Mick McCarthy | Leadership, Loyalty & the Relentless Drive to Win | Extraordinary Life Stories

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0:35Yes, I got some wrong, but I got quite a few right with my thousand and odd games. That's amazing. Tell me, who is Mick McCarthy? Who is he? 67-year-old former footballer, former manager. And you are often referred to as a hard guy. I don't try and be tough. I don't try and be the hard man. Certainly not in regular life, but on a football pitch, If you let people better you and you have to succumb to them, you're going to get run all over the top of. And I was brought up in an area, you don't let that happen. No. I mean, a huge part of this revolves around leadership. You have to have both, I think, in leadership.

1:10The hard side, the tough side, you make the decisions. But I think more importantly is the compassionate side that you care for your people who are working with. I look back on quite happily. Some things I look back on, sadly, losing playoffs. It still hurt me. I'll tell you the defeats, I can't remember all the wins. Is there one achievement, if I put you on the spot and said one thing that you've achieved that stands out, what would that? As a manager, sort of going to the World Cup and then having a successful World Cup, having lost arguably our best player.

1:56Sorry to interrupt. I've never asked this before, but if you can subscribe and follow, that will allow me to keep bringing extraordinary guests onto the show. Now let's get back to it.

2:10Thank you. Nice to be here. Yeah, looking forward to this. Tell me, who is Mick McCarthy? Well, that's a good question for the first one. Yeah, your hardest one. Who is he? He's a 67-year-old former footballer, former manager, straightforward, honest, Yorkshire man I would say says it as it is most of the time sometimes I can't because I have to protect the innocent hard working, hard grafting I don't think I'm particularly that's how I was as a footballer not particularly good footballer but I was good at stopping those that were so and you need that father of married to Fiona for 46 years yeah and three kids, five grandkids and a family man.

2:57It's lovely. And a big smile on your face. I love your energy. We met at the Sportsbook Awards and instantly was like, I can't wait for this conversation. No, it's kind of. You get told that. Yeah. I want to go back to the kind of early who and what influences. Tell me more about that, kind of almost role model elements, if you like. My dad was the biggest influence in terms of sport. My dad was, he played hurling. He was a really good hurling player. Came from Ireland, played hurling. used to take us to watch him play in Leeds when I was five, six. He was the one that played with us all in the field, opposite our house.

3:32In fact, the lads used to come and call for Charlie. Charlie's my dad. And he'd organise the teams and pick them and we all joined in. Anything he played, table tennis, snooker, he was good at it all. So he was the influence first on sport. My mother was a good swimmer. And I guess that's where it all started, playing in the field opposite. Because it does, you know, as a kid. At junior school, I'm... I can't... Every teacher was a lady. Now, that'd be okay now because ladies are playing football. But at the time, it's like, whoa, you know. So at 10 and 11, I'm the oldest in the school before I leave.

4:14I'm tasked with picking the team, blowing the ball up, making sure everything was all done. That's early leadership, right? Yeah. You think about that. You were already taking initiative, learning from your dad. Probably watched it. Yeah. And I'm saying, by the way, for anybody, please don't tempt me as I'm, like, against ladies playing football. I was 11 at the time, so I'm going back 56 years. And it was a different time. And, you know, Miss Kitchen would be saying, you can pick the team, you can blow the ball at Newmation, because they weren't bothered about it. Well, she wouldn't know. I mean, it's a whole different scenario now.

4:49I loved everything, playing as a kid. I'd do any sport. Saddens me to know that PE is hardly taught in schools. I don't know if you're aware of this. I spent a bit of time with Lord Seb Coe about three weeks ago, and he was saying that he wouldn't be the person he is now, the businessman, the politician, the rounded person from the resilience learn, the character building, the constant striving to be successful, but often failing, that comes from sport. And I thought I'd bring that into the conversation because you were playing table tennis. you're doing all these different things that so many kids now and it's sad to say with the screen time and so on they're not playing sport oh yeah we had we used to draw the curtains the curtains came down we played in the house move everything we broke more fences and windows than i can care to remember um love sports day at school you know junior school you know whether it was uh a relay race dropping the sandbags picking up sprints we didn't do much you know we're not in 400 metres at the time but it was probably 100 yards at the time.

