Dr Megan Rossi | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:13Dr. Megan Rossi, thank you for joining me. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Yeah, I've been looking forward to it. I've got so many questions from a personal perspective to ask you, but let me start with who is Dr. Megan Rossi? Who is Dr. Megan? That is a good question. So I guess I would call myself a scientist. I work as a research fellow at King's looking at all different types of nutrition interventions and how they impact our gut health. I would call myself a dietitian and nutritionist. So I see patients 101 looking at how we can improve their gut health to improve perhaps It's their mental health or hormone regulation and things like that.

0:49I don't call myself an entrepreneur. I just, I don't know. It's a weird word. I'm going to call you that. Okay. I'm going to call you that. We'll come to that. Yeah, but I've obviously got two businesses, BioMe and Newly Smart Strains. And I'm a mum as well. Love that. So I think that's probably me wrapped up. Let's go straight on the entrepreneurial side of things because you've got a passion and purpose that you're sort of going ahead with in business. And you've created your own environment. you created your own business there that's entrepreneurship but that's a founder if you like talk me through that journey so that's kind of the lived experience if you like the influences that then led to you getting into that yeah look gosh if we if we rewind quite a lot to how i got into gut health because i you know have been working in this space for over 15 years before it was a cool thing right i think it's only the last five or so years mad how it's cool but it was always so important yeah exactly and so it was i actually grew up on a farm in australia very different to my current London life.

1:46So I was doing all the things we now know is good for the gut, right? Eating the dirt and the fresh fruit, all that sort of stuff, growing this amazing community of the bacteria in our gut. But actually my first conscious encounter wasn't a happy one. I lost my grandma to bowel cancer. And, you know, I was raised by my mom who was, you know, working full time. And, you know, we lost my sister when I was younger. So my grandma was a really big part of, you know, my upbringing. So I hated the gut, right? It put her through the surgery, the chemo, then obviously took her life. So I had a really negative relationship with the gut.

2:20And then, you know, I kind of suppressed those emotions and started working as a dietician in the hospital setting. And I was seeing all these different, you know, conditions, like you said, the lived experience, whether they had different types of cancers or whether it was kidney disease, heart disease, mental health issues. And all of them were coming to me complaining of the gut. And I was like, gosh, what's going on here? And then I was also really fortunate to be the nutritionist for the Australian Olympic Sea Christ swimming team and found that these elite athletes were coming to me complaining of the gut.

2:52And I was like, this organ is haunting me. Like, what is going on here? So that was around 2010. And I thought, you know what? I owe it to my patients, my grandma, my clients to find out more about this organ. So that's when I decided to embark on a PhD, looking specifically if I target the gut through the right nutrition, including certain types of probiotics, whether that could improve the health of not just those gut symptoms that 30 % of people are struggling with, but systemically throughout the body. Could we improve heart function and kidney function and things like that? And it was that PhD that completely transformed my relationship with the gut.

3:30I was like, wow, okay. So the gut shouldn't be hated and be feared. it just misunderstood and that's the word isn't it misunderstood interesting and so that that journey with natural curiosity all these things pointing did you have any thoughts then about the fact that you were going to then go on to help people and be an entrepreneur or was it just through that whole like you know actually this will make me a better version of myself and and more knowledgeable and I want to understand it yeah so helping people has always been you know at my core of, you know, why I went into nutrition and dietetics.

4:02It's my why. And when I did that PhD, I was like, wow, I can improve people's lives in very real and often surprising ways. Cause this is a landmark scientific discovery that we have trillions of bacteria in our gut that are in control of so many things that we historically, you know, the big human ego was like, we do, we dictate our, you know, vitamin production, hormone regulation, and everything that we're thinking of. And now we're like, oh, actually maybe these microbes are doing more than what we thought, right? So I was like, this is amazing. This is how I can help people. But I'm sure you've been to Australia.

