Dr Anna Persaud | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:00It's really unpleasant to say, but in those early years, I had a PhD and I was like a cool girl. I was sent out to take doctors out for dinner and it was horrible. Tell me, who is Dr Anna Persaud? I'm a scientist. I'm an explorer. I'm the CEO of This Works. And I'm going to add entrepreneur, founder. Yes, that too. Listen, guys, you have just lost at least six hours of your day to TikTok. what you should be doing is following your natural biological rhythm focus concentration goal setting achievement all of the hormones and neurotransmitters are there to power us through the day and as we move towards the evening they change if you describe it as an injury so a nervous system dysregulation yeah rather than using a label like trauma yeah it sounds like it can be fixed dr anna persaud i'm really looking forward to this conversation thank Thank you for joining me.

0:57Thank you for inviting me. Pleasure to be here. Tell me, who is Dr. Anna Persaud? Well, the latest version, because I've had an upgrade, system upgrade recently. So, I am a mother. I'm a daughter. I am a sister. I'm the CEO of This Works. I'm a scientist. I'm an explorer. And I'm an adventurer. I love that. Yeah. Lots there. And I'm going to add entrepreneur, founder. Yes, that too. and the journey there for me entwines I guess you know sort of your own lived experience if you like to then doing so much to now help others I'd love you to elaborate on that okay so um my training as a scientist came out of a really a strong need for evidence and data and I did one emotion because I find I have found emotions really difficult to navigate I can talk more about that.

1:55But for me science was a way, it was a tool that gave me answers, gave me hope, it was always evolving. The, you know, the diversity, the inclusivity around entering into science 35 years ago. So my journey started with finding a way to manage my inner world using science as the tool and so over the last 30 30 plus years 35 years science has become my vehicle um but I realized that actually my passion was really trying to understand people around me as I tried to understand myself so taking that scientific training and then applying what I call my super sensory skills. So my nervous system is different to other people's.

2:51I suffered nervous system injury as a child. And nervous system injury means that if it happens in childhood, you have a system that is, in my case, wired to looking for threat, wired to be able to understand people around me really quickly, to be able to make sure I'm safe. And so when you've got a brain that does that and I rapidly be able to look for patterns look for possibilities that are going to basically keep me safe I took that through my scientific training and then into my consumer goods world that insight that super sensory skill to try to create products protocols stories that would help me make sense of my inner world but also help other people around me because I'm very sensitive to other people's nervous systems.

3:46I can read their nervous system before they even know it themselves. Wow. And you're a doctor. So there's an element of intellect there. But that feels like that's also very much a learned human skill, if you like. That's empathy on steroids, if you like. I'm probably saying all the wrong terminology. But that's a vibration. It's a sensory skill. Like we can all... Like brains will co-regulate. You and I, we're talking. I'm very comfortable with you you've got an openness you make me feel safe in this conversation that's not true of everybody but I realized that since I met you today um so brains will do that in a room you know humans are supposed to they evolved in groups in families and if we when we end up in isolation without other brains to co-regulate that's when our nervous systems can feel quite distressed so it's not surprising then um that i can feel other people's nervous systems react it's just i've got a heightened ability to do it which can be difficult because it means i can over empathize of course you also makes me think how there's almost a loneliness pandemic out there right now with the particularly with the social media fighting for attention and tech in general fighting for attention where if we do in any way even unconsciously vibrate off each other and feed off each other as human beings, so much of that is being missed now.

5:09So much of that is not how we live anymore. We isolate ourselves. People are eating dinner on their own, even as a family, you know, and that's quite sad to hear. Are you stuck staring at your W-2? Are tax refund worries holding you back? You probably have FOMO, the fear of messing up. The fix? Using TurboTax on Intuit Credit Karma. They find every credit and deduction to help you get every refund dollar you deserve or your money back. It's time to overcome your fear of messing up and get your taxes done right. Start filing today in the Credit Karma app. A hundred percent. I mean, it's it's a really it's one of the reasons why I have to be amongst other humans, not all the time because I'm actually introverted and I like to be alone.

