Peter Brodnicki | Extraordinary life Stories

0:13Peter, thank you for joining me. Hey, my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. Looking forward to this. Tell me, who is Peter Bordnicki? Who am I? I don't know. I'm just a very passionate person about everything I do and believe in. I guess everybody looking at me or knows me will just say, your two main passions in life are your business and thought of my football club. um you know um one i've followed for 50 years and the other one i've been running for 25 years so this year is literally my 50th and 25th anniversary of the two what have historically been the biggest things in my life um uh so yeah so those are probably the two things that uh dominate my life more than anything and have done over so many years i guess well the early influence for you would have been fulham i guess going to watch the team that you've become passionate supporter of I'm interested in kind of the why, if you like, behind starting the Mortgage Advice Bureau, which you started 25 years ago.

1:13Yeah, it's 2000. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about those sort of early influences, who and what outside of the football. Maybe there was an influence there that then led you starting that business. Yeah, I think, you know, my father ran his own business. He ran quite a specialist business, a pharmaceutical translation business. and um yeah so he was always you know and he got me interested in um he also got me interested in sort of shares at an early age I think sort of when I was like 13 14 he's sort of rather than getting the sort of presence you'd expect as a 13 14 year old you'd get some shares and some companies so you could follow them just small amounts so you could follow what they're doing so he got me sort of looking into business and how different businesses operate how different shares before which is a bit unusual at that age um were you allowed to trade to trade them were you kind of just observing and watching i could you know he asked me to observe and watch and then a few years later through him he allowed me to to trade them um so it was quite interesting because it sort of helped me learn more about different sectors different business i actually found that really interesting i never actually got on that well at school didn't see the relevance of it didn't do particularly well at school but that was something that actually really interested me and sort of got my passion going a little bit.

2:28And I've always wanted to get into the financial sector and I've always been in sort of financial services I guess. And in the 90s I set up my own business but through my partner I worked with Legal & General at the time and she set up the mortgage broking business which is registered under Legal & General. And I was always at some point going to go and leave the corporate world and move into into my own business you knew that from an early age yeah I knew I always wanted to do that but I wanted to gain the experience I enjoyed actually some areas you know sometimes you stay in for too long because you enjoy them too much you need to progress but uh but the plan was always there and then the mortgage advice bureau thing was interesting because mortgage advice bureau was actually a small firm in in Derbyshire and it was linked to legal in general as well and through my role in legal in general and met the guys there um they really inspired me they were they were top top top individuals you know very inspirational they always said i wish i wasn't born in derby i was in london i would have made a lot more money um so um and they tried to get me across to come in and you know because i came and did like a business consultancy for them what they should be doing um and they sort of then tried to get me across to come into the business um so and then to take it sort of to another level and sort of take it to an on a national basis so um i sort of told them what they should be doing and how the structure should have in the business and eventually they sort of convinced me to come across so I left legal in general and then actually backed my business into that business which my partner was running at the time and then sort of set up a new co they had a minority stake in that I had a majority stake in the new co I backed their original business into the new co my old business into the new co and that sort of evolved over the first few years and then I then I grew the business from there what was the why behind it I think the timing was, the timing of taking stepping out of corporate life and going into sort of right into my own business full time was, there was some regulatory change at the time.

4:26And a lot of the big insurers that were running the financial services networks pulled out. A lot of that was because the endowment policy and the time sort of had its day. And I guess that was a cash cow that sort of fed a lot of the industry. and I saw an opportunity really to step in with a new model at that point to replace the gap that they had left. I sort of created like a strategic partner model for sort of forward-thinking firms and specialist sectors. So it's real innovation, proper entrepreneurship? It didn't seem so at the time. No. It just seemed a sort of very obvious logical thing to do, which I guess, you know, if you're going to be called an entrepreneur, you don't really realise you are one.

5:04You just make decisions based on the right time and something that's even natural and obvious to you And that's what it was at the time. And what we did is rather become a business that was for everybody, we worked on certain niches first to become experts in it and then moved on to the next niche. So yes, it was a combination of setting up a new company, pulling these other two in and then moving to Derby because I was living in London and so spending most of my week in derby uh still travel up there sort of every single week that's 25 years now um so um uh so yeah that was quite difficult because i had some challenging times the year i moved up there my father died and the year after my father died my my my mom went into a nursing home with dementia so it was quite hard sort of i guess driving this new business being away keeping all of those things happening yeah so um so yeah it was quite a challenging time uh at that point i think to to get through those first few years yeah i mean yeah you know entrepreneurship is a is a major interest of mine i would love to know you know there's a personal distraction there if you like very much family come first and you're you're trying to set a business up that fast forward to now you know i believe it's 260 66 million of revenue you did in 2024 yeah and over you know a billion of sorry over 20 billion of uh loans that you've handled huge numbers so along the way from dealing with those early years, I'd love to know sort of the hardest challenges you've got.

