David Gandy | Fatherhood, Identity & Modern Masculinity | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:00Define masculinity. Do you think you're masculine? You have this aura of masculinity. What is it? I always thought this was a strange thing. Why is everyone trying to pigeonhole masculinity or ask me to define it? Which I probably couldn't do anyway. Tell me, who is David Gandy? It depends who you ask. Becoming a male supermodel. I believe the only male supermodel. No, there are a few, but I've... Well, let's keep it. That's how normal people have said I believe. And that's the perception. And we orchestrated a meeting with Dolce. Tandy also for me to be at a birthday party where they were and she faked a airline ticket that I had to pick up just to get me at this party.

0:34Two weeks later, three weeks later I was booked for the campaign. Heidi, my agent called me up and said, right we're negotiating on something big with Dolce. It feels like in more recent years you've been able to bring a lot more of the things that are important to you and I think I'll bring the CSJ, the Centre for Social Justice into the conversation quite early. It's how we've connected. There was a big lever to switch off social media around the world I wouldn't even hesitate within 10 seconds to go and pull that Levo over there and pull off. I think you'd see a massive difference in everything.

1:02I've said it for many many years and be a pioneer, children should not be on social media. They do need some authority, I think they do need probably role models. I was taught how to be, I always say, you know, forget masculinity which is about being a gentleman.

1:25David Gandy, welcome. Thank you. This is a conversation I've been really looking forward to. Good, me too. Tell me, who is David Gandy? Oh, wow, that's a big question. It depends who you ask. The weird thing is, and not to sound too big-headed, but there's not two sides, but the way I change something, the way I've pretty differentiated in the modelling industry is building a brand. So there's a David Gandy brand. And so often I talk about this, talk about the day beginning of third person, which makes me sound like a proper twat sometimes, but I kind of have to because I'm thinking of the brand.

2:03And then there's me, there's the day beginning of the person who is just predominantly dad at the moment. That's what it's been for seven years. And yeah, just I don't think my children even particularly know what I do. I mean, you know, if they ask them, they say, I think daddy makes clothes. and they see me on television and billboards and stuff like this but I but I haven't really incorporated them within that to that to them like yeah dad's on tv this morning that's just quite normal but they still yeah I'm just the one fun dad I love that fun dad or straight doesn't want to be that has there been a moment there where your kids have spotted you in someone you've actually had to explain it then because there's there's quite a lot of public facing images if you like oh yeah I mean yeah I mean they go daddy is that you and I go Yeah, and they've come to a couple of photo shoots, so they understand what I do.

2:54Yes. To a very small extent, and those shoots are all my friends, they're all my team. It's just a really lovely, fun day for them, really. They're not really experiencing much else. They don't see the day-to-day. But, yeah, I suppose it becomes a norm when you don't know when someone else isn't on television. They just go, oh, that is on television this morning, or we're going to watch it. Or they open a magazine, and there I am. They go, yeah, that's fine. yeah it's just that's what he does there's no any difference about it they don't they don't probably quite understand the how other people perceive it in some ways or uh being in the public eye or fame or any of those things they you know kept it kept them quite quite away from it they're still young i mean matilda's just seven at the moment so she's beginning to understand yeah we've both got they've got two daughters having that chat offline weren't we and i'm a little bit ahead of you I've got the hormones raging and I've got all the stuff you're going to be coming into and you haven't had to navigate 14 and 16 year girls right now the personal brand bit with kind of David Gandy front-facing public and then the fun dad but how have they entwined perhaps more recently I would imagine earlier in your career it was very much a professional portrayal perception it feels like in more recent years you've been able to bring a lot more of the things that are important to you and I think I'll bring the CSJ the Center for Social Justice into the conversation quite early it's how we've connected yeah where you're able to talk about things that matter to you that you want to anyway raise awareness for and so on but at the same time actually that that's come into your work as well if you like I mean yes I mean though the CSJ I mean first of all even before the girls came along I was talking about men's suicide and I'm seeing a massive problem with young men.

