Jamie Clements | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:07Jamie, thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here, albeit at short notice. I know. It's literally a chance for us to get to know each other now. So tell me, who is Jamie Clements? That's a very good question. It's evolving all the time, I think, is probably the honest answer and the only answer. But, you know, we like to be able to put ourselves in boxes. And for other people, it's helpful to be able to put us in certain boxes. So I'm founder of a business called The Breathspace. I'm a trained breathwork facilitator and breathwork coach. I suppose my realm of operating is more broadly health and wellness.

0:47I do consulting, I do advisory work in the space. And probably bigger than that for me, it's at the moment I'm talking a lot about really philosophy and then philosophy, psychology, spirituality. That's really my passion is understanding why we do the things we do, how we do the things we do and really what makes me tick but what makes people tick and looking at those decisions that we make and how we can live happier, healthier lives. I think the mission statement of the business and kind of personally for me is creating spaces for people to reclaim awareness, autonomy and purpose. So those are the three, the three big ones.

1:26We should all be interested in that, right? If not, then we'll be disconnected from life because they are pillars. Well, this is it. I sort of look at that mission statement and I go, yeah, duh. Like that kind of is the point. Yeah, but isn't it a bit frightening? This is probably quite a relevant part of our conversation. How many people don't seem to prioritise them? And I don't know where you go with that as a part of your conversation and almost the why behind what you're doing exists. But we should all, even breathwork, we all breathe. And yet I'm just as guilty probably as many people of not probably knowing enough of how I should breathe and then actually putting that into practice.

2:02So what got you into this? What allowed you to kind of almost follow what, dare I say, is a passion? Was it through something that happened to you or was it just an intrigue and interest? I would say my sort of official journey into this began about seven, eight years ago. It was when I first discovered Breathwork personally. But I suppose what got me to that point where I discovered it started, God, way, way back, but probably more seriously when I was 15. So my late teens, early 20s were marred with a lot of ups and downs, a lot of challenges with my mental health. I struggled a lot with what we might label as depression, but particularly anxiety.

2:41And then in my early 20s, started having panic attacks. And those to me were symptoms actually of a complete disconnect from awareness, autonomy, purpose. I lived a life through my late teens and early 20s where I didn't really develop a particularly strong sense of self. is very much built around this autopilot mode of what should I be doing based on what other people think so I did a lot of things that I enjoyed at the time I played high level rugby throughout my late teens early 20s I had good friends I had good job I went to a good university I ticked a lot of boxes but really if I'm honest with myself looking back how many of those things did I do purely for me and from a place of really knowing myself very few i think i put a lot of the challenges that i face down to this autopilot operating system of external forces and i sit here now with the the passions i have and the things that i do and for for a good while probably only up until the last two years, probably two years ago I had this realisation of these aren't new things, this is actually a remembering and a reconnecting to things that I loved when I was a kid, when I was a young teenager, I was obsessed with human nature, I was obsessed with psychology, I was really curious about philosophy and then I ended up doing an economics degree.

4:12How? And I know exactly how, right? because I followed a predetermined set path that I thought I should be doing. Was there pressure from parents there as well? Because when you say predetermined, and I'm not trying to blame your parents. I'm the same, right? I did things because that's kind of what I felt I needed to do. And because I wasn't sure what I should be doing, you sort of looked around at what other people were doing and there was probably voices from family and so on. Why don't you do that? Why don't you do a business degree? Because then you might have some skill and you're lost then at that point, right?

4:46I wouldn't say blame, but everybody holds responsibility, right? So I can take that responsibility now and go, oh, if only things were different. If only I'd taken a bit more of a zoomed out view and gone, what do I really want? But as a 15, 16-year-old, it's all messy. There's hormones, there's all sorts going on, figuring out life. I would never have said there was overt pressure for my parents to be anything. My dad has worked in finance and in that realm for as long as I can remember. So for me, that was just the modelled example. I was like, well, that seems like an obvious career. That's a career where you can make good money.