5:59But I know for my mental well-being, I have to find like minded brains. like-minded people and you know we don't all have the luxury of living in families but we should try to find communities to be with people to be next to so that we can help to regulate ourselves because in my my view on the world and my lived experience being able to regulate your nervous system means everything else is easier to live with because your interpretation of the world around you is through your nervous system yes so if it's dysregulated either because it's been damaged or it's dysregulated because you have inadvertently allowed technology to keep you in a state of arousal which in my opinion so many of us have living in the fight or flight constantly we're wired to it naturally for protection but we seem to be stuck in it because tech demands our attention all the time and the brain is just responding to that demand.

7:03And so when we want to be regulated, when we want to be calm, when we want to be able to, our nervous system needs to do the things it should be doing. It should be, you know, resting, digesting, I use it, feeding, breeding, right? Connecting, intimacy, digesting our food, being able to connect and have intimate conversations, creativity. to you know these things are powered by the parasympathetic nervous system and we are not able to do enough of that sadly because of the way that we are we have become wired thanks to the culture and the tech around us but i like what you're saying in context if you describe it as an injury so nervous system dysregulation yeah rather than using a label like trauma yeah it sounds like it can be fixed so an injury can be healed and i guess this is where you come in because i imagine that just these last few minutes of conversation will have piqued a lot of people's interest going, that's me, I want to get out of this cycle of doom scrolling and then binge watching Netflix, whatever it is that's taking the attention.

8:04What advice can you give to someone and what are you doing to try and help in any way for yourself, let alone as a business, to try and break that cycle and heal? There are people who will have acutely dysregulated nervous systems. So no one's the same ultimately. Right. There will be people, there'll be people listening to this who will think I've always been a bit stretchy I've always been a little bit too aware of threat I'm hyper vigilant I can't relax they may not use the words I'm using I'm using kind of technical terms hyper vigilance they might frame it as I can't switch off things like worry me things other people don't notice they will be like oh that feels that makes me uncomfortable the nervous system is responding to cues in their environment that makes them feel uneasy and if that is something that you've always had then that may be a consequence of you know your biological predisposition because there are people who are who will have a biological disposition to having high anxiety it's called anxiety personality traits they'll be more sensitive um there'll be people who've been damaged through childhood experiences um and they and so you've got acute people who are acutely dysregulated and then you've got the rest of the population who at times will find themselves dysregulated because of a life stage a life age so it may be due to menopause right it may be due to adolescents going through puberty and maybe because you've lost your job you may be grieving someone's died you know maybe a macro event going on around you and you in that period feel constantly uneasy you can't relax and it's that's the nervous system being you know more permanently in this state of arousal and that's very uncomfortable for us to live in it's exhausting as well it's very tiring the nervous system gets very tired and then our emotions become much, much more volatile, right?

10:07So what emotion... When you have a dysregulated nervous system, you will have emotional volatility or an avoidance of wanting emotion at all, which is very much how I spent quite a lot of my life. I don't like emotions, which is why I like science, because emotions make me uncomfortable. So what... Because I think this is probably where this works, and our time the product that you brought out which is very much aroma based and i'm really interested in this because i was going to ask you and still will what have you done as almost like your coping mechanism yeah to remove the emotions and bring the science in and i think that's that's clearly something that we could all now benefit from yeah and i thought thank you so this works is a british brand that um has been on the market for over 20 years okay so it was created using essential oils um my role when i came in over 18 years ago now 18 years was i'm a scientist as you say i'm a research scientist and i believe that uh products really need to give you what you expect i i really don't like people things politicians anyone that says one thing and does something else like i just just don't accept and there is a there is a certain amount of lack of authenticity and wishy-washy elements of the especially in the in the wellness sector right you know you coming at it from a mathematical scientific point of view is really refreshing i think it's because i don't want to be disappointed right i'm fed up with people letting me down you know and i want to be able to honor when you put a product i take it very seriously if i give you something and you don't like it i want to know what i can do to make it better so also the brand's got an amazing name this works right big promise if you're going to put that on the market in my view you have to honor it like give me evidence show me the science and so I've been my purpose my mission has been create products that solve problems first of all mine and then make sure because I know there are lots of other people because I can see them around me let's make sure we can help others so let's put products that have got a scientific robust backbone because that's my knowledge that's what I expect that's what I want to show people I want to say to you Johnny listen this pillar spray will help you to get to sleep more quickly why because I've done a study and I can say that 89 % of people got to sleep more quickly 200 people self-diagnosed insomnia it's not me telling you it's not my opinion it's a volume of data right so I love and like to use data I like to use clinical research we've also been using brain and this is the really exciting thing that I'm very fascinated with now which is neuroscience and the convergence of neuroscience and beauty so we call it neuro wellness and our products now all have a neuroscience base to them so we started looking at aroma um back in 2017 we're one of the first beauty brands in the space and together with our neuroscience professor he's called Gabby Bader he's an amazing academic and researcher we started looking at how aroma and aroma molecules when you inhale them what they do to the brain so taking some of the kind of empirical knowledge we have about essential oils and then saying but what do they actually do and do all are all oils equal and what would happen if you could look at an oil and then what if you looked at a molecule and you could see that when you inhale that molecule it goes very quickly to the brain it crosses through through the nose into the brain very quickly far quicker than ingesting anything and what if these molecules could help to make a shift in the brain and in the nervous system and over the years we've looking at molecules in this way we've been able to see that you can do that and that you can craft aromas in a functional way so you can say I want to be more calm I want to be more relaxed I want to be able to get to sleep more quickly or I want to be more alert I struggle to focus i want to be able to focus more quickly or i don't want to be so stressed i want to have a lower threshold before my stress kicks in and aroma actually can do that and we've so we've shown that in our in our studies so we've taken my my belief around solving problems quickly without over promising in a way that is accessible we've done it through neuroscience research through looking at ways that we can make these products accessible so putting them onto the market in a way that price points are accessible packaging people can understand and then we put content and lots of education to help people to understand how small daily rituals can make a big change so back to nervous system regulation you can do things to your to your to yourself and to to your family to friends which can take your nervous system out of arousal into calm and touch techniques we talked about regulating with brains but touching is such a powerful human tool and if you never have any other humans touch you you're missing a very very important regulation tool so um there's a there's a something called effective touch which is a touch technique which is done on parts of the body which are pursuit where you've got hair.

