Hannah Viney | Extraordinary Life Stories

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1:27A version of you previously masked and dragged yourself through some tough times. Give some context on that. When I first took it, I was like, this can't be bad for people. This is making me feel like a normal person. So I didn't even know my brain was different, but I knew that it was heavenly. Diagnosed of ADHD in 2020? Yes. RSD, the masking, that fear of judgement, and rightly so from all the teasing and the bullying you'd gone through to, well I'm not having it happen again, so putting it out there. People ask me, well how do you get, where's the free dopamine then, what's the thing, and it's like, it's so much more so important than this big fat answer that you're trying to get, and it's all free.

2:06Hannah Viney. Hello. Finally. Finally. I've been so looking forward to this. When we had our first call and we teed this up, you said, oh my God, at the end of the call, you said, we're going to have to... Anyone that listens or watches this on times two has got to send it right back to normal. They won't be able to keep up. One of the things people always say to me is like, oh, I love... As a neurodivergent person, I like listening to you because you speak at a rate of knots. Sometimes when I'm doing these, I think to myself, right, slow it down. And then I think, no. No. Keep up. No. Well, we're looking at the vibe of each other now.

2:37Now, tell me, who is Hannah Vyney? Now, now I am somebody who cares deeply for just normal people. I think that's where I probably, that's why North Star. That's lovely. And somebody who thrives off honesty. I've gone through the last year and a half of kind of dipping in and out of what is my, you know, what's the thing that really gets me going, gets me ticking. And it all comes back to that word. lots of people it will be motivation or consistency or I don't know but for me none of those things are possible until start with being honest and that starts with being honest with yourself yeah which is a lot of ways you're coming from because a version of you previously is masked and and dragged yourself through some some tough times give some context on that where do you want me to start I mean it's a very similar story to a lot of people and when I was doing the Class A People podcast, that really highlights it to me, like how similar lots of people's stories are who have struggled with either being neurodivergent or having substance misuse issues.

3:53And my story's not really that much different. I had a tough time at school but what happened was I was severely bullied physically and mentally and I joined that school and I joined late which is I mean it's just like recipe for disaster if you're not already integrated and when I got to go when I was applying to secondary schools, if you think about the child version of me, that's sort of 7 to 13. So what I'm learning, what I'm processing is that if you're horrible, if you're unkind, then you're either going to be popular or at least you're not going to get teased. So I never went into that secondary school being unkind, but I went into it very guarded and very, I would say it would come across to other people as maybe judgmental.

4:53So your shields were up. Yeah, big time. And that set the tone for me for 13 to 18. That reputation. I mean, listen, I didn't help myself. I was really naughty as well. I went to a boarding school, which for me anyway was a bit weird because my parents are polar opposites so my dad had come from my dad had also gone to boarding school whereas my mum grew up in Cornwall um so they had very different outbriggings so in turn I suppose I had kind of I kind of got both ends of the spectrum of different types of upbringing and at a boarding school predominantly a lot of people there have had most commonly generational wealth shall we say not not kind of you know money that's been passed on um and i'd come from that sort of bracket um and i i hated it i was a real home home bird i loved being at home i think it was from from memory it was like one of my parents biggest sort of to date kind of conflicts when it came to that my mum just didn't get it you know I didn't understand why you'd have children sending them away, whereas my dad has kind of seen, I think, the positive sides to it, which interestingly turns out that he had a pretty crap time, it turns out.

6:18I was naughty. I would do things to either be sent home because I wanted to go home so badly or just because I just didn't like the structure of it. I'd hated the fact I had to wear a uniform, things like that. And that, in a school setting, you're deemed as naughty. And I only really liked creative subjects, but the only thing I ever got any type of good result in was drama, the drama practical, where I was playing, ironically, an alcoholic aunt, which as we come further on into my story is quite fitting, but I got 100 % of that. and the drama teacher and the classical civilisation teacher were arguing over me and whether I was going to do their subject for A-level.

