Loraine Barry | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:12Lorraine, thank you for joining me. Thank you very much for the invitation. Been looking forward to this. Yes. Tell me, who is Lorraine Barry? Lorraine Barry is from Ireland, from Dublin. Started ballroom dancing when I was six years of age. And then I left Ireland when I was 17 to come and dance in England with an English partner called Andrew Sinkinson. And that's when my dancing life really took off in its full strength. Still dancing now. And still dancing, just came from the studio, actually. That's brilliant. I didn't know that, but it's great that you're still actively doing something you clearly had a passion for from such a young age.

0:52I did. Actually, I realized that passion early on. I would say at the age 10, 11, perhaps up to 12, I knew this was my life. Do you know where that inspiration came from? Did you see someone? What gave you that inspiration? My mother was an Irish dancer and my father was a rock and roll dancer. So I believe it was in the jeans. And then one Saturday morning, my mother was going shopping and my sister and I were with her to carry the shopping. And we saw this sign saying Ballroom Dancing starting here today. So she just said, would you like to go? And I went and then I went the following Saturday.

1:29And then I looked forward to it every Saturday after that. In fact, I couldn't wait for it. Was there like a natural entertainer in you? You know, were you the girl singing with the hairbrush or was it the dancing? Because singing, dancing, the whole thing can go on. Was it really the dancing that you were passionate about? There's a lot of musicality in dancing as well. But no, I wasn't really an entertainer at home in the sense of singing or dancing. But as soon as I started to dance, I would say I became a competitor very early on. And an expression of who you wanted to be? or was it very much sort of more about the following the choreography, if you like, the dance you're doing to the competition?

2:06I would say more the expression of who I wanted to be. Quite competitive. I wanted to learn a skill, wanted to show it. Obviously, I must have adored the adulation that came with it. And I wanted to win. I wanted to be the best. I learned that early on. I wanted to be the best so I could win. Super competitive. Super competitive. And when did you get a feeling that you could make a career out of it? Because it's one thing having a passion for something. But a lot of people, unfortunately, either don't pursue it enough or don't have the talent, if you like, to make it into a point where they can be professional with it.

2:43When did you get that feeling or what was the validation you got where you were like, oh, I could go far with this? Well, I was winning trophies and I obviously I would see golf or tennis. And I thought, well, that's where they start off. They get a trophy or they get a medal. And then after that, then the checks come. So I knew there was money to be earned in it. But actually, as it turned out, there is not big money in ballroom dancing in prize money. We don't have super events. I'm a four times world champion, a seven times open British champion. and the highest amount of money that you will win for the Open British title, which is the same as Wimbledon, same as the Open Golf, is£800 for a surprise.

3:29Gosh, and yet how many people love dancing? I mean, Strictly Come Dancing is mainstream, watched by millions. Absolutely. So where's the disconnect? My point being, people play tennis and they go to Wimbledon and the winners of Wimbledon win millions. I don't think I can answer the question because I don't know. I don't know the answer to it. We just had Barry Hearn sitting in here. We need to get him involved in dancing. Exactly. In all seriousness, is it like... Well, we have Angela Rippon involved in ballroom dancing. So we do have media coverage. And I would say now that we have the Strictly here in England, UK, in Ireland, where I'm the head judge in Ireland, it's called Dancing with the Stars because no one is allowed to use Strictly Come Dancing, only UK, BBC.

4:13So they franchise it out to every other country. But it's getting the attraction. There's a difficulty between ballroom dancing being a sport or ballroom dancing being an art. So if we were recognised as a sport, I think then we would have more opportunity to get sponsorship. Where do you sit with that? Because you've been a dancer all your life. I think it's both. Yeah. You've got to be physically fit to do it, right? You need to train. There's a physical element to it, right? Yeah. So it's not obviously attractive enough to have that sports element to get that sponsorship in. So unfortunately...

4:51It's got my brain spinning. I just... But that's... So to make a living out of... Yeah, dancing. I mean, how have you done that? So you've got the competitive side and the passion. You are now getting the results. You're winning, but you're not making money. How are you surviving? So the story will be that when I came to the UK in 1980 to dance with a very fabulous dancer called Andrew Sinkinson, who recently passed away at the age of 60. That was this year, right? Yeah, this year. This year. We teamed up together. We actually fell in love with each other, believe it or not, doing the original cum dancing.

