From £20K at Uni to a $10M Exit: The Power of Personal Brand | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:00I nearly lost the whole thing to a con man. Apparently he was a billionaire, he just sold a share in Jimmy Choo for 800 million. He took me to his chateau in France and to a private members club in London and we knew David Beckham. You know, all these kind of celebrities that he kind of brushed shoulders with a little bit. He basically then engineered the company to get into a position where it needed cash. The company that had been making 150 grand a month was losing about 100 grand a month. Tell me who is Sir Stoffel? I am an entrepreneur. I sold my software company just over a year ago for 10 million.

0:33Now I'm basically teaching people how to make money using a personal brand, which is what I did. So that's using social media as a force for good. It can be used, and you're doing that as well, right? I actually when I started the business, I got death threats from people who were already doing much better themselves and didn't want me sharing it. You kind of just have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. like anytime you do anything you're gonna you know you go to the gym you lift weights your arms hurt you don't see any progress so you you know you give up before you get strong but you kind of have to power through that that kind of initial discomfort in anything whatever you're learning there's nothing other than this too shall pass power through it and you'll start to get the results eventually you've got an example where it's been done really badly Andrew Tate

1:27hello welcome thank you very much looking forward to this yeah tell me who is sam's i am an entrepreneur i sold my software company just over a year ago um 10 million and then now i'm basically teaching other people how to make money using a personal brand which is what minded so no retirement off into the sunset no cocktail why i think if you're not chasing a goal always you just end up a bit depressed i i can't imagine just going and sitting on an island even if i go on holiday by day two i'm like man gotta get back to work now i've got stuff to do but too much i want to achieve there's a lot of people i know that have realized and congratulations by the way should have said that straight away thank you um that have got depressed a realization of life-changing money.

2:12Sure. What was your journey from the moment that you had the exit, money's gone in the bank, and the identity loss and thoughts moving forward? What was that moment like? It was odd for me because the only reason I sold was because I wanted to start another business. So I could have very happily carried on running that business forever. It gave me a very nice life. It was cash flow positive. But it was purely, I've got something else that I think I can do to make me a lot more money. I kind of want a clean exit, walk away, do something else. And so that was it. So for me, it was just, cool, that's money in the bank, onto the next thing.

2:50There was no kind of, oh my God, you know, I've sold my company momently. It was just right onto the next thing. So that's actually a nice journey for you. So actually that was, that was a chapter closed, but the next chapter was already lined up, ready to roll. And like, don't get me wrong, I mean, that was my, I'd had that for 10 years, I ran that company for. And it was my first business. So, you know, there's an element of, okay, I suppose a little bit bittersweet, perhaps. Sure. But very much more looking forward to the future. How old are you now? 35. 35. So you started the last business 24.

3:26Right. Okay. What was the business? It was when I was at uni, I was looking for ways to make money. and I came across this idea on Money Saving Expert where you could place bets on and against something at the same time and guarantee a profit by hedging your bets and using free bets. I made about 20 grand whilst I was at uni doing this and then finished uni, couldn't get a job and just thought, what can I do? And I was like, I know about match betting. I can set up a website teaching other people how to do that. And all I did is I picked up my phone and I basically told my story of how I did it at uni and how it basically paid my way through university, told my story, and it just took off and people paid a subscription every month to learn how to do it.

4:08There's a lot there, right? So there's... Most people go to university and come out with debt. Yeah. You made 20 grand. Yeah. There's the fact that you were confident enough to start doing stuff to camera. That stops a lot of people. Yeah. So I want to talk to you about that. Yeah, yeah. And then there's that element of not only did you work something out for yourself, but you want to then help other people. That seems a really common thread with you. Where's that come from? Because there's an element of, I'm going to say, pride without any arrogance that you created a business and sold it and crystallized making money.

4:41But it always flips back into wanting to help people. I think it, I would like to think it's just a kind of normal human thing to do to help people. I'm 48, you're 35. There's a lot of people that take advantage of others and they're just very selfish. I've got a story about that that I'll tell you a bit later on as well, actually. When I discovered much betting at uni, it was very much, this seems too good to be true. This is amazing. I can make guaranteed money by placing bets. So it seems like crazy, like risk-free. And obviously I did it and it made a good amount of money paid for my degree.