7:07And I didn't do drama because I was so terrified about what people would think about me. I didn't think it was cool, like I thought I was going to get teased, it was going to set me up to fail and I had such bad stage fright. And I look back on those sort of times as a now adult and think I feel quite sorry for that version of myself because that's a trait I've carried my whole life is keeping myself small. When I moved into this kind of rebel party girl, I took it to the nth degree but I was so one-dimensional and now with the hindsight I look back on it and I just say my god I thought my life was so full and I thought that was the best thing to be doing with my life and it was just so unfulfilling it was so unfulfilling you knew what you knew right exactly and this is the hindsight thing yeah for context um diagnosed with ADHD in 2020 yes so nearly six years ago and so RSD the masking yeah you know you know that fear of judgment And rightly so from all the teasing and the bullying you'd gone through to, right, I'm not having it happen again.

8:21So putting it out there, again, you only know what you know. I think when I found partying and I found drinking and I found dancing and I found music and I found all of that, I had a taste of finding myself. Although that's all kind of like then being taken to an extreme, when you've never had that as a kid it was like this is what people named me for and i'm really good at it and and and hosting and you know drinking and partying and organizing all the raving and organizing where we're going and buying the tickets and it was like well i found my family place now you came alive then if you think about the constraints of boarding school you're trapped oh i snuck out we snuck out me and my best friend snuck out you mentioned organizing you know yeah you know gathering people you then you're free of the shackles if you like you can bring people together Looking at what I'm doing now and seeing how that's transpired throughout my journey of my life so far, that's where it starts.

9:18Then when I was on sort of benders, if you like, when I was staying up late for three days at the time, I was never doing anything but sitting with one other person talking about life, trying to fix their problems. trying to like you know people would just sit and come and talk to me and we would have these really deep meaningful conversations um and i i and i loved it and i thought i could only really do that with the aid of either drugs or alcohol so a lot of what you said that's really interesting because that's going to come back to helping people and people that are watching listeners that know you that remember those conversations and now so many people that get to interact with if you like through social media where you're helping them but the the party part the the the drinks the music that all and the drugs that all sounds at that in that moment that's fun times and that's how it started for you to then not be fun times just tell me where there was a moment where you realized that this wasn't fun anymore and you were effectively addicted before that this is with hindsight i didn't know any of this at the time but through now through through looking back before that, there was definitely, before I became, well to say I became an addict, there was this insatiable need to be loved and to be wanted and I was and still am, I'm very generous so when it came to buying drugs, when it came to getting booze, when it came to organising tickets, festivals, whatever, but with that came actually what was happening as I was being used by quite a lot of people but I think that was definitely there as an additional addiction, I suppose, because that acceptance, although falsified...

11:00There's a dopamine hit for that, right? Yeah, but it... and it's sad, really, because I was being... I was being used, and I think... I think even at the time, I didn't know it, but I kind of didn't care because I look like I've got friends and... It's who you were at the time as well. Yeah, and actually, whatever, this is way better than what it's been in the past, so I'm just going to keep on with it. But when did that tip? So at that point, you're in the moment and so on. Was there a moment where you ultimately had the realization that this wasn't fun anymore and you were almost trapped again, but in a very different way?

11:35They call it in recovery like a drug of choice. And I definitely had one of those. I mean, I've pretty much done all of them apart from crack and heroin. And alongside that was some prescription stuff. And And for me, alcohol and cocaine were just a match made in heaven. I mean, when I first started doing coke, I mean, straight off the bat, I was a fiend for it. My appetite for it was so much bigger than other people's. Not in an arrogant way, just like, and not in a competitive way. Like, I would see, like, some guys who I would maybe be doing drugs with and they'd be like... Do you know what I mean?

12:15And it wasn't... I never... You're all in though, aren't you? You are. Yeah, it's actually an ADHD thing I now understand. So it's like, for me, I didn't see it. When I first started, when I first took it, I was like, this can't be bad for people because this is making me feel like a normal person. And I would look around and be thinking, everyone is very animated. Everyone is very up. And I was just like this, zoned in with one person, having this one conversation, no distraction. I'd be in a room full of people who were all on gear. chat chat and i'd just be there with this one person and my brain was quiet for the first time ever but i didn't even know i had adhd at this point but i was like so i didn't even know my brain was different but i knew that it was heavenly and that was why i could do so much of it because i i wasn't going up up up up up i was just leveling out this is fascinating to me i've said this to you in all the conversations we've had before before this that you articulate things in a way that I learn from so much.

13:17I'm three months into being diagnosed myself with ADHD. So you've helped me masses there. And then I've been able to meet so many people, including as recent as two nights ago, the Great British Entrepreneur Awards, where there were... Where was my invite? 1 ,350 people in that room. You should be there. You must be there next one, yeah. It's not my invite, by the way, but you should be there. Let's see if we can make that happen. And I mean it. But three or four people know what I'm doing separately to try and raise awareness around ADHD, which you are doing absolutely, you know, a massive job.