4:35Yeah. Yeah. Very far from the rest of the world. So I was given advice from a mentor saying that if you wanted to establish yourself as a scientist after your PhD, you need to go abroad just, you know, for a year and then you can come back and continue your research world. So I was like, okay, well, who's doing the most innovative gut health research? And Kings were kind of leading in that space. And I'd argue still leading in that space. So I begged them for a job and moved over to London 2015. Wow. And yeah, like I said, I still work as a research fellow. But I think in terms of you saying about the entrepreneurialism, you know, I see myself as a scientist who got so frustrated that despite all of the amazing work being done, it wasn't being translated to the public or products.

5:19Right. So I was like, there's a gap here and it's injustice to the science, to the gut health research. so I need to do something about it. So what did you do because that's sort of coming over 2015 and I love the humility and the humbleness about not being an entrepreneur but you've got a huge social following so I'm using it as an example where people have gravitated to you they've come to you because they're learning from you and you are not just giving them knowledge but you're doing it in a way that sort of is enjoyable if you like it's been done that wasn't been done differently so it wasn't been done previously you could go on Google and the information's there Yeah.

5:56You're doing it differently. Where did you stand out from that? Where did you sort of make your niche, if you like, and build a personal brand? Yeah, look, I think it was really good timing. So, you know, when I was here for about a year and I just, like I said, got frustrated about that disconnect. So I thought, you know, how can I have more of a voice versus, you know, just complaining as a scientist saying, oh, there's a local communication. So social media was what everyone was doing. Right. So I was like, OK, well, I'm going to set up, you know, the gut health doctor. And if I get a few hundred followers, I'll be doing more of a service to science communication than just complaining.

6:28And it was, like I said, I think luck, great timing. The media started to talk a lot more about gut health. So I think a lot of people were looking for a credible voice in that space. And I was there as the research. You made your own luck there. Fair play, right? You put yourself out there because that's the other thing. A lot of people are not prepared to or would see it in a professional capacity. A lot of doctors, they're not on Instagram. Yeah. So you were ahead of the curve of that. This is where people are getting their information from. Were you aware of that? Or were you just sort of...

6:58No, I was. I was conscious of like, this is where people are learning information. Because I, as well as being the researcher, I, a couple of evenings a week, was a dietitian on Harley Street, just to make sure that my research stayed relevant. So I was seeing patients, really intelligent people, like CEOs and stuff, who had heard from social media that certain things were good for the gut when it was literally the opposite of what we were learning. so I knew that's where people going for information I'm like well I need to get there to kind of bust the myths and yeah that's I want to open that up right so talking off camera like conversations with my wife with friends the crew and what they're eating right what's the kind of almost biggest myth if you like that you could bust now where something we are all doing that we shouldn't and dare I say something that we're not doing that we really should be doing yeah look I think one of the myths out there around gut health is that you need to follow a really restrictive diet.

7:53And a lot of people are like, oh, cut out gluten, it's inflammatory. But actually, if you look at the research out there, people who have the most gluten seem to have a more protective metabolism. They have a lower risk of things like type 2 diabetes compared to those who have very little. Not because gluten is some amazing thing that we all want to have more of. It's just that if you're cutting out gluten, you're cutting out barley, wheat, and rye, which contain these types of fibers in them, which really nourish these anti-inflammatory gut bacteria. So I think one of the key things we need to be aware of is that restricting foods unnecessarily.

8:26So obviously those with celiac disease, we know they need to cut out gluten, may have knock-on consequences. So one of the things that we're seeing to really enhance gut health, which is actually quite simple, is trying to eat something from the super six plant groups each day. Now, I'm not going to put you on the spot and ask you what the super six are. Yeah, don't. But actually, can you say them? Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. So your whole grains, so things like your quinoa, your barley, your legumes, chickpeas, butter beans, those sorts of things, your fruit, your veg, your herbs and your spices, and your nuts and your seeds.

8:58Now, it's all foods like, oh, I could do that. But actually most people in the UK are just not hitting all super sex. I'm trying to think of how I would do that. Today's a bad example because we're filming and busy and so on, but a day where I've got some time but I'm still busy. How do I... Moving on to a different question, but how do I get them in a day? What's an easy way of doing it? That's literally why I created Biome, right? So that's the food, gut health food brand. It's because there was really a lack of diversity in foods. So one of the things I was judging on one of the women's health panels of all new food products coming to the market when I was about to launch Biome, and I was like, there's literally not a granola, which is where we started, that I would put my name to as being good for the gut, because it didn't have that plant diversity.