6:34You've got perspective and maturity now to look back. Yeah. And there's two kind of questions there. You've got all sorts of external factors that come your way from the changes of government and waking up all in the morning and seeing legislative changes and think, how do I interpret that? And then as Peter, as the entrepreneur, as the person that's driving that company, bringing in the right team to support you, where have been the biggest challenges for you? Yeah, I think it's sort of, Um, it's having too many ideas and sort of trying to sort of curve those, um, and, um, and focus on, on, on the stepping stones you know, need to get to.

7:10Um, it was interesting actually, because in the industry, I was sort of, I built my business and my head right down at the time and sort of before the financial crisis, the industry sort of was quite high profile. There were a lot of events and awards and overseas trips and it was, it was quite high profile. It was, and I sort of put my head down through all of that. And I remember going to an awards ceremony once in 2008, which is a bit ironic because it was about the time everything sort of on that side sort of came to an end on the back of the financial crisis. And I sort of saw these people sort of winning awards and the person who invited me sort of said, well, you know, I said to them, well, why are these people winning awards?

7:48We're better than them. And they said, well, it's because you just put your head down and you don't come out. You don't get involved in our industry. you don't you're just focused on growing your business you weren't that wasn't a priority to you it wasn't you weren't shouting from the rooftops about it you know trying to make a small business look big i just wanted to sort of irony you only wanted to shout from the rooftops when i knew i'd got something to to talk about um so that's quite an interesting time and i was thinking okay so what do i need to do to it what's then and they said well you need to be on these panels you need to get involved in industry more and you know and support the wide industry so so i thought okay i'm going to do this you know which i don't really want to do because i've got the time to do it or the inclination I'm not that sociable really um so um so I sort of made it sort of my my mission to work out what I needed to do to to win these awards that's interesting because that's putting yourself out of your comfort zone you just you just almost awkwardly said I'm not that social but you chose to you knew it was I had to do it because yeah it was I don't think it was right early on I think a lot of people trying to raise their profile too early when they haven't got the substance and they get too taken over by that rather than focusing on their business but I did realise we're at a stage where we did need to step up to that to that next stage and if my wider ambitions were to be realised I needed to increase that awareness the brand awareness and everything else so that's what I did and you know um you know we just uh last year we clocked through 250 awards you know since 2010 so you know and it's pleasing because it's through you know it's through it's not just on mortgage performance but you know in diversity inclusion and charity stuff and various other things we do across the group so over the years that's evolved and we've been recognized you know from in a number of different aspects and you know when you're running a business that's quite a nice thing to get it is it's quite lonely at the top so it's and it's good for my team because it's acknowledgement of all the hard work they do and everything so it was quite interesting because it was a I don't want to do this stuff to right I'm going to work out and do it properly and if I'm going to spend time doing it I want to win some awards so um so yeah so that's how it went and um so that was just an example of that sort of change I guess in the business absolutely and 250 awards I mean is there one there or even a couple that stand out that you're most proud of.

9:54And that's a bit of a harsh question because it probably covers actual numbers, success, and then, like you mentioned, diversity and inclusion, which is a huge change you'll have seen in the last 25 years. There probably was no award for that until relatively recently. Where do you sit with that whole kind of I'm so glad we won that one? I think the first time you win any award in a new category, it's pleasing because it's acknowledgement that people see what you're doing, the efforts you're making. and I guess I've got to be a little bit selfish. There's only a handful of those that are personal awards.