13:49But interestingly on that, I've only just started doing it. So it's taken me a year and a half into making content to be brave enough to start talking about it, which people find really interesting because a lot of people would think that you would find it harder to talk about being a drug addict. And that's just not the case for me. For me, I had to really take a long time to come to terms with ADHD. do and have this sort of moment where it was so made so much sense to me why I fell into substance misuse but the way that I recovered from drugs and alcohol was through a 12-step program I will never ever shame the thing that helped me get sober because I think it's an amazing thing and I think it's it's it was my a and e of my recovery but in my opinion there is a there is a big difference between a neurotypical addict who is taking drugs and drinking to self-harm and a neurodivergent addict who is taking drugs and drinking to self-medicate.

14:51There is a huge difference in that. And when a neurodivergent person understands that that is why they're doing it and that they're wired differently, you probably don't need to go to meeting every single night to talk about drug addiction because you've finally got this dopamine hit of understanding who you are and then you found something that you're passionate about and then you've got this and you've all of a sudden you're free from it because you you understand yourself but when i first got diagnosed in 2020 i mean i honestly associated i had no sympathy for it i would i would flick through social media and just think oh my god these people shut the fuck honestly get a grip people have been to war yeah what do you mean you can't forget you what do you you forget your keys and i and i did associate with it and i did see myself in it but i couldn't sympathize with it and that's because a meme and i love them that it's not going to teach you about a neurological condition i mean this is your content we must come to that now but just on that you know the the difference between someone self-harming and self-medicating is exactly what i was just going to say about the uh people that came up to me and said for years i coped in a corporate professional environment by taking cocaine and they're there in in in full suit or beautiful dress and they are successful people that have got through that or and actually some of them were admitting over a drink at the bar at midnight kind of thing that they still are that's their only way of coping cocaine's conniving like that because it's the expensive one right so and it's the one in the movies that is glamorized and so you do you you you associate it with success especially men I would say, you know, men who are trading or in finance, 100%.

16:40You've got the films like, you know, Matthew McConaughey beating the chest and it has this insipid way of sort of... And I was watching... What series was it? I was watching a series, I can't remember it now, but they, you know, they were all up until 6am and then they were showered in the office the next day. I mean, I used to do that. And that is not what it looks like. Billions, there's suits, these are all big popular. I was going to the disabled toilet, setting a timer on my phone and taking like incremental naps to get through the day. But that's coming back to what you're saying about when did it become an addiction.

17:21I mean, I had a real insatiable appetite for it. I mean, it's a very addictive thing anyway. There aren't many people out there, neurodivergent or not, that can do a line and leave it or do a gram and leave it. It's a very, you know, it's a very more-ish drug as drugs go. And the problem that I fell into was the association between alcohol and cocaine. So I built my brain, built a marital affair between the two. So So every time I was to drink, my brain would crave because I always did them together. And the other thing is that once you've done something that's above alcohol, the alcohol just becomes the gateway.

18:03It's like, oh, and also I don't want to be too pissed because I don't want to be falling over. And I just know that I can quickly get that thing and it's going to sober me up. And then I'm going to be chatty and I'm going to be normal. And, you know, it was so quick for me. I mean, I remember maybe when I first moved to London at 19 and I remember trying it for the first time from somebody else. And I think maybe a month later I had I had a dealer on my phone and, you know, then I was buying my own. And it is progressive like that. You know, it's it's for some people it's slower, but it doesn't really matter.