9:43You know, it had things like added sugars, which are unnecessary. You know, in granolas, you had the full fruit. So you get a bit of sweetness, which everyone loves, but you also get these polyphenols and fiber to feed the gut bacteria. So it sounds quite nerdy, but I think changing the way you think about food and your gut bacteria is really helpful. So whenever I'm eating something, I think, okay, is my taste buds going to love it? Am I going to enjoy it? Yes, tick. But actually, is there something that my microbes are also going to enjoy? Because they are working so hard for me. They are so powerful.

10:21So if I be really selfish and just like constantly graze on the food that I love and don't nourish them, then actually they're not going to be strong enough to look after me. So the priority is not the taste buds. It's actually what you're feeding your system, your body, right? Exactly. And you can have both, right? You don't need to, it's not the sacrificing. It's the same thing with like, you know, instead of having a refined sugar in your granola, have the whole fruit. So yes, you get the sweetness and you enjoy that, but you also get those fiber elements. So kind of thinking about those whole, the whole foods is really powerful.

10:50And you know, there's studies out there which shows that a lot of people in the UK aren't having the legumes, but it's so easy, right? You can get, it's really accessible, 80, 80p can, add it to literally whatever you're having for dinner. It could be pizza, it could be takeaway, just add the can in. and there's a study from um bergen university which shows that having legumes in your daily diet can add an extra three healthy years to your life wow who doesn't want that right yeah longevity this is that was how we met we met that longevity forum and i remember being so impressed that that everything you came up with hence wanting to for me to say because who doesn't want to be the best version of themselves so that's sort of optimum performance if you like we're talking about keeping fit and i want to want to know how you prioritize that as well and then and then what we feed ourselves and I won't lie I think I've prioritized the sort of physical fitness side of things and then I'm lazier with that and I wonder if that's an education piece which is what's why I genuinely wanted to learn from you today so talk me through if you can a sort of a um a kind of morning lunch dinner if you like of what you would eat and I know that's not necessarily for everyone but it's just be good to know and also I want to know what you do physically to keep it as well yeah absolutely so I always make my overnight oats I'm like very religious about that so I get my buy me granola, add my buy me kefir.

12:04And what happens, I like, it's again, a very nerdy thing. I'm a scientist. I like to think that the microbes from the kefir, which is like you have milk and add the microbes and they ferment the milk sugars, you add them to your granola. And then overnight, those microbes are working hard to kind of start to continue to kind of ferment some of that granola. And actually you'll find the flavors are so much more enhanced if you leave it overnight than if you just like had some kefir and add your granola the next you know all at once sort of thing so I love the flavor and I love the microbes are using their culinary skills because they're amazing with creating flavor right they're like that's you know chocolate coffee microbes are involved in all of those really flavorful foods so they're amazing there as well it's not just health benefits but they're really good on the flavor front so that's what I have for breakfast I am a snacker um and I know there's a lot of to know.

12:55Yeah. So some people are like, oh, don't snack. And you know what? It's completely down to personal preference and what you're snacking on. The only exclusion to that is if you struggle with constipation, which is actually quite a common digestive issue, then actually trying to not snack. So just have your three meals a day is probably best because in 90 minutes in the fasted state, this movement called the migrating motor complex kicks in and that kind of like pushes the food down. So if you're always grazing, that movement doesn't help you poop. But if you don't have any pooping issues, then it doesn't matter, right?

13:30We can snack. Yeah, exactly. But if you are struggling, then you want that mass, the migrating motor complex to really push things down. So that's just one tip. So I'd try it for two weeks. If it doesn't help you, then you can go back to snacking if you enjoy it. But thinking about what you're snacking on. So I often just have some like mixed nuts that I kind of go to or a piece of fruit or something like that. But for lunch, it's always just like a mash of just, I always think super six at lunch. Like I always prioritize that, but it will be a mash. It'll be like leftover veg, get a can of mixed beans, you know, get one of those sprinkles of the mixed seeds and just make whatever I've got.

