Felicity Hayward | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:13Felicity. Hi. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. Tell me who is Felicity Hayward? I am a plus-size model I would say I maybe don't do plus-size modeling as much anymore but I was one of the first in the UK of my age in 2011 I am a writer I'm an activist I have a rescue pup called Matcha just out there oh what a babe and um yeah I'm I'm someone that really tries to fight for inclusion in the fashion industry and it's something that I'm very passionate about but something that came when my life changed I became a model and there's a lot you've done on that from the TEDx talk to campaigning to writing a book it's been a long time it's been over a decade and continues right yeah where did the early kind of influences if you like um shape who you are now I always go back to the fact that whenever I'm like who who influenced me and I wouldn't say to become a model because that's something that I never ever wanted to do or thought could even be a space that someone like me could be in but my yeah my earliest thing has always been my grandmother so she is was a absolute rock star woman she had five children um she working class family always had second-hand clothes but looked like royalty so whenever I think of my nan I always think of like these amazing like bright green or like raspberry 80s like suit jackets a ridiculous sort of like pearl brooch and this like amazing poem and this woman she was someone who just looked perfect every single day and she always taught me to be myself so we're not talking about like oh she thought you know be yourself and become a model she always taught me to be unapologetically myself however that was and I didn't particularly have a great relationship with my mum being a teen I was a bit of a punk and I always used to wear like quite outrageous clothing that my mum didn't like and it was always my nan who was the person that was like no go for it we'd go to all the car boot sales we'd go to all the charity shops when it wasn't cool and sustainable to be charity shopping and we'd make clothes so she used to make all of her clothes as well I love that yeah so she's she's a role model She is 100 % the reason why I'm here.

2:56And you're a role model. And that's a key to flip from what your grandma instilled in you, which is confidence and self-belief. And one of the things that I'm really interested in is I'm a dad of two daughters, 13 and 15 year old. And I'm immersed in business and entrepreneurship. Less than 2 % of VC funding goes to female entrepreneurs. And I was thinking initially that that might be because of an archaic, broken, chauvinistic system. But it also seems to be that there's a lack of self-confidence and self-belief in girls coming through. And when I really dug into that, it's the lack of role models.

3:33How important are female role models? Well, like I said, I mean, I didn't ever think I could have a career like this because there was no plus-size models in the industry of me growing up. so I didn't number one I didn't I wanted to be an archaeologist when I was younger I didn't ever want to be a model but I wouldn't have even that little thought wouldn't have even been in my mind because I couldn't tell you a larger woman that was in fashion that represented me you know I think at that time we always had the bigger women that you could see on the television for example were always the comedians there's always the funny women it was never the confident never the love interest never the the strong woman it was always just the joke you know so it is super important for people to have women to look up to in in all spectrums this doesn't surprise me it's only two percent so where's this all come from going back to modeling yeah it feels like modeling's got a lot to answer for and i know this is what i want to kind of almost hear it for yourself, I know you've written books about this to talk, but at what point did someone determine a look that then became the role model, if you like, for so many women to even then, even bring the label into it of plus size?

4:54Because if I'm right, plus size is like 14 and above or something. It's actually 10 and above. I've been telling everyone it was 14. No, it's something. And I was surprised at that. it's it's it what it is is because um in the fashion industry sample sizes for like fashion designers so a sample size is like a size eight so anything above an eight that's not sample size becomes plus size which is it it's so frustrating because the UK average is now a size 18 so the average size is an 18 but the fashion industry is claiming that anyone over a size 10 is plus size it's it's a corrupt system that it all stems from from actually we had one amazing designer called Sinead O'Dwyer who includes the most incredible models on the fashion week and she even said that as a fashion student going to university they don't provide like plus size mannequins so if we if we're having the sort of the the issues are even in education and these young designers and students that are coming in and trying to be inclusive they're having to spend a lot of money to get plus size mannequins plus size patterns you know the problem is from within this is relatively recent in history if you go back to kind of renaissance art and look at the the way women are drawn, often naked, they're not size eight, size 10.