4:43When I say young men, the statistic is still going up. It's the biggest killer. It used to be men of under 40, then it was 45 now. I understand it's the biggest killer of men under 50. I mean, it's something I've always wanted to talk about. And no one was, right? There was no one from a role model point of view, there was no one. No, I mean, it was around the same time that Movember started as well. I still don't really think there was a time that was getting a bit of traction. It all seems to be a little bit forgotten about again still. I don't think there was a solution to it. I think that there is some solutions to help.

5:20And I think that's going to become even worse because we do have a problem with men's identity. You know, when I'm doing interviews now, the reason I started working with the CSJ about the Lost Boys, this generation 16 to 24 year olds, is because everyone was asking me suddenly to define masculinity. I've been doing interviews for 20 years, and suddenly in the last five years, I've been like, define masculinity. Do you think you're masculine? You have this aura of masculinity, what is it? I always thought this was a strange thing. Why is everyone trying to pigeonhole masculinity or ask me to define it, which I probably couldn't do anyway?

5:59so it was a it's an interesting conversation to have I think it opens up a lot of conversations that people should be having with young men and their daughters you know I think I growing up with a different role model with my father my grandfather we are the first I'm pretty talk about we are with up through the first generation that have to balance that work, probably main breadwinner, and also much more involving our children's lives. Now I would say my father wasn't, but there wasn't the cooking, looking after children, school time, shopping, everything else. I think we are the first generation of fathers to have to engulf that much more and combine it.

6:48So things are changing. Those roles are different. And yeah, and then bringing sort of my daughters into role in one where we, it was sort of funny that when everyone's buying presents my daughter, you know, they bought books and it was about the brilliant women in the world and how women have changed the world and everything and which I'm absolutely all for to say what you can change but it wasn't a book about the people who have changed the world it was about the women who have changed the world and I have to explain to them as well about the men that have changed the world and the men making a difference and it's people, not women and men.

7:26We can all be great. We're still trying to break this journey up into, we're all trying to be equality, but we're still trying to pigeonhole those two sort of where people are in that. And the same with my partner as well, with Steph. It's like, were you staying at home or is she going to work or is she staying at work or you going to work? I said, no, no, my wife's a barrister. I have all my work I have to do and work as a partnership there's no set roles at all so yeah that partnership's key and I think you mentioned role model you mentioned your grandfather and the fact that we are both present dads one of the most damning and concerning stats and kind of data that came out of the Lost Boys report for me was the lack of kids growing up without a father if you'd like and a father figure that becomes a role model do you think that because that feels to me where this crisis of identity and then the fact that these young lads are looking for role models that they find on social media and of course somehow they managed to find potentially the wrong ones is that where the real crisis lies not the csj will say is that i'm um i do think your mom and dad and male role models are important i think female my role model within fashion industry is a woman called Tandy Anderson it's not a man whatsoever because when I came into the industry and did what we did there wasn't a pioneer man who had done hopefully what I mean I hadn't done what I had done before wanted to achieve head of my agency Tandy Anderson was the one who believed in me was the one I when I came out in 2005 came out to say that I don't want to keep doing this commercial work in this catalog work it's not what I'm in the industry to do and everyone thought I was mad by saying that but she said absolutely this is what we've got to do I believe in like I believe but you have to listen to me and I listen to her and still listen to her to this day a beautiful relationship proper mentor and proper mentor absolutely and if there's you know towards this day I'm making a decision of course I speak to my my parents my dad you know as you get all those decisions has been made on your own but if If it's sometimes something to do with fashion, I'm not quite sure.

9:46I need a bit of reassurance or just a voice called handy. That's my person. I think women have just as big a role as men. We're talking about the men have to be role models. They have to be more present. Our fathers weren't. We are more present. So why are we seeing this shift? Yes. that doesn't quite correlate, if you understand my understanding, with it before. I think this idea of soft parenting is a massive problem. I don't quite believe in the soft parenting idea.