14:07Like could be tuna, could be salmon. But consciously putting those groups together, right? Yeah, exactly. So you're thinking about what's going on rather than the taste. So one of the things I recommend people do is, you know, when they're planning their meals or having a meal about to eat it, go, OK, have I got something from the super six in this bowl? If not, then go mix some seeds on top, you know, or go, you know, add some mixed grains or something like thinking about those super six because it's each different category feeds a different community of gut bacteria. So if you're just focusing on the fruit and veg, then you're going to miss the microbes that are amazing at other roles, like maybe it's hormone regulation or mental health.

14:48You need to nourish that really diverse range of microbes through all the fertilizers, essentially. Yeah. And then dinner. I'm interested in two things. One, what you eat, and also that sort of timing element. So again, kind of almost the myths. I'm forever telling my kids not to eat too late because it sits in your stomach and says, I don't really know what I'm talking about. So when should we eat and what's best to eat in an evening? Yeah, look, so it is good to not eat too late, particularly if you suffer with reflux, because if you're laying down, your food's kind of in your tummy, it can pop this esophageal reflux kind of open.

15:20And obviously everyone gets a bit different time, but are you talking six o 'clock, 6.30, seven? I would say usually like four hours before bed is a good time to kind of have your last meal. Now, there's always nuances to that, right? Like, for example, if I'm late home from a function, I'm really hungry, it's better to eat something than be starving because you're not going to have a good sleep if you wake up at 3 a.m. because you're so hungry. Right. But we do know if specifically if it's you struggle with reflux or weight is an issue. So there's been some studies out there, really small studies, but controlled studies, which showed that people who ate the exact same thing, but just different timings, those who ate it earlier actually seemed to like switch on more fat burning properties in their genes and weren't as hungry the next day.

16:07So a lot of people obviously focused on their weight management. So I would say bring your meal forward. And then I guess that goes into the fasting, you know, concepts, right? And it's true that fasting for a minimum of 12 hours overnight is important for your gut because it wants to kind of clean it and get things all like renewed and everything like that. But these extended fasts that last for like, you know, a couple of days as a detox for your gut, actually, firstly, there's no science that that's a good thing. And anecdotally in clinic, I find a lot of people end up getting really sensitive guts when they reintroduce the food.

16:44so actually that's not because there's potentially some health benefits that they're feeling in some ways i know people have just just done it including a guest that was here last week was saying he just passed for two days and i was thinking i can't do that yeah i just i mean it's i've got discipline in so much of what i do but and i don't want to either yeah but i haven't tried it yeah he was saying he felt great yeah but of course it's probably not recommended for the reasons of an expert point of view yeah so that i mean that's the whole thing right like i'm all about giving people what the scientific studies have shown and then there's always going to be anecdotes that have worked, but for specific people.

17:17I would say that, you know, coming back to the research, there has been studies in animals because they don't typically measure it in humans, but animals who've gone on extended fast, what happens is their microbes get hangry, just like we get hangry, and they start to eat away at the mucus lining of the gut, which then essentially means that more things can penetrate the gut lining and create a bit of more inflammation. So mechanistically, that makes the same of what would happen in the human gut when we go on these extended fasts. But of course, if it feels good for certain people, you know, I'm never going to say you can't do that.

17:52But it's a case of why are you doing it? Because there's no scientific studies out there to date that have shown that it's going to improve your gut health. There's animal studies showing about longevity. But again, there's nuances to that. And, you know, when we look at all the sanitarians, you know, they're not going on these long fasts. This is fascinating. Yeah. Just one thing that you said that I picked up on. You said it's better to potentially eat rather than not eating if it's got late and so on. So Megan's at the airport or a full on busy day and you've just you've just not got those options.

18:25You're not prepared something. Because I imagine you do that take stuff with you. Right. And so that's that's let's just say you haven't been able to. And it is that classic. You may well not be able to eat anything other than I'm going to pick a really bad example. say McDonald's or not eat, do you eat the McDonald's? I would not eat the McDonald's. But I would find something. I would find something. You'd find something, yeah. I'm being dramatic. But actually there's an extreme. So there's certain things, and I picked a brand, but there's certain things you simply would not put into your gut and you'd actually go without, but you'd try and find something for the better off.