5:52But I loved it, every single sport that we did I would have joined in. That was me and if I hadn't done that football and then gone to Worsborough High School and we had a good team, got to the last 16 of the Coca-Cola Cup and that gave me a great grounding for playing football all the way through. Do you know what you would have done if you hadn't followed football? I was down to go down the pit to be an electrician. Yeah, I'd pass the pre-selection test, I'd pass the interview. All I had to do was pass the fitness test, which I'm damn sure I'd have passed that one. And it was at a time when it was in a lull, like the mining industry, I guess.

6:32I wanted to get the trade so I could be an electrician and do what I wanted after. If I wanted my own company, I wanted to do something else in electrics. and it just got delayed and got delayed and I was playing for a team called Barnsley Boys Club Keith Steele was running that team Keith Steele's dad was Johnny Steele who had been at Barnsley and I think he'd been the manager but he was now the secretary and Keith said I was flying in the league I was one of the I'm saying it now but I was quite clearly one of the better players because they recommended I go down to Barnsley and they said, so they said, well send him down and I went down and knocked on the door and said I believe the secretary comes to the door and says what do you want?

7:18He said, my name's Michael McCarthy, I believe you want to sign me as an apprentice imagine that now, turn up anywhere and they said, well just wait then, I'll go and check with the manager, who was Jim Eiley at the time but I'm sure he wasn't dealing with it, it was Johnny Steele, Keith's dad he said yes, so gave me a piece of paper almost contract and said here sign here for 11 quid a week seven six for my mother and five for me I got the smaller portion of it and the rest was for the digs for my mum and then you know you could say the rest is history I joined at 16 I played in the intermediate league at Barnsley and it was under 19s well believe me when you're 16 and you're playing against 19 year old pros that have been at a football club for three years you have to stand up to yourself.

8:08It was a really good grounding. 19-year-old, yeah. Muscle, the whole facial look stubble and so on. It's a whole different material. You played in the first team. They had a game during the first team and then they'd drop them back into the Saturday intermediates. It was a good place to grow up, man. And at that point, I guess that was where you can take it seriously. That's when you're like, actually, this is a profession now. Yes. So that then swept everything, going down the pit and so on, your mind went into, but that was passionately. When I signed and then I told people, I told a couple of teachers back at school, and they said, well, China Football Club, not sure you're good enough and all that.

8:47So, oh, I got that a few times. Might have had that when I was a professional as well, so that makes no difference. I had that all through my career.

8:57But it was great, because it was lovely to prove people wrong anyway. That's where I was smiling. There's a lovely competitiveness to you. You mentioned you might play some golf later. You need that in your life, don't you? If someone says you can't do it, you're already thinking, watch me and get rid of the obstacle. We go up for a four ball at the golf club and we're all pally pally and then we throw the balls up and it's me and you versus them two, idiots. We're playing them two. I call them worse than idiots. Yeah, of course. Us two against you two, so-and-so. I said, hold on a minute. No, no.

9:30All that friendliness has gone. That's right out of the window. We want to win. It's a very jokingly, but still you want to win. Absolutely. Absolutely. And without fast-forwarding a whole career of playing for top clubs, you're captain of your country and then managing the country, just that whole element of sitting here now, relaxed, but still stimulated by competitiveness. Where did you get that from? And also you still look really fit. And when you were training to play the next game, when you were training for the competition and the cup final scenario, Yeah. You've got a real purpose. How have you brought that into sort of a consistency to stay looking good and feeling good?

10:11Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel maybe or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. I had it as a kid, competitive, wanted to win everything. and then I had it with going to senior school and then certainly when I signed at Barnsley. We weren't a great club at the time. It's always a great club if you're at Barnsley, you join them. I'm from Barnsley. We always wanted to be better. You know, we wanted to win that Northern Intermediate League and we did the year I was 18.

10:48And we're playing against Leeds and Newcastle, Sheff, United, Sheff, Wenzel, who were all in the first divisions. Doncaster, Grimsby, it was a tough old place to learn your football. and I just had that competitive edge. I had an older brother, a younger brother, competed against my older brother all the time. John, my older brother, Kevin, and Catherine, my sister. It was competitive growing up, yeah. But what did you do without that competitiveness that's day-to-day for you now? Do you miss it or do you seek it out through, do you get enough from it out of the golf game and the other things that you're doing?

