James Haskell: Identity, Discipline, and the Courage to Start Again | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:00Particularly in the world of social media, it's actually brought the world further apart as opposed to closer because of the lack of context and you're asking people who have so many different backgrounds to conform and understand. That's why it's so aggressive. Who is James Haskell? I used to play professional sport. I played for 20 years. Now I'm probably podcaster, entrepreneur, DJ and producer and I enjoy all of it but it's all centred around performance. If you want to know James Haskell is a show-off and a performer. all the issues in business and in life if you come back to instead of blaming and we live in a world now very much pointing fingers blaming different genders different races whatever it is if you come back to what you can control you really shouldn't have enough time to point fingers at anyone else because you can go if you're unhappy with your job you know what is it you're doing to be the best at your job are you reading around the subject are you taking advice you seeking feedback if you are you looking at different ideas are you reading around that that business all comes back to the work that's you yeah and i give you 10 things that you could be worried about instead of going, oh, the government.

0:55We were training at Northampton Saints, England under 20, under 21s. We're doing a scrummaging session. I was on the side of a scrum with a prop, a guy called Matt Hampson. Scrum collapsed, Matt Hampson breaks his neck. He's created an incredible life. But that was a massive wake-up call to the finality of what you do.

1:24Who is James Haskell? Well, if you can answer that question, I'd say you'd earn a lot of money, but that would be a lie. I actually have created a life where every day I wake up being a very different person. I would say that I used to play professional sport. I played for 20 years. Now I'm probably podcaster, entrepreneur, DJ and producer. with a little asterisk caveat I do a bit of stand-up comedy do a lot of after-dinner speaking stuff around men's health so every day I wake up and I look at my diary and I'm like which James Haskell am I today so my music stuff is under Haskell so am I Haskell, am I James Haskell am I rugby, am I doing after-dinner speaking, am I doing a corporate event, so yeah it's very confusing very fun and I enjoy all of it but it's all centred around performance so if you want to know James Haskell is a show-off and a perform That's basically what it is.

2:18You thrive off that whole diversity, don't you? I can tell. If you just did one thing, you'd get bored. Yes. I think for me, one of the things we've put on my old agents I work with kind of put thriving in chaos, really. And what I learned about in retirement, and I spent a lot of time analyzing myself when I was a player through getting therapy from starting when I was 17 to now, to kind of working out what do I enjoy. and for me it's the element of performance it's storytelling it is I'm very I can be very studious but actually all the things I do are centered around that that element and I love I need to work I need I'm a workaholic I love that that drive I love a bit of stress I like a bit of chaos but there are some things that you have to anchor it through which are training you know I'm training all the time but training uh sleep eating and everything else and being a dad and then everything else is structured around that so every day i would try to tick off those boxes but then i could be speaking at a lunch event come home yeah you know to do a podcast the afternoon go and put a black tie speak at an event dj a gig in the evening go to bed wake up the next day and i'd do something different and that and i and i love that and i wouldn't i wouldn't change it the only issue with all of it is it's very reliant on me my current social standing how popular i am my ability not to get myself cancelled and also um you know that that popularity so what i've latterly tried to do is build a partner with some people to build some businesses out that can pay you while you sleep and aren't dependent on that because more passive more passive because we can we live in a you know it is also it's not soldier but it's very difficult when you are your own your own boss your own thing i don't work i don't get paid and if i and if i am not popular or palatable you then um mean that you don't get the work and it becomes a feast or famine um and that's not how i work i love i love consistency i love working and i work as hard as i possibly can but it's very hard particularly in the music industry where i where i really have a passion making music and djing is it's so intangible and it is the most disorganized uh wild industry that there's no structure no one replies to emails uh people don't come back to you people are always away traveling no one knows what they're doing really in certain aspects but the ones that really achieve like guys like mark knight who i know from tour and records who have a structure and a brilliant thrive and that's the weird thing about it you can see if you would if you put any sort of elements from your sporting career or corporate business into say for example music industry yeah you'd absolutely kill up but it's not it's an art form so art anything involving art creative creative but it's ethereal it's we're having days off we're on a calm down we're relaxing it's kind of you know we don't reply i'm on the road all you need is like that's why the ones that really achieve have got great management great agents great business and they're just coerced into doing what they do and they're absolutely clear up but that's the hardest part of the thing I do.

5:20It's the biggest passion I have. So if you could, you'd do more of it. Oh my goodness, yeah. But what's interesting is that sort of 20 years of being professional sport, there was discipline, there was structure in place. At what point through your playing days did you start thinking ahead to the fact that you're going to hang the boots up? And so the reason why I ask you is there's an identity loss there. Yes. But also the fact that you're doing so many things. Yeah. Did you start implementing them because you were almost worried that one of them might not work? Yes. So I think, yeah, well, firstly, my father played a massive element in my life.