6:28They're curvy. They're voluptuous. So on the basis of that, this has all come in through, I guess, more modern fashion designs, when did that become the norm? How did you break that? And I imagine that's probably a hugely frustrating conversation for you to have. But what needs to happen? Because you normally go with the average. You know, if the average car is being bought needing four doors, that sort of becomes the norm. whereas it feels like this has been suppressed or held in some way that of course has huge knock-on effects yeah well I think um a lot of people don't realize that BMI for example something that a lot of us deal with when we go to the doctors was was built for insurance you know back in the 1800s so it was like if you had a bigger body you would spend more money you'd be more expensive to insure um and there's things nowadays that you know I'm not a doctor so everything that I am saying right now is things that I have learned but might not exactly be the gospel because I know doctors would like to come back at me and say the truth but when you look at BMI and they say your weight is determined by the number on the scale you can turn around and I can say well you can look at American football a rugby player you can look at someone who is a larger in status who is technically obese on the scale but they're not they're fit and they're they're playing sports for our country we also I think the diet culture has a huge huge impact in the way that bodies are seen you can look back for the last 100 years women in the 1920s were given tapeworms to stop them feeling hungry in the 40s they were given cigarettes and told to smoke like a pack a day not knowing that that could obviously cause cancer in the 50s you had like Marilyn Monroe who was this you know curvy starlet in the 50s there was advertisements for people to have fat gaining pills so women were given these pills to then gain weight to have these curbs in the 60s twiggy came in and it was that androgynous look very slim you then go to the 80s when it was all like very sort of aerobics fitness sort of very strong you go to the 90s and it's heroin chic and then you come to the 2010s i mean sorry heroin chic we're telling people that it is chic to look like you're on class a drugs just just putting it became normal in the industry yeah and then you go are slightly becoming more trendy you have the likes of a certain american family who um are all having injectables and the bbl like concrete right they're not they're going to professionals and having it done but you're but they're this you know is the kardashians um oh um they're having bbls done they're having all this surgery done but they're not telling they're following all the young girls that are looking up to them so we were having young girls going to motels in america um and getting these injections into them that were some people getting concrete this goes back to role models yeah and every every era you mentioned then has got a role model but damning and damaging for the next generation so actually the modeling industry has got a lot to absolutely because that's what we see on the front pages of vogue that's what we see on poster boards yeah those same people seem to be chosen in the looks seem to be chosen for the roles in hollywood if you like that make the biggest films there's probably all sorts of other films we made that we don't get to see them so what i hope to these particularly girls coming through however if actually you know if you are plus size yeah i guess you don't feel like you well it's the same with the industry is like you know we saw the rise in body positivity in sort of 2016 2017 and every brand wanted to use a plus size model and because they wanted to tick a box and now you know it got to a stage where I wrote this in my book and I wrote in the TED talk I was like it's 20 2016 the rise of body positivity I was like you know they're the trend can't go backwards or what's going to be the next trend and I sort of made a joke about it I was like you know people are going to start stretching their feet because long feet are going to be fashionable like as a joke obviously but thinking that there can't be another trend after this we've got to a place where all bodies are accepted i know we've gone backwards we've gone back to the 90s we've gone back to heroin chic there has been so much more um fat phobia and hate online since this trend has started to go backwards um yeah it's it's it's really disheartening actually so help me with this so i completely struggle and can't get my head around the heroin chic yeah then i have this whole scenario that every time i go into any shop to buy whatever it might be as i go to the checkout there's rows and rows of confectionery sweets crisps all loaded there that in any one shape or form if i eat them have a good chance of making me obese my point being that i'm as disciplined as i can i'm pretty lucky with my metabolism but i'm talking personally but to there's nothing healthy about being obese either.

11:54So the plus size being plus 10, you know, whatever you then, if there's a conversation that goes to whatever size is then might be potentially not healthy. It just, there's nothing healthy about plus 10. And I thought it was plus 14 when we first sat down. Why can't you champion everyone's body shape? I mean, there's an element of the middle piece, whatever that is. Heron Sheik is the extreme hugely kind of obese is the other but the bit in the middle is just people isn't it and it just seems like we're just focusing on purely one tiny bit and it's the wrong end of the spectrum well i think as well the the problem that we have is that because the fashion industry in particular is idolizing the heroin chic and making sure that if you are above a certain size you are to blame for everything wrong in the world but they're never saying that the underweight people the people that are addicted to class o drugs the people that um you know are smoking and drinking and are severely underweight are the problem and i think that's it's it's really difficult being in a bigger body being told that you're not good enough but somebody that is smaller who might be addicted to drugs is more healthier than you you know it's a really difficult place for us to be in and I think the problem is is that because no one is treated equally that's where all the problems lie you know it's the same thing of when you come to fashion and it's like people make plus size ranges and everyone's like well the plus size range needs to be more expensive because we use more more fabric more clothing which is true but the smaller sizes use less fabric but they're not cheaper you know it's not consistent it's not consistent and i think if you want to have people feeling um that they are accepted and if people are unhealthy and they want to make change they're never going to be able to do that when they're constantly bullied you know so on that yeah where you've got almost like one size seems to almost be winning any battle that's going on.