5:29So that was with the Terry Wogan. I remember it. I'm 47. So you remember it. It was on very late at night. But Andrew and I fell in love with each other. And then he said, will you be my dance partner? So I came over and we were amateur. So in those days, in the 80s, an amateur was not allowed to earn money. So we couldn't earn money as such. We couldn't hold down a job because we were competing all over the world. So going to Germany and Poland and Czechoslovakia and East Germany at the time, Checkpoint Charlie, going through that we would win a fur coat or a record player or a piece of jewelry so then get back to the UK and then scout around who's going to buy it where can we sell it in order to get some money so that we could go have lessons have practice and develop our dancing so it was it tough yeah it was really how did you survive I mean are you subsidizing what your passion and what you're doing, where you're winning, with a job?

6:33No, can't hold down a job because you're traveling too much because you need to go away and compete. So basically when you go away and compete and you win all these prizes, you sell them. And that's what you survive on is that money. And obviously parents. So the parents, my parents, my father was a taxi driver, my mother was a seamstress, four children in the family, not a lot of spare cash around. But Andrew's parents were very generous. So we lived with them in Southport in Merseyside for the first two years. And then I said to Andrew, it's all happening in London. We have to get to London.

7:08So we made our way down to London and went to Tooting Beck and rented an apartment. And just kept dancing and going away and selling the prizes that we won to get the money to pay the rent, to get more money then to have lessons. And then I took up decorating dresses in order to get extra money. So you did ultimately subsidize to be able to pursue your passion. Definitely. Wow. So that must have put a lot of people off. A lot of people that would have the passion for dancing, but cannot make a living out of it. I think the passion was too big to put you off. There's such love for music, for dancing, for expression that that just fulfills you.

7:48So you'll go without a meal or you'll sleep on a friend's floor. That's what we used to do in the beginning. We would save the money, get the train down to London and then just ask another dancer who was living in London in a better position than us. Can we sleep on your floor? So there was a support network there probably. Yeah. You talk about that passion. It's just rippling off you. Oh, yeah. And you fell in love with Andrew. It's making me think of the Strictly curse. Right. And the fact that when you put two people together that are moving to music and whether it's romantic, boring or whatever.

8:22is and you're combining and you're training together you can so see why that's a recipe for disaster if they're in relationships elsewhere right I mean we we have many relationships that have actually lasted the course we have but of course with strictly being in the press all the time and it's a celebrity sometimes and that so there's more news coverage in our world of ballroom dancing it's tough it's 24 7 you're traveling together competing together living together and it doesn't always go smoothly the dancing so it can be difficult and you can grow apart Andrew and I grew apart we were 17 when we got together and got to the age of 24 25 and we had grown apart so we weren't in love we loved to dance but we weren't in love with each other so spending that amount of time with each other became difficult I understand that and so in context of having a relationship, if you like, whilst being a professional dancer, I'm almost asking this from an empathetic point of view and also from kind of almost your lived experience point of view, that is there a way of mentally blocking out and treating it professionally when you're going to have a dance partner where you really could, even if you don't want to, you could start getting very physically attracted to that person.

9:38Oh yes, because you're so close to them. You're in someone's arms all the time. And you're working so hard as well. You're concentrating. You're in that moment together, right? Yeah. And you're living that dream together. You're living the motion that you're doing, creating this motion. The bodies are rolling around each other. It's quite intimate. You'll take a tango position. It's much more compact. It's more cozy together. So there is a lot of attraction there. Sure. And so hence why, yeah. Yeah. So it may surprise you. I did ballroom dancing as a youngster. Yeah. My mum signed me up. I was horrified.

10:14Oh, who did you go to? Oh, gosh. Here's a question. Oh, so I got brought up in a place called Little Chow from Buckinghamshire. Oh, yes. Yeah. Michael and Vicky Barr live there. She was a big deal. She was, she was, you know, it was like everyone went to this woman and I've forgotten her name. I'm 47, as I say. But obviously I didn't progress. I didn't take it on. But I remember and I sort of, you know, I remember thinking, well, that's old fashioned. You know, my school had a ball and so on, but it was moving to disco. It was moving to just, you know, basically what everyone seems to be doing now at schools.

10:48So I'm interested in the sort of the publicity that Come Dancing and Strictly gives. We all watch it, but are youngsters coming through? Is there a sort of new generation? Hundreds. Brilliant. Hundreds of them. So the biggest market we have at the moment, no surprise to say this, is China. So there's not even hundreds there. There's not even thousands, millions. They're all dancing. So it's part of their education in China now that they learn how to dance. So it's the arts. So they go very much into the artistic side. They do a lot of formation dancing. They don't all have partners. So they brought up this new event called solos.

