuable because it showed someone going home to their apartment after a bad weekend. That never happened, right? There was no other level of intrigue, which I think was quite nice. We didn't know what Damon was doing outside of a race weekend. Yeah. I think it's, well, there would have been stuff that was done, but it would be a very staid or kind of formulated thing that would refer up a sponsor or something like that.

15:23You didn't have the control of it. Anyway, Netflix will follow you to your local restaurant or getting into, getting up to whatever you get up to away from the track, which I think humanizes and brings the fans closer to those people and understanding them as people. This Netflix thing is - Entertainment. Yeah. It's the communications you were talking about. Well, there is a question as to whether or not people are doing stuff because they know it's going to be broadcast. That's what I'm thinking. Which is not into the social media. Things going viral for all the wrong reasons, but it's clickbait.

15:58I mean, Fernando, definitely. Fernando's incredibly, if you know Fernando, he makes me laugh because he's so smart and he knows that if he says something during a race, it's going to have an effect. Sometimes he did it unwisely and it damaged his career, but he will come up with things because he knows it's being broadcast. It's not just going to his engineer. Whether Max's attacks to his race engineer is something that he'd be proud of after the race, I'm not sure. And in future years as well, because he's still so young. His drive is on the grid now. I mean, you said yourself, he came into the sport relatively late, relatively in context of some of the kids coming through.

16:3616, 17? And so actually, you can be quite forgiving. He was 16. I was 32. Yeah. Double, literally. It's like, you know, and so there is an element. And because without going off track, you know, the people that are giving him the advice, namely his father as well, equally aggressive, equally kind of, you know, so obviously it's like, but he's performing. Yeah. He's been winning for the minute he got in the car. Well, he also said that he's, you know, he understands his son is honest, he's direct, he's being himself, he's authentic, and he's proud of him. And I totally get that. And I would be proud of my son too, what he's done.

17:11And Matt perhaps wouldn't be proud of him talking to anybody, and sometimes in the way he does, but you can excuse that and say it's in the heat of the moment, it's a race. But anyway, we're getting slightly off the track, but what we're touching on is the is the scrutiny that even you can win four world titles you can win nine world titles you are not going to be immune to criticism it's not a it's not an issue of it doesn't silence all the critics as far as your driving goes probably that's that's enough you know that's all we have but we're not only interested in how many races you win we're just not that's human nature, not we are social creatures.

17:50We are interested in you. There's a passage in the Iliad where Odysseus goes and he lands on an island, and I can't remember which the name of the people are, but he lands there and they have to find out who he is because in those days you'd be a stranger. They need to know where do you come from? Are you just a forward emissary of something greater that we need to be concerned about? They need to know everything about you and your story of yourself is taken very seriously. And they will put it to the test. They want to know whether what you say about yourself is borne out in actual fact. They'll ask you to perform certain tasks to see if you're, you know, if you go in somewhere and say, oh, I can juggle.

18:31And they go, okay, then show us, you know. So the point is that the Netflix thing has opened up the human side of the sport, as is all reality TV in a way. You know, it's made people interested in the behind the scenes. The problem with it is that if you show the workings, it's like being a magician. You know, you don't want to know how the trick is done in some way. The illusion itself is compelling. Do we really want to know who Bob Dylan is? What it has done is it's got my wife watching it and countless people that weren't, which is exactly what Liberty Media and F1 wanted, right? So it's like, whereas I guess purist fan of the sport and countless people around me, you know, we're not necessarily watching it, which is quite an interesting dynamic.

19:16It's a little bit like, what is the value of a celebrity? Some people are famous for just being famous. We want to retain, we want the sport to have the essence of it to be authentic, an authentic test of skill and prowess. And if it is now rewarding those who are able to keep the viewer watching all their other stunts that they get up to, and they get signed up by a team because they've got a massive media following, because they're entertainers, I'm uneasy about that. Because I think whilst I want characters in the sport, you know, the sport is founded on extraordinary individuals, whether or not they're able to hold an audience.