14:09You are out there, outspoken, quite happy to champion plus-size women and be almost like a role model and a figurehead for that. Do you feel almost the pressure that goes with that where there are women that, dare I say, don't have the braveness, if you like, to come forward and speak out and you almost want to kind of have more people that are shouting about this? Because it feels like what you're saying as some of these people are feeling in any way minority inferior and just kind of well that's our lot and living like that which is no way to live but society's created that and if that's the case do you get an outpouring private people that are saying i wish it'd be more like you i wish i had the guts to say that and so on or is that just not is that not a thing i think people are just generally right now really really struggling with their bodies and i think i don't i think people are just all on their own personal journey I think as well at the moment the thing that I'm really struggling with is a lot of people that are outspoken who wear these role models um there's a there's a big thing with those mpick at the moment and a lot of people who wear plus size are now taking these mpick or and they're completely shrunk their whole body um but I've done it in a way that is quite dangerous and it's a really it's a really tough subject to speak on because on one hand I don't want to speak about women's bodies and I don't want to talk about it but when we are seeing for example the plus size supermodels that we have on the runway they're now shrinking I can't tell you why they're shrinking if it's just their diet the stress the pressure the anxiety if they are taking weight loss injections but we're having our plus size role models are shrinking to the point where there is no we're starting to get no real inclusivity within the fashion industry and for someone let's just say someone that is has an eating disorder someone that is struggling with their weight they do need to have role models they do need to have people to look up to be like I am actually equal in value and my worth and I'm a great person and just because the the number on the scale might be higher might be lower than it should be my worth should still exist and i think that's where the problem is and people always say to me i'm like i'm not telling you to look like me i'm not telling you to be my way i'm telling you to just find that self-love and the truth in yourself to find that like body neutrality is that even a word you know i know what you mean you know what i mean it's well articulated you know it's like i'm trying to tell people to not listen to the noise to find that self-love within yourself and once you find that you're going to you're going to be able to to make those changes but doing it for yourself I love that you know and would you say I think I would really answer this quite clearly I'm going to ask you from your grandma's early influence to the journey you've been on to sitting here right now have you got that peace and contentment of how you look how you feel I have now but it's not something that that happened overnight I mean it's so strange because when I think about myself as a teenager I really thought I was so overweight and so big because I couldn't shop and top shop and my friends would all be shopping in there and at the weekend I couldn't buy stuff from them and actually looking back at the photos of them I was like a size 12 14 you know I was in proportion I was the size I should have been at that at that moment but the industry had made us all feel that anything over a certain size was was not fashionable not not accepted the fashion industry has so it's so so toxic and I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here and that is always the way when I speak about these things but there's so many things that happen in the fashion industry people don't even realize there's a thing called vanity sizing so if you've heard of it and what it is is essentially brands so let's say we've got brand number one brand number two and you are a size 14 at brand number one right brand number two know that you're a size 14 and what they're doing this vanity sizing is they are making their sizing bigger but they're keeping the same number so it's like you go into one store and you're a size 14 you go to another store and you're a size 12 because they've made the numbers different so you appear to be smaller in a store so you're more likely to go and spend that if you ask any woman if you're a size 14 in one shop and you're a size 12 and another and you're a size 16 and three girls at home my wife and two daughters so this will probably be resonating you know they're the and we're conditioned to feel like we are of more value if we are smaller i mean that's fundamentally steering the whole thing down the road that it's continued to to be going down for years right yeah what needs to change what can change you you you've been outspoken and we're you've got a voice here but i mean can you see anyone that's got any control within industry that's trying to or is it all locked in on still being i honestly think the government could could make a difference and i think for me and i'm just talking about fashion here and the influence that it has if we had an industry standard clothing chart size chart that every single brand in the uk had to abide by we would be able to tell and your daughters would be able to know I am this size and I know that when I go into this store I'm going to fit this store is actually not for me this store is this one isn't and it would help so many mental health issues eating disorders anxiety you know it's it's also quite strange that anyone above a size 18 couldn't walk down Oxford Street now and buy a bikini or a pair of jeans but it's the national average you know there is there is so much going on with this industry that I feel that if we had this industry standard and the government could set it we would know what brands were right for your wife your daughter they would we'd have we would be able to know rather than going in all these different stores being all these different sizes there'll be certain stores that you just won't be able to fit in and it will it will say like an extra large and if you are a medium and you're being told that you're an extra large it does play on young people's minds totally talking on about playing on people's minds you put yourself out there you put yourself right in the crosshairs you you say as you think which i love about you and i've read and watched and seen a lot before today let alone this but by doing that and and i'm going to relate this to other other women that and other and young girls that particularly might be afraid of putting stuff out there and then getting judged getting bullied how have you built that resilience what what have you gone through that's allowed you to kind of go, no, I'm not succumbing.