5:49he sadly passed away last year but he he taught me some really valuable lessons early on and one of them sticks with me today which is you can lie to everyone else but you can't lie to yourself and that is a really important element because particularly in the world of social media it's actually brought the world further apart as opposed to closer because of the lack of context and you're asking people who have so many different backgrounds to conform and understand that's why it's so aggressive because there is no marrying up why would someone from a different economic background different part of the world suddenly agree with your view on something like all you have to do this tweet i like i like cow's milk and see what happens you know and just watch what the furore you know what about this uh you're killing the environment and you just go i just like milk just don't worry about it and and i'm being facetious but that principle extends to everything and i think my father always told me those those lessons very early on and was like look you know you you you can tell everyone that you're successful you can tell everyone that you're eating well you're sleeping well that you're drinking less or you're doing whatever only you know you know you can you can tell your partner you're a good partner you can do whatever but only you know and i think in the world of social media where i can have a photo next to a ferrari and tell the world it's mine i can show you beautiful holidays i can show you happiness and peace because no one shows a bad photo then you get the contrived people who midway through an argument stop set the camera up make themselves cry scream at the camera go i'm being honest i'm being authentic that's not that's the word authentic yeah lack of yeah lack of it so so that is an issue so i think those that value was really important to me um that he sort of taught me and I think one of the things because of that I was always of the mindset you know am I doing enough for my sport am I doing enough around the things that I can control and you know people talk about this a lot but actually all the issues in business and in life if you come back to instead of blaming and we live in a world now very much pointing fingers blaming different genders different races whatever it is if you come back to what you can control you really shouldn't have enough time to point fingers at anyone else because you can go if you're unhappy with your job you know what is it you're doing to be the best at your job are you reading around the subject are you taking advice you seeking feedback if you are you looking at different ideas are you reading around that that that business all comes back to the work that's you yeah and i give you 10 things that you could be worried about instead of going oh the government that's fine i'm sure they've got a role to play but i've got 30 things that you should be getting on with that will make you more successful now so when i was playing i always had a focus with that but my the reason i was so sort of dialed into doing what i was going to do after sport was because when i was 20 19 we were training at northampton saints under england the 20 on 21s we're doing a scrummaging session i was on the side of a scrum with a prop guy called matt hampson scrum collapsed matt hampson breaks his neck there he basically he was on the floor he said i can't feel my legs with the coach moved us across the other side of field we're doing line outs we look over he's getting resuscitated and the only reason that he survived was that one of the referees was a former paramedic and actually there was none of the spinal boards the fibrillators anything so if he hadn't been there that would have been the end them out so when you're 19 you see somebody that you've played with a friend and a normal training session break his neck and he's never walked again he's set up get busy living he's an amazing ambassador for for spinal injury he's created incredible life but that was a massive wake-up call to the finality of what you do so it was kind of a nice thing well not nicely but it was kind of a thing to go early wake up yeah to go listen actually this is a limited thing you're lucky to be lucky to get through it but have an idea of what you're going to do and my dad kind of encouraged me to do kind of speaking bits and we're quite entrepreneurial we set up a fitness business i wrote three fitness books uh including a cookbook we did kind of supplement business a supplement range and different elements as i was going through now my sole focus is on rugby and i took loads of criticism from old players and teammates for and coaches but having a mind to being distracted being distracted because you know particularly in this country we want our sports people to have a personality but not too much personality and we want them to do we want them when they lose to cry but very excited when they win because it because fans think that they care more about the game than than you do so if you don't look like they feel like you should look there's an issue if you're you know going out and playing rugby a bit like with henry pollock who's been signed by eddie herm very exciting people are already oh you lost your focus you know you're not playing hard enough what you're doing going to the boxing that's what i mean you and but you can do books and that's really important so i'd always took that criticism so i'd always had a mind to to kind of to look after that the thing that i because i did so many different things it was trying to find one that was kind of a real revenue stream and driver that i enjoyed now the health and fitness stuff was interesting because i wrote the books i was really into it i did my pt qualification i kind of got really involved but actually there was a point where i was like i don't want to deal with a new show that i don't want to be doing people's calories and check-ins I don't mind setting an example and talking about it, but that isn't a passion.

10:38So I kind of let that sort of slide. Now, I've always looked after myself. I have good knowledge on it. And I recommend to anybody, particularly the people that I try to mentor, is that you have health and fitness. Now, but do I want to be a PT in doing that? My ex-wife, she's amazing. They've trained probably 30 ,000 people online with her business partner. She lives and breathes it, but it's attritional. You're saying the same things to the people over and over again. That didn't float my boat. so i've sort of gone into little things that i do really enjoy which is speaking as you will get is that the afternoon speaking element of of going in and either making people laugh because that's a big driver for me or educating people and sharing stories that you know i played around the world for 20 years japan new zealand i lived in paris um i played for lions i played for england i worked with some of the best coaches some of the worst coaches some of the best environments and the worst environments so we learn from the good and the bad exactly and you're able to then impart that to people so i've ended up forging kind of a bit of a path around the things that i really enjoy but the key lesson if you see particularly with social media is have one thing be consistent deliver it consistently the reason some of the stuff that i have um can sometimes get lost is because people came to me as a rugby player now you're offering them music then you're offering them a autobiography then you're offering them a stand-up comedy talk it it kind of conflicts because people don't know what they're going to get whereas you if you want one thing and do it very well i've then tried to sort of later on go look the music and the djing stuff is a real passion that's why i've rebranded under haskell that's it's a different instagram that's it if you're not into it don't worry about it but the other stuff i've kind of now trying to really focus and cut down on so it's talking about rugby it's talking about performance it's talking about mental health it's talking about being a strong man without going into the likes of the mansphere all that stuff where for me that's just a nonsense and b um a money-making scheme wrapped up in you know ideology which is just nonsense you know i love the fact that you brought your father up earlier as an influence which in the manosphere side of things you're almost like the antidote to it there's a vulnerability you're a proper bison of a guy right and then and the the internet the self-awareness the speed your brain works out which no doubt probably made you able to make decisions on the rugby pitch quicker than anything else and now you're doing it in an entrepreneurial way.