18:33It kind of all starts the same way. Try it from somebody else. Then you're then you're ordering your own, you know, then the nights are finishing at 3 a.m. Then they're finishing at 6. Then you're rolling through to day two. Then you're cancelling work. Then you're you know what I mean? and then the next thing you know... This is unsustainable, right? I mean, you're literally... You're climbing a ladder, you're going to fall off at some point. And I know that you... When ADHD plays into that, it's like the ability in a panic situation to mask and lie, because I've been taking drugs for 10 years pretty solidly, and the excuses I could come up with not being at work or you and those are the things that when you go into recovery that you kind of have those sort of flashbacks and things and I still get those now of just but that's perspective now and that's maturity that's important to have that and going back to how you introduce yourself honesty like just the the honesty pouring out you just relating and I can see your eyes go back you take yourself back there which is why it's so real to now having what is such a loyal uh following on socials you're a very important person to a lot of people you know i can i feel that when i see your content pop up i can imagine there's a lot of people that like if hannah's posted again and i need to watch this and learn from it do you get an outpouring of um feedback if you like from people that are following you and saying you're helping me because you're putting out such raw unfiltered content even to the point where your actual content sometimes has um bits where you've fluffed the words up and so on the bit of me would be like oh i'd have refilmed that no you just you just you you go straight through and it comes out yeah no i do i mean i do i it's it's something that obviously i never knew that i could do but i am a one i'm a one take girl do you know what i mean that was why but you know why because i can't for somebody who's had a top charting podcast i did the whole thing from a ThinkPad laptop, which people find hilarious.

20:36I've never used like CapCut, all these programs. My brain just goes, which is exhausting by the way, because you end up doing it your own way, but it's probably the hardest, longest route possible. And there's a perfectionism element in there on that bit, because you want that to represent the best you can. It's definitely evolved my videos. I look back on some of my first forever videos. I mean, my first TikTok video did 240 ,000 or something ridiculous like that. And I remember I was house sitting for, I was three months into recovery and I was house sitting for somebody who's in AA with me and I'd wanted to do social media when I had my interior design business but I was in a relationship with somebody who was very controlling.

21:18So I didn't and I remember having this moment where I was like, I don't have a business anymore. I've spectacularly run that into the ground. My parents know that I'm in recovery. I mean, bless them. They didn't know half of the stuff that came out. I mean, I didn't tell them about the TikTok. I didn't tell anybody about it. And when it got to 10 ,000 followers, I said to myself, I thought, someone's going to tell them. Someone's going to tell them if I don't. Yeah. And they were away on holiday and they had actually found out through a friend's son. So she did already know, but she actually didn't say anything because she didn't want me to, she wants to change how I was I think she could see how much it was helping me.

21:58I love that. I love the fact you said that, because I was going to ask you if the outpouring that's helped so many people was almost like kind of self-therapy to yourself. Because you ultimately, there's a lot to be said for letting things out, and you are actually outpouring how you feel and why is this, I've learnt this and this has helped me and so on, but that's also you having some therapy. I think what I do find quite hard as someone who's quite a people pleaser is that in the early stages when it was just 10 ,000 followers, I could get pretty much. And I was just in recovery. You know, all I was doing was getting well and going to two meetings a day and maybe doing a TikTok video.

22:35So I had time. I did 100 ,000 followers in under a year, which is nuts. And there's over 10 ,000 sat in my TikTok thing. And then I took time before I integrated into Instagram because for me, I had an unhealthy relationship with Instagram when I was an active addiction. Is that from a comparison point of view? Oh God, just like, you know, if I didn't have a certain amount of likes or if I got really obsessed with it, it makes me cringe thinking back to it. But what's fascinating again with hindsight is that since I've done this journey with social media, if a video gets two likes or a million i'm not it i've never okay the first sorry the first time i went viral obviously that was a dopamine hit and i was like oh my god this is nuts and but this is the thing it's the same as anything that's cheap and quick and easy a line of coke a drink um gambling sex porn all of these things of sugar binge eating it's it's that immediate hit and then you feel shame and and because it has no longevity none of them do and it's the same it's the same as going viral it's like oh my god it's amazing the first time the thing with having adhd is you get bored of things very quickly as well so you know the second third fourth time i was just like oh it's happening again and and i kind of hate that about the adhd brain a little bit because but then it's like well what do you put value on i don't really put value on that but on that so like that getting bored quickly i totally relate to that and you know how many chats we've had prior to today where again and vibing off each other and like I feel like that and so on but what's the underlying purpose here because you haven't got you know it doesn't feel like there's any part of you that's getting bored of the fact that you're putting out content that's helping people and you're learning at the same time.