10:23I am probably a strict father in some ways, but I think there's a fine balance. I also don't think one child can be brought up the same way as another one. but boys and the way you bring up boys and girls is different and I think boys do need some authority I think they do need probably role models I was taught how to be I always say you know forget masculinity and the way you're brought up about masculinity or toxic masculinity we're using too much is about being a gentleman that's why I've kind of been brought up and I think that's something that's been lost as well but yeah the story I was given and you have to followed me with this one because it sounds a bit weird, but when we were once in Botswana, they were telling us about the elephant herds and one part they were doing very, very well.

11:13Good elephants, they were being bred and all well in the head, like the bull elephants and then other parts they didn't. So they took a lot of the bull elephants to go and breed in this other area to build up a successful herd of elephants and over on this side. And what they forgot was they left the, which we call them, the teenage boy adolescent that were all coming into, you know, not being able to sort of mate yet, but so had lots of hormones, angry, and they were destroying farms. They were killing other animals, rhinos, farmers, other elephants, because they didn't have anyone to put them in their place to teach them no matriarch they brought back the bull elephants and everything was normal again so you it was you know and they was and that's I think a good analogy for for where we are here that it still needs some guidance yes and being a little bit tougher a little bit arcana with boys and I think they appreciate that I know I certainly did I certainly didn't like some of my teachers at school my rugby teacher and they were hard you know they were strict but going back now who you know who was the guys that we had a beer with at the end of a levels it was those two teachers because we saw another side of them and you realized actually how um you know important they were in in our lives brings that almost the kind of the woke element if you like which the older generation really struggled with what they see is a generation coming through now where there's an expectancy and I think we again we talked about this briefly before we started filming where someone might turn to you and say how do I get to where you are and it's rough it's hard work it's not always enjoyable and I don't want to keep referencing social media but there is an element of portrayal if you like of success where this was me last year this was my crappy car this is my little flat now look at me with my Lamborghini and so on and I've done it all in a year and that could be just to set a course which of course there may not be a lot of truth in that but the point is the messaging is actually try and get there quick and there's a lot to be said about building that resilience piece that can come from my dad was strict on me you know and it wasn't always fun but I think he very much viewed and it was always a military background there from his dad being a brigadier an element of actually my job if you like is to build you for life and it's not always going to be friendship and I probably have I have a softer much softer kind of relationship with my kids but there's still plenty of don't do this and need to do that and this is why whereas there are certain parenting scenarios that are just totally hands-off and almost it's like leave it to school and that's and that's pretty dangerous right it is and I appreciate sometimes with them when people say what when what are you most proud of and like the last few years and or you know whether you think you've got it right with my children my children to sit down and we've been away while I've been working and they have to actually come to lunches or dinners with clients and everything else.

14:20And people have been astounded. They just keep on saying your children are so well behaved. Now they haven't seen it when we left that dinner and then that's complete chaos. But for those dinners is my children converse with adults. They have a conversation. And it's also they're like they're not they said they're not on iPads. All we see now kid on iPads in restaurants. I said, yeah, we don't really have iPads. We take drawings, we take, you know, and I'll be there drawing with them at the table and colouring in and whatever other sort of little play things they have. And I think that's important.

14:55My daughter the other day chose, I was going out into the garden because now I'm in the age of gardening, of cutting my hydrangeas down. My kids were, we were at classes, it was a weekend. And they chose from not watching, not being on a game on their iPad or watching TV. They said, can we come and help? We love helping you because you always encourage us to come and help in the gardens. They've got their gardening gloves on and now we're all out in the garden. And they chose that over sitting indoors. And I'm quite a father who's always like, let's get out and do something, which I think is important.

15:34And if my children, you know, are quite strict with anything on their iPads, they get an hour one day. And when the time's up, like your daddy, time's up. Like, we didn't regulate that very well. Like, you have to maybe have 10 minutes and then 10 minutes. And they're understanding this. Or when it's out, they know not to argue. I say, well, okay, but that's time out. Go and find something to do. And it's important to also say to them, you go and find something important to do. Or something fun to do. And, you know, and they're building dens and they're playing together. And they're like, well, can you take the dog for a walk?