5:16And so it was very much, I'm sure everyone would want to do this if they knew it was a thing, but no one knows it's a thing. so one it'd make a great business and two it would help a lot of people which it did um you know i still now i posted on my instagram story a few weeks ago like how many you know how many people have been helped by outplayed and you get people replying like oh it paid for my first house it paid for a car for my holiday for my wedding etc etc um and so yeah there's a you know a significant impact it had on on people for sure well that's changing people's lives so it's not so actually you're in a lovely position where the entrepreneurial version of you and the way you think that you have then because you could have kept that to yourself by the sound of it so you could have potentially um in any one way not shared that out and had a different business model that might have made you potentially even more money but the way you looked at it was how do i educate and then that in turn the funny thing actually though is i actually when i started the business i got death threats from people who were already doing much better themselves and didn't want me sharing it to the public because they wanted it to be a kind of more of a secret so uh yeah definitely a lot of people that wouldn't how did you deal with that because that could have stopped some people yeah no sure um it's funny someone was asking me about this the other day how i deal with hate and it's like because i've dealt with it since literally since i started my business i've had you know abuse or hate or death threats so now these days it just literally just runs off me i'm just used to it um i think it helped because before i started the business i used to live stream on twitch for like all day every day and you get plenty of hate doing that right so it's literally just desensitized totally to it by that now that makes sense because when you said you went online and started to because there are so many i've got two teenage daughters 14 and 16 beautiful girls that are too afraid to go on to social media as themselves let alone put stuff out very normal isn't it but isn't that a shame yes and the reason why they're not doing it is because they're afraid of the judgment and the teasing which is often by the peer group that's just as terrified and therefore you're not doing it if i can't for sure and i always say like whenever you whenever you're doing something new you're going to be terrible at it like you want to post on social media you don't know what you're doing you're going to probably not going to be very good at it just like when you learn to play the piano you're going to be pretty terrible at it the difference with social media is when you fail at it it's all public so it is really a difficult thing to do because you are putting yourself out there for everyone to judge whereas another skill you can kind of suck at it privately and get better before you show anyone else which i think is why social media is something that i would love to bottle about you there's a there's a confidence about any arrogance so if someone's watching this now and almost feels empowered and inspired by you i am right now but someone uh watching listening goes well what's the first steps i can take to that so when you were on twitch all day and so on at some point you must have been nervous you must have had that fear of judgment and you got through it can you relate that back to someone that's looking at you now going i want to and this this could bring us on to personal brand and because you can't do it about that you kind of just have to get comfortable being uncomfortable like anytime you do anything though you're gonna you know you go to the gym you lift weights your arms hurt you don't see any progress so you you know you give up before you get strong but you kind of have to power through that that kind of initial discomfort in anything whatever you're learning because that's just that's just the way it goes um there's there's nothing other than this too shall pass power through it and you'll start to get the results eventually is there anything that has um sort of almost made you stop or kind of you know like whoa about a year and a half before i sold the company where i nearly lost the whole thing to a con man so uh the the kind of quick version is it's 2021 business is very profitable and i have an idea that i want to build a betting exchange to kind of go along with with the match betting company and i needed to raise money to do it because it was going to cost quite a lot to build and i get introduced by uh by friends to this uh wealthy investor a guy called jason and uh apparently he was a billionaire he just sold to stake a share in jimmy choo for 800 million he took me to his uh chateau in france and to a private members club in london and to a place in in scotland called skibo castle and he knew david beckham apparently and at the next table you know he was david beckham was on the next table and you know all these kind of celebrities that he kind of brushed shoulders with a little bit so he's very impressive very convincing very charming he basically convinced me okay we're not going to agree on valuation but we'll come up with a mechanism whereby i'll buy 25 of your company for a price a low price but you take a salary equal to the profit the company's currently making so in other words he only benefits if he lifts helps lift the value of the company and slightly naively i was like okay you know i can go with that that makes sense and And because I thought he had the kind of know-how and the skills and the money to help grow this company, I thought it was a good idea.

10:03Long story short is he basically then engineered the company to get into a position where it needed cash. So he, for example, encouraged me to dismiss our management team and put his team in place. And we should rebrand the company, which ended up being a complete disaster. Just lots and lots of small mistakes over time culminated into we're in a cash flow situation. When you want your spring break to feel like... And your kid's pool day to feel like... And your hotel bed to feel like... Ooh, and room service to feel like... Because at Hilton, hospitality feels like...