5:21And for whatever reason, my worldview was that that was the goal. It was very traditional. I think the environment that you operate in, in terms of where you live, where you go to school, who you surround yourself with. You know, I went to a decent private school, not a, you know, big public school, but I went to a decent private school where that was the norm. We lived in home counties surrounded by people who were getting the parents, getting the train up to town to work in the city. Didn't really see a lot of entrepreneurship. You didn't see a lot of less traveled paths. And so I think that to me is the thing that's to blame rather than specific people.

5:57Right. And I remember having this moment where it was A-level results day. So I was going to find out which university I was going to. And I needed an A-star and two A's at A-level to get into the university that I went to. And my school sent us our results before we found out what university we got into from UCAS. And it's a weird recollection. But I got three A's. And I was broken because I was set on going to this university. And I felt like I'd failed. And I was really upset. And I remember my mum saying to me, you know, it doesn't matter. Like, even if you don't want to go to university, you don't have to.

6:37And I was so baffled by that because that was the first time anyone had ever presented the view that it's OK to do something different. And I remember being pretty confused and a bit off being like, well, you're telling me this now after I've done all of this for what I thought was to get to this end. and I ended up getting into the university I wanted to go to anyway and continuing to follow the path and not do anything differently. I was writing about this the other day, this idea that I have to be grateful for all of that because otherwise I wouldn't be here doing what I am today, having this conversation, able to do the things that I do right now because every single one of those things led to where I am right now and so would I have got here if that hadn't happened?

7:22Probably not. Maybe, but we'll also never know. So I think I sort of hold a bit of, I definitely hold gratitude and I sort of a nice reflective sort of, it wasn't a nice period of time that I went through, but it's led me here. So I have to hold a degree of gratitude for it as well. And the only reason why we're even talking today is because things ultimately didn't go right for me in a situation that I can look back on with gratitude now because of perspective and maturity but at the time i certainly didn't enjoy it i wasn't enjoying it so there's a real power there and i think you can imagine whether it's clients of yours people you meet in your social professional network and same as me that's a real parallel but where was the pivot for you because yeah and it's really interesting listening to you talk as well because i want to come on to that breathing side of things and and understand just how i can benefit from breathing in my everyday life my professional life but there is a there's clearly a moment where that became really important to you?

8:24Because you've gone the route that wasn't your choice. And so when did you change? Yeah, so I was 23 turning 24 and I was having near daily panic attacks, running a sales team at a tech startup where I was just not happy. I was deeply anxious. I was in a relationship that wasn't particularly healthy. And there was a lot, there was a perfect storm brewing. Around that same time, I lost a friend from school to suicide and that was my first experience of losing someone who was relatively close to me, not a really close, close friend, but somebody in sort of the peripheral group of my friends from school who passed and that was a slap around the face.

9:02That also became the catalyst for me speaking about my mental health with my friends for the first time and all of us kind of opening up that conversation and I found myself as a result of all of these different things just in a deep, dark hole. that then opened up my eyes through necessity really to starting therapy in a meaningful way I tried it before and always just like pushed it away therapy in a meaningful way mindfulness in a meaningful way breath work in a meaningful way and really just accepting that I needed to help myself and that I needed to seek support can I interrupt you really quickly because I know there is a flow there but just because you said you tried therapy before yeah and then it was almost like through necessity you said and then is that what was needed for it to work for you whereas dare I say when you first tried therapy you weren't open to it I think a combination of of being quite close-minded to it um being in denial around needing help and also the therapeutic relationship I just hadn't find that found the right fit and I think that's so important with any kind of therapeutic relationship therapist coach whoever it might be um and so So that was even, you know, I didn't want to look for a therapist.

10:21It was actually my mum that ended up doing it. And she was like, will you let me do it? And I remember just being like, whatever. And so she did it, found me someone local. So like there was at least a chance that I would go through with it. And I ended up working with that therapist for the best part of 18 months. And that was massive for me. And I think through that process, again, it's quite a recent sort of realisation in hindsight. after I ended up getting let go quite unceremoniously from that startup I won't say kind of unfair dismissal but they ended up giving me a very lengthy gardening leave because I was like what on earth have you guys done here and I had three months of not working of looking for work but three months essentially paid leave and in that three months I started working on a business with some friends of mine from university I lived what actually looks remarkably similar to the life I live now.