15:35The cells in the skin are called C-tactile and they have a direct link to the parasympathetic, the calming nervous system. And so if you just gently stroke the skin, not too much intensity, but just gently stroke the skin, you can take the nervous system into a much more calm state. And if you combine it with aroma, which we've done in our studies, you can increase that benefit. it. AI is incredible. It can teach you how to fry an egg and even write a poem, pirate style. But it knows nothing about your work. Slackbot is different. It doesn't just know the facts, it knows your schedule. It can turn a brainstorm into a brief and it doesn't need to be taught.

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16:58It's fascinating. I mean, I'm learning real time, so I am in danger of potentially almost asking what could be seen as a silly question. But my brain's gone to how much money people spend on perfumes. And I have to say, just are made to smell nice with no function. Yeah. Whereas you've... And I think from what you're saying, these molecules, as you describe them, are actually having a function. So it's not just a nice smell. No. And forgive me, but that's sort of potentially where I was... I thought it might be, it takes to a nice place it calms you but actually but it's actually science behind what you're breathing in absolutely i mean i'll say this i mean i love the fragrance industry i spent you know 10 years of my life in in you know fragrance well um at dior i have massive respect for the fragrance well because they can do a lot when you use a fragrance it's a decision to use right you it is an extension of your persona but I would say it's usually for the outside world when you wear a fragrance you're saying look at me and I want you to think this about me depending on what you've chosen but the fragrances that we make and the new one that we're launching called own time is for the inside world it's not for other people's benefit it's for your own your own ability to self-regulate and I think that that power uh is very important i would say that the other thing about molecules so in the you know using we've done great research and we would i was explaining to you earlier about my my life in the cannabis industry so you know it was a great great moment in time four years working in in the cannabis industry still at this work so we were part of a big um cannabis organization um because CBD which is a derivative of cannabis had lots of potential for use in skincare um and it does unfortunately regulations made it really impossible to be able to sell it but I've done studies and it really does work um but I was also exposed to all of the conversations and investment and strategies around using cannabis and derivatives of cannabis so we're talking THC psychoactive part of cannabis and um CBD as well for changing mind changing the state of the brain because people want to they want to change their their state of mind they want to be more relaxed they want to be high you know you want to you want to control your state um it's fascinating and and cannabis can do that depending on the strain of cannabis that you're using and the concentration that you have so obviously I'm in cosmetics and I'm in the UK it's illegal here but what I did was learned about molecules which are called terpenes which are they are the aroma molecules found in cannabis but also often found in essential oils and that that understanding that terpenes can interact with the nervous system gave me the idea to create a product that would help to switch nervous system state, like cannabis can, but through a perfume.