20:06I mean, if you were to put Jim Clark in this context, you wouldn't get much out of Jim Clark. Maybe he'd warm up. Maybe he'd change. Maybe he'd be a different person. Yeah, you always can't compare. He wouldn't know what the earth a smartphone was and so on. Yeah. Yeah. Alphangio is famous for not speaking English. So you hardly got anything out of Alphangio, but he's regarded as being the greatest of all time. And we have these conversations all the time of who is the greatest. And there's a really good example of why you can't even compare. But I'm going to completely contradict myself now and ask you, who is the name that comes as the goat, the greatest of all time, when you ask that question?

20:43Well, I think there's a bunch of them. And I'm not evading the question. I just don't think you can compare ear to ear. I agree with that. I think, you know, you could break it down into decades and you could say, you know, maybe it was Fangio in the 50s and Clark in the 60s and maybe Stuart in the 70s and 80s. It's on a struggle now, you know. But, yeah, I mean, who would it be? Villeneuve, someone would say Villeneuve, you know. But I would say possibly, you know, 80s, 90s, Senna, maybe. So there we go. I mean, there's a bunch of people that are the usual suspects. I love the fact that you said Villeneuve.

21:29Right. Love it. I was brought up around stories of him being sideways and when he trashed his car and insisted on driving it back to the pits and then kind of went out at the crew, like, come on. And they're like, literally hasn't got any wheels left. If you come back a little bit slower. Get bang out. Yeah. So this is where you get into the enjoyment of the sport. That's the emotional human side of it as well, right? Some people love that. Some people love the thinking driver like the louder. And the prost, I guess, yeah. With coming back to you and almost that kind of, right back in that moment, trying to win the World Championship, winning the World Championship in 96, and the documentary, did you enjoy your time in Formula One?

22:07that there was, you would have been so, so ambitious and driven to get there, all the decisions and all the things that happened for you to get there. And then it's almost like, you know, did you actually then come out of it only to kind of almost realize what you achieved? Because it's so intense. I mean, there must have been so much pressure on you and you came in so quickly, you know, did you actually have a moment where you went, I'm enjoying this and just that moment? Loads of them. Good. Loads of them. I mean, you know, I would say most fulfilling and enriched time of my life was probably in Formula One.

22:41Very difficult to compare a life outside or find a life that is comparable. Getting there was always, I was blinkers on. And my friends will confirm that, you know, I was, you know, I was going to Formula One. I was going to get there somehow. And so when I stopped, it was, I liken it to being, you know, those people that you see at the circus, we're fired out of a cannon. You're shooting, shooting down a barrel and then suddenly you're flying through the air and you're going, whoa, where am I going now? What was that like then? Because that's a whole identity thing. And you, you reached the pinnacle as well.

23:15So not only did you have ambitions and aspirations to get in the Formula One, but you'd have always had eyes on the championship. and you achieved it. And then when you ultimately retired, identity crisis, I know that that was a really tough time for you mentally. What got you through that? Well, partly I brought it on myself consciously because I saw people going out of Formula 1 and straight in some other massive project that kind of tied them up and kept them involved. And I just thought, you know, it's been such an intense few decades that I really want time to, I want to know what happens to you when you don't have anything to do, when you don't have a deck full of stuff you've got to take care of.

23:57I had money in the bank, I could, you know, the kids were grown up, well not grown up, were growing up, they were quite young, so I could spend time at home, do random stuff. And for me, it was a very valuable window of nothing happening where I could explore. Complete opposite to previous though as well. Yeah. Extreme. But you know, that comes back to this question of identity, who you are. Imagine you would say to someone, okay, I'm going to give you a billion pounds. You can do whatever you like. You do not need to do anything. So now you have to spend it, but you can do whatever you like. If you're given every opportunity, it's more difficult in some ways than having no opportunity.