16:03can we do? I'm like, yeah, we can. And being present as a parent is, when you say being present as a parent, that's different, I think, in these days, because what I'm seeing, and we can all be guilty of it, is being with our children, but on our phones. So everyone is on their phones. And there's a massive difference. And we all know how guilty we can be of being on Instagram or something else. And half an hour goes by. And what actually have you been looking at for that half an hour? And that's not time with your children. So we are all guilty of it. Yeah. I'm not blaming anyone, but we have to be, you know, just about, and don't have your phone there put over the other side of the room.

16:42You won't keep looking at it. They are addictive. They're addictive for adults. They're addictive for children. They're designed to be. They're designed to be. And I can't argue, listen, I'm a person that very much, you know, was a disruptor within the male fashion industry and chose to, you know, very different ways of doing something and aiming for things that other guys hadn't done before. So I can't look at social media and people saying, do I need to work hard? Because I'm seeing these influencers who are flown by brands to all around the world, paid to be there, and all I have to do is take a couple of videos and post it, and I'm paid to do that.

17:23How can you argue against that? Would you want to say, well, no, no, you have to pay for that yourself, and you have to work solidly for five, ten years and then you can afford that and then you can post it. That's a very hard sell. And people are, we are now seeing, if I'm understanding right, that people are aspiring to be influencers. Yes. I think it's actually the number one choice of teenagers as a career now. It'll be because of what's portrayed on social media. And I think something that I'd love to open up with you about the graph, the effort that you put in to get to where you are. And I'll make you smile now, but by being born a very handsome man and being able to then, in context of working on yourself, I want to know the understanding you went through of, you know, you used the word gentleman earlier, which I'm really glad you did because that's how other people that I know that know you describe you.

18:16And I can have fun with the handsome bit and that's clearly been a big part of your career, becoming a male supermodel. I believe the only male supermodel. No, there were a few, but I've... Well, let's keep it... That's how normal people have said, And that's the perception. It's another word you've used as well. The perception is, I think he's the only male superman, which is really kind of credit to you and how you built that brand. But I know, without knowing the details, that you've worked really hard to get there. And so I want to understand that behavior element. There's looking good, but there's also knowing how to behave.

18:51There's a sort of behavior, if you like, that's gone into how you've got work, how you've created opportunities for yourself, which is so much more than just being a pretty face does that make sense yeah i mean that's um i i mean i can't i said we're coming into my 25th year into this industry and first of all you don't know anything i didn't know anything about the fashion industry i'd inspire to come into it so again i was very much relying on my agency and tandians and as i talked about um and at that time yeah we were i was first three years were tough but i had good commercial work good commercial clients, mostly catalogue, being pretty decent money.

19:31But anything I do, I always think I want to be the best at it. So my aspiration was to, I always wanted to, I grew up with the Levi's guys, the Levi's commercials, the famous ones, I want to be that guy. That's what I want to be doing. I want a fragrance, I want all these different things. So it was just I suppose wanting more and determination to get there and that's why I said to Tandy that this is what I want to do and I've said it a million times in stories but she said okay you have to give up everything that every client because you can't be seen as commercial we've got to go back to editorial we've got to get a break somewhere and I think I know where the break is I think it's with Dolce and everyone always said you're Armani you're Armani and Tandy Anderson went you're Dolce and Gabbana you're Dolce and Gabbana and we orchestrated a meeting with Dolce.

20:21Now, I had worked with Dolce a little bit on shows, but that was it. And this was five years later. Tandi orchestrated for me to be at a birthday party where they were, and she faked an airline ticket that I had to pick up just to get me at this party. And that's what I did. I walked there, and Dominica and Stefan over there, and they said, David. Obviously, I looked a bit different. That five-year change, and they went, okay. Two weeks later, three weeks later, So I was booked for the campaign. Did the campaign. I was doing the show in Milan. Heidi, my agent called me up and said, right, we're negotiating on something big with Dolce.

20:55And that was light blue. Yeah. And look at that one. Which I was doing for eight years. So in context, you kind of manifested that. That conversation with Tandy, it was like, this is where I want to go. This is where I want to be. She's someone that then can make that happen. Can we bring confidence into the conversation? Because I've heard you talk previously that you were a relatively shy young lad. To then go on and do what you've done, you've ultimately been very public-facing and there's eyes on you, there's cameras everywhere. And a lot of people, myself included, could be like, oh, that's intimidating.