10:25Most of those are company awards. So it is nice when you achieve the personal award, you know, for business leader or strategist of the year, wherever it might be. So those were quite nice because no one was tapping me on the head and said, well done. So that was quite nice. But generally, it was just great for the business and receiving that profile. So yeah, and sort of getting into new sectors that, again, we looked at, well, why are we winning awards in those areas? we're not good enough we need to focus more on those areas and not take it for granted and so in a way it sort of drove us to make sure you know that we were we're looking at all those niches and you mentioned the word loneliness there it's really interesting so that that that that kind of decision making ultimately that you are responsible for at the top is empowering but also at times is potentially intimidating even for someone like yourself that clearly i'd love to open that up you know and there must be times that stand out for you where you've almost had that whole like actually you can shut the door and you can have that moment to think what the hell do I do now but actually it's on me talk me through that yeah there are some of those but sort of but at the same time that sort of the the unknown is actually quite motivational as well you know um so uh I think probably the biggest one was actually around that same time the financial crisis in 2008 where sort of the remortgage market sort of fell apart completely you know any specialist type lending disappeared by the market pretty much disappeared housing market sort of dropped by 65 percent it's a scary time it was a really scary disruption and at that point i was just literally at that point i guess that um you know i was the year before was the first year we'd made any proper money because at that point i just reinvested everything into the business um so what do you do do you batten down hatches and actually the big part of I think the success we were starting to build there in the business was the people that were in the business that I brought on.

12:14Some of those people came, I brought into the business, not because I could afford it at the time, but they were reflective of where I wanted to take the business. So to cut all these people out and butted down the hatches for God knows how long was a tough call. So that was an interesting one because that was pretty scary. I put my life on hold, I sacrificed a lot, probably family, everything, you know, to do what I needed to do. So, but we made a decision in the end, well, I made a decision in the end, and that was that, look, you know, if the market's that bad, there's an opportunity here to really grab market share if we do the opposite to everybody else.

12:53And our model was more of a strategic partner model rather than sort of an aggregator style model. So we were about helping people grow. And so we were in a world where everybody's business had disappeared. So it wasn't about growth. It was about replacing what you've lost. The basic principle of the model was the same. so all i basically agreed on my team was that all the money we'd made the previous year was the only profit we did have is we will draw a line and spend that this year to try and turn the corner and justify the overheads we've got and therefore you know grow the business as strongly as we can in that market to justify the overheads in the team i had and that's what we did um and we're prepared to lose that amount that year no we didn't lose any we actually made a very small tiny teeny profit you'd take that yeah i'll take that would have taken that all day long and then And from there, we motored on.

13:39So that really was actually quite a, you know. Pivotal moment. It really was a pivotal moment because that's the point where you get that momentum and you stand out for the crowd. And suddenly, you know, from having very little profile a few years earlier, you know, everybody heard about MAV. You know, and then we started sort of getting, you know, after that, we were in our first acquisition. We started to get some interest in terms of being acquired ourselves, which was interesting. and the next pivotal moment I guess was do we do we sell the business um that didn't really sit well with me because I couldn't see where the value add of the the acquirers apart from paying money would be for my team and for the people that have trusted MAB with their businesses so um and also you know I'm a bit of a control freak so you know working for someone else didn't really appeal that much once you'd once you'd cross to the dark side it's very hard to come back um so i didn't really want to do that either so again this is decision making yeah the way you're making these decisions yeah and and you know so so we then i'd sort of i guess i always wanted going back to the earlier part of the story you know i always want i was fascinated in the stock market so that's my was my opportunity to look at could we go and list on the stock market so that's where we start started to look at that as an option and that was sort of you know that's something that would have fascinated me so to do so um yeah we we looked at all those options and and then made a decision and when i made the decision the market was flying there were a lot of ipos going on etc etc so it was 2014 yeah yeah it was 2014 so the process probably started in about march 2014 and then we sort of went to market in in october now between then and october the world had changed entirely and I think the stock market fell something like 1200 points in two days the week we were going to list and that was another sort of pivotal moment what do you do because the cost and the disruption to go through that process in your business you know just to get you to the position to do that was was huge and I couldn't afford to go through it again um so you know the question at that time is what do we still go for it and there were two other I I think listings that week, Virgin and Miller, Miller Homes, both far bigger than ours.