10:46Sam:Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels? It matters where you stay. Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton. For this day. This episode is brought to you by Nespresso. Introducing Virtuo Up, the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense, and taste in every single cup. With a three-second start, easy open lever, and dedicated brew-over-ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop Virtuo Up exclusively at Nespresso.com. And was this incompetence, or was there malice at play? Oh, for sure. 100 % Mallet. I'll get to that in a minute.

11:30Apologies. Yeah, yeah. So we get to the point where suddenly the company that had been making 150 grand a month was losing about 100 grand a month. And we only had a few months of cash flow in the bank. So we're going to run out of money in a few months if nothing changes. And I was in a position where I couldn't access any more quickly enough. So he was like, don't worry, I'll put the money in, but you need to cancel your salary. this has been your plan the whole time anyway around that time and then i had a private investigator to look into him and everything he told me about himself was either a lie or exaggerated so he had a place in miami that he said was worth 40 million and i found out he'd sold it for 3 million and uh he told me that his uh wife had died in childbirth and that he'd raised his two daughters himself i found out his wife's still alive you know just lots and lots of full-on psychopath stuff and then i also found out that he'd done it to about seven or eight other companies that he basically gone in there deliberately engineered its downfall and then tried to take it from the founders very luckily i was able to sell a building and then put the money in myself to to bail the company out basically uh diluted him ended up in a legal battle for uh the shares basically uh and he got caught out in a lie uh and got basically nothing for his shares in the end so So I managed to escape that.

12:54But for the time he was... You're supposed to listen to this. Yeah. But what a lesson to learn. Yes, yeah. So bear in mind at the time, I know I almost viewed him as like a father figure for a while, like this mentor. And it was just all a big, big scam. There are snakes in the grass, right? There are. There are people out there that say they are something and they're not. But you've learned that and you've survived. Yeah. You've got your coat on. And actually, I love the fact that when you introduced yourself, and anyone might have sort of thought well he started the business and he sold it he's done very well you've got war stories and that makes you pretty formidable entrepreneur moving forward what's the business that you're you're in now i'm obviously spending quite a lot of time um on social media educating people about personal brands i'm kind of doing that just a because i enjoy it and i want to teach people that this is such an incredibly powerful way to make money is to basically brand yourself.

13:48So for instance, when you're starting a company, you've got two choices. Either you create a brand for that company, you're called a corporate brand, or you use yourself as the brand. So when I did Outplayed, I was the brand. It was me sharing my experiences, sharing my stories on camera. All the emails were sent from Sam. And so what happens when you do this is people, A, trust you more than they trust a company. People want to buy from other people. Your stories, people find interesting and they kind of relate to you because they hear your stories and when you can then tie it back to how it's going to help them that makes them much more likely they're going to buy from you as a result of that whereas if you're trying to create a brand and you don't have those stories it's much harder to convince people to buy so it's a very very effective way to i suppose grow and monetize any any business um so that's that's one thing i'm doing and then in the background building a basically a shopify for subscriptions so a platform to enable you to launch your own subscription business, which is what I was doing before.

14:46And then I'm also doing a co-working space, like a luxury co-working space, like a WeWork thing up in Nottingham, which is a renovation project that's going on right now. So something you can scale? Yes, that's the idea. So template, yeah. Exactly. And then replicate. Doing a test one. Exactly. On the personal brand, two words there, trust and storytelling. Two words, one word but trust in storytelling so i love the fact that you have understood so early in the sort of what is a i say early but in that entrepreneurial side of things that people buy people yes so we can talk about richard branson and we instantly know who he is but then maybe virgin comes second yes for sure well interestingly he's got way more followers than virgin house on social media because he was a personal brand like it was all about him in his hot air balloons and or you know his daring feats and all the other things go back to storytelling right sure yeah Yeah.