11:21Yeah, I get enough out of it now. So you build that into your kind of routine, if you like? Yes, playing golf. If I go out on my bike cycling, I compete against myself. If I do my 20 miles, I want to do it quicker than I did it yesterday or the day before. That's cool. I can identify with that. Because there's often a crisis of identity when a professional sports person retires. Did you have that or were you able to then build that back into yourself where you kind of challenged yourself? I've never lost it. If I turn up and play darts in the pool, well, not with ease on now, but anyway. but if you're playing pool, you still want to win.

11:58You can't help it. And actually, it's detrimental at times to you because I was like it with my kids. I was like it with Fiona, my wife. She'd laugh at me because she'd beat me putting. She'd be playing at golf and she tells everybody she beats me at that. But I'd be playing with the kids. I might be 9-0 down. I'd beat them 10-9. it's just one of those things that is it's detrimental to you sometimes yeah like in in but i say normal life in your regular life yeah not not not letting people win and it has it's always a competition you know we go we go out to florida without canoeing and i'm paddling faster than everybody else and you know i wasn't i wasn't well i wasn't great at football but like i said I was good at stopping those that were and that is a skill as well to be fair.

12:54Thank you. And it is, that's the competitive edge and I had it as a kid and I've, thankfully I've never lost it. I don't want to lose it either. No, and it's kind of infectious to be around because there's an element of, you're sort of pulling the bar up and if I was doing anything with you that was competitive, I'd know you're trying to stay one step ahead of me so I've got to keep raising my game. Absolutely, I want to be as best I can always. Yes. And outside of the physical element, if you like, because you're clearly keeping fit, the mental fitness, if you like, that is so important in the game.

13:25We know that now. So, yeah, probably wasn't talked about so much in your, certainly in your playing days. And then coming into the management side of things. I saw it as a manager though. I saw mental health as a manager with players and had to intervene a couple of times and help them to seek help. And I've seen it since with a young lad that had to finish with his career and was struggling a little bit, you know. And so I contacted the PFA for him, the Professional Footballers Association for him, and they were fabulous, got him help. And that was because of his injury. He couldn't play anymore.

14:07And he's still a young man. He still should be playing, but it finished his career. Dream shattered, basically. Absolutely, you know. and they are good dreams aren't they when you're dreaming of playing in the Premier League alright so you might not end up there but if it's not the Premier League you're playing the Championship and it's not there it's the first division if it's not there the second division you're still a professional footballer and I know that because I started in the fourth division and I always wanted to be better but I was bloody proud of where I was playing at Barnsley I was a professional footballer I love that because I think the mental health side of things that sort of man up that whole uh men don't show weakness to each other you must have come through that as a player and you are often referred to as a hard guy hard in terms of like you introduce yourself you know don't suffer any any if you like and and there's a respect that goes with that where um you can be yourself if you are prepared to be vulnerable uh you're not going to you know you can then actually turn that into a positive and i think that's a really key message to get across i was brought up that way in an area you had to be tough there's always somebody tougher than you and I certainly was brought up that in that intermediate league and how you had to do it and then when you're 18 playing in the fourth division against big ex-pros who've got the sleeves rolled up over their shoulders and they've got muscles in the spit and they're trying to knock seven bells out of you I'm all right with that I can cope with that I could fight with that but I have a real have a compassionate side of me as well that cares about other people and players and we've just heard one story come in and if somebody comes into a club and I welcome them in with open arms and I would look after them and make sure other people do so that's a more important side of me than that I'm not trying to be a tough guy because I'm not really but I can look after myself.

15:55Yes I get that. There's a difference I don't try and be tough I don't try and be the hard man certainly not in regular life but on a football pitch if you let people better you and you have to succumb to them you're going to get run all over the top of and I was brought up in an area you don't let that out no I mean a huge part of this revolves around leadership good leadership or the reverse of that which is also in the context of what we're talking about managing ego you have to have both I think in leadership the hard side the tough side you make the decisions but I think more importantly is the compassionate side that you care for your people who are working with and you look after them and you make sure that they are they are cared for yeah I love that I think it's again really important to share that because you've been led as a player you've then been the leader of your team as a player and then you've been the leader of the team as a coach what would you say the most valuable values of leadership to you I think that is caring for your staff, your players, making sure that they are okay and that they are happy doing what they're doing.