12:55But that role model, so I'm going to call you out, it's one of the reasons I couldn't wait to speak with you today. You clearly saw your dad as a role model. And this crisis that's led to most of it, which baffles me, you, but it's real, right? It's clearly so many kids coming through that lack role models. They haven't got the father and the family, the social media algorithm points into it. What are you, because you're having conversations all the time on the pod and in your social network. What's almost the antidote to that? So again, look, there isn't one panacea that fixes this fixes all of it but i think with a goodbye rugby podcast that we do you know one of the reasons it worked very well was the chemistry between the three of us because we're sort of three white male pale and stale that wouldn't you wouldn't if you're going to build a podcast necessarily you wouldn't do that now um but we were kind of unashamedly ourselves we have opinions but it wasn't contrived it wasn't click-baity it wasn't kind of katie hopkins s inflammatory stuff to to to get people to to get involved it wasn't like the guys the manosphere who would say what maybe what they actually in person believe is very contrary to what they were putting out to get make noise yeah yeah we've never done that and i think you know if you've gone through a sporting career and look you know we weren't saving people's lives you know we haven't probably made the world a better place but we've at least come through trials tribulations hardship had a level of success reached the pinnacle in a place as opposed to waking up one day doing a series of videos gaining popularity for just being popular and saying stuff you know there's a lack I like reality TV.

14:22I think it's great. But again, a lot of these people have been put on pedestals when they were great on TV. But where's the substance? Where's the achievement? Where's the thing? What's interesting is the ones that then go on afterwards who then decide to help or build coaching businesses or fitness stuff. That in itself has a level of success. So I'm always wary about taking advice from people who haven't really lived it. Because you can, you know, I had a teammate, I won't name him, but he used to read kind of, you know, Eckhart Tolle and all these kind of other books and stuff. And you could see him, but anyone could read this stuff and repeat it.

14:52You can ask ChatGBT to come up with a quote on social media. And you see these people kind of putting these profound quotes and, you know, don't look backwards, you're not going that way. And, you know, all this kind of stuff. But you're looking at your life going, are you actually living that? Have you experienced that? Do you understand loss, failure? Have you been dragged through the papers? Have you had these hardships? Have you ever got your head kicked in? Have you been dressed down in front of your teammates? Probably not. Have you struggled? Maybe, but not with the authority to then encourage other people because you're just regurgitating stuff and his teammate would walk around, but his behavior would not marry up with any of this stuff.

15:28And you quote it and talk about it, but it doesn't sink in. So for me, self-help books and guides are only as good as if you actually implement them and actually live and breathe it. And so I've always tried to go, look, I'm flawed. I get lots of things wrong but i have gone through a period from 16 to 35 in totally different environments and have learned have grown have struggled have failed have been resilient and i built a career post rugby through the lessons i learned within those within those experiences so i'm telling you now i know point of fact from good environments this is what you can do to achieve stuff and the stuff around the madness is interesting because you know at the moment we're in a real um kind of weird period of time where you know misogyny is alive and real you see it sexism is alive and real i see it all the time i even saw it as kind of um you know as a player with a partner you know some of the the mentalities around certain sports and stuff there's there's approaches that you just wouldn't concern i've got a daughter i never want her to ever feel like there's limitations on her whatever she wants to do whatever she wants into she discovers and plays it and i think in society you want everybody to see a clear pathway to do whatever job they want to have.

16:41And people should be in those places. Now, for a long time, that wasn't the case. Pay gap, women not being on top of jobs. We're trying to balance that. But somewhere on the line, a lot of it's come down to one gender hammering another gender. Instead of going, let's celebrate differences. Difference doesn't mean better. So I'm big and strong. That doesn't mean I am any better than a woman who's not as big and strong as me. We celebrate those differences and we go forward. And I think what's happened now, because of things like words like toxic masculinity and stuff, if you are misogynist, sexist, aggressive, grabby, entitled, you are those things.

17:17That's not to do you be a man. You are those things come what may. And I think for me, somewhere along the line, it's got lost in regards to what I think a man should be, which is strong, a provider, a leader, but also vulnerable. but vulnerable in terms of owning how you are, what you think, what you feel, putting your hand up and being honest, getting around that bravado of, I'm fine, that's rubbish, just talk. But the reason I think I have some credibility is you ask me how I'm doing, I'll tell you, I'm not going to hide it. If you think I'm weak because I say, my dad's passed away or I've struggled with this or I'm going through a divorce and this is really hard or whatever, then that's on you.