21:30What's the purpose and that visualization of what you want to achieve almost like what overrode the confidence? Does that make sense? Because you've got to want something, haven't you? And then you can get past what could be seen as self-conscious and imposter syndrome. What's the drive to make it happen? It was the drive, definitely. And I think there's the confidence side. I don't think I was, and I can't really, I don't know if I've looked at this, I don't think I was a confident child. I don't think I was a confident model when I first went there. But I knew what I wanted, and I knew there was a way of getting there.

22:04So playing, I can go back to playing sport at school. I knew I probably wasn't the most confident footballer or rugby player or cricket. I was quite confident in cricket at a later level. but I had the confidence in myself, not probably in football, but in rugby and cricket that I could change a game. I mean, I could see a game. I saw something differently in cricket and rugby. I was like, we can move this, we can change positions, I know. So I think that was my difference of reading a game rather than being the biggest one on the rugby field or the best cricket player. I was a fast bowler, but then I would just analyse I realized I could I was captain a couple teams I was like just give the ball to me I'd like we need to get a couple wickets here I could go and get a couple wickets and I quite didn't realize that at the time but until I was older I thought you know I could actually do that yeah which I wish I was confident in myself but afterwards and before I wouldn't you know you wouldn't know I had any confidence kind of whatsoever so it's a constant something different of belief and that was how I came into the industry where the fashion industry and just looked at what the what the men had achieved we had the you know the female supermodels and none of them that you needed to um to even name their surname you know you had kate naomi and christy all those different i thought how'd you get there and everyone's saying you're crazy you're not going to get there like that's that's for women you're never going to get to that level um until you know we're on the closing ceremony of the olympic games and that's naomi and kate and a few others and then And there's me, the solitary male model.

23:40Again, there's a real visualization to that. I think that's really inspiring. That's what I'm trying to say to you. I think there's a real core message there, right? Actually, this is where I want to be. And one way or another, and having the right people around you as well, clearly you've made... The right people and having a plan. I mean, some people don't work on plans. Brands don't work on strategy or plans these days. It's very odd to me. I always say where I want to be. Don't have to say it to someone. I have in my head what I want to achieve. So when we did sort of like Blue, it was then after that, well, where do we go from here?

24:10Well, we kind of want to, we had to build the name. We had to know that it was David Gandy, not the guy in the Dolce commercial in the white swimming shorts. We had to build that name up outside of the fashion industry. And that platform gave me to do, you know, to be able to do that. And then, of course, we did the, you know, the sole underwear campaign with Dolce. It's something we want to do. they then other opportunities like the David Gandy book came up with Dolce and then I realized what was going into brands it was more being ambassadorial role and and going into brands that weren't as big as Dolce but I saw the opportunity of bigger rates exclusive rates building those brands up those brands getting sold and yeah that that was it was something different I was doing as well to two other guys then realizing yeah I want a collaboration with a with a with a brand which M &S we went into M &S and did for six years we did 90 million quid of sales and again no one there wasn't a guy collaborating with brands at that time they were modeling for brands there were celebrities actors footballers all active but none of them had this collaboration yeah and I did so yeah it's um there's always got always says got to be a goal because otherwise where you where are you aiming for and we say life's a game of chess and clearly there's the checkmate at the end how are you getting there yes constantly people putting things in the way or your things being taken away and you're still diverting you know to get to the end goal i love that and it yeah it may take a bit longer it may take a bit shorter yes um other things open and some things that you you start a goal and then something else comes along and you divert you go somewhere else and then actually think oh yeah i wanted to that was where I was going here that's what I wanted to do but that's staying present with it I feel like you've got that and again you're checking in with yourself all the time I'm not letting whether it's money or perhaps something that's not true to your purpose and what fulfills you if you like and another thing that's very consistent is staying in good shape it's it's part of you being able to look as good as you can and ultimately that's what you want to do in that side of the profession if you like and I'm interested to know how that's evolved for you from a young David to sitting now still in really good shape.