15:55And so, yeah, I made the decision in a taxi, I remember going to our sort of first investor meeting to sort of pitch MAB. And I said, no, we're going to still go for it. All our advisors said, pull out. And I said, well, you know, a bit like in 2008, if we do the opposite, we're going to stand out a bit. People are going to probably want to see us. There's a trend there for you, isn't there? Yeah, the diaries are empty. you know suddenly they're panicking about investments and everything else and this idiot turns up and wants to list his business so if nothing else they'll be intrigued so um so yes so we so we so we went for it and it was a very very very traumatic week pressure week seeing sort of 40 or plus 50 investors with this backdrop and you know share share still falling in value um and yeah so so we we got over the line just um i think it was a financial times i can't remember if it wasn't like now should do really should i um and it said because we were the only listing we actually got there which i never would have got featured in a million years otherwise and it said that peter brodnicki is uh is our genius or insane or something along those lines so i think probably slightly more insane so um so yeah so that was quite interesting yeah so it was sort of again it was one of those pivotal moments where it sounds like you think ahead though that is vision there there was a there was turmoil at that time but you're you're in it for the long you're in the long game so you're looking okay i'm not going to go through this again i'm doing it now yeah and then you know more recently obviously we've had covid we've had we've had so many other things you know that that have massively disrupted the sector i mean you know i mean so yeah i mean regulation can change but regulation is an interesting one because you know although it can be slightly misguided sometimes generally it's all for the benefit of the customer um and arguably you know the more regulation the harder it is for some others to to meet those requirements and hit those standards and actually we just want to keep raising the bar if regulation is put in the customer first it's our job to embrace that regulation better than anybody else um and obviously the more we do that and the less our you know our peers and competitors do then then you know that will create a challenge consolidate the industry increase the quality of the industry the quality of advice and everything else in the mortgage market so it's actually a good thing i don't it can be disruptive you know there's changes over The last 25 years have happened on numerous occasions and it brings its challenges.

18:10But generally, we're always in a slightly better position when it's introduced and maybe other people are, but we're already thinking that way. Yeah, I was going to say you're almost preempting. Is there anything, of course, you know, COVID and the sort of financial crisis, you know, there may have been signs and indicators, but they then happen very quickly and cause mass disruption. Yeah. Is there anything that has been a specific, almost niche to your business, you know, that has almost sort of caught you out or made you really have to think beyond what we've talked about? Yeah, I mean, COVID was a good example because, you know, the mortgage market shut for, depending on which part of the country, we're in for about four months.

18:43You can't legislate for that. You can't legislate for that. What do you do, right? So, you know, what we had to do was sort of pivot our resources to go, rather than talking to new customers, was to speak to existing customers because they would have been worried, concerned about what's happening and how does that impact them and everything else. So we just used that time to re-engage with customers and be there just to reassure them. And actually, from those reassurance conversations, we actually managed to do other areas of business with them, which was great. So, yeah, so that was the COVID piece was interesting.

19:14And then obviously that brought another set of challenges because everybody was working from home. And how do you bring them back in? And it's all well documented now what's happened. But one of the things we did very quickly was just to make sure people understood contractually. this is a temporary situation and we brought them back into the office as quickly as we could do because you know um to us that was a very important part of our culture um and what we did also after after covid was you know because we listened to with people working from home for so long and trying to understand what they liked about it compared to working in the office so that was another whole challenge we didn't expect because you know suddenly the working environment they were in was was probably highlighted it was no longer suitable because we that evolution that might have taken 20 years happening like a couple of months so um so we took that opportunity to listen to our staff work out what environment we needed to create for them to come back and and we learned from that working from home experience and then completely reinvested in our offices and completely refurb them redesigned them so depending on the types of people and the types of profile they had and the way they operate and work rather than being jobs it was more about the people because they will they will function different ways want to work different ways engage in different ways so we changed the working spaces within the business to allow for those types with introverts extroverts whatever types of personalities they were it wasn't about the job necessary they did but how do you get the best out of those people so there was a huge learning experience i guess on the back of covid which actually helped fast track us in terms of putting our staff first you know which you can't put the customer first until you put your staff first and get them more engaged so it was really a fascinating time for us actually so all these things we've learned stuff from i probably was too focused on on on business and i wasn't focused enough on the people in the business um so this was really quite a quite a key moment for us and we haven't looked back since then you know we're not perfect by the stretch of the imagination um but you know we're improving every single every single day yeah and i guess it's like anyway you got building blocks in the business at any one time yeah and you're focusing on revenue you're focusing on you know profits you're focusing on on different things but one of the one of the constant things clearly is yourself you know you mentioned yeah when we're talking about the 2014 um uh you know going through the whole process of listening um and you mentioned the word traumatic and so on i'll bring this back to you you know from starting the business to all the things you have to go through how have you looked after your own kind of mental and physical fitness if you like and how have you prioritized it and been able to sort of balance whilst always facing forwards and trying to scale the business i think the whole thing of mental well-being etc is you know it's now common language you know christ when i started the business and probably not that long ago you know you you never wanted to be signed off and put anything on your record of a doctor in case you weren't given a job so it's amazing how that has changed you know and that's obviously for the better um i guess from my my perspective it's you know you you handle things your own way and deal with things your own way and uh so um and blokes probably aren't very good at chatting about stuff anyway getting better i think we're doing it now right but i think 20 years ago You might have admitted that you'd pulled your calf playing football last night, but you wouldn't admit you're struggling with your mental health.