17:57It doesn't affect me but i think it's important for other people to hear that because if they lots of people will look at others to see justification or inspiration when they hear someone say it so if i say i've had a nightmare i've had bad times with injuries i've felt sad i've felt lost i lost my identity when i was playing when i retired i've dealt with injuries you know badly or i've had moments where i've woken up and go what am i doing in my life that are people who can then see that and go okay that i understand that relatability Relatability. You're not saying it to wallow in it. No. You're not saying it to feel sorry for you.

18:31No. You're saying it because I've got through it. I'll go through something else and I'll keep going through it. It's a resilience piece. And I love the fact you brought up vulnerability. Yeah. And again, I think now in this world, we've got more people talking about mental health and diagnosis than anything. And I think that's an important step. But I think what everyone's missing is, particularly around mental health, talk without action is nothing. You have to match everything up with it. If you put your hand up and say, I've got depression. So for example, you've got depression. You're never not going to have depression.

19:00What you do is through therapy or whatever modality you have is only you fix you, first of all. So you have to go to therapy. You have to get the tools. You have to find the right person. It might take you a year, two years, 10 years, whatever. But at some point, you get a point where you understand what you're going through. And then the tools you get mean that if you had an episode without therapy, without treatment, without tools, it might last a week, two weeks, three weeks. Or you might never get over it. Or you might do something stupid. if you have some tools it means you might take you two days to get back on track and then suddenly you whittle it down to a day and then an hour build a coping mechanism yeah habits yeah and that's and that's what people forget now so everyone's walking around going i've got adhd i've got this and i go fine that's good what are you doing about it nothing i'm just telling everyone about it okay so when you do have an episode of anxiety depression what are you doing nothing but that is not mental health mental health is working on it constantly like if i I want to be, you know, lean up.

19:55I have to diet. I have to train. I have to be bored. I have to sleep. I have to not eat certain foods. I have to struggle. Mental health is exactly the same. If you want to feel better and if you want to work, you have to work on it. And do you know what? Someday it ain't going to work. Someday you're going to lose the battle. But then you pick your feet up. I mean, it's the same thing with like... It's the graph, isn't it? There might be little blips, but it's going in the right direction. But what people are doing is they're selling the snake oil off. Talk about it, you know, you're somehow over it.

20:22use it as an excuse so if i'm late or incompetent or scat you just go oh i'm ADHD it's like no no that it's not a blank check to be incompetent or whatever you you it is it is a a tool which you understand that explains to you why you feel the way you are and then you match it with work to change what you're trying to do to be better because the whole my whole belief is essentially we're here from birth to death we've created art music and experience and we've got a beautiful world but we're essentially just ticking off time between these these moments and you want to create a comfortable life you want to experience things you want to have a great time but we're still animals here to do this you want to make it the best possible time you can be and i believe that is a constant pursuit of being being better and it's a constant discipline discipline because that's what i'm picking up from you yeah but i just think i think it makes life if you if you realize because one of the books i read i wrote was called approach without caution one of the things we'd do was talk to people who'd be on their kind of deathbeds and were like what is the one thing that people wish for and it's never another ferrari it's never another holiday it's time i wish i had more time i wish i'd said this i wish i'd done that if you apply that to everyday life and it's not you know you dance like no one's watching always but don't live your life as if you're going to die tomorrow but you do live your life of going look you know i've got a body some bodies work better than others some minds work better than others but there is always i think something and i'm not and i'm not a mother of three kids on the doll so i can only talk about what i can experience but even in that in that essence there is something that can always be to tweak even if you're one percent better it's two percent better and if you pursue if you believe the four things you control which your body your mind how you treat other people and how hard you work if you worry about that you'd stop getting online social media and abusing other people because you wouldn't have time because you'd be thinking listen how do i how do i be a bit of better dad I think about it my daughter all the time I think you know could I complain about my daughter you know let's say I don't know she paid badly or have a moment or whatever I think what can I do today to be a better dad I can't reinvent the world I can't be the best dad in the world but maybe I could put my phone down give her more more time when she asked me to come and play maybe I'll get up and do that let's go and kick a football let's do that I've got enough things to worry about suddenly there if I think about my body and I wake up my back sore my ankle sore my neck sore I go oh rugby and then I think well what physio I got what's my diet like what's my supplementation like have I seen a physio have I seen a chiropractor have I slept well again and it's the same thing with like my business I go oh I want to be DJ around the world I want to be like Fisher I want to be like Carl Cox I want to be like these people well it's not working for me then I go how much music have I made have I practiced my DJ back to practical and that's it and actually back to graft because so much of what you're saying and I love this so much what you're saying is actually it doesn't matter what we look at on social media and social media can paint an easier picture.

23:09Ferrari in the background with the Dubai Harbor and different lifestyle. But you've got to work for it. And actually what I love is everything you're pointing at here, be a better dad, be a better businessman. The music industry's hard. It's my favorite thing to do. So I'm going to try and own it. And the speed of your brain is slight. Because we're both ADHD. So there's probably some people struggling to keep up with this conversation. I do speak very fast. But I love it. I'm thriving on it. I can vibe off you. And it makes me wonder actually have you ever realized how much that worked for you on the rugby pitch as well because i've heard you talk i love the pod and seen you in other things where you're talking and i often wonder if you've actually ever realized how just just looking at someone you you take so much in compared to other people how they're looking what they're doing body language did it and just how you probably had that psyche on the pitch which you're now taking into business you're taking into your dad i don't know if you thought about that before because you move at a thousand mile an hour Yeah.