26:28What are you doing both physically and mentally to keep fit? This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate C. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more applicants than non-sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney+. Let's go! Get ready for a new case.

27:06We're the greatest partners of all time! New friends. Gary the Snake. And your last name? The Snake. Dream Team. New habitats. Zootopia has a secret reptile population. You can watch the record-breaking phenomenon at home. Zootopia 2, now available on Disney Plus Rated PG. And right now you can get Disney Plus and Hulu for just$4.99 a month for three months with a special limited time offer. Ends March 24th. After three months, plan auto renews at$12.99 a month. Terms apply. Well, I was a chubby teenager. No for any reason of bad eating or not exercise or anything else. It's just the way I grew up.

27:41You know, I grew slightly out and then I think I hit 17 one day and I got out of bed and I was just over six foot two. and I was quite, you know, not gangly, but you're that awkward stage, you're not really a man, you're not really a boy, there's nothing on you. But I still had quite a big frame. But I was always training, so when I couldn't then play sport, and I was at starting university and I wasn't playing team sport as much, I then got into training, I then got into the gym. I'm teaching myself that. So everyone kind of thinks it was, I hated being skinnier, I always wanted to be bigger.

28:14And it was probably, I remember playing rugby. I went to Gloucester University for a while and getting smashed around the park. You know, with all the Gloucester boys and Welsh boys and Cheltenham boys, I was, you know, from Bilyeuric and Essex. And suddenly that level went up. And that's when you had to be realistic. You go, OK, I'm not part of this. I can't be. I'm just not good enough or I'm not big enough. So there was that will to sort of get in the gym. And I did it for myself. It was how I feel more comfortable. So going into the fashion industry, it wasn't suited for the fashion industry at all.

28:45I mean, I was, I mean, I can still say a shoot I did last week and they gave me a Dior clothing, put them on, doesn't fit. Still to the same day, it doesn't, I don't fit sample sizes. And they used to call me like, you know, the big guy that coming in. I wasn't a big guy, you know, where it was a 40 chess and a 32 waist. It's not big, but it's, you know, bigger in fashion during that time. So of course you go from that when none of the clothes are fitting you to the point of okay now we've got David Gander I came the clothes will be made for him and there's now the roles change you sound a bit more respect within the industry and they were choosing you to be part of their campaign because of who you were and they were changing everything to suit you which is a nice position you know something to be in you felt like you had a bit of control there and that was one of my biggest things I never wanted to be controlled by the industry I wanted to be in control so there's always elements of the mindsets of people.

29:44I think you've talked about younger generations now is the idea of having to, when something goes wrong, dust yourself off, not lose determination and keep on going. I think there was once when Ralph Lauren, I still hadn't done Dolce, Ralph Lauren booked me on a shoot and Litch had a backpack walking out the door, it was going to be my first biggest ever job ever. Agent called up and Heidi said, yeah David they've cancelled you they've got the last minute everything's cancelled and that was one point I went I'm not sure how long I can keep doing this but again next day brushed myself off and carried on and I've actually just shot the Ralph campaign last year so it's taken me 23 years to get Ralph but I finally got it yeah whereas others in that moment could have actually that could have been a defining moment where David Gandy as we know it wouldn't have happened and you'd have gone off and done something else the resilience piece?

30:37The resilience, I also think they're not having, I've always said don't believe your own hype, that's one of the biggest things and a lot of the guys which I saw them make mistakes, so there was a core lot of guys during my time who I looked up and said god you're doing so so well within the industry, but they all believed their own hype, they all became quite big-headed and I was on one job with Gantt and I was working the same as this really big model, and he was on the phone, he was late, he turned up on the phone, he was on the phone all the time, he turned up late the next day. I carried on doing Gantt for many years, he never got offered back, so I saw instantly that you're never too big.