11:18I was working from wherever I wanted. I was able to train whenever I wanted. There was a freedom and a flexibility that I think I've underestimated how much it opened my eyes to another way of living. I was so used to the nine to five existence, the Monday to Friday existence, living and working for the weekend, that I think that unlocked something in me that went. I also made friends through that time who were living, working for themselves running their own businesses and I just went ah there's something in this that clearly freedom and flexibility is important to me how can I start to build towards a life of that of that sort and so it was around this time that I first found breathwork and discovered breathwork again a lot of resistance a lot of hesitation a lot of just skepticism like just plain old masculine you know young boy skepticism and was like yeah it sounds a bit out there for me not really into it um and it was actually it took somebody who i now still know ex um rugby guy who said i really think you get something from this and i was like okay i'll give it a go and i i believe why breathwork stuck for me was i found it at a time in my life where i was such a passenger to my triggers, a passenger to my anxiety, passenger to my mind essentially, that breath seemed to give me this quite quick sense that I had more control or more say or more autonomy than I ever believed I did over my mind, my nervous system, how I sort of thought, felt and operated in the world.

13:02And that again was another little light bulb moment where I was like, it doesn't have to be this runaway train it can actually be a bit more in my hands and so I think that was that that was the starting point that was really the first piece where I went this has woken something up in me that isn't going to go away and that's a good thing that's fascinating but that's the principle of it so and also probably coming from a rugby friend as well probably respect there and you mentioned that sort of classic yeah men kind of you know I don't need that and so on and then the person that puts it to you then there's the principle but was there a moment where you started practicing breath work and you went oh i really feel different for this a series of moments i think so more gradual i would say so i'd say the first session absolutely was a was a moment in itself because it was a particular it was slightly more intense sort of almost wim hof style breath work that was a bit more stimulating for the nervous system and And for anyone who's done that kind of breath up before, you can get sensations in your body and you just feel things changing physically.

14:09And I remember feeling that and being like, OK, so any sense that I had that this was a load of **** has gone out the window because I physically felt something. And that to me is undeniable. And so that was the first one of like, this is legitimately creating a shift in my physiology. It's created curiosity and curiosity and almost like a level of confirmation of the curiosity. And so that was the sort of first one. And then I'd say there were sort of a series of moments, but I very much view breathwork in sort of two, multiple realms, but two key ones, sort of the micro and the macro. The micro being that daily practice of certain techniques to help bring more balance, more calm, to work with stress, to work with anxiety.

14:52And that really is sort of just, that was a built consistent practice for me over time. There's then the macro practice of sort of these deeper, more therapeutic styles of breathwork, where you can have these big emotional releases, where you can have experiences of almost psychedelic type altered states of consciousness. And there were a couple of sessions I had of sort of that end of the spectrum where I just had the most mind-blowing, mind-expanding experiences I've ever had, where it connected me to myself, to emotions of joy and also sadness that I'd lost touch with and also really connected me to spirituality.

15:34I think that was quite a big part of the process for me as well. Can I ask you, because this is fascinating to me because I haven't had that experience. Yeah. Whereas what I might be able to relate it to is going to the gym and doing a new form of exercise that unlocks a way of feeling more supple, more strong, visibly seeing muscles grow, that kind of new feeling. Yeah. With the experience you've got now, I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but I want to come back, but jump ahead a little bit to the point where those, almost the sort of the endorphins, the natural high you get and actual kind of proper kind of, you can sort of measure it on a barometer that I feel different.