24:00So I thought... Have you decompressed that? Yeah. Well, I mean, so first of all, I don't think I've ever knownly relaxed, which is probably never... I was wondering how you relaxed. So I read a lot. So I read, I listen to audiobooks. And when I eat, I sit and watch a movie and it's always like, I just chill. Because I can... So you can switch off. I can switch off. Yeah, I can. Like, I just came back from France. I went with my ex and my daughter and, you know, I just sat by the pool. I can read very comfortably and I can concentrate. You know, I can... I work sometimes doing all my emails because I have to compartmentalize.

24:30as I have to go, right, I'll do an hour on emails, an hour on WhatsApps, an hour on social media. I can't do them all at once because suddenly, 20 minutes later, I'll be down like a rabbit hole, I've achieved nothing and done something else. That's me, a bit of a busy fool at times. Busy fool, yeah, so I compartmentalize, I put in my diary, hour, do it. I don't even look at my WhatsApps. And if I have to send something, I literally go, right, just do this, send it, come back to emails. Because otherwise you go down the rabbit hole, like the first thing in the morning, I try not to pick my phone up because then you lie in bed and you're like, where's that time gone?

25:00and i think i do things like habit stacking you know like i make sure that um you know things like weird flossing your teeth i was always rubbish at it so when i drive i have those tooth pluggers i sit drive flush it because it gets done so it means that when i get the car i basically live in my car three or four times a day flossing your teeth done if i want to get in the in the in my coming up for breakfast and all the supplements i laid out i'll take them all i put them away in the cupboard you you forget you don't do it it's got to be it's got to be in front of you so i just go So hydration, creatine, probiotics, done.

25:34Boom. I know that. I make my bed every morning. Because I watched this thing ages ago about a Navy SEAL general that said... It was a speech, wasn't it? Speech, yeah. It's memorable. And I do it. And he basically said, look, make your bed every day. Because if you achieve nothing in the day, you've at least done one thing. It sets the precedent. If you've had an amazing day, who doesn't like coming back to a made bed? So I... Because, again, it's the little things. I don't know who... I don't know if it might have been Mike Tyson, one of the very careful quote Mike Tyson, but essentially, you know, he kind of said, it's always doing the things that you don't want to do are the ones that's really important.

26:09You know, every time I think about not doing something, I think to myself, you know, you don't want to do it, go and do it. You know what I mean? It sounds silly. It's like, sometimes you get out of your bed, make your bed. There's plenty of excuses in life for not doing stuff. You know, like I've got being into my head around, you are the standard you walk by. So things like people, we go to petrol forecast and people throw rubbish on the floor by your car. That's not me. It's not I didn't do it. But I think if I don't do it, who's going to do it? So I'll pick it up and put it in the bin. I'll walk past stuff in the house or somewhere and you go, if I'm not going to do it and I'm not prepared to and I wouldn't like that, go and do it.

26:48So I try to always have that discipline. And listen, I'm not going to pretend I get it right all the time. But mainly I always go, I'll just leave that there and I'll do that tomorrow. And I think, no, do it now, get it done. Do the things you don't want to do first because you get more time to do it. And I think to myself, if I do all my emails, do all my work, I can then sit and watch some rubbish action movie. You can justify it. I can justify it. Do you build in stuff like, so I had a cold shower this morning. Yeah. When you're staying in a... Oh, sorry, what a way to spoil the day. Yeah, before, it's the making the bedroom, right?

27:19It's not enjoyable, is it? That's my point. I get it. People say you can cuss out caffeine and take away another pleasure or start a day with a cold shower. I'm like, I told you to get it. And I just wonder where you sit with this. Because the whole idea is I'm staying in a hotel or I'm at home and one of the kids is used to shower or whatever before. So I've got to turn it to cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's already hot. I know, I know. Where were you with that? Do you put yourself in a position where you deliberately do some of the harder things? So there's things like, so I, you know, obviously Wim Hof, everyone gets mad into it.

27:43I want to invent Haskoff, which is basically just a warm bath. Got a good ring to it. Great. I want to do something opposite. Like, you know, he's obviously done amazing things. And again, you know he's massive into music as well. Yeah, yeah. Music's at the heart of the breathwork. Yeah, and again, I think for me, the reason I like music so much and the reason I got into it was I started to go to Ibiza, I started to go to Vegas, but I go and see DJs and performing and the idea of someone being at the front of a room controlling everyone's vibe and energy. And you're the entertainer. And I was an individual sportsman, or as a DJ, as a team sport, so they focused on me.