20:08So I took my scientific learning, then all the research we'd already been doing on aroma using our brain imaging techniques, and we crafted a fragrance, bottom-up, molecule-up, to be able to support the wearer's shift from daytime alertness into evening calm. and for me hence our time it's its own time because what we're saying is listen guys you have just lost at least six hours of your day to tick tock or whatever your choice is like why what you should be doing is following your natural biological rhythm of the day where the body will naturally move from daytime focus concentration goal setting achievement all of the hormones and neurotransmitters are there to power us through the day and as we move towards the evening they change they should change right so that we are able to sleep at night we're able to digest our food we're able to connect with others it's it's our natural biology right but we're no longer doing it because we're still wired into the day and we've lost time so this fragrance is called own time take it back it's lost to you if you allow that to happen but these are such important hours for your well-being this is how in my opinion we can learn to regulate our lives and ourselves is to put what i call somatic barriers boundaries around our nervous system and say i'm not letting this in we're just like it's just happening to us because we're just sitting there and we're bombarded with messages and we're just letting them come in you have to put the boundaries around your nervous system and protect your biology and if you do that you have a much better chance of being able to regulate your nervous system and everything else will feel better i just wonder whether you've experienced any prejudice as a woman founding a business and it's not stopped you being successful but whether you've got your own take and own stories there i've got so many donny can you elaborate because i'm genuinely interested tonight i've got so many and last night i was saying to you earlier i went to what's an industry award ceremony called Cosmetics Executive Women Award winners for people who, for their lifetime achievements.

22:24And I looked around the room and I saw a mixture of women in my age who started 35 years ago, and then the young, you know, super talented entrepreneurial women coming through. And, you know, we faced very different challenges in our years. um the it's so tough now that the complexity of marketing to the consumer is like mind-blowing you know because of the way technology has has changed everything to how we find consumers and what messages we serve them but to answer your question the old guard and i'm the old guard what we had to battle through i don't think people today will fully appreciate so my experience Obviously, I come from mixed parentage.

23:13So first of all, I grew up in Britain. I was born in Britain. I'm brown. And that had a whole, you know, series of issues that I had to contend with being of colour, making, having to be acceptable in business, you know, with be as white as you can, be as acceptable as you can, just be as white as you can. did you feel that you in any way to be successful had to kind of mask and shapeshift to do that or did you try and stay because one of the things that's very clear about you is that that scientific element yeah sticking to what you know calling out lack of authenticity i feel like you've managed to hold on to that and keep that did you is that is that fair to say or did any one time you feel like you were in order to try and reach a certain success or milestone have to try and conform to Absolutely.

24:00I mean, I started off in the pharmaceutical industry and it's really unpleasant to say, but in those early years, I had a PhD and I was like a cool girl. I was sent out to take doctors out for dinner and entertain. I mean, I think, I hope, I'm told it's all changed, but it was very much about the ego of the doctors. that I was just literally sent out there to take them out to dinner and it was horrible and boundaries got crossed and it was really unpleasant and I left because I was not prepared to do that that might be very uncomfortable for the pharmaceutical institute to hear but it was a playbook for sure then my experience was in big big co big co companies um and then And you're battling against there being men at the top.

24:56You know, I'm afraid I've always had to skirt around the whole kind of sexual harassment thing. It's always there. And you just learn how to deal with it. And I got stronger. I got stronger. And I remember thinking, one day I'm going to have my own company. I'm not going to have any men in it. Don't worry, I have got men. I've got 50 50 on my board on my directorship but When I felt at the point where I was leaving these big companies I thought I'm not gonna let men tell me what to do ever again and My investors will probably say that's still true Don't like being told what to do by men because I had bad childhood experiences So I got stronger and I learned that In the cosmetics industry as well.