17:03You can't have the players happy all the time because you've 20-odd of them. You've only got 11 starters. So you have to look after the ones who are not playing more than the ones that are playing. You know, I grew up, my managers were Jim Eiley, Alan Clarke, but I had Norman Hunter as a real tough guy. What a lovely guy, what a compassionate guy. You lit up then when you were there, wasn't you? I loved him. I loved him and sadly we fell out when I left because he left me out of the team. Deservedly so, I know now, but when I was 23, 24, I'd played 270 games nearly on the bounce and I didn't agree with it.

17:39And so I went to Manchester City. We made up, but I loved him. He was a great guy for me. And I loved him because I'm a lead supporter. And then, of course, I then go to Manchester City. I've got Billy McNeil. And Billy McNeil was another tough centre-half. But what a compassionate side he had. A lovely family, his wife, all his kids. I knew them all. Just a lovely man. And yet, as hard as nails. You know, this is a guy that's raising the European Cup for Celtic. Was it 67? Was it anyway? And real tough guy but had this real compassionate side that cared for his players and all that. And then I get Jack Charlton, playing for Leeds, playing in the World Cup 66.

18:23Hard as nails but looked after people wonderfully well. It'd be brutal, you're not playing, you're out. But anybody had any problems, he looked after them and really cared for them. So, you know, I had good mentors for that. I had it growing up. I had it with my mum, my dad, my grandparents. But certainly I had good mentors in football. And those mentors and the values and everything you learnt from that translates into life as well, which goes back to these youngsters growing up that aren't in any way playing sport, haven't got that sort of discipline, if you like, and someone telling them you're not good enough.

19:02And then how do you deal with that? Do you actually then take that and better yourself? with great difficulty dealing with that I've had the job for years and years of the 16 year olds that come in as apprentices and then at 18 if they're not good enough you know, I have the job of telling them and of course it wasn't my decision totally, I'd be watching them and analysing them but we'd have it with the analysts, the assistant manager, the coaches, all the academy staff, we'd all sit down and talk about them and then it was my job to tell them and that's brutal You know, that's an awful job to be told.

19:37And we'd bring them, you try and do it one at a time, and then one would come in, and if you told him he's not staying, he'd be going out and going to tell his mates he's crying. And then the others are all sat there thinking, what are they going to be told? So then I tried telling the ones who weren't staying as a group, five or six, sorry lads, but I'm going to have to tell you as a group you're not staying, and then a couple might start crying and then you've upset everybody again. And it's an awful job. I don't know how people are doing it now, whether it's left to the academy, but that was one of the toughest jobs I had telling.

20:10I think it's great to hear you say that because you said that you're not afraid to call a spade a spade kind of scenario. And there's the infamous Roy Keane scenario, which you stood by a decision that you knew in your heart was the right thing at the time. And then some people could say that there's a brutal hard side to you, but actually this conversation is showing that, you know, if it was how you felt at the time, you've got to tell someone they're not good enough or make a decision, it's not that you're enjoying it. That's what felt like the right thing to do. It was a decision made as a collective by everybody who'd seen them for two years.

20:43But I'm the boss. I'm the guy that had to do the dirty job. No, I get it. Yeah. And I guess they expected it to come from me as well. I wouldn't expect the assistant manager or the other guys to be telling me because it was moving up into the first team squad, into the 18, 19. so that's the way it is and I accepted that as well it didn't sit easily with me let me put it that way No, again, important to share that you've achieved a lot of success throughout all your playing days management days and by default being able to decide what you choose to do each day which we're talking about off camera huge respect for that some days you're not quite sure what you're doing and so on there's a contentment there but just to unravel your thoughts on success how do you define it now people say to me you've been successful and then we've had some other managers on our podcast talk and i'm thinking you know roy hodgson five five titles five titles in a row with switzerland he goes and manages in is it intermilan i think it was and then he comes and manages england in that and the the stuff that they've done i've never i've i can't get to that level in terms of my succession.

21:57I've had a couple of promotions. I've managed in the World Cup. I played in the World Cup. That's unbelievable success for me as a kid who signed for Barnsley when I was stood outside waiting for the secretary to come and all my teachers telling me I wasn't good enough. I regard, yes, I've had a successful career. But I look at others and think, wow, you know, have I got anywhere near that? No, I haven't. But I'm content with what I've done. I don't look at other people and envy what they've done. No, not at all. I played in the World Cup. I managed in the World Cup. I played in the European Championships when there was only eight teams in it.