16:12Do you still have that? Are you still able to move through your journey with breath work to keep getting those experiences? Or are they more normal now, but you just know they're good for you? Yeah. Yeah, really good question. I think I have less of, as in, I do less of that deeper kind of breath work than I did at the beginning of my journey. It's sort of tapered off, I'd say. I use it very intentionally when I feel like I want to go explore something or I want to go feel something. What I would say is that with that particular style of breath work, where we are going a little bit deeper into the sort of subconscious and the deep layers of the psyche and the self is that the physiology and the psychological processes going on in that experience mean that there is always an experience to be had the way it operates is very much like a I suppose a surfacing tool so we're really kind of quieting the mind and seeing what's lying beneath the surface so it might be clarity and insight it might be an emotion that you've been pushing away or ignoring it might be a memory that you've forgotten about it could be any manner of things and the beauty and also I think for a lot of people the hesitation around it is we don't know on any given day what's going to show up and so it is quite an intentional therapeutic tool when we get into those deeper experiences very much akin to how psychedelic therapy is being used we're going to similar places and just through different modalities and so I guess the short answer is yes I can absolutely kind of still have those experiences I feel less of a need to I feel less I feel like there's less to uncover I feel like you know as a 23 24 25 year old very emotionally repressed man there was a whole load in that box that needed rummaging through but actually now I feel like I've got a good handle on who I am my past my present and everything around it so my need to go and explore is is a little bit less but would you say that uh that sort of far-reaching and needing to find yourself and so on although you've done that is breathwork a daily maybe even an hourly thing that you are conscious of and practicing and even bringing it back to this conversation is there anything physically going on in your brain that's controlling how you're breathing right now and maybe elaborate yeah it's a i love this question because i think my answer's changed a lot over over the years right now i suppose like right immediately now and in my life right now, it's become an integrated life philosophy.

18:58I'm less concerned now with, and I do, I'll come back to that, I'm less concerned now with carving out my 10 minutes three times a day where I go and do my breath work because what I know it is. To designate time and you... Yeah, and I think there's always a time and a place for a dedicated practice. I have a minimum of 10 minutes each morning that I try and carve out for myself 80 % of the time to go and sit, be still, breathe. And there's always power in that. I think actually carving out time for ourselves is incredibly important. The evolution of that has been, I suppose to bring it right into this present moment, I am aware, and it's not front of mind, it's sort of middle of mind consciousness of how I'm breathing.

19:45So if I notice that maybe I'm starting to speak quite quickly and you're speaking, I might just notice that my breath is slowing down intentionally. and or I'm slowing it down intentionally and so that's really where my practice or my application of breath work has evolved to which is if almost now without thinking about it if I'm feeling myself a little bit stressed or a little bit anxious or if I'm struggling to sleep like my partner will often notice like if I'm feeling a bit anxious she'll rather than asking me what's wrong she'll be like you're breathing slower and deeper and more obviously is everything all right And it's like, that's the giveaway, not that I'm trying to hide it, but that's the giveaway that maybe I am trying to support myself.

20:30And it becomes increasingly ingrained as a part of how I operate. I think the process to bring myself to that place, obviously I've immersed myself in this for the last five, six years. For people coming new to this kind of practice or building this kind of practice, I do think that dedicated time is a big factor. and an important part of that process, but also beginning to bring in those subtle moments of noticing your breath. So as you're sat here, not focusing entirely on it and zoning out from the conversation, but being like, oh, I noticed that I'm a bit in my chest, soften the body, slow the breath, you're on the tube, you're in conflict with somebody.

21:14It's those moments where it just becomes a bit of an anchor point and just building that connection to it over time. I think sitting here now, lights, cameras, and then sort of almost giving an example of say someone that might be nervous about doing a presentation to a room of people, to a board, to anything that's, dare I say, going to get them anxious. And it probably kind of relates to some of what led you into breathwork, if you like. And I'm trying to think of a really relatable example to give to you, which I've also had myself and still have in certain situations where I feel my heart quicken.