22:21Your marriage is struggling or you weren't feeling right. And maybe I'm not sure if I've got depression. That conversation is intensely now happening. Certainly not 15 years ago. No, and I guess I've just done what people used to do at that time, is just sort of kick themselves into gear. Because a bad day can turn into a bad two days. is about two days can turn into a bad week or a bad month or even a bad year. So to me, you've got to sometimes let yourself have a sulk and feel sorry for yourself, not that everybody else does. And then you just keep yourself back in. Always keep going. Always keep going.

23:02You allow yourself to do it, but I have a cut-off point. Yeah. In about 24 hours. But what about, there's plenty of coaching books that where successful CEOs, which you are, are either giving information or an author has collated all sorts of information where it's all about winning the morning, winning the day, running a marathon, reading a book. Never read a motivational book of any sort or any sort of how to run a business or how to motivate yourself. I follow my gut, what I feel I want to do. I don't follow what's in a book. And I've seen people that do that, read a book and then follow it.

23:37And I go, yeah, that work for that individual, you know, might not work for you. So you've got to find your own way in life, I guess. And I don't meditate and I don't do any, unbelievably don't do any exercise. Morning's my time. I'll get up really early. I'm in the office working from, you know, used to be four, probably now five-ish or 5.30. So you do value the morning, isn't it? So you're not interested in the exercise and the kind of, I think you say, meditation. There's not many people say, I'll go to the gym early before I go to work. Your tonic is work. You're stimulated. I don't need to invigorate myself.

24:08by going to the gym I invigorate myself by actually having some peace time in the morning before the world goes crazy and everybody wants a piece of me so I spend those three hours you know getting on top of what I'm doing my thinking time my planning and that's in the office that's not out out for a walk and getting thinking time you're in the office you're either in the office or I'm up early at home I'm mostly it's in the office um and I and that's the time I'm I put myself in control of what I'm doing. But it's my gym and people say, oh yeah, but you need to be healthy. But I get checked out for everything.

24:42You hear so many people now and more recently I've heard that as well with close friends that have been diagnosed with serious illnesses and stuff. And the one thing I do do is I check on absolutely everything. I get tested every year on just about everything to make sure that I know what's going on inside my body. That's the control. That's my control. Yeah, yeah. But that's not a bad thing. Well, it's not because, you know, if eventually there's something I need to change in my lifestyle and my results tell me I need to do that, that's exactly what I will do. But I want to know everything. I'm opposite to a lot of people.

25:12I want to know everything. And that includes what's going inside. And you can't just work off symptoms and doctors don't know all the answers. So, you know, to me, I'd always suggest everybody does that because it sort of, you know, does give you that. You know, life's too short. And, you know, I love working, but I want to know I've got plenty of time still to enjoy everything. I get that as well. Is there anything, you've built a business over 25 years doing numbers we talked about earlier. Is there anything you still want to achieve, any awards you still haven't won? Because that whole focus you've got, you've built this sort of empire, if you like, is there something missing that you'd really like to achieve?

25:50I think awards, ironically, they mean as much to me today as the first one did, whether it's a personal one or a company one or a new area we got rewarded in or one of our partner firms wins an award it's fantastic so I still get motivated by that and I'm you know I enter all of them I write a lot of them and I check every single one and you know I get interviewed for a lot of them I love it it's it's to me it's still my little motivation to keep going and fill that cupboard up a little bit more um so I like that so so the awards still got ambition still got yeah no I still get I still get excited as much about it as ever done and I think you know The other thing that sort of really drives me at the moment is that, you know, over the 25 years I've been running this business, you know, you try and aspire to be better than others in the industry and in a group.

26:37And to me, you always want to have someone to aim at and there to be a massive gap between you and the next person and put your foot down. But you're sort of restricted with what there are limits to what you can do. And of course, now we're moving into a world with we've always built our own technology. That's always been a very big part of what we do. And now obviously we're adding AI into that. And I think we're going to go through a phase over the next three or four years, which is not going to be about regulation as much as how the consumer is changing and how they're embracing technology, how we need to engage with them.