21:18I'm not going to be doing what everyone else does. And build a residence where these bullets bounce off you. Honestly, it's the young girls who message me and say, thank you for saying this. I feel understood. I could have 100 trolls come on my account telling me everything under the sun. And predominantly, most of them are just saying, you're fat. and I'm like I am overweight I'm aware of it you're telling me things that you're trying to you're trying to put me down I'm like I'm aware of my size and I'm also aware of myself as a person so people that that it is it is just I I can just ignore it you know for me it is something that I've had to build up because it's just like also the people that are attacking me they also have their own issues as well you know it people always attack the unknown I did a tv show a few years ago and it was it was a body confidence tv show and a lot of the time we were in swimwear you know there's a lot of a lot of bodies on show and I posted a picture of it on instagram years ago and someone just came to me and they were just like everything under the sun you know um you're a fat ugly pig I hope you die of a heart attack I hope all of this sort of stuff like but it got more repulsive I'm not I don't really want to mention all of the other things that they said and it was the first time I sort of screenshot it and I put it on my story and I was just like this is this is horrendous and I got a message from someone I went to school with and they were like I recognized that person's name and the picture and it was a it was a child at her school there's a young boy at her school had seen this and she she called his mum in and his his mum was a curvier woman and brought him in and tackled it head on and she said to me I'd like for you to come into the school for mental health awareness week and and speak and I said no because I was like actually this kid is dealing with his own things I'm not going to come into a school and humiliate a kid because they're going to know why I'm here kids talk it's not the right thing to do but yeah it's um that's that's just a very small you know a very small thing i've had i've had a lot of things have had to change uh facebook accounts i've had people yeah create accounts of mine and try and scam people of money and and yeah it's it's it's amazing how horrible people can be right and as you say often and that's it's a it's a mindset that you've obviously got where you know you're reframing it that these people are unhappy themselves and almost taking it about what awful things people so just just on that with these people these young girls that message you is there one consistent message you're getting is there one um kind of consistent issue if you like and what do you say to them what advice do you give them i think it's a lot of girls a lot of the time it's it's it is it's fashion related they're not being able to be included in a space where all of their friends are and some people might think oh that's not it's not a real big issue it is a huge issue you think about your daughters growing up like when you're you're that age and you're trying to find the person that you are you're trying to find your style you're trying to find your tribe of people like if you're not included in lots of spaces if if you're not seeing your body type on tv um in musicians or bands or you know it's going to take you're going to your self-esteem and your confidence is going to be lowered if you can't wear the same trend piece that your your other friends and everyone at school is you are going to be isolated so I think a lot of the time it's like I really like to make sure I can help young girls find the same style pieces as their peers is one of the big things and I guess another thing is just like maybe talking about like stretch marks or just like talking about your body and like making making girls realize that actually stretch marks are something that are very very natural and it's not just women that get them you see all these big muscle guys in the gym they're covered in stretch marks but no one seems to batter an eyelid or think that there's something wrong with that but when girls get them on their legs or the you know their thighs because they're literally growing because they're hormonal because their bodies are changing from a child to a young woman you know there is there's so many changes as a woman that you don't realize until you're older you know you you've obviously like you said you've got two daughters but like you know they're they're becoming a child to a teenager they're they're hormonal their body is changing they might then decide that they want to use birth control your body changes again they might grow up and decide to have children obviously your body changes after having children and then you're a mother and then you have menopause like you you're dealing with all of this timeline of just existing as a woman you even if you were on an extremely strict diet gym routine you were super healthy you can't control the fact that your body will still change and i think that's always what i'm trying to trying to say is like your body will change you need to find that self-love within yourself and ignore the noise and you'll make the right decisions for yourself that's been so lovely for these people to hear back from you with that lived experience and that that perspective and when we walked in here to sit down you brought up the fact i put out a post about being diagnosed for adhd just just last week yeah and you've been recently diagnosed yeah has that helped make sense of because now i'm understanding my own journey of light bulb moments that now make sense and so on one of the things that um can be like a character trait is wanting to be accepted hating rejection oh rejection failure yeah you've you've overcome that without even there's so much you've overcome without it but are there quite emotional moments for you now piecing a few things where you probably really have had to struggle with certain things but you've you've done it without understanding the why but now you've kind of got a bit more of a why i definitely feel like being diagnosed now i feel like I definitely do understand myself more and actually like you said like also being a model and in this industry is consistently full of rejection I've had to become very very resilient in the fact that I might not get booked something because of the color of my hair I might not get booked something because of my waist size or things things that are also out of my control at that point in time so I've had to build up this resilience of rejection so I think I probably just masked it very very well and then when I was diagnosed and I was reading about all these different things I was like oh oh I could have been a bit nicer to myself really you know that's that's a real parallel different lives but and I am trying to be nicer to myself now I overthink things and I'm being a bit more forgiving yeah you you've got so much energy you feel your energy and there's there's been quite a lot of frustration in this conversation because I'm having to bring things up that you can't necessarily change and you've been affected by and countless others are but it's sitting here now with all the things that you have done and are trying to make sort of change if you like what would you say is your purpose and what can you hope to try and achieve my purpose really is just to make people accept themselves for who they are in this present moment and and to not be tough on yourself and actually like we're all really we all should be really grateful for being here in this present moment and to sort of realize that you know aging is a blessing is something that we should really be like grateful for and just be grateful for yourself in this moment and to not listen to all of the outside noise that is consistently trying to change you because at the end of the day people are just trying to make money out of you you know the vanity one way or another one way or another the vanity sizing is trying to make you spend money in their store the anti-wrinkle creams they ain't bloody working you know it's just all about trying to home in on people's insecurities in order for people to benefit and make money from them so how can we end on a positive oh honestly because it's like you bring with, there's so much confidence that people can get from you, your energy, your positivity, what you're putting out there, that purpose is phenomenal.