11:30So they can actually dance on their own. So girls who don't have boys partner, they can actually dance on their own. And boys who don't have a girl partner, although I can't understand why they wouldn't, because there's always more girls than boys. But it's an opportunity to just dance on your own. And it's an opportunity to win because they have changed everything in dancing. Now everyone wins. So there is a world title for a solo now, a solo boy, a solo girl, different age groups. and I think it's an incentive just to get people to dance. And with that many youngsters coming through, that surely should drive sponsorship and prize money, you think, right?

12:11You would think. Because we live in a content-creating world now, so these youngsters will be probably filming themselves or being filmed, showcasing, because that's what we all do now. We've all got our own personal brand and so on, so that's the future coming through. Surely that should elevate the... It should, but unfortunately our dancing world is run by dancers. We need business people. We just know the foxtrot. We know the walls. We know the cha-cha-cha. But we don't know business. That's what I believe to be the biggest problem. We need business people who have a business mind, who sees this product and then has that business mind to put it forward, which is obviously what the BBC did.

12:50There's an element of you that's got the business brain, the business mind. So are there cogs spinning there about how you could help? Because you understand the industry. You are, it's given you your sort of life, if you like. I'd be there as an advisor, but my passion will always overrule the business side of it because I love to teach and I love to pass on the information and I love to inspire and encourage the younger dancers and the older dancers. I am very lucky with who I teach and how I teach. I'm a very positive teacher, very inspirational. a lot of people will come to me not just to learn how to dance but how to work it out you know that's interesting so when you mentioned china as well there's a mindset thing here isn't there so just the principle of dancing you're physically exerting yourself we know that's good for you yeah but there must be an element of being fully present and you know in the world i look for my phone then you know in the world where we just keep getting distracted and we can watch something or someone else.

13:54Is that a key part of what you think is really attractive about dancing? I think there's a lot to learn in dancing. There's sharing, there's coordination, there's dancing with somebody, there's listening to a teacher, there's going out, there's competing, there's winning and there's losing. So there's a lot to learn. You can grow up very well in ballroom dancing. You learn a lot about the body, about etiquette. And it's not just China, there's Ukraine, even though they're still dancing in Ukraine. So I still teach online for Ukraine. It's inspiring to hear that. And the alarm siren will go off and they'll say, OK, Lorraine, we've got to go.

14:33So we shut down the camera and then they all go downstairs in the basement. And then maybe they'll come back up and then we'll regroup. How much will they look forward to that lesson? Oh, they love it. Think of how they're living there. But that would be the absolute highlight for them. And they do want me to go and I'm afraid to go. So I have the fear of going, but I'll do anything I can to help the Ukrainian couples, which I do. I do online lessons. And, you know, in the studio where I'm teaching at the moment, there are some Ukrainian couples who left Ukraine through the forest because they're young.

15:06The boys are young. And if they didn't, then they're in the army. And so I try to help them as much as possible. Polish couples, Japanese couples, Americans. What's interesting now in America, there are a lot of Ukrainian couples over there. So there's a whole new bunch of dancers coming out of America. This is fascinating. No, it's a huge world. Nobody knows. In the UK, people only know Strictly. Strictly come dancing. That's all they know. I'm a bit guilty of this. Yeah, it's like a headline, isn't it? But there's a whole... Oh, it's huge. Yeah. In Easter time, if you go to a town called Blackpool, now who wants to go to Blackpool?

15:46Everyone's going to say. You go to Blackpool just for the ballroom. So you have the Tower Ballroom, which is where Strictly Come Dancing is filmed. It's like the Mecca of dance, isn't it? It is, but there's another ballroom there called the Empress Ballroom. And that's where the main events happen. So the Open British Dance Championships happen. So at Easter time, you will have an influx from every country going to Blackpool for the Junior Dance Festival. And that's all under the age of 16. And that's global. So there's people coming from all over the world. Packed out. Blackpool doesn't know what hits it.