27:07And how much more we can learn about our customers and how we should engage them and when and in what way and with who and when should it be technology, when should it be human beings and everything else. So there's a real opportunity right now, and this is what really motivates me right now, is to completely take MAB and take it into the new world and understand the role of the advisor in that world. And because I think there's absolutely a hugely important role for the advisor, whatever technology may or may not be able to do is single people business. It's sort of our trust. But also we've got to digitize.

27:38We have to be a lot more efficient. We need to be able to predict what customers want, how they want to behave, how they behave and what they want. so there's to me suddenly in all these 25 years is the first time we're going to have so much information and so much data that gives us the the the control to be able to evolve our proposition further deliver a more personalized customer experience to be able to understand how you know where the threats and opportunities will come you know before we knew what the threat was i don't know the financial crisis had to deal with it today and that was the end of it well here we can sort of see what's happening was a lot of technology in our developments have happened in other sectors before financial services because it's so regulated so people stay out of that a little bit more it's a bit slower to respond so the nice thing is you've got that crystal ball of how consumers are behaving elsewhere in other sectors they're not going to suddenly change because it's a mortgage um so um yeah so so it's really exciting i think what we can do now so we had a capital market stay with our investors very recently and potential new investors said it will be listed for 10 years now this is what we've been building and this is what we're ready for now and this is why we think we can start to shape how the world's going to look in our sector um so that's my my current motivation yeah so um when are you going to step down do you know so i'm not stepping down this is this is like i've been waiting for this moment all my life yeah the most exciting time you're coming alive saying it i mean it's like 25 years of doing for a control thing this is the perfect time of the we're in because there is so much information so much data so much so much opportunity to make a real difference and to be stand out rather than just better um so um not saying we're going to achieve it but i'm on a mission and so is my team so uh so yeah it's exciting time yeah someone watching listening um what advice would you give to them with all that again maturity and perspective that you've got um

29:28i think the advice i'll give to people is you know a few people have asked me this over the years and initially when you sort of get told you're an entrepreneur or you're you know you're successful advisory to give you don't sort of as I said earlier you don't really realize what you're doing differently but as I thought about it more the biggest thing I see because I there are people way more intelligent than me a lot of my friends are my colleagues aren't everybody else and I come across a lot of people that sort of know what the answer is but they're just not prepared to make that final decision and commit to it um and i and i think the biggest strength i guess i've got there's a lot of weaknesses but a lot of strength biggest strength i've got is um that i can make decisions and i'm not frightened of making decisions um but then if you make lots of decisions you're going to get a lot wrong and if you get a lot wrong you've got to be very quickly prepared to u-turn on those decisions uh rather than sit there trying to justify them that you were right all the time and get let pride get in the way so you can't do one without doing the other you've got to make low decisions and you've got to u-turn quickly if they're wrong because they won't all be right and that's probably i've seen people not succeed and i've seen them and i know they're capable of doing i don't know they've got that but they haven't been able to make those decisions and you do have to gamble a bit i mean you know ultimately they've got to be calculated gambles but the point is you know if you want to achieve something extraordinary in your life you do have to take risks it's as simple as that and if you're not a risk taker then you know that's a problem but then of course there's other things people have to consider you know I'm you know you know my partner currently has a lovely girl and been together a while now but I've never had a kind of my own and I think to a large degree I sacrificed that to put my business first and I don't really I do what would I've taken some of those risks as readily as I did if I had you know a family at home that I had to put first to look after um I don't know not well not wasn't an that position but i didn't put myself in that position um so um so you know that there are obviously very strong legitimate reasons why people don't make certain decisions even though you know they they know what the answer is but also timing life's everything as well you know you can have the right answer but just the time is wrong you know and uh there's this little difference between being an entrepreneur and and someone who's you know is not viewed as well and i can relate to that everything you've said actually but i think whether it's procrastination through fear, through lack of confidence.

31:58You know, the reality is I think each of the advice there is just make sure you make a decision. Not making one could actually be far worse. And at least then you're moving, right? Back to where you sort of, if you're moving and then you can see that's the wrong decision, deal with it and spin round. Yeah, and I think as I built my team and I've got such a strong team around me now, you know, the stronger the team around you, the more confidence you have as well. And the more, you know, the better decisions probably, the more ballsy decisions you can make because once you make a decision someone's got to do the hard work around it to deliver it once you come up the decision someone else has got to deliver it so you've got to have confidence in your team and the team is everything the people are everything I love that that's a brilliant way to end thank you cheers cheers

33:05We'll see you next time.