18:54That's the point I was making. Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing where again, I'm all about making convenience foods good for your gut. so you're not in those positions where it's like mcdonalds which takes a bit of planning as well right because i think that's where a lot of people get caught out i try and have a banana in my bag and some nuts and stuff which sees me through because i am i'm definitely someone that likes a snack which i'm quite pleased i can do that you've been in touch on the physical fitness you are a vision of health right and it's in your eyes it's the it's the sort of glint of your life but also physically so you've got the you've got the gut health side of things but what do you do to keep fit?

19:28So I'm, I love HIIT exercise, like the high intensity. A lot of people say, oh my God, but that's not great for your gut. And yes, if you have sensitive gut, drawing all the blood away and having really high adrenaline is going to probably create some gut issues. But I'm fortunate, I think probably because I grew up on a farm, I don't have gut issues. And I love that adrenaline, that feeling. So as well as the fact that it just fits into my lifestyle, you know, the kids I can't go to the gym and and do long pilates classes and all the things that you know historically I used to love so high impact high impact 20 minutes done and it just makes me sleep so much better when do you do that what time of the day I actually do it at night before bed that's interesting because everyone says do it in the morning right yeah yeah um but again those sorts of things it's like you need to what makes you sleep better like what feels good for you and there is no universal you know systematic review which is a group of studies that say you it's better to do it in the morning or better to do it in the evening it really that science even shows it's personalized in terms of when you do your best you know pb and when you exercise at your preference interesting i'm guilty of doing a workout in the morning which i feel good for and then i have a protein drink now i i think i bought a decent protein powder and i put a banana I'm in and so on.

20:47Where do you sit with those sort of powders and so on? And I mentioned a couple of brands earlier. I'll just use those sort of greens juice from PrEP. It will see me through a busy afternoon. Where do you sit with that? Yeah. So let's talk about protein powders. So what I would say is that if you are going down the protein powders route for convenience, just make sure you get the non-flavoured ones because a lot of them have got like the artificial sweetness in it. And the jury is still out, but there has been some rumours in the clinical research suggesting that certain types of these artificial sweeteners might not be having a very good impact on your gut, as well as food additive emulsifiers.

21:22In fact, my team at King's have just finished a world first clinical trial looking at food additive emulsifiers. So these are found in like over 6 ,000 foods in the UK, really prevalent, particularly in like the ultra processed foods, protein powders are a common one, protein bars, those sorts of things. And actually it was in In those, the study was conducted in those with mild to moderate active Crohn's disease. So they had inflammatory bowel disease. But what we put them, half of them went on this emulsifier-free diet. And the other half got the normal sort of emulsifiers that, you know, they would have had.

21:57They were blinded to it because we fed them. So they didn't know which group they were in. And those who had the low emulsifier or no emulsifier group, they actually had a significant reduction, not only in gut symptoms, but also their disease severity. so that now has put a lot of attention into okay well we've got you know these 400 additives that have been approved of safe but that was all before we understood about the gut microbiome so we now just need to start retesting the safety of a lot of these additives and i never want to be fear-mongering but i think the concept is we need to be very conscious of the number of these food additives that we're having you know which i think a lot of people who are trying to eat healthy they have these you know diet protein bars and protein powders and they've got a lot of these a table full of them over there right i wasn't pointing you know um but it's just rethinking that so and they're all by the checkout and they're all they're they're sort of the marketing side of these things is especially if you are a snacker and you think you're being sensible we're not grabbing the kitkat or the the traditional yeah i'll get that because it's healthy yeah it looks good but things like you know having a bottle of kefir so kefir is the fermented dairy and it's high in protein.