15:39And is that the same for Musk and Tesla? Yeah, for sure. And he's got a huge, huge cult of personality around him. He can write a tweet and tank Bitcoin. You know, the impact of his brand is huge. So personal brand is not a new thing, right? You know, there's countless people. You mentioned David Beckham. You know, what a personal brand. But of course, born out of what was football and then other things he's done. why is it now I feel like that's been talked about a lot more and that sort of is almost like the realization it's quite important yeah well I think it is a realization thing because I I didn't even realize that what I was doing was a personal brand like you know when I think back to it now it's obvious that that's what I was doing but for me it was just I'm here I can pick up a camera and I can tell my story and therefore that that makes sense but we it it make you it makes it easier to create almost like a cult following because you're on almost like a shared journey with the customers like it was us beating the bookies together um you know or making money together and you created this kind of community effect which was really powerful for growth because everyone was excited to share it with their friends and then it just compounds from from thereafter but why why it's suddenly become more mainstream i'm not sure if it's social media changing and just more general awareness of how people are doing it.

17:00People like Alex Hormozzi, Gary Vee, pushing it as well. Combination of things. Yeah. Is there an element, and I'd love to open this up with you actually, about what makes someone grow their personal brand well, if you like, and that authentic piece? Yes. And to open that up more, I feel like the people I gravitate to, and you're doing it right now actually, is they share the good things, but they share the bad things as well for sure and um they're more than happy to do that without any kind of sugar coating and so on so if you fail at something you put your hands up and so on and you might say why and explain and so on is that is that something you can relate to i think it's really really important i think a really good example of this is tom holland so he has a alcohol free beer brand called bureau and the way he's that's just actually they've just raised a hundred million valuation on that and the way he's promoted that is by going on podcasts and very vulnerably sharing his uh struggle with alcohol and his journey to sobriety and being very open and just telling everyone about how it's affected his life and so you're watching that thinking the challenge for him is how do you take a mass group of people that love him for being spider-man and make him care about beer or alcohol-free beer and it's the storytelling that does it because you're listening to him you empathize with him you're kind of being taken on that journey with much like you would if you watched a Netflix show.

18:23So you're taken on the journey. But then if you're someone that in any way relates to that, maybe you drink a bit too often or you just think, oh God, I wish I could drink less. It is impacting my life. You're much more likely to be drawn to, oh, this product could be the solution to that problem for me, much like it was for Tom. And so because you've both gone on the same journey, you're now much more likely to buy his products as a result because he's been vulnerable. What I like about that as well is that's using social media as a force for good. It can be used and you're doing that as well, right?

18:51So there's the negative side of social media, which is that addictive algorithm that consumes you. And, you know, there's a whole separate conversation there. But the point being, if you're putting out good content and you're putting out information that people can learn from, people can find a product that actually they can relate to the person behind it, if you like, the stories behind it. For sure. You've got an example where it's been done really badly. Andrew Taylor? Okay, let me... So let me challenge you on that. I can't believe I'm saying this, but he's... He's had so many eyeballs on him.

19:25Yeah. So do you get where I'm going with it? So someone told me that someone said that almost 80 % of perhaps what he says is actually right. It's the 20 % that's just like, what? Yeah, yeah. That's going into 100 % of the algorithm to particularly young lads that then... That's exactly it. Yeah. And I remember when he first came on the scene and like you'd there'd be a few posts and i'd be like what an idiot and then you'd see one and you'd be like oh actually that makes sense and you kind of find yourself agreeing with that but i think it's it's one of those things where controversy you know if you if you make a when you have people following you if you have an opinion that they hold that they're too scared to say they're gonna like you as a result of being being the voice that they're too scared to have which he's done very well but just perhaps taken to such an extreme level and created almost you know a bit of a misogyny violence against women you know incels and all of that you know it's just been taken to such an extreme that it's ended up definitely not a force for good i totally get that so with that sort of line of um big muscles Lamborghini behind beautiful view of Dubai Marina kind of thing I am successful as well I'm this is the image I'm now portraying yeah where do you sit with that and the reason why I ask is is to British people that have almost learned to not you don't shout about your success you don't shout about but if you take the kind of the US scenario it's almost like you pull up in the petrol station in your Ferrari people come over and congratulate you hey well done man you get spat at in petrol station in England so to correlate that to social media it feels there's a fine line about being able to want to shout about success and portray it and get brought down and then have the opposite where it's actually like hey i want to be like you and that that is where andrew tate has sat a few times these these particularly influential uh kids looking at his what he's doing so i want to be like him and then start following what he's saying when i first started doing well you know the first thing you go out and you buy a ferrari and you buy a lambo and i've i've done all of that that phase of my life because at the start you kind of want everyone to look at you you know you want everyone to see that you've been successful but then i think very quickly that changes to actually money talks wealth whispers you know let's love that be a bit more understated they use it as a tool to to to get views i don't think there's something anything inherently wrong with that if he likes the flashy lifestyle fine you know let him let them have their cars it is a way to get to get attention i think you do get the thing now of kind of rented lambos and they're not they know they haven't really been successful and they're selling a course on how to be successful and it's it's all just very disingenuous at that point but it just goes back to authenticity again and generally speaking when that happens people start to see through it eventually it's not something you can keep up for very long if it's not reality it's shallow right yeah so relating that to you you have had a big exit you're clearly busy again with multiple business interests but that purpose piece which i'm going to flip to the word happiness what is your purpose what makes you happy i'd want to be a billionaire one day but the reason to be a billionaire is so that you can make impact in the world and you know perhaps slightly delusionally you know have a company like spacex that can go and you know explore the universe or uh that can help people live longer or you know i'd love to be able to impact the world in a memorable way whether i'll get there i don't know but i like to think i can so i could feel that.