21:49I can feel myself get sweaty palms and my breathing quicken. What can I do to control myself there and relax? For sure. So two options because everybody's different. um first one i would say probably my like fail safe would be something called extended exhale breathing very self-explanatory name but essentially when we make our exhale longer than our inhale heart rate slows nervous system settles so usually i get people to breathe in through the nose nice and gently and slowly and then blow the exhale like you're blowing through a straw as slowly as you can just almost like a balloon deflating you're just letting everything to soften and repeat that yeah that i mean that could literally be if you do one you'll probably feel better if you do five you'll probably feel a little bit better if you do 10 minutes you'll feel even better so really just you can get benefit from less but the more the merrier um the second option i would give would be box breathing which is a pretty famous technique now the navy seals use it on their way into a combat zone which is a combination of an equal inhale hold, exhale, hold.

22:56Usually four seconds could be three seconds per part. The reason that that's a good option in this kind of example of nerves or anxiety is sometimes people find it quite hard to catch their breath if they're particularly anxious. And so the idea of just going straight to that really nice slow extended exhale breath is a bit inaccessible. And so the holding of the breath can be a really helpful way to re-find control over it. Because if you're struggling to manage the speed or the depth of the breath actually just going I'm going to hold my breath for four seconds here and then try and breathe just helps to reduce your breathing rate again calm the nervous system and just sort of move yourself into a slightly more balanced space it's fascinating there's so many questions I could ask you about that one thing that intrigues me though if I wanted to find that answer I could go on YouTube now I could go into Google or TikTok and and ultimately find the answer yeah you've built a business out of this yeah you've built a community how have you done that and I suppose it's a bit like talking to the founder of a beer company who loved beer or wanted to go into a gym shark and make gym clothing because I want to but who doesn't if that's what your passion is but you have and you're doing it and you're scaling brilliantly so tell me about that journey almost as the entrepreneur where you've you've you've had that trauma your own experiences the panic attacks to then find something that works for you to then grow that as a business.

24:22How easy has that been? I've had all of the challenges that an entrepreneur faces. The ups and the downs, the financial anxiety, the wondering if this is a good idea or not. I almost say it comes with the territory. I've also never looked back and I've never gone, oh, maybe this isn't right. There's the murmur of self-doubt, but I know that this isn't going to stop anytime soon. It's in your wake. Exactly, exactly. And I always say to people around this kind of question and I think this to me speaks to purpose and passion which is that I feel like I'm being pulled along I don't really feel like it's been a grind or a I've found something that is a for me currently a form of purpose might not always be the case it will evolve as it as it often does but because of that I'm able just to it just keeps moving for whatever reason I'm not a religious man I'm a spiritual man but it just keeps moving for whatever reason

25:22and I suppose what I view as some of the importance to that or the or the important parts of that have been really around my desire and my ambition and my mission to make this accessible in whatever way I can in terms of how I articulate things I was saying to somebody last night when they were asking about social media growth, I said, it sounds like common sense, but all I'm trying to do is play the role of the mirror to articulate something that somebody innately knows, but hasn't been able to put into words yet. I view that as a strength of mine. And I think that's why I've been successful with the business and with social media.

26:00And then learning to leverage my strengths and work on my weaknesses. So like, how do I use that strength, for example, to build community? How do I use that to build a business? How do I also, in a breathwork industry that has become increasingly saturated and busy, make that different from just the conversation of you should use this technique here, you should use this technique here, because you could do that based on this conversation. It's just information giving. It's just knowledge. So what's the difference maker? What is the thing? There are certain, I think, unquantifiable things that you'll never be able to kind of put sort of hang a hat on but I do think it's that capacity to make the human experience successful and relatable in a way that holds that mirror up to people yeah and a lot of that will come down to you your personal brand so what you're doing but also it's Jamie approachable humble everything about you know and and having a mindset that people dare I say aspire to have that whole how many people do look over their shoulder and wallow and regret you know you're very clearly facing forwards and actually I wanted to ask you kind of almost who is the demographic of people that are coming to you anyone listening watching now you know dare I say could have any number of reasons why they would benefit you could argue everyone does but is there a specific kind of demographic you've noticed that seems to come and is it when they've actually reached a crisis because I suppose where I'm going a bit is wouldn't everyone benefit if they were doing breath work way before they reached?