23:07Like that's what I have after a workout when I need to feed my muscles. And like you said, then a piece of fruit or something. Personal question. I like that keffiyeh drink. I feel like it's good for me, but how much do you drink of it? Because you can buy it in the big or the sort of that. Is that sort of bottle size of whatever, it'd be like a bottle of water to drink the whole lot there and then? Is that good for you? So again, it depends on what your energy requirements are, right? So if you have just done a workout and you want that 20 grams of protein hit yeah having the 500 uh because i do do that yeah yeah well you need to start having the buy me kefir because it's really interesting in this whole fermented food world right so if you actually tasted probably the leading kefir product on the market versus the buy me one you can actually taste the buy me one has got this like effervescence and this little bubble on it which highlights it has been fermented and it's got these organic acids which is what we've associated with in the clinical trials you know reducing inflammation and all that sort of stuff.

24:02So I think we need to be careful of, you know, there's a lot of fermented food is amazing, but there's a lot of like fraud sort of products and not legitimately fermented, if you know what I mean, like in the right way that the clinical trials have done. So you just need to, I think, if it tastes too good to be true, same with the artificial sweetness, then it probably is. If it tastes just like a thickened milk, super sweet, is it really fermented? Maybe only two short isn't there where the flavoring element that too much flavor tasting too good is unfortunately not good for what we're doing it for whereas when something isn't particularly tasty you've got to get past it i think you've got to is there one thing that that potentially a lot of us are doing that we really shouldn't be doing that drives you mad because you know it from a professional point of view and it's probably been talked about and you've but people still do it is that one thing we just shouldn't be doing yeah i mean i think if we focus on not just what we're eating about how we're eating.

24:54It's eating on the run when we're stressed, you know, on our phones. I'm so guilty of that. I understand this before you arrived, stood up whilst chatting and so on. That's standard for me. So I should be sitting down. We should be sitting down. We should not be having stressy things going on in our head because actually it's really not effective digestion. So particularly if you're getting digestive issues, like, you know, you struggle with bloating or altered bowel movements, that sort of stuff is a real sign you need to start doing that. And there's, you know, been some really cool studies which shows the power of chewing which sounds so boring and obvious but actually what they've they've done is when people chew they chose almonds in this scenario 40 times per mouthful they absorb so much more of the nutrition than if they only ate it like chewed it 10 times you actually pooped out a lot of that good nutrition so you paired the stomach better because you've just you've destroyed the food ultimately to yeah it's not only the physical breakdown but we have enzymes in our saliva which start to chemically break it down as well as you preparing the rest of the body.

25:51So detressing and chewing is actually more important than we probably have thought about in the past. Yeah. You mentioned earlier sort of clients that come to you from a business point of view, and some of those people are super high achievers. So striving to be the best version of themselves, without being generic because everyone's different, is there a sort of almost a high-performance diet? It might be those 6Ms and so on, but what can we all do to try and elevate through our gut health our own performance yeah yeah honestly it is the super six really it's having to stick to that and focusing on them every day because that's not actually too different you think about and so because those people are potentially c-suite and high achieving sports or entrepreneur yeah if you like so um just by being educated in that and then disciplining yourself yeah and and cutting everything else out i guess you know being Yeah, not being super fixated on it.

26:45I can't have chocolate again because it's not, you know, one of my super six. It's getting in the super six as a foundation, always thinking, okay, have I got the super six? And then, yeah, if you want to have, you know, some chocolate on the side, go for it. But actually you'll probably find the more of the super six you have, your oral microbiome, so we've got bacteria in our mouth as well, start to change and your taste preferences change as well. So you're not as likely to crave the sweetness and the sugar and things like that. And then obviously, you know, specific foods, we know that blueberries are really high in these polyphenols called anthocyanins, and that can help increase the blood flow to the brain.

27:20So if you're having a really important interview or you really need to like use your memory and focus, having a cup of blueberries or about half a cup of the like freeze dried ones is a really good shout. I need that for days like today, right? Yeah, exactly. Quick one, really relevant to my family. Yeah. So we have a snack drawer, which is my fault. I just didn't have a sweet tooth when I was younger. I've now got 13 and 15-year-old daughters who shouldn't be eating sugar. We know this, but I've created a sort of a snack drawer. And so you have a really healthy meal, let's just say it's a lunch.