24:22Oh no I did so I went through a phase um I went through phase after I did the podcast so I did seven months um making that podcast totally by myself apart from at the very end where I managed to employ a videographer but even then that was that was 1700 pounds a month and my TikTok was only just yeah I was just about making maybe 1200 but that's with that's with all just posting four videos a day it's not sustainable plus doing this podcast which was that now you know the BBC were calling me ITV were having on it and you know it was like it was big but because I was doing it all away from I suppose London I was just in my bedroom and then it was in my old interior design office you know and it and it was me doing it so it was no kind of fluff but i think i didn't realize the impact it was having i didn't until i went to london for the first time and the first two tubes that i got on people were coming up to me and i thought what have i done because 18 year old me would have absolutely lapped that up i would have been thinking this is great 31 year old me no thank you again so interesting to all these No, thank you.

25:34Not because I don't want to speak to them, I do, but more the attention is like, I've been told my whole life that I'm extra, but oh, she's loud. Oh God, yeah, she'll fill a room. I'm, you know, my socializing and how I socialize now, lack of socializing is very different because... I want to come to it because you have the social... I just want to say it because I feel like I didn't answer your question about the, do I get anything from people messaging me? Purpose as well. I've almost like where, because the one thing that's constant is that purpose. I just wonder where that changes. That's my point.

26:07There are, when you start to get the same message, this is like what I'm saying about going viral, how many times you go viral or whatever it is, and then the sort of enjoyment of it wears off. And I'm not saying that that's happened, but obviously when it goes from a few messages to thousands, really it becomes the ones that stand out. And I definitely have had ones where they've really affected me. I had a guy called Lee who runs a prison and he messaged me to say, could we, would you mind signing a copy of the Class A People artwork, I think it was, of the podcast so that we could give it out as a raffle prize because we actually show your episodes and your videos to the inmates here at the prison.

26:59And I was just like, that's the sort of thing for me. That's impact. Yeah, because at the end of the day,

27:12some people maybe don't have phones or underprivileged people who can't access that content. That makes me so proud that Lee has taken that initiative and done that. and it was interesting because somebody said when I was talking about that someone commented saying oh they should be paying you for that and I think no no no but on your point of kind of you know it's not been an easy journey because when when I start to realize that I've done this blinkered seven month podcast 37 episodes all that time no money not paid nothing the whole thing for free, couldn't get a sponsor within an inch of my life.

27:53And I didn't have time to try and get one because I was... Me, you, yourself and I. And my mum just said to me, she sat me down. It was four o 'clock in the morning, I was editing this video. And it's an amazing thrill that because the pressure of knowing that 15 ,000 people are listening to something every single week, I will get a kick out of that. And I will, you know, that's a lot of pressure. And she just came at four o 'clock in the morning and was like... And I'm so blinkered that I'm not ever once thinking about money and it'll take one person to take me out of it and be like, you're going to have to either try and find a way to make this sustainable or you're going to...

28:31And I was like... And then all of a sudden, the narrative in my brain has switched and I'm resentful. That's when I've got to check back in with myself. And interestingly, in that period of time, I'm getting messages from people who are asking for help and all of a sudden I'm like, everyone Everyone wants something from me. No one's helping me. Me, me, me, me. And that's when I have to click back into 12 Steps, when I click back into my... No one's asked you to make that podcast, Heather. No one asked you to do it. No one's holding a gun to your head, but the people pleaser of me, and then the injustice of the ADHD comes in, and I'm like...

29:07And I'm looking at other... I'm on a social media, and I'm looking at other people's podcasts, and I'm going, that's shit. That's not good. No one's helping me. Woe is me. bitterness judgment resentment i'm sat in my parents's house i can't i can move out i can't do i've got no money stab my feet and that again that's the growth you know like you have to i've lived through knowing you through that poop you have i know and i found that i found that really interesting because i've got an element of um parallel to that which i can really really resonates um the social element that that you know the that impact you made and are making to people that dare I say how many of those uh inmates and you know people in prison are neurodivergent right it's a conversation on its own which I've had elsewhere and I know we talked about and so where you are making this positive impact and where you have big groups of people that all know who you are and feed off your off your socials but you personally so much so many times I can visualize you alone in this conversation in the bedroom till four in the morning awake editing hard work being a content creator which is effectively what you've done for so long and the elements of relationship you've just touched on where you know abusive relationships so part that and they're not finding the way you know how do you manage being alone and how do you sort of bring how do you sort of bring other people into your world from a trust point of view I haven't really let anyone else knew in um I you know that when you go on it doesn't matter if you are neurodivergent, whether you have issues with substance misuse.