27:32And it might prevent a crisis. Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, to be very honest with you, I look at my last retreat that I ran, for example. It's a very kind of deep process. It's a trauma-informed healing, emotional healing process. The demographic was mostly women, I'd say 75 % female, between the ages of 35 and 65. So actually it was the oldest group that I've ever worked with. And there's a part of me that goes, and I always feel this, I sometimes wish there were more people that looked like me in the sessions that I run. Actually, I ask myself this question quite often. I'm going, this is the shadow part and the self-doubt.

28:18Am I not cool enough or interesting enough or talking about things in the right way to appeal to a younger demographic, but also then letting go of that and being like, I'm doing me and I'll see who comes through the door. And I think that's always been the way. And I think in terms of who that is, for me, I label them, I suppose, seekers as the broad term, people who are feeling, whether it's a crisis or a murmur, a sense that where they're at and where they're heading doesn't sit quite right they might not know what that sit quite right is or where it's coming from but they know that there's something off and I think what to me and the mission statement that we spoke to at the beginning I think speaks to this I've nailed down those three areas of awareness of autonomy of purpose as the gaps that people seem to be presenting with in their lives when they come through the doors.

29:20So, you know, self-awareness, bodily awareness, breath awareness, autonomy in terms of a lack of balance or a lack of agency and feeling like they're on that autopilot treadmill. And then the one that I think we talk a lot about those first two, I think the missing link in the conversation is the purpose one and connection to something bigger than yourself because you can be the most self-aware, well-regulated individual jaw and still feel like is there not more to life than this and so I think those three regardless of age race gender whatever else I think those those seem to be the threads across the people that I see walking through my doors fascinating I'm conscious of time and I feel like we've only just got started and I could dive into this but um based on the fact that we haven't got a lot of time left box breathing um having anxiety having a panic attack are almost I guess what you call extremes sitting here right now and and dare i say no cameras no lights no one else in the room where we're both relaxed we're just having a chat my point being a normal situation how should we be breathing how should we actually breathe that dare i say there are many people that just quite simply breathe through their mouth and you'd say don't do that on a normal basis yeah take a deep breath um whenever you can you know whereas it might get shallower and shallower and shallower how conscious should we be and develop a habit that would actually be breathing to keep us healthier so again i probably evolved this and i'm slightly more careful with what i say around this than i have been in the past because i think the whole personal development wellness industry is very guilty of saying you're doing this wrong you're doing this wrong you're broken because of this and we just make people feel awful about themselves and breathing gets batched into that You hit stats thrown around.

31:06I can't even breathe. 99 % of people are breathing wrong. That was on Stephen Bartlett's podcast. And you hear this pathologisation and dramatisation of breathing. As you said, and as a lot of people say, we're all fine because we're breathing. We're alive. We're all good. I view it a little bit like posture, although slightly more important than posture, which is that mine isn't perfect yours isn't perfect we can improve it and we'll probably feel better for it and the fundamental principles of breathing better and breathing in a way that's going to support you and make you feel better is through the nose at rest it's deep into the belly it's actually breathing gently not breathing in a massive kind of expansive way um nasal gentle deep i'm sure there's one more and slow is the last one so if in doubt i just say to people close your mouth slow your breath down and make it deeper and it should almost be silent at rest is really the kind of extra extra credit there is making it gentle and silent but also i wrote it in a i wrote a piece the other day called breathwork is broken um because of this kind of messaging that's going out and the funny bit I put in there like most people are holding their breath while they're reading an article on how they're breathing wrong it's actually like maybe just don't read it and maybe just apply those principles and you'll start feeling a little bit I can relate to that all the way through this conversation I've been thinking how am I breathing how am I reading am I reading right because you're concentrating on something that I wouldn't have been concentrating on yeah but because it's clearly a key you know key driver behind our whole conversation yeah I I would love to keep going, but that has been fascinating.

32:54Thank you so much, Jamie. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Cheers.