22:35Played for me country. I know it's me dad. I wasn't born in that, but me dad, we were known as half English, half Irish when we grew up. We went to school with all my mates with Irish families at a good Catholic school. So yeah, I look back on quite happily. Some things I look back on sadly, losing playoffs that still hurt me. I'll tell you the defeats, I can't remember all the wins. Is there one achievement? If I put you on the spot and said one thing that you've achieved that stands out, what would that be? As a manager, sort of going to the World Cup and then having a successful World Cup, having lost arguably our best player for whatever reason, which I'm not going to go into.

23:24And we didn't lose until we, you know, we drew the first game. We beat, I can't even remember who we've done it now, Saudi Arabia. We drew with Germany, who only conceded one goal, that was us. We drew with Spain and we lost on penalties. We missed a penalty in one of the games. and we'd only lost one game all the way through qualifying so I think that is my greatest success and then following Jack Charlton again in Ireland, my country to the World Cup despite all the other stuff that went on with it so my sadness for that is that the players who played in it don't get their recognition that they deserve for actually, we lost one game in qualifying and that was in Iran when we'd beaten them 2-0 in Ireland.

24:15We lost 1-0, 96 minutes. We still won on aggregate. And we'd all lose a game while we were playing. We lost on penalties in the last 16, was it? Yeah, last 16. Yeah, I've got really good fond memories of watching all that time. That was fabulous. Could have been better, but never mind. No, I know. There's still an element. the balance feels right where you can weigh up the fact that the boy from Barnsley went a long way with following a dream. Well, having played in one for Big Jack, for Jack Charlton, well for Ireland, but for Big Jack who got us there, who I loved dearly, who was fabulous with me, he played me and gave me the captaincy against everybody else who wanted anybody by Mick McCarthy playing in the team.

25:08you know it didn't matter who it was and he stuck by me so he saw something in me which you know I respect I respect that certainly yeah gave you the self and I think I think we repaired in between myself and Kevin Moore and playing at the back we were a decent partnership yeah we were having a nice chat before the camera started rolling we were filming the day before England playing the semi-final for the World Cup yeah and talking about Tougal's interview where he was saying that actually you know, he wasn't happy with the performance of the team. These are minutes after the game. And then you've got Bellingham who kind of comes out and says stuff that you were saying, oh, I shouldn't be saying that as the player.

25:48But it's all the emotion. He's almost defending his camaraderie, his comrades and so on. And I just want to go back to that sort of playing days for you, that maturity that comes out where you've got that perspective at the back. But the fact that in the moment, in the heat of the kind of 90 plus minutes or for them, even more it's just emotion being managed and how you deal with that as a player and learn from things you perhaps wish you hadn't said and so on and then as a manager where you're actually trying to manage those as a player I only got interviewed as a player believe me that was years ago there's so much media now so much media now what you have to do so let's you know Thomas Tuchel Tuchel whatever I would pronounce it I thought he came off and And I didn't think they did play well.

26:36I didn't think it was a great performance by them. But he accepted that they'd won. So they're through to the next round. But if he comes off and he's waxing lyrical and beating his chest how good they were, the first thing they'd all be saying is he wants to calm down. They've got to play in Argentina next. And they don't want to be telling them that. The journalist who I know, when he'd come on and said that, I bet his eyes lit up when he's coming to interview Jude Bellingham. and tell him what he said. When Jude Bellingham's just come off the pitch and your heart's still beating, you don't need that question at that time.

27:14And I only saw the bit where he said, whatever, whatever. But then he went on apparently to say, well, how would he know playing in 90 or 100 degrees heat? I think Thomas Tuchel will have enough about him to go in and say to him, well, you know, they discussed that. And the reasons why he said they hadn't played well, He'll explain that and he didn't think they did. But they won. Well done, lads. Congratulations. But I'm the manager here who's analysing it and probably telling the reasons is to just dampen the enthusiasm down. And, I mean, June Bellingham's omnipotent, isn't he? Can't be touched at the minute.

27:53He's on fire, isn't he? Yeah, but he still needs to be saying whatever. I think he's fine. But then going on to say about how would he know. Well, he would know Thomas Tuchel because he'll have done his studying and certainly on what it's like to play in all that heat and why he took him away to Florida to have the preparation in the heat. He'll have done everything. He's managed it all. He'll be well aware of how difficult it is. He might not have done it personally, but he'll still be well aware of it. So I don't think there'll be any problems between the two of them. I think you said storming a teacup, didn't you?