28:17So that ticked a lot of boxes. yeah but i from 17 i use music as a tool to change um mindset so they say where focus goes energy flows so if you and i were having a row someone could i could make you laugh or we heard a good song or something we would change the dynamic once we carried on arguing it'd be difficult to change that because you'd be like turn that off and to carry on right sure but if you can change that that um moment and so when i was playing before a game i was one of the first players in my in my team to wear headphones and it used to upset everybody i used to i basically had bigger can headphones than they told me i wasn't listening to the coach wasn't listening to the players so i had to switch to smaller ones and then i would have notes on a notebook and they would say what you're writing what you're doing it make other people uncomfortable so when your first ipod came out you could import a note into itunes so i'd have it on my phone then i had a video ipod so i could watch highlights all just to make sure that everyone said don't do it don't do it i tell them i wasn't gonna do it i just do it my own way that's what i always do you know always just say yeah whatever you want to play I'll manage your ego I'll tell you what you want to hear I'm going to go and do it anyway and so I used to do that all the time and I understood the emotive power of music you know if you've if you've had a breakup and you're driving and you put magic fm on you're probably liable to drive into a wall screaming I love you you know in tears if you're having a if you're having a uh sunshine like today you get in your car a tune comes on you're like I'm a million dollars you know when when girls hit you know uh is it this is Shania 20 whatever let's go girls they feel like i can kick the wall down that's what empowered music can be empowering yeah yeah apparently so when you when you're dj you're playing music that makes you have an emotive has an emotional effect on you to people that's having an effect is the perfect synergy now the thing is we all know that at the start of summer there's a song that you love by the end of it you listen to a million times it loses its power so you have to keep reinventing that and finding songs that's why i'm always envious or sort of mildly surprised guys like fisher you know his track losing it he still plays it now but you've got to know he's probably sick of it everyone still loves it yeah but he's got to be sick of it because he's done it he's probably played it 100 000 times you know you you have to keep changing um stuff with music and so that's kind of why i got into those those elements understood kind of the power of yeah of that of that um of that music um and how that kind of worked and also how i can manage my life through through trying to change focus and try and change energy because all the lessons I had when I was a player even the stuff you said about kind of mind working fast on the field was I didn't deal with criticism very well so it was how I understood so the self-awareness piece you asked is basically I had to learn how do I want to be spoken to sorry so a lot of people don't understand how they want to be spoken to they know they don't like something but they don't they've never paid attention to how they learn visual audible walking through it they don't understand how they want to get feedback so they oh I don't like that instead of going actually how do I want to be spoken to so I had to handle that with coaches I really hard on myself with criticism trying to prepare for 30 games consistently very difficult you might partner might be having a row with you could be injured media could be uh hammering your team could be playing rubbish putting on music so as soon as you put the headphones on turn off at the stadium you're in game mode that eradicates all that stuff because the music has the emotive effect you're like actually I was tired not entirely more I'll run through a wall.

31:27Then you build into the game, then you play, then you go again. And so the same stuff I learned through playing and understanding where to take feedback from, you know, and kind of how I wanted to be treated as a person, I've then taken that into my later life. But the stuff with the being in the field and sport and how quickly your mind works and stuff, yeah, it does. I actually bizarrely listen really well, which is kind of a weird thing. I just do this TV show, Celebs Go Dating, and there's a funny narrative they were trying to build into the show kind of that i can't say too much but basically my chat was rubbish that was kind of their narrative art now basically my chat started rubbish by the end it was slightly less rubbish right right but one of the things with it was every time i had a date the feedback was oh my god he listened he remembered it and that's kind of i think important because when some people talk as quickly as i do or go off you don't really need enough space to listen but i always tried to read people's body languages tried to because i spent so much time looking at myself how i learned yes how I want people to talk to me.

32:27Self-awareness piece. Yeah, how eye contact, how you want to speak to people, how you want to do all those things because I spent so much time on what is it I value? What is it I want to be spoken to? How do I want to treat other people? And I'm in my Taylor Swift era at the moment, so I'm just nice to everybody. That's my... I was not expecting you to say that. Yeah, I know, I know. I said that. Tell you what though, music is so important to you, isn't it? Yeah. Your passion for music, if you, without even necessarily even being self-aware about it, you bring so much back to music, which I love, by the way.

32:52And that rhythm, than that, the storytelling element to life. Yeah. There's so much of what I do. So I'll go home tonight on the train, I'll have headphones on. But when I'm not talking, because obviously I talk a lot, you won't see it in this because I'm far more interested than you. But when I've got music on and I'm decompressing thoughts and then James said that and this happened, oh, I forgot about this, my brain's still spinning at 1 ,000 an hour. And when someone else is talking and I'm listening, my brain's spinning because there's so much to take in. I don't think some people are actually good at that.