25:45I'm not going to get judged on how I look even though it's a cosmetics industry and even though looks is still part of it we don't want to admit it but it's still part of it I knew that I had to be judging what I did and how I performed um I made that very very clear distinction a long time ago but I also had to battle against having children as a as a director and wanting to be with my babies and not being able to be there was no flexible working I had to travel internationally I had a child that was three months old I had to go to Japan I had to throw my milk away I mean there were lots of it was expected it's like you want a career you got to do it I and I you know I I'm sad about those times and I'm glad for the women of today who have the right to say no I'm not coming back for a year and I do expect you to give me my job back and I do you know the men who's saying I am going to take paternity leave but these things just didn't happen so it's good i'm pleased i've lived it i've survived it and i'm able to make sure in any organization i'm in that's not what happened i appreciate sharing that's invaluable and i've clearly got a very there's a very resilient version of anna here that in any way has that perspective to not wish that on anyone else and it does feel like you know your generation in any way has smoothed out what what will be for my daughters.

27:10And I thank you for that because I think there's an element of chauvinistic, archaic behaviour that, you know, I certainly wasn't brought up around and haven't, because I've always been an entrepreneur, I've always gone on people. My currency is people, so I'm vibing off you and spend time with people I want. But that corporate stroke, more structured element to business seems to have got some really toxic traits that you've obviously experienced. experienced. On that resilient version of yourself, along the way, being that entrepreneur and all the sort of test and learn, if you like, that goes with all the things you've done, particularly being a scientist.

27:49Yeah. Where do you sit with how you kind of prioritise your own mental and physical fitness? And what I mean by that is, we could describe you as successful right now, right? For so many different reasons. Global brand, the longevity that you've had and keep pioneering into what becomes own time and so on. I'm just interested to know whether any one time you sort of found that balance where being successful means you've got a sort of morning routine to fit in some of the things that do matter to you, keeping fit, yoga, and kind of what that is to you as well. What does that look like? It's a constant juggle.

28:21I say to, I love, you know, I love to mentor and I, when I see young, young, much younger people than me coming up through, they've lived at home, they've had, you know, I've got a son himself, just started his job and it's a big challenge right because they've they're taking on their job but as you know as you go get older things change you now have a family then you have a household then you might have a dog and then you've got parents that are aging and then and more and more and more things get added and we're trying to still show up and perform and for me it's like you've got to perform I've got to deliver but there's no time and so I'm a I'm an expert at shaving the edges of things to just It's like constant this, fine tuning to get enough self-care in.

29:07So my morning, people laugh when they see it, but I do things in combination. So I will stand in front of a big red bank of light every morning whilst doing my weights, whilst also with my neuro-sim, stimulating my vagus nerve, with my... Also with a red light on my head whilst doing my teeth, all at once. Proper multitasking. Because I can't go to the gym, so I'm like, all at once. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate C.

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30:25And stream the new season of Tell Me Lies, January 13th, on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. um so i've built i've learned to build in things that make the difference micro moments in the day that i still struggle to do right i'm no stop i need to go outside for a minute like light and taking light is one of the most powerful medicines you guys in here you need to get outside enough in the morning to get the anxious circadian rhythm first hour within the first hour of waking, but also in the afternoon, helps to protect your sleep at night. So I know so much, and I'm like, well, I have to do it then. You've got no excuse, right?

31:07There's no excuse, and I have to keep showing up and being my best self, and I have to, you know, be evident, and I think this is, I believe in authenticity, so there's no point in me saying, yes, yes, yes, you can, you know, do your life like this. No, we can't. We haven't got time. so I'm going to give you practical quick biohacking ways to do it and I'm not going to lie to you I'm going to tell you what it is so if you're doing something stupid I'll tell you like no that's not a good idea like if you drink all that alcohol what do you think is going to happen I'm not going to make that easier for you no you're so interesting to talk with I don't want this conversation to end I'm conscious of time and I want to ask because there's you've been on a real journey and you've articulated a lot of it I wonder if there is a destination if there's a milestone or something you'd really like to achieve or if it's all part of version one version two version three of Anna and it continues to be a journey I think it'll always be a journey I think you know nervous system regulation is an ongoing task I'm getting so much better at it I'm pleased and grateful for that I think I I want my my purpose system is to educate as many people as possible about what nervous system care is and how much control we actually have over that so through our products through our fragrance through our you know our content and our community because i think i really distresses me to see how people struggle i knew before we sat down that i was going to learn so much from you and i was interested to know how that lived experience translated into ultimately your business your brand and it's it's literally that's been this conversation it's like i would like to be asking you now almost like what would you do and have you done to help yourself everything you've done to help yourself you're now helping so many other people including me so i just wanted to thank you you're a busy busy businesswoman who's made time to come and talk with me today and i thank you thank you so much thank you