24:43I mean, Napoleon, I think there's a Napoleon quote, which is to have a choice is a luxury. So it creates its own problems. And people agonize over which route to take when they get, oh, where should I go on the other way? What job should I go for? And, you know, that is a real challenge because actually you shouldn't be looking at what's out there. you should be trying to find out what's inside that's telling you what you what gives you fulfillment and then it raises a whole lot of other questions which could be to do with well if maybe it's not what you want maybe it's what other people want and if you can be unselfish way of looking at it yeah that's that's a reflection leads to directions that may have not been obvious to you before no and in the moment fight or flight probably you go back to Formula One and so on, and the mindset and just, and the dedication to achieve a goal.

25:37When you've, when you've ultimately come out of that and fast forwarding right to now, what do you do to kind of prioritize your mental and physical health? When you were training physically as a Formula One driver, you have a goal to be as fit as you can to beat your rivals and, but you still look fit. You look content in your eyes. So there's, there's, I'd love to know what you're actually doing to look after yourself and what that kind of purpose is now. I think it helps having a discipline. I think it helps having something which means that you, I'm sorry, I, I need to put on the back burner, whatever it is.

26:10So you're prioritizing, you're in effect in not in denial, but you're in effect not dealing with those issues because you're, you're creating a thing that overrides all the other considerations. So let's say you have a problem in a relationship. that can't that can't interrupt my my direction sorry but that is now not in it that's not a problem because i've got to get to a racetrack and win a grand prix so you're not working on things that perhaps need more attention because you can defer everything and so then of course you take away the the imperative which is an event something you've agreed to do you've got contract you, I will turn up.

26:51You can't not turn up. And anyway, you want to turn up. But then you suddenly go, okay, well, now I can't ignore the other things that needed attention, didn't want to be distracted by. That's focus, right? It's focus, but is it healthy? Yeah. You know, I mean, a lot of people may go, oh, I can't think about that. Now I've got to go to work or I've got to, you know, but all the time it's nagging away in the background. and undermining their determination. It's undermining people's fully invested nature of what they do. Because if you ask an artist, why do they do what they do? It's because they don't know any different.

27:35They're creative as well. They're stimulated by creative. Don't ask me why I'm playing with clay. I just feel like I want to play with clay or or bright music or something. And then the journey goes, so here's an interesting one for you because you clearly had a lot of success throughout your life. And that, the answer to this question would have completely been different at different phases. But right here, right now, how do you define success? What does it look like for you? I think someone asked me this not so long ago, and the answer I gave was that I defined success by my own criteria, not by other people's criteria.

28:14And I found that an issue the whole way through my career, is that people would be pushing me, egging me to do what they wanted me to do. And, you know, I think Lewis is like that. I think Lewis is quite content to set his own ambitions, his own agenda, and to hell with everyone else's expectations and desires. Because we do that, we tend to want to own someone's success. And we go, and imagine that if we were that person, we'd be doing this. So for example, I mean, I don't want to be a sports boy, but I never really turned up in flash cars and did all that stuff. I know that people want, they want you to do, they want you to live the dream.

29:01They want you to have you know um countless girlfriends or whatever it is they they'd they'd love to do that themselves probably but you know if it's not it's not you then so not being true to yourself yeah i mean no i like i like i like your answer and what what's next for you so you've um you know you've sort of hung the microphone up the formula one careers behind you and you still not kept you in formula one are you going to still have an involvement are you going to enjoy that kind of distance and break? Have you got eyes on other things? No, I think you can't escape Formula One. It's everywhere you go, everywhere I go.

29:37It seems to follow me around. I can't seem to escape it. I'm fascinated by that. Do you embrace that then? Yeah, I think so. I think it was a time when I wanted to get away from it. I'd had enough of it. And I didn't like what I was seeing on the track and in the politics of the sport. I don't think that'll ever change. I think it's always going to be controversy, which is either annoying, frustrating, or entertaining. So that's... All at the same time. I think, you know, I'm very lucky that I've... My heart has been around my life since I was born. I mean, you know, Sterling Moss came to my christening, you know, so it's like there is no escape from this thing.