33:24No. But I tell you, it's interesting, again, because of the self-awareness piece. I've tried to always be nice. And I said, I'm going to Taylor Swift do her because I just think she's amazing. She built a thing and she's just nice to everyone. So I think, what would Taylor Swift do? Always. She was a businesswoman as well, right? Businesswoman, smart, entrepreneur, like game changer. Like, absolute legend. So I always think to myself, what would she do? Because before, sometimes sports fans and people, they can say things to you or do things to you or whatever. and you kind of you can end up um getting up annoyed about things or bit or you know or sort of not enjoying some experiences i now just let everything wash over me i'm just like what would taste with like just be nice this listen said be nice and and and so i sort of i always joke that i'm in that area but i consciously have to think about it because i think sometimes you know you can either be swimming against the tide or you can just roll with stuff because a lot of stuff doesn't matter conversations don't matter and you always have every time you meet someone it's like taking a business card for the first time that's their first memory and last memory they might ever have of you so how do you conduct yourself how do you treat yourself and i think a lot about um i think a lot about that and i think you know with that comes a lot of self-awareness so i know that i'm not everyone's cup of tea i watch people when i walk into rooms body language changes you know when i went on some of these dates i could see people had a preconception they're very uptight but they thought they knew they'd seen an image of you on social media and by the end of it if you're self-deprecating if you are um if you listen if you allow space you watch people change and the room changes and i and i've seen that a lot and that's empathy that's relatability you've got that you're a powerful intimidating guy to look at if you weren't talking and so on and you had to make a decision just on the look yeah and there's the mannerism there's the there's the icons that is the whole thing and then yeah but it's about the know the the the thing you said about kind of the the decompression bit as well is is i because that self-awareness piece you kind of think i wake up every day i get in the car and i think what mood am i in today you know like it's weird it's sitting there going what mood am i in today so i have a few things that i listen to so if i'm feeling like i want cozy and i'm comfortable i'm a bit tired i'll listen to old comedy old comedy like dad's army only fools and horses goon show like old stuff if i'm feeling like energetic and i want to take on the world house music tech house i'll try to pick up songs i listen to guest mixes if i want to learn and i'm feeling like full of life i'm like god i'm excited about life because it's basically how your motivation is because it comes and goes if i feel super motivated i'll only listen to a self-help book if i'm somewhere in between i'll listen to a fiction book and i and that's how i choose what what mood i'm in yeah i just check in with myself you know like you finish the day and you go how was i today what did i what did i do was i full of rubbish did i actually live up to what i said i was like and i and i check in and sometimes you go actually you probably were and i remember there was a period of my divorce where i was sort of talking about mental health performance i was like i haven't done a therapy session for ages and i'm probably struggling a little bit here and i'm probably not dealing with this stuff right and so then i go and check in so it's interesting when you sit on the train, I can't, I have to know what mood I'm in to choose what modality No, you're making me think.

36:34Flip that back to me, that there's no one thing I know what I'll be doing on the train because I don't know what mood I'm in. So I really, I take that to you. You know, again, it's just like, because people always talk about, again, some of the coaches about the motivation. I always say, stay away from motivated people because they, motivated people on the 1st of January will, buy a gym membership, buy all the gear, buy a set of trainers and go running now i don't know why anyone wants to go running to change their body unless you want to have a body like mo farah or run a marathon because the best way to change your body is lifting weights doesn't matter what what how you do it but lifting weights is is is the key and these motivated people they do it the first of january they get up next day they wake up and they're sore from running and it's so boring they then go actually i'm not motivated today i'm not going to do it non-motivated people they then look at what different um almost like different buckets they've got is it the competitive bucket are they are they um going i'm going to show them is it negativity is it my you know my friends told me that i'll never stick to this diet i'll use that is it the i'm feeling positive today bucket is it the uh i want what they want bucket inspiration and that's how i deal every day is i kind of go i don't get motivation resilience comes from going well what's my driver today and most of the time it's i'm really happy and excited about life some days is it's you know i'm i'm jealous of what they want i want that or somebody's told me that you're never going to do that and particularly players you know coaches they would say things to me because they were slightly older school coaches they would say that wasn't good enough you're rubbish thinking that i'm going to go oh my god now that's so motivating i'm going to run through a wall but actually it would break me a bit and i'd be like oh what does he mean and i thought he liked me i didn't deal with it very well so i would then have to through therapy use use those words and flip them and go i'll show you you say i'm rubbish i'll show you i'm not rubbish i'll do this and how this is how i'm going to do it and i put a process to it and so every day i kind of do those those things that's powerful because the version of you sitting here is the best version you've ever been but you look at all the things you've achieved all the things you've done the the entrepreneur that sat here but the again we keep saying it but self-awareness to have and to have leaned in and learned how you work and to then not be the person that disappeared out of the room that you earned to be in, talking about playing days, and being told you weren't good enough and disappeared and not come back.