22:54I can feel that. So, this is bigger than you. This whole journey is bigger than you. So, you're... Again, your intro, where, you know, sold a business, 10 million, it's like it's a stepping stone. And it's a stepping stone to actually going back to giving back. So, what would you... You mentioned SpaceX, and have you got that? Because there's... I feel there's a vision element to you. You may not have mapped it out, but is there something you would like to affect change? I hate that there is still child poverty in the UK. I think it's absolutely insane that we are as a first world country those children are still hungry so that bothers me immensely but you need immense resources to be able to do anything about these kinds of things so acquiring resources is a way to do that.

23:39That's one thing and then so more grandiosely I'd like to find a way to help people live longer because I enjoy being alive and And I think I don't accept the idea that we should all kind of have our time and then that's it. And I think people like Brian Johnson right now that are looking into how people can live longer, I think that's great. That's fascinating. Yeah. I couldn't do it. Oh, really? I couldn't do what he does. Oh, right. I wouldn't want to. Because actually, and I'll bring this back to you actually, but I know the discipline that that takes and for anyone watching this thing there the whole kind of way he uses the blood and the diet and the exercise he's basically a human testing lab yes yeah which i get that we're talking about him it makes him super relevant and we'll we'll learn from him but you love life you love living life um you got a lot of a lot of time and effort into businesses what do you do to enjoy your personal time holidays with my family there's you know going and which would just been to the maldives with my my two sons and just swimming with them and playing with the pool and just cycling around just just enjoying time with the family i used to i used to game which is why i used to stream on twitch so that used to be my hobby but i don't have time for that anymore no and there's there's an element um of it's almost a stigma isn't it to be successful you've got to work every hour of the day getting up at four in the morning got to run a marathon read a book meditate before nine o 'clock and then take the kids to school would think why did you sit with that because rubbish it the the only requirement is that you are you do have to have you you do have to work a lot like you have to be obsessed with what you're doing so whatever your particular goal is it has to be your north star it has to be the thing you think about when you wake up in the morning and the thing you think about when you go to sleep as your most important thing you don't have to meditate you don't have to wake up at five it's fine if you wake up at 10 and you stay up till you know you stay up later all of that is is just rubbish the only thing that matters is that you are dedicated above everything else that's it so there's no morning routine for you no i mean i i have a morning routine it's wake up get in the shower and get down to my desk as quickly as possible that's that's my head flow but you look fit so where's that fitting in where's the exercise coming from yeah that's that's only been the last couple of years that's i've always i have always neglected my health but i've found especially as i sort of get into my 30s you i kind of need to take a moment out like if half of the day when my focus starts to fade just taking an hour out actually helps me be more productive like going up for a run for an hour or lifting weights or whatever it is afterwards i come back and i'm feeling more refreshed and i'm realizing actually what i saw before as an inconvenience actually helps me in many ways that's interesting so because at any one time you've probably been quite a workaholic oh yeah and therefore i'm not going to make time fix those but the self-awareness piece is that you've worked out that maybe the walk the run the fresh air has been better for productivity and good for you 100 % fair play yeah yeah where are you with AI and I want to ask you that in we've covered that sort of piece of authenticity so this this goes back to the personal brand but go on Instagram is that real and then how you're working with it in business I have a big position in Nvidia so I see the long term of AI I hate AI for content I hate seeing AI videos.