31:21And that's why I've always, on a set, I don't think I, we don't have a big entourage, I don't have a big team, often on my own, you're always on your own pretty much the whole time. and you know I'm still talking to everyone on set you know I probably you know I probably have more in common what I think with the guy behind the camera or you know the the guy who's bought the car for the prop than the very famous person I'm shooting with yeah yeah there's a difference but there's a relatability though isn't there also that actually helps you because you've got a team there that in any way feel they can share with you how to make something better and you in any way will ask questions because you're clear in naturally curious person.

32:04I say that because the observational piece, like noticing those lads that were doing very well, but were up themselves, you know, were believing their own height. There's an intelligence. That's probably the word on... I think inquisitive is good. I always like... We're going back to my daughters, and she's like, Matilda is so inquisitive. She has to know how something works. She has to know how everything works, or has its place, or animals, and all the difference. As soon as someone says that, to me the child's inquisitive academia doesn't mean as much to me as probably a lot of people don't be inquisitive side asking people quit not talking about yourself children doesn't talk and I don't I think what I do is probably quite boring for other people so they expect with other people I can sit there and they will just talk about it's happened a lot over the last few years of talking about themselves what they have achieved what they are doing how important they are the watch they've got on that gives them that and I sit there and that's really interesting, I carry on asking questions, I carry on asking questions I'm smiling, beaming because I have a particularly one daughter that is super inquisitive and curious cannot stop asking questions, loves animals as a horse and I'd like to think, and I think we can power this, that that's come from what she's seen and learnt and heard from how I go about stuff in the same way it's a pleasure to be able to ask you questions and learn right now despite the fact that it's all you know I'm learning so much now and I crave that because that's growth right yeah absolutely and we're in definitely I mean I'm still we are heading towards a very different time I've been in the fashion industry where you know we were taking camera you know film camera you know we had resistance to roll the films they went way off to the lab we did we never saw it to then that was a progression or not but into digital seeing it on screen that change industry because a lot of the brand the marketing department everyone was there making decisions instantly of course to the point now of then social media then that change from people doing spending money so much on amazing creative big campaigns to just put them it's all about your social numbers and I feel very sorry for a lot of the younger models coming in because they haven't got those numbers and it's not based on merit of casting someone like you would maybe for a film on the best role it's cast a lot of the time on they have 200 ,000 followers so they're going to be better for us which I don't believe in whatsoever such a competitive place now as well to build a policy and AI is I've talked about AI how we have the Ralph or the M &S I've just shot there's 40 people on set when I say 40 people there's of course there's DPs and photographers and assistants and stylists, makeup artists, chef, car drivers.

34:58So many people are employed with this one shoot. And now you've got brands who are bringing AI, which of course is one or two people maybe on a computer and scraping people's images off that isn't regulated to create what they want on screen if they haven't bought people's image or license. And so I've been talking about that as well. I think it's a major talking point, especially with a government who they want more tax but they seem to be not realizing that within this industry and I think within a lot of industries AI is going to make a lot of people redundant because I can see from those 40 people if they're two people on the screen you're making 38 people redundant and what are we also the other side of what are we showing to our children you know a lot of my career has been based on are you providing an image that is not attainable and I always argue against that or a body image that's not attainable and I say it is attainable if you want to be in the gym every day and you want to do it for 25 years then yes it is attainable and it's hard work but what are we now showing our children that we're saying don't be on social try not to be on social and I will speak about probably that in a minute but now look at campaigns and look at films and look at imagery and that doesn't even exist.

36:13That person doesn't exist, that clothing doesn't exist at the moment, it's all created by a computer. So you're talking at the moment about a massive, massive change and we as parents and within this industry have to learn. We have to, you know, this is something we have to change all the time. You mentioned you want to talk about that, let's talk about that now. We were talking about social media earlier and how there's it's probably the biggest conversation in our house household uh to do with how we're managing it the addictive algorithms managing the kids and then our social group like you know you get together for a minute it's like how do you how do you manage your kids with their phones and so on so you know opening that up in terms of also then how that's flipping into the young kids both boys and girls and what they see as role models and so on what would you do if you had that kind of say, if you like, of, I'll put you almost as a government position, what would you bring in from what you see in...