29:48But it's always sort of backed into the frustration that there are so many people that are unhappy about how they look. How can we stop people feeling bad about themselves with coupling with your purpose? And the fact that the whole of society seems to push towards one size is how you've got to look and all the things we've talked about, you know, where's the positive? Honestly, that's a really difficult question. It is really difficult to be positive in a society that doesn't deem you as equal. So what is it that you do to be positive? Because, you know, I'll wake up in the morning and I'll try and get some fresh air.

30:27I want to hear the birds singing. If I'm at home, I'll get down and do some sort of a workout, if you like, to fire up my brain, my heart. but what what do you do to make yourself feel good for me personally I moved to the seaside I moved out of London and I go on daily walks with my dog along the ocean and that for me just completely sets my tone of the day and if I'm ever feeling stressed that's what I do but I think if I was to ask other people it's like write down 10 things that bring you joy no matter how big or small they are and make sure that you try and implement one of those things every single day and like I always say it's like if you've got a favorite musician or someone like we all have a song that we love why don't you set that as your like morning alarm you know or making sure that you give that person a call every week or you there's a certain color that you love like make sure you put that into your wardrobe so you write these down yeah that's cool I like that give yourself a bit more gratitude like life isn't as bad as you think it is yeah you know because that's the thing isn't it it's like it's what we make of it so yeah three minutes ago we're saying there's so many negatives and then you just literally spun it where you can write down and frame how you want your day to look even if it's just one thing and that's forming the habit right yeah creates more more things you do that you enjoy i mean there's a chicken caesar sandwich that i absolutely love in margate and i got it tattooed on my arm yesterday no way that's pretty extreme isn't it but you know why are you covering it up i mean because it's still got the it's still got the stuff we'll have to do take two and you'll have to show me that remember the day that i get yeah but no i generally think it is it is a very good sandwich um but i think it is just really like stripping back from everything and and homing in on the little things that bring you joy and actually you know it's it's so easy to get wrapped up in all of this i i definitely do twice a year when fashion month comes around and i do a report i it really brings me down and i have to make sure that a week after I really just go off and have a bit of a softer life.

32:29I can tell there's a lot of passion coming from you from this conversation what is the one thing any government or legislation change could make that would make a big difference? When we think of what is happening right now with like a Zempik and the weight loss drugs we'd be to have more regulations on people that can get it because we not only are seeing people that are the average size who are taking it and don't need it and taking the drug away from diabetics and people that are needing it. You know, we're also having people that are... I recently saw someone who was six months pregnant who went online and was able to access and order it.

33:09She wasn't going to take it, but just to prove to her point that it's like it's becoming so accessible for people that don't need it. And that is really, really dangerous. That's frightening. Yeah. but if there's any reward for consistency and you know you're at it you're you're banging that drum and you know something's got to change right then i think that this conversation there's one key message it's that it's that awareness that you know just the stats the data the the trends talking through those areas right through to you know 2025 as we sit here now where ridiculous stuff's going on but we can call ridiculousness conversation but it's kind of being emulated by all sorts of people particularly young girls which is terrifying so something needs to change but anything in this conversation that helps that is a positive but i'd love to talk into you i've learned loads which is you know hugely interesting to me i hope you've enjoyed talking yeah it's been great thank you for listening thank you