30:43We're living in a world that is, we were never made, we were, human beings never made to have this much level of inverted commas connection. I get, my brain gets very loud with, and it's paradoxical, which is exactly the same as the ADHD brain. I've learned more through social media from, from listening to people who are telling my story and I'm like, oh my God, that's so helpful. That's so great. I've been on the wrong side of social media algorithms, but even if you're on the right side and, you know, my algorithms are very healthy, bar a few drug memes which I can now find funny and I do associate with them.

31:20But like, even if you've got the healthiest algorithm in the world, it's not healthy. It's not healthy to be this disconnected. And I'm... It wasn't until I got sober that I experienced like, people ask me, well, how do you get... How it was the free day for me then what's the thing and it's like it's it's so much simpler than so much more simple Than this big fat answer that you're trying to get It's it is literally about those hierarchy of needs it is it is it is and it's all free breathing water nutrition Exercise not exercise to look good not exercise because you hate it walking walking without anything in your ears don't listen to a podcast because it's like this it's like this kind of underbelly of wellness and it's actually you can have too much wellness you know what I mean there's you to be alone with your own thoughts in nature preferably is not a bad thing.

32:31My most... My favourite part of every day is walking my dog, rain or shine. I really got to know you well through what was the summer, and for the context of filming, going into December now. And if I ever went on my socials, it was often you on my stories with the most beautiful shot of a field, dog playing, sunshine, and positioning in a way of like, this is good for me. And often I'd be traipsing through London thinking, knowing that because I've done a lot that I know that's good for me. I've embraced that. You have to find what is good for you. Like, you know, my best friend lives in London, and she...

33:07that would be her idea of... but she goes to classes all the time, exercise classes all the time. She loves that. She's got class pass. That's what she does. So it's not one size fits all. And just because you resonate with a content creator, you resonate with a person, and then maybe they say something that you don't agree with. It's not suddenly like, that's it, don't like that. But, you know, you are your own person and there's no right or wrong way to be you. But you do have to take time to get there. And the problem is, as the world we live in, it's carbonara, it's mowing the lawn, as a politician, it's a fucking live genocide.

33:46We've never lived in a world of so much... It's nuts. And we're so accustomed to it. It's so normal to swipe past people being killed. You know, the child Charlie Kirk thing, no matter how much they tried to take it down, everyone's seen it, then that's nuts. That is really nuts. But no one is coming to take social media away from you. No one's coming to stop you from drinking. No one's going to get you an ADHD test. No one is coming to save you. And the quicker that you, I think, get past that, and the resentment of the reason why you can't get those things. my mum didn't love me the way that I needed her to, my dad didn't love me, my dad left us, you know these are all really tough things for people to go through, whatever it is by the way, and if it's traumatic to you it's important, it's not comparative to anyone else's trauma, but when you get to a certain age, and I'm absolutely not talking to anyone below the age of 18 here, but when you do, or even probably at 20, but when you do get to a certain age, it isn't anyone's else's fault it's your job take responsibility yeah it's your job to do that yeah and that's not gonna even even when maybe you're having therapy or maybe you have a light bulb moment in your life i know why i am the way i am or i know why i i know i know why my relationships have all failed romantically because and you and you start to piece these things together and you do have that light bulb moment don't get me wrong you're not just suddenly going to be okay yeah take that one off the list you've got to go through emotions of that you're to be angry about it, you're going to be resentful about it, you're going to be sad about it, and then you're going to go, do you know what?

35:24On a comfortable basis, I'm going to let that go. I'm going to let it go. But people want things now. Oh, I want to be over it. Oh, I want to be sober. Oh, you... And you're not going to do it with all the noise around you. No. You've got to... Very impatient world now, isn't it? Yeah, you've got to strip it back. And I would say it's any type of journey of self-discovery, unless you're with a very aligned partner, which to be honest with you, if you start any type of self-discovery journey, you're probably not. It's a one-man show for a little bit. And it's about telling yourself that that's not selfish.

36:05I struggled with that one for ages. I thought, God, I'm being really selfish. You know, boundaries, never had any of those, still really struggle with it. You're a better version of yourself now, the best version of yourself now, because you've spent time on yourself. That's personal self-development, that's growth. Which goes back to how you were talking earlier about, you know, the very different version of you, the masking, the, I guess, shallow version. That's all you knew. And that was created through survival. It was created through those shields. Interestingly, though, I did always find walking, for example.