16:19Is there prize money for that? No. No prize money. It's a massive disconnect. It's bothering me. Yeah. No prize money. No. Because the British Open title, as they say, that's the prize to win that, but not the money. but of course you need the money but these people are flying in yes these people are there's equipment to train there's accommodation there's accommodation they're surviving to come and do it's very tough it's a really tough life very tough and some people don't make it there's only one place there's only one winner so your competitiveness is great that resilience you've got and I know you touched on Andrew who died earlier this year how much do you think dance has given you strength and resilience that you can draw upon now with your maturity and sort of perspective if you like a lot a lot you know a good if you ask for a figure out of 100 it's 95 and is it escapism as well for you as well so you can go to a place where you're fully present so i wasn't trying to make you emotional no no no no but but actually you know life life has its ups and downs and in dancing world um andrew and i were as we said, you know, we were young lovers together.

17:29We became very successful, two times world champion together, three times open British amateur champion, UK, European, international, you name them, we won them. We were the couple in Japan. Everybody wanted us for their shows. But unfortunately, as I say, we grew apart, we broke up. And then I went and got another dance partner in Italian. So when you break up from something very successful, you have to find that strength to keep going on and starting again. And in the dancing world, I would say that, you know, it's a man's world. So you have to fight for your position, which is exactly what I chose to do.

18:09So I really worked hard with my new partner to get back up into a very high position. And I did. Yeah, that man's world entreats me because I would still think there's more girls coming through that want to be dancers. And yet it seems like it's dominated by men. Yes, it is. So I think we talked before camera about the passion I've got for sort of female entrepreneurship and the importance of role models. So you are a role model in that, you know, from the TV side of things, let alone the accolades, the awards. And I don't want to ask the same question as I said about what can you do to change it, but what needs to change?

18:50Why is there a disconnect and how can it be more level, if you like, from an equality point of view, giving that voice? It's conversation. We need to be more open. We need to be less fearful. If you see something wrong, which I did, for an example, there was a big event happens in Bournemouth every year. The Bournemouth International Centre? Yeah, BIC. It's the UK Dance Championships. And this particular year, the panel of adjudicators, there are 11, and they were 11 male. And I thought... That's unashamed though. You'd think someone would, even one of the men would be like, we need to sort this out.

19:31Exactly. That's what I would have thought. But they didn't. When was this? It was about four years ago. So I rang the organiser and I said, please tell me I'm wrong. I've heard this is going to be 11 male, no females. Oh yeah, we don't know how that happened. Well, you do know how it happened because you're the organizer, you do the invites. So I said, really, I believe you should change this because it's not acceptable. And they said, no, we're not changing it. So the day before the event, one of the Japanese judges did not come because his wife passed away. So I knew he was not coming to the competition.

20:08So I went to the organizer to actually the chairman of adjudicators because the organizer was busy and I said tomorrow's event is going to miss one judge please could you put a lady judge on not me any other lady that's here why not you well because obviously I was the one who asked for it maybe they thought I was trying to line my own pockets or whatever they may have thought about fully qualified to be fully qualified but so we're another number of ladies here and again it's about sharing and I have no problem sharing with other ladies because we're all there and I said you know because I've asked you don't have to have me you could pick any other lady and they said no that was four years ago yeah we're now April well let me tell you what I did that's wound you up as well oh yeah that definitely wound me up so I got my makeup artist in from Ireland and my hairstylist and I said get me ready so I got myself ready I put on a white dress and during the competition, they invite the 11 judges to walk out onto the floor right by the stage and they name them all and then they stand there and obviously get an ovation from the crowd.

21:14And when they did that, I got up off my seat and I walked out into the middle of the floor and I clapped them all and then I walked back and sat down. Do you think people knew what you were doing? Oh yeah, they knew. I even asked some other ladies to join me, but they wouldn't. that's interesting yeah and what was the fallout from that um nothing for me I was actually judging the next year so that was my next point that was four years ago so April 2025 when's the next one of these we just had it in January and I've been judging every year and other women as well yes so potentially your actions there exactly exactly and that's what it's about so it's about having you know taking action or saying something but there's a lot of fear in dancing and people are afraid to say things because if you say things then you maybe you won't be invited to adjudicate a competition if you're not adjudicating a competition then perhaps the couples then won't take lessons with you and I don't agree with that I don't agree with that if couples want lessons with me, not because I'm judging, but because I teach them how to dance.