38:54Because everyone can have resilience, but you've actually got to take the information, you've got to reframe it. You've got to actually work out how best to work with it, which you worked out how that worked for yourself. And that also saw, again, self-help books, I think they're great if you stick with it. It's like any gym plan. It's if you can these days find a plan that you believe in from somebody reputable and actually follow it for for six to 12 weeks and do it without being sidetracked with high rocks fasting uh you know the whatever fast five two crossfit uh peloton if you can go to work and go i'm doing this plan and avoid everyone else telling you how that's not the plan to do it and you need to take peptides you need to take glp1 you need to be running if you can actually stick to something and find it you will you will get results and it's the same thing with a lot of this stuff is if you can actually clear out all the noise find what works for you and do it and stick to it you will get you will get results and it's actually the people who are successful who are you know i've there's a great app called him a headway which gives you synopsis of books right i got lulled into it because it was like you know you can listen to loads of different books they work well for me so i'd find a load of entrepreneurial books i wanted to know about money or stuff where i'm not great some certain aspects of that it's like where my blind spot is i'm great from the house i'm not necessarily good at the my new show and finances and so i would read all these books these autobiographies and it doesn't matter who you read all the same lessons came out of all of them yet we like to complicate everything humans want the path of less resistance but essentially find something stick to it prepare to take risks if it fails you've got to pick it pick up and go again find other people doing what you want to do better than you and ask them for help yeah seek feedback have self-awareness be smart save early um you know partner with people collaboration um and you know look after yourself look after your body build discipline and that's how you become a billionaire now it's not it's not easy to do it all because no one's able to do it in different situations and different ideas and different levels of intelligence mean that it isn't always achievable but whatever your goal is as long as you can say it's possible so you know if i said you i'm gonna win the tour de france that's never gonna happen adidas says impossible is nothing that is impossible i'm telling you now if i said to you but could i have a world could i become a world-class dj and travel around the world and have a beat point number one yes i can how do i do it i don't know still working on it still work with it but it comes down to all the little elements we said on it break it down what do i control go and seek the advice pick yourself up when you've got the failures and that's how it comes down to it and if you just want to be a better dad you know you can't say i'm going to a better dad you've got to go look maybe i haven't got the answer maybe i should read a parenting but maybe i should see a dad that i i really admire maybe i should you know learn about the stuff and and then implement it because it's possible for anyone to be a good dad yeah but you just need to know how to do it you've got to you've got to go looking for it as well yeah you know you've got to get and that means that you've got to you're reading the books you're listening to podcasts you're doing all the things that you all at once i know while not having a cold shower And yeah, I'm going to probably - Ask off, mate.

41:59Warm bath. Warm bath. It's got a good ring to it. It's got a good trivia. It's pretty brand. You mentioned success a couple of times. And so much of what we ultimately are trying to achieve and so much you've already achieved is successful. Sitting here now with sort of maturity perspective, what's your definition of success? That is a very good question because I would not say that I am successful. I've had moments of success.

42:22So there was something that actually my ex, Chloe, was talking about. and I don't know where she got it from whether it was her thing or she learned from someone else but talk about your recipe for success so there is interesting statistic particularly around men men who make their first million how often they lose it how they lose it all because their recipe for success that got them to where they are can also be your undoing so my recipe for success when I was in my career was about working relentlessly was working harder than others was being perpetually unfulfilled with what I was doing, wanting to always, so I'd win a final and all I'd think about was the mistakes I made.

43:00So going away and that drove me to work harder. And then I learned lessons early on about, like I said, going to find people that were doing what you wanted to do better than you, getting advice, having self-awareness, working on my body, my mind. But I was 17 and suddenly I was 35 and I probably hadn't really enjoyed my career. I had moments I loved it, but I finished going, I want more, right? Now, if you don't address that, you live a very unfulfilled life and life becomes miserable. And you see it with guys, often billionaires, who've made so much money, but they can't stop. One of my therapists is sort of sitting there telling me this kind of story analogy where this guy had his house, he was on the road traveling, and his housekeeper called him and said, thank you so much for letting me use your infinity pool.

43:45She's in there with her family having her life, and he's in another hotel room. And he sits there going, this is wrong here. why is my housekeeper in my pool and i am in the hotel i've got the imbalance here this should be i should be at home in my infinity pool because when is enough is enough when is the success so when i retired i made a promise to myself that i would celebrate even the the the smallest win so my first time my track was played on kiss fm i got a bottle of champagne right i celebrated it you know the first time i i had i warmed up for carl cox i was like this is a big moment you know things with my daughter i don't look backwards i go right you know what moments like what i'm fascinated when she comes in and talks to me i just we just went for lunch before this i've just i just really engaged with it and i celebrate those moments but fully present fully present but i just i love it and i celebrate it i'm so lucky yeah it's so lucky that she's healthy and and i'm lucky and so i that's a celebration of win you know come and do a podcast like this something you've asked me to come and do it these are important moments and it's fun and i mean i I enjoy it, and that is success.

44:46And so I think if you are happy and you are fulfilled in what you're doing at that point in time, I feel that success. Do I really think I'm successful where I want to be? No, no, because I'm not financially in a place where I had to stop working. Two different things. There's appreciating, grateful in the moment, but not in any way being complacent because there's other things you want to get on. That's quite important. Yeah, and that's how I feel. So do I think I had a really successful role group here? Yes. Do I class myself as successful? No. I feel like I, particularly with rugby, people couldn't really understand that when I finished playing, I gave everything I could do to my career.

45:24And then I probably wasn't watching a lot of rugby anymore. I wasn't a massive fan of it because it couldn't make me money. I couldn't be better at it anymore. So I basically hammered the lid on that coffin, buried it, and I moved on because I didn't want to be the guy in a pub 20 years later. The only thing that I'd ever done was rugby. I felt that about you, but I think you've done that really well. And then what a lovely outlet with the pod to stay relevant in rugby with mates, with guests that come in that are talking about rugby. You've got obviously great perspective, lived experience, and you're still watching the current games and so on, but without needing to be the one that's bleating on about it from the previous.