26:56I hate the fact that I can spot a post that's written with AI a mile off. And in fact, I was on a call the other day and someone was pitching to me and how they've done all this research. And I was like, it's just ChatGPT. I can see it's ChatGPT. Why are you trying to convince me you've done all this research when you haven't? I think what AI does is produce a lot of really low quality content. And I think it's painfully obvious. And if perhaps it's not obvious to everyone yet, it's going to become increasingly obvious the more it's churned out. AI is a really good tool for research for brainstorming for kind of uh analytical or administrative work i think it's terrible for creativity so i don't like it as a tool for creators that's brilliant i'm starting to realize that i've got a more of a radar for for i think it's because it's popping up in so much now isn't it and of course there's telltale signs when there's the long hyphen yeah so on but there's also just this element of well it's also it's also ruining uh sort of language in a way so you know there's something called contrast framing which ai does all the time which is it isn't this it's this he didn't do this he did this and that's a normal sort of linguistic tool that you see in tv and everywhere but because ai does it every single response your brain automatically thinks it's ai when you see it now and so it's kind of ruined it as a kind of mechanism of writing so um yeah it's got more than just a bit of an impact yeah sitting here now i would very easily be able to call you successful lots of things you've done have been successful what is your definition of success personal fulfillment what are you happy are you are you can you look back and think i'm happy with the way i spent my time my limited 28 000 days on this earth did i do what I wanted to do.

28:43I love that. So I had a big pivot. You're asking me how long I've been doing this in around three years. I lost all fulfillment for what I was doing. So, and actually what was really sad about that is that it was in an entrepreneurial environment. So I had started something I had enjoyed and then it was property development on a big scale. So planning, legislation, just, and lots of external factors. So fulfillment is such a good word. So you're You're waking up every day looking forward to what you're doing. Not every day. Okay. But you get my point. But there's a focus and a steer. I mean, we covered the fact that it's bigger than you, but yeah.

29:21It looks back to what we were saying at the start. Like, you know when you hear like celebrities, you know, singers that have, you know, they've committed suicide or they're depressed or whatever. And I think it's because they've inherited, you know, they've achieved a load of success early on. They've achieved, made a load of money, but they have, they don't like, what do I do next? They don't have a goal. I think you have to have a goal to be happy. I love that. Got a lovely articulation. I'm conscious of time. So I want to bring it back to personal brand because you're spending so much time.

29:50I just want to ask you what your definition of personal brand is. Your personal brand is what people think of when they hear your name. It is what you are known for. So you can have a personal brand with no public social media at all. Or you could have a million followers and have no personal brand if it's just memes and trends. and and it's not just for business owners or or influencers there was someone I used to follow on TikTok and she did content about Facebook ads and when it came for me to hire an agency to run Facebook ads for my company she first came into my mind she didn't even own the agency she was just an employee but because she demonstrated so much expertise I'm immediately going to use her agency because I assume that they've hired her for a reason so even for employees it massively benefits you to have a personal brand because it is the way people are going to start a hiring companies but also be hiring employees in the future if you have a public profile and i'm looking to hire you're going to be the first person i'll try and reach out to and therefore you can get more pay so this goes back to what we were saying about trust and storytelling you're constantly writing your story right and therefore whether that's walking into the studio and greeting people, thanking people as you leave.

31:11You know, this is a trail, isn't it? This isn't just what you put out. It's another word for reputation. Yes. That's what I first... Why have I heard that before? That's it, isn't it? Because, so, like, the polished element of this, let's just say it was me, because it's clearly not going to be you, that then when I leave this room, and for whatever reason, people say, oh, he's completely different off-camera to on-camera, which you hear, don't you? It's quite sad to hear, especially when it's someone that you perhaps, you know, thought better off. Yes. That's not good personal brand, right? No, exactly.

31:43And that gets around. Yes. I think that's a really important message, isn't it? Because how we show up, there's a saying for it, how you show up out of view. I hadn't related that specifically, so you've crystallized that. You're super interesting to talk to. We don't have to do this again. I'm conscious we're out of time. Yeah. I've learned. I knew I would. I said to you, I'm going to learn loads talking to you. I hope you've enjoyed it. It's been lovely. It's been great. I enjoyed it. So thank you. Thanks so much.