22:24And that's what it should be about. So why do people come to you? I mean, I could probably answer that a few of the 25 minutes of this movie, but why do people come to you? I'm a great teacher. I'm a great teacher. I'm very inspirational. I'm teaching green flags all the time, not red. It's not, oh, don't do that. Keep your shoulder down. No, you can't do that. I'm, okay, let's dance the shoulders. It's not about keeping them down let's dance the shoulders let's be free in the body let's listen to that music why don't you become the music you are the dance it's not about trying to do something it's about becoming it i love that so this is reminding me of going back to a young version of me that was very shy yeah and um i don't you know i think you know if it had been something i'd then found a passion for and who knows but I don't think I allowed myself to be free with what I was doing in those classes because I was too shy yeah and there are other people there and all that kind of stuff what advice would you give to someone that might be watching or listening to you knowing the life that you've had the feeling the passion you've got for dancing and going I'd love to do that but I am too constrained with my own thoughts and fear of being judged and so on yes Yes.

23:40You have to learn your skill. So I'm very confident because I've learned my skill. I know how to dance. We do have a technique book. I've studied the technique book. I've passed my examination with the Imperial Society, one of the highest levels. And then it's about, it's easy to say this, but don't be afraid. It's easy to say it because even if it's a mistake, it's still a lesson. You're still learning by making. It's gross. It is gross. And what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And I've won world championships, but I've also lost one. And the world didn't end. No, it didn't end. I mean, I did cry.

24:20There's no doubt about it. I was brokenhearted, but I knew I was going to lose it. I knew. They told me not to go. You know, this panel of adjudicators, it's not favorable for you. And I said, well, if I don't go, I have no chance to win it. So I went and I lost it. Always give yourself the opportunity. Always. You have to be there. And I guess back yourself. That's what I'm really picking up from you. Back yourself. Always. Your confidence. And again, what's the worst that can happen? That's really good advice. Oh, yeah. You have to turn up. What have you not done that you'd still love to achieve?

24:50And I guess, you know, all the accolades and I've got a feeling it might be a bit more of a political thing, which you're doing, right? But is there something you've not achieved yet that you'd really like to? I'd like just to achieve for the whole dancing world, not me. My day of competing is over. So it's a bigger picture now. Yeah, I want to make it better for, I'd love sponsorship. I'd love big prize money. I'd like transparency for the selection of adjudicators. I'd like adjudicators to be selected on merit that they've done this event. They've competed in it. they've at the Open British Championships that's going to be held in Blackpool in May.

25:30There is history there. Actually, this year, it's 99 years, this championship. So in 2026, they're celebrating 100 years in Blackpool, which is phenomenal. But I'd like the selection of adjudicators to be more transparent. So for example, I would love for every dancer who has won it or been in that final to be there on the night, which we all normally are, all dressed up, kitted out. They want to be as well, right? That's their environment. That's where they've had amazing memories and that's legacy. But I'd then like a lovely big trophy to come out and all their names be inside of it. And then it's a competitor or five competitors get selected and they come out and then they pick names out.

26:14So then it's on the night that judge that has that merit would be selected because that would stop a lot of politics are you working towards that always i'm always writing letters to them they're like oh here she is again what's the idea this time well you've made quite a lot happen already um and i think that's the bit that's um super endearing about you actually you know when you set your mind to it what advice would you give to i'm going to ask this in a way where it could be a young um wannabe dancer or someone pivoting because i think it's there's a lot of people that are probably at a crossroads in life right now that are adults and thinking I missed that opportunity I never knew about this and they're feeding off your passion and sort of it's a world they could come into you've won so much you've achieved so much and you are ultimately a teacher so what advice would you give to someone that wants to get into that don't give up don't give up so easily learn the skill um you know if you fall down get back up again and just keep trying, keep knocking at the door.

27:15If you have to punch the door open, just keep going at it. Don't give up so easily. Because for me, the reward at the end of it, to be a champion, but also to be held in esteem by so many competitors who now want to work with me is just so rewarding. It's just, it's wonderful. I wake up most days, you know, the body has a few and pains now but I wake up most days looking forward to teaching you know looking forward to the passion for I absolutely love it but I think in life people just give up too easily too quickly and then they say oh you know I should have kept going and I you know I really enjoyed what I was doing and I kept going I didn't get the reward so I gave up and I think that if you love something so much then it's worth it in the end so just keep going you've proven that i've got so many more questions that open up there but i'm just conscious of time i think you're incredibly inspirational to talk with i think what you've achieved what you've won what you've done in your world let alone then what you're bringing to other people's world is full credit and i'm very lucky because as i said they want to work with me so i work with top six couples in the professional ballroom field and the top six in the amateur so i want them to just be the best better than me better than you get to work with the best I do but it's so rewarding I'm so grateful I can tell well thank you for making time and clearly a busy schedule to talk with me and share that because I think that's incredibly powerful thank you thank you thank you pleasure thank you very much